Should Christians become involved in politics?

Should Christians become involved in politics?

Joined: February 11th, 2016, 11:16 pm

December 10th, 2016, 6:01 pm #1

I read the following quote in the Dec. 2016 issue of "Seek The Old Paths"

"The Separation of Church and State ruling (in my view a total miscarriage of justice) by the United States Supreme Court some forty years ago has given way to enactments that are contrary to sound doctrine. by Denver Thomas."

Obviously I was not aware that we had a state religion in the US. Wasn't the country founded on freedom of religion? Which brings me to the topic of discussion. I believe the framers of the constitution did base the laws on Christian principles. Should individual Christians run for political office? I was taught we are in the world but not of the world, and whatever type persecution came we hold on to our faith in Jesus Christ, and spread the gospel.

Scripture made a great post in another thread that I will paraphrase...any system of government without putting The Lord first will inevitably fail.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

December 10th, 2016, 10:20 pm #2

Being a Christian and a Politician might be pretty hard for most people. However, we always need a Caesar in charge.

Those who were thought to be excludes this year understand that sometimes we need to get involved as the Prophets spoke against the King, Priests and Levites.

The Jews were abandoned to a Civil-Military-Clergy complex. However the "laos" or laity or the domos as the house or the spiritual covenant is defines as exclusive of the Priests and Levites.

The American State colludes with the religious community which helps enforce civil society. When the pseudo-Christian clergy tries to silence the lambs we need to bring out that rod of iron. You will notice that the attack upon many groups including the internal attack against the historic Church of Christ coincides with the brutal assault upon civil liberties. The switch to Community Church or the Family of God is defined in terms of COMMUNE.

Rubel Shelly The Jesus Proposal

http://www.piney.com/Jesus.Proposal.Book.html

Our proposal to focus on Jesus means that Scripture is NO LONGER a set of proof-texts or a collection of facts or God's rulebook for human behavior. Scripture is the unfolding story of God acting both to create and to re-create. It is not an easy book to understand.

It was NEVER intended as a document to [p. 115] be INDIVIDUALLY read and interpreted--a sort of correspondence course in salvation.

Prior to the invention of the printing press, access to the content of Scripture was oral. For thousands of years it could only be heard and interpreted in the context of community.

Yes, INDIVIDUALS could comment on Scripture, but those comments were always for the LARGER hearing of the community. Only after there was INDIVIDUAL access did there become an opportunity for an individual, isolated reading and interpretation that had no need or use for community.

Just as identity in Christ is always COMMUNITY identity, our reading of Scripture becomes a COMMUNITY READING as well. While we still have access to reading as individuals, we stop asking, "What does this mean to me?"--as though there is such an isolated meaning. Instead we have a GROUP MENTALITY that asks, "What does this mean to US?"

We lay aside INDIVIDUAL interpretations precisely because they are inevitably argumentative and divisive. We GIVE UP the right of individual interpretation and take on the accountability of SHARED READING.


He means that YOU give the Hired Hand the right to Read, Interpret and Teach the Word. These people are, we are told, foreordained and they have the power to SILENCE the shepherds so they can bring in the WOLVES.

Shelly: The question for all of us is NOT what the Bible says, but how and why... Why don't we at least entertain the possibility that the Bible simply reflects an ANCIENT TABOO or homophobic prejudice in a few people like Paul -- a taboo and prejudice we need to outgrow?

The ACU Agenda: Train Prophetic roles, Channelers and Facilitators the method of subverting the 'hierarchial" views of Jesus and Paul. the end-time subversion is the beginninng-time version which is "Feminist hermeneutics stands over against patriarchal hermeneutics" its goal achieved "by small, often unnoticed acts of SUBVERSION. Numerous such incremental changes, like EROSION, will eventually bring down the FORTRESS " ( WOMEN IN THE CHURCH: Reclaiming the Ideal p. 32).

http://www.piney.com/ACU-OSBURN.html

I debated the "Electoral System" 70 years ago: I haven't heard any politician or pundit explain it. The popular vote does not work in politics or religion especially if built upon the best propaganda.

There are 3,141 counties in the United States. Trump won 3,084 of them. Clinton won 57.

There are 62 counties in New York State. Trump won 46 of them. Clinton won 16.

Clinton won the popular vote by approx. 1.5 millionvotes.
In the 5 counties that encompass NYC, (Bronx, Brooklyn, Manhattan, Richmond & Queens) Clinton received well over 2 million more votes than Trump. (Clinton only won 4 of these counties; Trump won Richmond). Therefore these 5 counties alone, more than accounted for Clinton winning the popular vote of the entire country.

