Smith Springs, Nashville (Part I)

Smith Springs, Nashville (Part I)

Anonymous
Anonymous

July 17th, 2003, 5:55 pm #1

Smith Springs church of Christ Nashville

At least 2 elders have begun a extensive ministry
designed to defend Calvinism, which they call the
doctrines of grace. It has been promoted congregationally, as well as by radio, audio tapes, regular classes at a local denominational church,and the web (at engedi.org )

The mailing address for this organization (Blair Rd.in
LaVergne Tenn.) is also the home address for one of
these elders. One of their chief spokesmen, a former
pulpit minister a Smith Springs, is also a history
professor at Lipscomb University, Dr David Lawrence.
You are challenged to investigate this ministry and
see if you can tell any difference in their message
and the complete TULIP of Calvinism.

For a quick overview go to
http://www.engedi.org/devo/11.04.02
" " " " " /12.30.02
" " " " " /01.20.03
" " " " " /03.17.03
Last edited by Donnie.Cruz on October 18th, 2008, 5:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
Quote
Share

Kenneth Sublett
Kenneth Sublett

July 18th, 2003, 1:19 pm #2

God picked Abraham for the purpose of being a blessing to ALL NATIONS. By going to Egypt the Israelites fell under the idolatry of the nations. Therefore, rather than being a blessing the Jews thought of themselves as PREDESTINATED. This meant, of course, that the NATIONS were NOT predestinated. This was not theology but arrogance. This was the MARK of their failure. Paul does not speak of the Gentiles as "dogs" but the victims of Jewish PREDESTINATION.

Paul shows the Gentiles who might feel INFERIOR that it was ALWAYS God's plan that the Jew and Gentile be one body. That is the MYSTERY of God's PRE-PLANNING. Because there was no MAN who could intercede God sent His RIGHT ARM as LORD to carry out His etrnal PLAN or predestinated purpose. When there is ONE BODY there will be ONE SPIRIT or the spirit of UNITY or ONENESS.

All people were God's people: the Jews were chosen for a SPECIAL PURPOSE and utterly failed because they substituted FAITH in their system for OBEDIENCE to the Word of God.

--Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the Lord JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation. Isaiah 12:2
----Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation. Isaiah 12:3
------And in that day shall ye say, Praise the Lord, CALL upon his NAME, declare his doings among the PEOPLE, make mention that his name is exalted. Isaiah 12:4

--For the kingdom is the Lords: and he is the governor among the NATIONS. Psa 22:28

Jesus said that the Great Commission was to EVERY CREATURE because it is clear that God predestinated the Gentiles to be part of the ONE BODY having ONE SPIRIT.

--And he said unto them, TO ye into all the WORLD, and preach the gospel to EVERY creature. Mark 16:15 (creature does not mean Jews)

THERE IS NO LONGER JEW AND GENTILE SO SALVATION IS NOT CONDITIONED BY RACE BUT:

----HE that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but HE that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:16

The DIRECT STATEMENT of Jesus shows that the SAME GOSPEL was to be preached to ALL CREATURES.

--But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be WITNESSES unto me both
----in Jerusalem, and
----in all Judaea, and
----in Samaria, and
----unto the UTTERMOST (Gentiles) part of the earth. Ac.1:8

IN EPHESIANS ONE

--Having made known unto us the MYSTERY of his WILL, according to his GOOD pleasure which he hath PURPOSED in himself: Eph 1:9

NO, GOD'S GOOD PLEASURE IS NOT TO PREDESTINATE LITTLE BABIES TO HELL TO PROVE HOW POWERFUL HE IS.

----"God has told us his SECRET reason for sending Christ, a plan he decided on in MERCY long ago; Eph 1:9LIV

Contrary to the eternal superiority of the Jews, God ALWAYS intended them to be reconciled to the GENTILES. Only the SPIRIT of Christ in dying for ALL MANKIND had the power to persuade even Jewish apostles:

WHAT IS THAT PREDESTINATED MYSTERY?

