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September 27th, 2012, 4:28 pm #11

The early "church fathers" were mortal men who decided which books would make up the biblical canon. That they did not consider the Book of Enoch as Scripture does not necessarily nullify Enoch. They rejected Enoch based on their human opinion. Again, why would inspired Jude quote from Enoch if only a brief passage of Enoch was inspired and the rest of that whole book was not? That makes no sense. If the church fathers were so sure about rejecting the whole Book of Enoch, then why did they not delete Jude's quote of Enoch?

"All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2 Tim. 3:16 (KJV).

Remember that Jude does NOT reject Enoch's prophecy about God; therefore, the prophecy must be true. Now if the Epistle of Jude, which is inspired Scripture, quotes Enoch, then it makes no sense that an inspired writer would quote true prophecy from an uninspired book OR quote a selectively "inspired passage" from an otherwise uninspired book. If that's the case, then people can hack the Bible to pieces and say this passage or book is "inspired Scripture" and that passage or book is not, according to their fancy. That's madness.

BTW, Dave quotes quite a bit of material but does not cite his reference.
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Anonymous
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September 27th, 2012, 6:28 pm #12

The Christ Who outlawed "vocal or instrumental rejoicing including elevated rhetoric" also spoke to the DISCIPLES ONLY through the Prophets and Apostles. That is because Qahal, synagogue or Church of Christ in the wilderness meant A SCHOOL OF CHRIST. No one violated the direct command in a liberal synagogue until the year 1815. Then, the judge told the Rabbi: "No, you cannot steal the synagogue or widows." People who are not to be stopped when they take a coat will not be stopped when they steal the church house of widows. It's a MARK: it's in the BOOK.

Christ spoke through the Prophets (only) and Jesus made the prophecies more certain and Peter repudiated anyone who would go beyond "that which is written for OUR memory of the eye-- and ear--witnesses, anyone who says that Christ did not RADICALLY connect instruments to "Lucifer the singing and harp playing prostitute in the garden of Eden, AND the end-time Babylon mother of harlots is an 'Angel of Light.' The Angellos in the "voice of angels" in 1 Corinthians is speaking in tongues equated to playing instruments when Jesus comes to speak.

Isaiah 57:15 For thus saith the high and
.....lofty One that inhabiteth eternity,
.....whose NAME is Holy;
.....I dwell in the high and holy place,
.....with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit,
.....to revive the spirit of the humble,
.....and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
Isaiah 57:16 For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth:
.....for the spirit should fail before me,
..... and the souls which I have made.
Isaiah 57:17 For the iniquity of his covetousness was I wroth,
..... and smote him:
.....I hid me, and was wroth,
.....and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart. [Anti CENI]
Isaiah 57:18 I have seen his ways, and will heal him:
.....I will lead him also, and restore comforts unto him and to his mourners.
Isaiah 57:19 I create the fruit of the lips;
.....Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near, saith the LORD;
.....and I will heal him.
Isaiah 57:20 But the wicked are like the troubled sea,
.....when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt.



Isaiah 58:1 Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice LIKE a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.

THE MARK OF THE WICKED

Isaiah 58:2 Yet they seek me daily,
.....and delight to know my ways,
.........as a nation that did righteousness,
.........and [AS] forsook not the ordinance of their God:
.....They ask of me the ordinances of justice;
.........they take delight in approaching to God.

Isaiah 58:3 Wherefore have we fasted, say they, and thou seest not? wherefore have we afflicted our soul, and thou takest no knowledge?
.....Behold, in the day of your fast ye find pleasure,
.....and exact all your labours.
Isaiah 58:4 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness:
.....ye shall not fast as ye do this day,
.....to make your voice to be heard on high.
The Problem....."Now if the Epistle of Jude, which is inspired Scripture, quotes Enoch, then it makes no sense that an inspired writer would quote true prophecy from an uninspired book OR quote a selectively "inspired passage" from an otherwise uninspired book."

The solution...."The Apostle Paul quotes Epimenides in Titus 1:12 but that does not mean we should give any additional authority to Epimenides writings. The same is true with Jude, verse 14. Jude quoting from the book of Enoch in Jude verse 9 does not indicate the entire book is inspired, or even true. All it means is that particular verse is true."


It makes perfectly good sense.
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September 27th, 2012, 8:57 pm #13

"For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. One of themselves, [even] a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians [are] alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth" (Titus 1:10-14 KJV).

Paul quotes Epimenides, who spoke evil of the people of Crete, only to contrast the Cretans' poor reputation with that of God's perfect reputation. It's as if Paul was saying, "See, even one of Crete's own prophets admits that the Cretans are liars."