These 5 counties comprise 319 square miles.The United States is comprised of 3, 797,000 square
miles.

When you have a country that encompasses almost 4 million square miles of territory, it would be ludicrous to even suggest that the vote of those who inhabit a mere 319 square miles should dictate the outcome of a national
election.

Large, densely populated Democrat cities (NYC, Chicago,LA, etc) don’t and shouldn’t speak for the rest of our country.


We are not ONE NATION and neither are we UNDER GOD. We are 50 separate states and do not let the welfare and crime states pick a president sellected by alll of the states. Brexit begins the breakup of the planned restored Holy Roman Empire and maybe we can break up a socialist America and a worse-than planned One-United-Church with the clergy casting the only votes.

In Politics and almost-always Anti-Christian religious institutions Stand up and Speak out. You do a fine job and they will just hate you. Rejoice and be glad

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Scripture
Scripture

December 11th, 2016, 5:13 am #3

For Dianna and this thread. . . . Some thoughts that come to mind.

There are at least 3 reasons that Europeans came to America: (1) attempts of European nations to prosper through the material abundance in the New World, (2) freedom from religious intolerance and persecution in Europe, and (2) desire prosper for individuals who came to America.

Many of the early colonists were therefore religious but there were many who sought personal monetary rewards. Europeans to some extent exploited America even as nations exploit other nations today. So political rule can be for various reasons today includes all these three reasons even today. Government, then, has mixed motives.

However, the early American patriots included many who were in the game for personal gain, reason 2. But many were also zealous for Christian teaching, and so the statement that we are all familiar with in both the Declaration of Independence, as well as the U.S. Constitution.

Many of these were people who believe in Christ, but many were Deists who believed in a distant God, and so the phrase "Nature's God." Thomas Jefferson believed in God enough to have his own edition of the New Testament, but he cut out references to miracles in the gospels.

It took some religious revivals through the last two centuries to get where we are now, and the revival about the time of Thomas and Alexander Campbell, destroyed Deism practically, to where people began to believe that God's will is active right here and now.

Our government today, is composed of all three reasons that were used in coming to American, and so the divisions we see are not new. What is new is perhaps the radical atheism which show little regard for Christian morality. Looking at the U.S. from this perspective, it is important, it seems, for representatives who believe in Christian morality to hold office.

David Lipscomb was apparently so disillusioned with the War between the States, that he thought Christians should avoid all office-holding in government. Few in the Churches of Christ now support that view. The effect of secular legislation now threatens the faith of our younger generations.

Again, secularization is now new, and Paul the Apostle had to deal with Christians who wanted to withdraw from all government activities in Romans 13. He saw that Christians had some obligations to government, and he painted it such that Christians would be honored by government if they were respectful citizens. Often this is the case, but Paul himself was apparently martyred by the Roman government.

This brings us to the point that there are many factors in government that Christians cannot take part in. The factors may make it hard for the Christian to take an active part in government. If we look at the way our tax money is spent, we might get very upset. However, Jesus himself said that we should pay taxes. The closest way to jail is to fail to pay taxes. Operations of government that offend us as being immoral are a special problem, as to what type of objection we should give: vote against these practices, parade in the streets, lobby, or fail to cooperate. In the end, from a personal level, our obligation as Christians is not do the immoral thing ourselves, even at the threat of persecution.

These are all difficult issues for us, so we as individuals will have to make that decisions for ourselves.

Ken's notes above show that the individual who reads his Bible, can be independent of the doctrine of paid architects of entrenched interests. David Lipscomb put great value on the individual at home studying his or her Bible. The Bereans studied the Bible daily (Acts 17:11). Paul informed Timothy to give time to reading and studying all the scripture, which make one wise unto salvation.

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Joined: February 11th, 2016, 11:16 pm

December 12th, 2016, 7:34 pm #4

"Scripture says". David Lipscomb was apparently so disillusioned with the War between the States, that he thought Christians should avoid all office-holding in government. Few in the Churches of Christ now support that view. The effect of secular legislation now threatens the faith of our younger generations.

From my own perspective, the influence of such thoughts as David Lipscombe for Christians to withdraw seemed to prevail. It wasn't until I started studying what it meant to be a follower of Christ, that I was led to reflect on government. We are told to pray for our leaders, so we may lead godly lives, but we are also to promote justice, mercy and look out for the fatherless and widows.

Thank you for both of your comments. It is beneficial to me to know what those who follow Christ think about this issue.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

December 18th, 2016, 4:09 am #5

I read the following quote in the Dec. 2016 issue of "Seek The Old Paths"

"The Separation of Church and State ruling (in my view a total miscarriage of justice) by the United States Supreme Court some forty years ago has given way to enactments that are contrary to sound doctrine. by Denver Thomas."