--THAT in the DISPENSATION of the FULLNESS of times he might GATHER TOGETHER in ONE all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: Eph 1:10
----In whom ALSO WE have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: Eph 1:11

IN EPHESIANS CHAPTER TWO The Jews still made the Gentiles aliens and strangers but Paul proved that God's predestinated plan was for ONE BODY. The view of the Jews as superior and that of the Gentiles as inferior and without hope was NOT in God's Mind but in the minds of the two factions.

--That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: Eph 2:12
----But NOW, in Christ Jesus, ye who sometimes were far off (Gentiles) are made NIGH by the blood of Christ. Eph 2:13
------For he is our PEACE, who hath made both ONE, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Eph 2:14
--------Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain ONE NEW MAN, so making peace; Eph 2:15

--And that he might reconcile both unto God in ONE BODY by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: Eph 2:16
----And came and preached peace to you (Ephesians) which were AFAR OFF, and to them that were NIGH (Jews). Eph 2:17
-----For through him we BOTH have access by ONE SPIRIT unto the Father. Eph 2:18

You cannot miss the fact that Paul did not speak of THE HOLY SPIRIT as a TRITHEIST person (a heresy) but the ONENESS spirit which is brought to the ONENESS BODY by the death of Christ. When Paul asked the name of this Spirit Lord, the answer was, "I AM JESUS OF NAZARETH." God's invitation is to WHOSOEVER WILL and not those whom I have already REDESTINATED so that the invitation is a cruel mocker.

Our problem is that we don't read the REST OF THE STORY.

Ken Sublett
Quote
Share

Kenneth Sublett
Kenneth Sublett

July 24th, 2003, 2:07 pm #3

Smith Springs church of Christ Nashville

At least 2 elders have begun a extensive ministry
designed to defend Calvinism, which they call the
doctrines of grace. It has been promoted congregationally, as well as by radio, audio tapes, regular classes at a local denominational church,and the web (at engedi.org )

The mailing address for this organization (Blair Rd.in
LaVergne Tenn.) is also the home address for one of
these elders. One of their chief spokesmen, a former
pulpit minister a Smith Springs, is also a history
professor at Lipscomb University, Dr David Lawrence.
You are challenged to investigate this ministry and
see if you can tell any difference in their message
and the complete TULIP of Calvinism.

For a quick overview go to
http://www.engedi.org/devo/11.04.02
" " " " " /12.30.02
" " " " " /01.20.03
" " " " " /03.17.03
--"Elect according to the FOREKNOWLEDGE of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. 1 Pet 1:2

God elected because He FOREKNEW but He did not pull the strings. To know before does PREPLANS or pre-invites but does not RESTRICT FREE WILL. What God KNEW he foreknow: Know is:

--Proginsko (g4267) prog-in-oce'-ko; from 4253 and 1097; to KNOW BEFOREHAND, i.e. foresee: - foreknow (ordain), know (before).

People FORE knew Paul but they did not predestinate him:

----Which KNEW me from the BEGINNING, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee. Ac.26:5

"Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye KNOW these things BEFORE, beware lest ye also,

-----being led away with the error of the wicked, FALL FROM your own stedfastness. 2Pe.3:17

Peter understood that God FOREKNEW that people would be saved at the time and place of baptism:

--The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us

----(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer (request for) of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 1 Peter 3:21

And Paul understood that baptism was an option:

--Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Heb.10:22

We become the elect when we become children:

--THE elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth; 2 John 1:1

----For the truths sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever. 2 John 1:2

------I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father. 2 John 1:4

GOD PREDESTINATED THAT "ALL" WOULD BE DECLARED SINNERS. This gets any trust in the LAW or of the Jew's ARROGANCE that they were PREDESTINATED:

Does God MAKE both Jew and Gentile SINNERS?" No, He KNEW that all had sinned and come short of the PRE-PLAN for all people.