Paul's quote from Epimenides said nothing that wasn't already known at the time: the Cretans had a bad reputation for being liars. That's why Paul said, "This witness is true." Notice that Paul said, "One of themselves...a prophet of their own," meaning one of the Cretans, yet Paul was careful not to acknowledge Epimenides as a prophet of God. In fact, Paul didn't even mention Epimenides by name at all. Thus, there is no reason to believe that Epimenides was an inspired writer. This is in COMPLETE contrast with Jude, who quoted a TRUE prophecy about God from Enoch. Thus, Enoch was an inspired writer, yet the mortals who decided which books would make up the bibical canon let their prejudices bias them against Enoch. You can't say of a writer that only selected bits of his writings are "inspired" and the rest is junk. Either a writer's work is COMPLETELY inspired or it is not.
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September 28th, 2012, 2:32 am #14

The Christ Who outlawed "vocal or instrumental rejoicing including elevated rhetoric" also spoke to the DISCIPLES ONLY through the Prophets and Apostles. That is because Qahal, synagogue or Church of Christ in the wilderness meant A SCHOOL OF CHRIST. No one violated the direct command in a liberal synagogue until the year 1815. Then, the judge told the Rabbi: "No, you cannot steal the synagogue or widows." People who are not to be stopped when they take a coat will not be stopped when they steal the church house of widows. It's a MARK: it's in the BOOK.

Christ spoke through the Prophets (only) and Jesus made the prophecies more certain and Peter repudiated anyone who would go beyond "that which is written for OUR memory of the eye-- and ear--witnesses, anyone who says that Christ did not RADICALLY connect instruments to "Lucifer the singing and harp playing prostitute in the garden of Eden, AND the end-time Babylon mother of harlots is an 'Angel of Light.' The Angellos in the "voice of angels" in 1 Corinthians is speaking in tongues equated to playing instruments when Jesus comes to speak.

Isaiah 57:15 For thus saith the high and
.....lofty One that inhabiteth eternity,
.....whose NAME is Holy;
.....I dwell in the high and holy place,
.....with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit,
.....to revive the spirit of the humble,
.....and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
Isaiah 57:16 For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth:
.....for the spirit should fail before me,
..... and the souls which I have made.
Isaiah 57:17 For the iniquity of his covetousness was I wroth,
..... and smote him:
.....I hid me, and was wroth,
.....and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart. [Anti CENI]
Isaiah 57:18 I have seen his ways, and will heal him:
.....I will lead him also, and restore comforts unto him and to his mourners.
Isaiah 57:19 I create the fruit of the lips;
.....Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near, saith the LORD;
.....and I will heal him.
Isaiah 57:20 But the wicked are like the troubled sea,
.....when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt.



Isaiah 58:1 Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice LIKE a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.

THE MARK OF THE WICKED

Isaiah 58:2 Yet they seek me daily,
.....and delight to know my ways,
.........as a nation that did righteousness,
.........and [AS] forsook not the ordinance of their God:
.....They ask of me the ordinances of justice;
.........they take delight in approaching to God.

Isaiah 58:3 Wherefore have we fasted, say they, and thou seest not? wherefore have we afflicted our soul, and thou takest no knowledge?
.....Behold, in the day of your fast ye find pleasure,
.....and exact all your labours.
Isaiah 58:4 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness:
.....ye shall not fast as ye do this day,
.....to make your voice to be heard on high.
So who makes that judgment that ALL of the book of Enoch is Inspired?

You just don't trust God to guide men to do His will. If God would have wanted Enoch to be a book in His Word, you can be sure that it would have happened. It isn't something that anyone can explain away, other than Enoch is NOT a part of Word because as always.....God's Will Be Done!
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

September 28th, 2012, 3:22 am #15

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave (or Annie Mouse), we know you -- don't be an anonymous writer.

We quote from various sources all the time!!! What's wrong with that when they, in fact, affirm what the Bible already asserts?

I'd rather quote from the Book of Enoch, the Didache, the writings of the early church fathers, ancient texts lost and found, etc., than from the change agents' distortions of the truth.[/color]
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September 28th, 2012, 1:12 pm #16

The Christ Who outlawed "vocal or instrumental rejoicing including elevated rhetoric" also spoke to the DISCIPLES ONLY through the Prophets and Apostles. That is because Qahal, synagogue or Church of Christ in the wilderness meant A SCHOOL OF CHRIST. No one violated the direct command in a liberal synagogue until the year 1815. Then, the judge told the Rabbi: "No, you cannot steal the synagogue or widows." People who are not to be stopped when they take a coat will not be stopped when they steal the church house of widows. It's a MARK: it's in the BOOK.

Christ spoke through the Prophets (only) and Jesus made the prophecies more certain and Peter repudiated anyone who would go beyond "that which is written for OUR memory of the eye-- and ear--witnesses, anyone who says that Christ did not RADICALLY connect instruments to "Lucifer the singing and harp playing prostitute in the garden of Eden, AND the end-time Babylon mother of harlots is an 'Angel of Light.' The Angellos in the "voice of angels" in 1 Corinthians is speaking in tongues equated to playing instruments when Jesus comes to speak.