Obviously I was not aware that we had a state religion in the US. Wasn't the country founded on freedom of religion? Which brings me to the topic of discussion. I believe the framers of the constitution did base the laws on Christian principles. Should individual Christians run for political office? I was taught we are in the world but not of the world, and whatever type persecution came we hold on to our faith in Jesus Christ, and spread the gospel.

Scripture made a great post in another thread that I will paraphrase...any system of government without putting The Lord first will inevitably fail.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]This may not be a direct answer to the question: "Should individual Christians run for political office?" But I'd like to quote what Paul wrote to Timothy:
[/color]
“I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; for kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Key expression to note is: "for kings, and for all that are in authority." Since the individual Christian alone does not constitute the church, and whether or not there should be separation of church and state, no law or regulation -- political or religious -- is violated. Having Christians in government leadership is preferable.[/color]
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Sarge
Sarge

December 31st, 2016, 5:44 pm #6

I read the following quote in the Dec. 2016 issue of "Seek The Old Paths"

"The Separation of Church and State ruling (in my view a total miscarriage of justice) by the United States Supreme Court some forty years ago has given way to enactments that are contrary to sound doctrine. by Denver Thomas."

Obviously I was not aware that we had a state religion in the US. Wasn't the country founded on freedom of religion? Which brings me to the topic of discussion. I believe the framers of the constitution did base the laws on Christian principles. Should individual Christians run for political office? I was taught we are in the world but not of the world, and whatever type persecution came we hold on to our faith in Jesus Christ, and spread the gospel.

Scripture made a great post in another thread that I will paraphrase...any system of government without putting The Lord first will inevitably fail.
Simple Simon Sez Sisters Sit for Church Politics.

Other Politics: Get all you can get.

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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

December 31st, 2016, 6:40 pm #7

I read the following quote in the Dec. 2016 issue of "Seek The Old Paths"

"The Separation of Church and State ruling (in my view a total miscarriage of justice) by the United States Supreme Court some forty years ago has given way to enactments that are contrary to sound doctrine. by Denver Thomas."

Obviously I was not aware that we had a state religion in the US. Wasn't the country founded on freedom of religion? Which brings me to the topic of discussion. I believe the framers of the constitution did base the laws on Christian principles. Should individual Christians run for political office? I was taught we are in the world but not of the world, and whatever type persecution came we hold on to our faith in Jesus Christ, and spread the gospel.

Scripture made a great post in another thread that I will paraphrase...any system of government without putting The Lord first will inevitably fail.
Christianity is a discipline or SCHOOL OF CHRIST'S THOUGHTS. Religions are not Christians but are Institutions and School's of the WORLD'S thoughts or the kingdom of the Devil-ecumenical.

Religion in it's IMPURE form is that of the THRACIAN or Orpheus.

Hymns of Orpheus TO APOLLON. fumigation

BLEST Pæan [Apollōni Paiani], come, propitious to my pray'r,
Illustrious pow'r, whom Memphian tribes revere,
Slayer of Tityus, and the God of health,
Lycorian Phoebus, fruitful source of wealth .
Spermatic, golden-lyr'd, the field from thee .........................5
Receives it's constant, rich fertility.
Titanic, Grunian, Smynthian, thee I sing, 7
Python-destroying, hallow'd, Delphian king:
Rural, light-bearer, and the Muse's head,
Noble and lovely, arm'd with arrows dread: ......................10
Far-darting, Bacchian, two-fold, and divine, 11
Pow'r far diffused, and course oblique is thine.
O, Delian king, whose light-producing eye
Views all within, and all beneath the sky:

Thyself all the source and end divine:
'Tis thine all Nature's music to inspire,
With various-sounding, harmonising lyre;
Now the last string thou tun'ft to sweet accord, 29
Divinely warbling now the highest chord;

Note 162:29 Ver. 29.] Now the last string, &c. Gesner well observes, in his notes to this Hymn, that the comparison and conjunction of the musical and astronomical elements are most ancient; being derived from Orpheus and Pythagoras, to Plato.

Now, according to the Orphic and Pythagoric doctrine, the lyre of Apollo is an image of the celestial harmony, or the melody caused by the orderly revolutions of thc celestial spheres


In Romans 14 Paul is EXCLUDING the Roman Orphics and Phythagorians which did not edify or EDUCATE. In Romans 15 self pleasure excludes all of the performing arts and includes edification or education by "using one mind and one mouth to speak that which is written for our LEARNING." That is spelled CENI.