---But the scripture hath CONCLUDED ALL under sin, that the promise by FAITH of JESUS Christ might be given to them THAT BELIEVE. Gal 3:22

---FOR ye are ALL the children of God BY FAITH in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:26

---FOR as MANY of you as have been BAPTIZED into Christ have put on Christ. Gal 3:27

What is that PREDESTINED plan? None are justified by keeping the LAW OF MOSES. IN Jesus Christ, BOTH Jew and Gentile are One Body. The PREDESTINATED PLAN was made by the Spirit of Christ to Abraham:

--There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are ALL ONE in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:28

----And if ye be Christs, then are ye Abrahams seed, and heirs according to the PROMISE. Gal 3:29

Did God's PROMISE cause all to be ELECTED? No, ALL receive the PRE-promise who are baptized into Christ. God's promise is God's pre-destined will for everyone.

--Epaggelia (g1860) ep-ang-el-ee'-ah; from 1861; an announcement (for information, assent or PLEDGE; espec. a divine assurance of good): - message, promise.

----Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the PROMISE might be sure to all the seed; NOT to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the FAITH of Abraham; who is the FATHER of us all, Ro.4:16

Remember that Abraham was NOT a Jew.

Abraham lived BEFORE the Law of Moses and therefore was justified WITHOUT THE LAW. However, God says that Abraham was justified BY FAITH when he kept God's commandments.

--And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; Gen 26:4

----BECAUSE that Abraham OBEYED my voice, and kept my CHARGES, my COMMANDMENTS, my STATUTES, and my LAWS. Gen 26:5

We will post a fuller study later at this page:

http://www.piney.com/Engedi-Elect.html

Ken Sublett
Quote
Share

Kenneth Sublett
Kenneth Sublett

July 24th, 2003, 3:40 pm #4

Smith Springs church of Christ Nashville

At least 2 elders have begun a extensive ministry
designed to defend Calvinism, which they call the
doctrines of grace. It has been promoted congregationally, as well as by radio, audio tapes, regular classes at a local denominational church,and the web (at engedi.org )

The mailing address for this organization (Blair Rd.in
LaVergne Tenn.) is also the home address for one of
these elders. One of their chief spokesmen, a former
pulpit minister a Smith Springs, is also a history
professor at Lipscomb University, Dr David Lawrence.
You are challenged to investigate this ministry and
see if you can tell any difference in their message
and the complete TULIP of Calvinism.

For a quick overview go to
http://www.engedi.org/devo/11.04.02
" " " " " /12.30.02
" " " " " /01.20.03
" " " " " /03.17.03
Davad Lawrence: "No, what Peter is saying is that the mighty, decretive will of God has ruled and ordained that none of His elect, his precious chosen ones, his beloved children through Christ, none of them shall perish, but that all of them, all of us, shall come to repentance. We must never forget that repentance is itself a gift from God (Acts 11:18, 2 Tim. 2:25), and God will use this gift of His grace to bring all His children to repentance.

http://www.engedi.org/devo/10.28.02.html

OUR RESPONSE

Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Acts 11:16
----Forasmuch then as God gave them the LIKE GIFT as he did unto us,
----who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ;
-----what was I, that I could withstand God? Acts 11:17

The only thing God GAVE was their speaking in tongues to CONVINCE the Jews:

Peter has not yet told Cornelius what he MUST do. The task here is that PETER was told to preach the Gospel to the Gentiles because that was always GOD'S PLAN. However, now, the GIFT convinces Peter that he COULD NOT withstand God's will that Gentiles also could be baptized.

--When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying,
-----THEN hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life. Acts 11:18

They didn't see Cornelius as PREDESTINATED to repent. Rather, the proof was that God's predestination was that both Jew and Gentile be one body. Cornelius was a God Fearer or worshiped like the Jews. He needed no repented but the GENTILE NATIONS needed to repent.