Almost all RELIGIONS with a WORLD VIEW stolen from Schools of Christ will be engaging in the worship of the KOSMOKRATER and not the Creator of the Spiritual Kingdom which does not come with observation meaning religious operations of the IMPURE THRESKIA kind. The Judas Bag was the glossokomen always attached to a flute case for the prophesied (Psalm 41) musical assault of Judas against Jesus.

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December 31st, 2016, 7:45 pm #8

Everything old is new again. . . .

Luke 17:20-21New King James Version (NKJV)
The Coming of the Kingdom:
20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’[a] For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

Here Jesus emphasizes that the kingdom is not composed of images but rather the expression of godliness through visiting the fatherless and widows and keeping oneself unspotted from the world. Every extravaganza in impure religion in an expression of the glory of Apollon, the leader of the starry host. These impure expressions include such items as temple worship (cathedrals, church buildings), respect of days (Christmas, Santa and Easter bunny), extravagant church worship (moving lights, films, videos, instruments, robes, etc), hierarchy (respect of persons) and traditions (the unwritten words and creeds which are highly relative to the particular generation of church leaders). Church leaders are highly vulnerable to traditions formed in their own teens and 20s, whereby they think older points of view are brought by "change agents."

External symbols derive from the worship of Apollon as described by Orpheus. These influences come from the stars and heavenly hosts of wickedness.

The concrete images of Christianity are therefore part of the pride of Apollon (God of light, healing, and poetry). Apollyon on the other hand is the devil.

CENI(command, example, necessary inference) is the manner by which we escape the influence of Apollon. The attempt by Judaizing teachers, bringing in days, seasons, and festivals is a retrenchment into the old system of Law.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

December 31st, 2016, 10:25 pm #9

The later day "progressives" claim that THEY are given the liberty to impose their institutions and staff and YOU have the liberty to get over it or get out. However, Jesus died to give US liberty from the laded burden and burden laders. Faithful ministers will attempt to serve people and not load them down with busy work and taxes. Messianic Jews are welcomed at the once-Christian universities: they are Jews and believe that Jesus is THEIR Messiah but Gentiles are welcomed to tag along with their own rituals.

Gal. 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free,
<font color="#FFFFFF">.....
and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Gal. 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised,
.....Christ shall profit you nothing.
Gal. 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised,
.....that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Gal. 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you,
.....whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Gal. 5:5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.
Gal. 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing,
.....nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Gal. 5:7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
Gal. 5:8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.
Gal. 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
Gal. 5:10 I have confidence in you through the Lord,
.....that ye will be none otherwise minded:
.....but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.
Gal. 5:11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision,
.....why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.
Gal. 5:12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.


g609. apokopto, ap-ok-op´-to; from 575 and 2875; to amputate; reflexively (by irony) to mutilate (the privy parts): — cut off. Compare 2699. membrum virile a.ta gennētika, of eunuchs, Ph.1.89: abs., “apokekommenos” eunuch, LXXDe.23.1, cf.Luc.Eun.8:—Med., make oneself a eunuch, Ep.Gal.5.12,

Gal. 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

They would deny that as a command as a "salvation issue."
</font>
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Sarge
Sarge

January 1st, 2017, 1:23 pm #10

Everything old is new again. . . .

Luke 17:20-21New King James Version (NKJV)
The Coming of the Kingdom:
20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’[a] For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”

Here Jesus emphasizes that the kingdom is not composed of images but rather the expression of godliness through visiting the fatherless and widows and keeping oneself unspotted from the world. Every extravaganza in impure religion in an expression of the glory of Apollon, the leader of the starry host. These impure expressions include such items as temple worship (cathedrals, church buildings), respect of days (Christmas, Santa and Easter bunny), extravagant church worship (moving lights, films, videos, instruments, robes, etc), hierarchy (respect of persons) and traditions (the unwritten words and creeds which are highly relative to the particular generation of church leaders). Church leaders are highly vulnerable to traditions formed in their own teens and 20s, whereby they think older points of view are brought by "change agents."

External symbols derive from the worship of Apollon as described by Orpheus. These influences come from the stars and heavenly hosts of wickedness.

The concrete images of Christianity are therefore part of the pride of Apollon (God of light, healing, and poetry). Apollyon on the other hand is the devil.

CENI(command, example, necessary inference) is the manner by which we escape the influence of Apollon. The attempt by Judaizing teachers, bringing in days, seasons, and festivals is a retrenchment into the old system of Law.
Wow, "Script" sure sounds alot like Ken. Maybe Script and Ken share an IP address? Maybe more?
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