God's GRANTING repentance means exactly what "He granted to us the FREEDOM OF SPEECH."

---Didomi (g1325) did'-o-mee; a prol. form of a prim. verb (which is used as an altern. in most of the tenses); to give (used in a very wide application, prop. or by impl., lit. or fig.; greatly modified by the connection): - adventure, bestow, bring forth, commit, deliver (up), give, grant, hinder, make, minister, number, offer, have power, put, receive, set, shew, smith (/ with the hand), strike (/ with the palm of the hand), suffer, take, utter, yield.

--Or: When the others heard this, all their objections were answered and they began praising God! "Yes," they said, "God has given to the Gentiles, too, the privilege of turning to him and receiving eternal life!" Acts 11:18LIV

Peter didn't know that the people on the day of Pentecost HAD NO CHOICE. His response is quite identical to the Great Commission of Jesus:

--Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Acts 2:37

-----Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38

The Great Commission GRANTED salvation but not unconditionally: those who BELIEVE and are BAPTIZED shall be saved. The First Ammendment GRANTS us the right to speak: it does not FORCE us to speak. Being of age GRANTS us the right to vote: it does not FORCE us to vote.

David Lawrence: We must never forget that repentance is itself a gift from God (Acts 11:18, 2 Tim. 2:25), and God will use this gift of His grace to bring all His children to repentance.

But, Paul made their repentance DEPEND on how the Gospel which 'grants' is presented to the unbeliever:

--But FOOLISH and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do GENDER STRIFES. 2 Tim 2:23

--And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be GENTLE unto all men, apt to TEACH, patient; 2 Tim 2:24

--In meekness INSTRUCTING those that OPPOSE themselves;

--if God PERADVENTURE will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 2 Tim 2:25

------Tacha (g5029) takh'-ah; as if neut. plur. of 5036 (adv.); shortly, i.e. (fig.) POSSIBLY: - peradventure (-haps).

---Be humble when you are trying to teach those who are mixed up concerning the truth. For if you talk meekly and courteously to them, they are more likely, with GOD'S HELP help, to turn away from their WRONG IDEAS and believe what is true. 2 Tim 2:25LIV

--And that they MAY recover THEMSELVES out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him AT HIS WILL. 2 Tim 2:26

Satan also has his PREDESTINATED WILL but we are not CAPTIVES without our own will. In the same way, each individual may or may not exercise their free will and come to REPENTANCE which only God can grant. By analogy, only God can GRANT forgivene of sins, but God does not PREDESTINATE US to obey His plan for our lives.

Ken
Quote
Share

Kenneth Sublett
Kenneth Sublett

July 26th, 2003, 12:53 am #5

Smith Springs church of Christ Nashville

At least 2 elders have begun a extensive ministry
designed to defend Calvinism, which they call the
doctrines of grace. It has been promoted congregationally, as well as by radio, audio tapes, regular classes at a local denominational church,and the web (at engedi.org )

The mailing address for this organization (Blair Rd.in
LaVergne Tenn.) is also the home address for one of
these elders. One of their chief spokesmen, a former
pulpit minister a Smith Springs, is also a history
professor at Lipscomb University, Dr David Lawrence.
You are challenged to investigate this ministry and
see if you can tell any difference in their message
and the complete TULIP of Calvinism.

For a quick overview go to
http://www.engedi.org/devo/11.04.02
" " " " " /12.30.02
" " " " " /01.20.03
" " " " " /03.17.03
Thanks for the links. I am reading what I can find and am surprized at how weak the proof-texting for predestination is. The context will not find a single bit of evidence that God CREATES certain individuals to either be saved or sent to hell.

People who claim an intimate relationship with the "holy spirit person" invented only recently and those who claim to be predestinated are victims of the Jewish arrogance.

The Jews were ARROGANT: they believed they were predestinated. The result was that they became evil and claimed that IF the Gentiles could be saved then GOD and HIS WORD had failed. Paul disputed that in Romans 8 and began a "synagogue sermon" to the Jews:

--Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Rom 9:4

-- Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. Rom 9:5

-- Not as though the WORD of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Rom 9:6

-- Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In ISAAC shall thy SEED be called. Rom 9:7

-- That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are COUNTED for the seed. Rom 9:8

This is because the overwhelming majority of Israelites MARRED in God's hand first at Mount Sinai where they rose up to play in MUSICAL IDOLATRY. God turned them over to worship the STARRY HOST. When they demanded a king LIKE THE NATION God knew that they wanted to WORSHIP LIKE THE NATIONS.

-- What if God, willing to shew his WRATH, and to make his power known, ENDURED with much longsuffering the VESSELS of WRATH fitted to destruction: Rom 9:22

---- And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the VESSELS of MERCY, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Rom 9:23

------ Even US, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the GENTILES? Rom 9:24

God's PREDESTINATED PLAN was to make the remnant Jews and Gentiles into ONE body. God never PREDESTINATED a single infant--not an inch long--to burn in hell. Here is what Paul saw. The MARRED VESSELS trusted in their own PREDESTINATION or superiority as well as the Law which had been added BECAUSE OF THEIR TRANSGRESSION.

-- Wherefore? Because they SOUGHT it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; Rom 9:32

-- As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Rom 9:33

Paul referred them to Jeremiah 18 to explain predestination.

--Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Rom 9:20

----Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto HONOUR, and another unto DISHONOUR? Rom 9:21

The Potter takes a batch of clay. He never sets out to make a vessel just to "burn it" in hell forever and forever.His predestination is that the clay will be a prize "Ming vase." The clay, without any influence from the potter, mars because of some flaw.The potter changes his Pre- or first goal to another which fits the "clay"

-- Then I went down to the potters house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. Jer 18:3

-- -- And the vessel that he made of clay was MARRED in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it. Jer 18: 4

The potter DID NOT MAR the clay INTENTIONALLY. The defect was in the clay and it would not be conformed to the potter's hand. However, the Potter did not BURN the vessel but turned it into something more utilitarian.

-- Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying, Jer 18: 5

---- O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the Lord. Behold, as the clay is in the potters hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel. Jer 18: 6

-- At what instant I shall speak concerning a NATION, and concerning a KINGDOM, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; Jer 18:7

-- IF that nation, against whom I have pronounced, TURN from their EVIL, I will REPENT of the evil that I thought to do unto them. Jer 18:8

Therefore, the predestination Paul spoke about was God's PRE PLAN. Those who refused to obey God were devoted to very common purposes. Those who proved to be HARDENED, the Potter broke into pieces and threw out.

However, in 2 Cor 3 Paul speaks of these vessels which had hardened even in Egypt but forcefully with their musical idolatry at Mount Sinai. He told them that they had a veil over their eyes and ears. However, this whole BATCH could repent and TURN TO CHRIST instead of rituals and suddenly SEE Christ the Holy Spirit in His Word.

The Jews were thinking of NATIONAL PREDESTINATION and Paul used Jeremiah and the Potter to speak of NATIONAL PREDESTINATION. God never FORMED a human being just to smash him and burn him in hell. Neither did He ever FORM a human being just to save him. God picked certain people to carry out His will but we have no evidence that even Pharaoh was designed for HELL.

Ken Sublett
Quote
Share

Kenneth Sublett
Kenneth Sublett

July 27th, 2003, 9:00 pm #6

Smith Springs church of Christ Nashville

At least 2 elders have begun a extensive ministry
designed to defend Calvinism, which they call the
doctrines of grace. It has been promoted congregationally, as well as by radio, audio tapes, regular classes at a local denominational church,and the web (at engedi.org )

The mailing address for this organization (Blair Rd.in
LaVergne Tenn.) is also the home address for one of
these elders. One of their chief spokesmen, a former
pulpit minister a Smith Springs, is also a history
professor at Lipscomb University, Dr David Lawrence.
You are challenged to investigate this ministry and
see if you can tell any difference in their message
and the complete TULIP of Calvinism.

For a quick overview go to
http://www.engedi.org/devo/11.04.02
" " " " " /12.30.02
" " " " " /01.20.03
" " " " " /03.17.03
I have posted a fuller review of the Calvinism which seems to exude from the Lipscomb crowd.

http://www.piney.com/Predestination-I-Lawrence.html

David Lawrence is ready to reject the clear statements made by Peter that God's PREDESTINATED will is that everyone might repent. He rejects the same Peter because he used the word ELECT earlier.

But, scholars particularly, seem cursed with the inability to read Scripture or history. Here is what Peter said:

. PETER, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered thoughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 1 Peter 1:1

. ELECT according to the FOREKNOWLEDGE of God the Father,

But HOW are they ELECTED?

. through SANCTIFICATION of the SPIRIT,

. unto OBEDIENCE and SPRINKLING of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. 1 Pet 1:2

Believing in PREDESTINATION allows Clvinists to believe that FAITH ONLY is proof of their ELECTION and therefore repudiate baptism and therefore, like the Jews, fail to give the glory to God and in effect, call Him a liar.

The WORD of Christ is the SEED. When it touches the human spirit it germinates and produce obedience and the sprinkling of the blood. That initial pricking of the Spirit or Word moves us toward BIRTH. To Paul this meant:

. Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith,

. having our hearts sprinkled FROM an evil CONSCIENCE,

. and our BODIES WASHED with pure water. Heb.10:22

Those washed by water and the Word are children of God. Those baptized are ADDED to the body or church of Christ. Therefore, John wrote:

. We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.1 JOHN 5:18

. And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
1 JOHN 5:19

. And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath GIVEN us an UNDERSTANDING, that we may know him that is true,
. and we are IN him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. 1 JOHN 5:20

. Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
1 JOHN 5:21

. THE elder unto the ELECT LADY and her CHILDREN, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth; 2 JOHN 1:1

Those who PERMIT Christ to give them A holy spirit or a clear conscience at the time and place of Baptism are added or ELECTED which means SELECTED to be added to the body or church of Christ. There is NO HINT that individuals are ELECTED to personal salvation or damnation.

That is a LIE which defines the Jews in Rome. Their belief in JEWISH PREDESTINATION led to predestinated evil and arrogance.

Ken Sublett
Quote
Share

Anonymous
Anonymous

July 28th, 2003, 2:44 pm #7

I want to thank you...that was very well said. (or actually very well quoted from the bible),
Quote
Share

Anonymous
Anonymous

July 29th, 2003, 5:21 pm #8

Having attended Smith Springs previously for 13 years,It is so sad to have it berated on this evil site. The elders in question are two of the most Godly men I have ever known, one of which I have known for 25 years. Once one of the leaders in the Nashville area, Smith Springs has been destroyed by people like the one who posted this topic.
Quote
Share

Kenneth Sublett
Kenneth Sublett

July 29th, 2003, 6:39 pm #9

Beginning in the garden of Eden, that has been called the guilt clause. I like one of the many invented by Abraham Lincoln.

"There were those saying that they could "not abide the election of a Republican President." In which event they would destroy the Union.

...."And then, you say, the great crime of having destroyed it will be upon us!

....That is cool.

"A highwayman holds a pistol to my ear, and mutters through his teeth,

...."Stand and deliver, or I shall kill you,
and then you will be a MURDERER." Abraham Lincoln, Frost, Vol. 1, p. 274

A rich man does wrong, and he even adds reproaches; a poor man suffers wrong, and he must add apologies Ecclesu 13:3.

Martin Luther:

5. The best rule to follow in such matters is the rule of love. You should hold the same attitude toward these two classes that you would toward a wolf and a sheep.

."Suppose a wolf were to wound ALMOST FATALLY a sheep,
and you were to proceed with RAGE against the SHEEP,
declaring it to be wrong in being wounded, that it should be sound;

.....and you were violently to compel it to follow the other sheep to the pasture and to the fold, giving it no special care;

.....would not all men declare you inconsiderate?

"The sheep might well say: "Certainly it is wrong for me to be wounded, and unquestionably I OUGHT to be sound;

..."but direct your anger toward the INFLICTER of my wounds, and assist in my recovery."

..."So should these Romans have done and have faithfully REPELLED the WOLF-like teachers.

So, which came first: the DESTRUCTIVE DOGMA OF PREDESTINATION and ETERNAL SECURITY (Calvinism) which INFLICTED the wounds of the SHEEP; or the FLIGHT of the little LAMBS being MOLLESTED by the wolves?

The sincerity ploy counts for nothing: what do you say of the heresy which destroys whole churches proving that it is NOT from the Bible? Being a "scholar" in my research almost guarantees that the FALSE DOGMA comes from quotes from quotes from quotes and NOT from the Bible.

God NEVER created an infant "not an inch long" just so He could burn MOST of His creation to prove how MIGHTY He is. This sounds like some child in a sand box who smashes his sand castle to prove that He is superior to his own creation.

It is not evil to test the spirits and warn that the boast is that the WOLF is going to teach his false dogma to his students and sphere of influence. If you saw an adult ESCAPING LEGALISM and bashing in heads like false teachers bash in souls would you say: "Hay, he must be sincere or he would not be so COCKED and AIMED at the children of SUPPORTERS who DO NOT and will never agree with what Calvin admitted "gags me." Don't parents and "old widows's" children being seduced out their heritage have a right to know the "shady side" of most "once-christian" colleges?

There are NO PREDESTINATED TO HEAVEN Jews and there are NO PREDESTINATED Gentiles to hell. Therefore, Paul was hated and destroyed by Jews because he told them that ALL are sinners and there is NO MERIT in either Jew or Gentile to cause them to be acceptable to God.

Therefore, the PREDESTINATED targets are not INDIVIDUALS selected for hell from eternity past. Rather, God's PRE-PLAN even to Abraham was that His family should be a BLESSING to the NATIONS or GENTILES.

God is characterized by LOVE, JUSTICE AND MERCY and NOT by a worse-than Count Dracula lust to destroy his subjects.

Maybe someone who FLED will tell us why they fled. Was it because they were evil or because Satan LUSTS to get into the midst of successful churches: he will get ALL of the big ones. God never offered any protection to temples for those who had repudiated His rule over them where NO Godly king manufactures citizens just to destroy them.

Please respond to our REQUESTED reviews but don't destroy the chapter while dragging a proof-text out by its roots.

I am just now posting a review of Galatians where Paul clearly defines the PREDESTINATED ones.

http://www.piney.com/Engedi-Galatians.html

Ken
Quote
Share

GEM
GEM

July 29th, 2003, 7:40 pm #10

Having attended Smith Springs previously for 13 years,It is so sad to have it berated on this evil site. The elders in question are two of the most Godly men I have ever known, one of which I have known for 25 years. Once one of the leaders in the Nashville area, Smith Springs has been destroyed by people like the one who posted this topic.
I never cease to be amazed at the confusion that has taken over and weakened so many in a once strong and respected brotherhood. The destruction we see happening is directly propartional to the "lack of knowledge" displayed. Mr. Sublett is doing an excellent job explaining the real substance of the situation as it occurs. It would be a great day indeed to see the various sides on all of these many issues come together and debate in the halls of Lipscomb, Harding, Abilene, Oklahoma, Pepperdine, and so on. Oh well, so much for my feeble ramblings. By the way, can anyone tell me why these things aren't being debated by Shelly, Lucado, Flatt, Lawrence, Beam, Anderson, and so on. I thought they were supposed to be the tops academically and so forth. Geniuses!!! Oh well...

GEM
Quote
Share