Isaiah 57:15 For thus saith the high and
.....lofty One that inhabiteth eternity,
.....whose NAME is Holy;
.....I dwell in the high and holy place,
.....with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit,
.....to revive the spirit of the humble,
.....and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
Isaiah 57:16 For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth:
.....for the spirit should fail before me,
..... and the souls which I have made.
Isaiah 57:17 For the iniquity of his covetousness was I wroth,
..... and smote him:
.....I hid me, and was wroth,
.....and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart. [Anti CENI]
Isaiah 57:18 I have seen his ways, and will heal him:
.....I will lead him also, and restore comforts unto him and to his mourners.
Isaiah 57:19 I create the fruit of the lips;
.....Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near, saith the LORD;
.....and I will heal him.
Isaiah 57:20 But the wicked are like the troubled sea,
.....when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt.



Isaiah 58:1 Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice LIKE a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.

THE MARK OF THE WICKED

Isaiah 58:2 Yet they seek me daily,
.....and delight to know my ways,
.........as a nation that did righteousness,
.........and [AS] forsook not the ordinance of their God:
.....They ask of me the ordinances of justice;
.........they take delight in approaching to God.

Isaiah 58:3 Wherefore have we fasted, say they, and thou seest not? wherefore have we afflicted our soul, and thou takest no knowledge?
.....Behold, in the day of your fast ye find pleasure,
.....and exact all your labours.
Isaiah 58:4 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness:
.....ye shall not fast as ye do this day,
.....to make your voice to be heard on high.
You do whatever you want to Donnie....you always have.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

September 28th, 2012, 4:04 pm #17

The Christ Who outlawed "vocal or instrumental rejoicing including elevated rhetoric" also spoke to the DISCIPLES ONLY through the Prophets and Apostles. That is because Qahal, synagogue or Church of Christ in the wilderness meant A SCHOOL OF CHRIST. No one violated the direct command in a liberal synagogue until the year 1815. Then, the judge told the Rabbi: "No, you cannot steal the synagogue or widows." People who are not to be stopped when they take a coat will not be stopped when they steal the church house of widows. It's a MARK: it's in the BOOK.

Christ spoke through the Prophets (only) and Jesus made the prophecies more certain and Peter repudiated anyone who would go beyond "that which is written for OUR memory of the eye-- and ear--witnesses, anyone who says that Christ did not RADICALLY connect instruments to "Lucifer the singing and harp playing prostitute in the garden of Eden, AND the end-time Babylon mother of harlots is an 'Angel of Light.' The Angellos in the "voice of angels" in 1 Corinthians is speaking in tongues equated to playing instruments when Jesus comes to speak.

Isaiah 57:15 For thus saith the high and
.....lofty One that inhabiteth eternity,
.....whose NAME is Holy;
.....I dwell in the high and holy place,
.....with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit,
.....to revive the spirit of the humble,
.....and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
Isaiah 57:16 For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth:
.....for the spirit should fail before me,
..... and the souls which I have made.
Isaiah 57:17 For the iniquity of his covetousness was I wroth,
..... and smote him:
.....I hid me, and was wroth,
.....and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart. [Anti CENI]
Isaiah 57:18 I have seen his ways, and will heal him:
.....I will lead him also, and restore comforts unto him and to his mourners.
Isaiah 57:19 I create the fruit of the lips;
.....Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near, saith the LORD;
.....and I will heal him.
Isaiah 57:20 But the wicked are like the troubled sea,
.....when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt.



Isaiah 58:1 Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice LIKE a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.

THE MARK OF THE WICKED

Isaiah 58:2 Yet they seek me daily,
.....and delight to know my ways,
.........as a nation that did righteousness,
.........and [AS] forsook not the ordinance of their God:
.....They ask of me the ordinances of justice;
.........they take delight in approaching to God.

Isaiah 58:3 Wherefore have we fasted, say they, and thou seest not? wherefore have we afflicted our soul, and thou takest no knowledge?
.....Behold, in the day of your fast ye find pleasure,
.....and exact all your labours.
Isaiah 58:4 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness:
.....ye shall not fast as ye do this day,
.....to make your voice to be heard on high.
Our hymns are, for the most part, our creed in metre, while it appears in the prose form in our confessions. A methodistic sermon must be succeeded by a methodistic hymn, and a methodistic mode of singing it. And so of the Presbyterian. There is little or no difference to any sect in this one particular. Even the Quaker is not singular here; for as he has no regular sermon he has no regular song, hymn, nor prayer.

Those who have many frames and great vicissitudes of feeling, sing and pray much about them,
and those who are more speculative than practical, prefer exercises of intellect to those of the heart or affections.

The hymn book is as good an index to the brains and to the hearts of a people as the creed book;<b> and scarce a "sermon is preached," which is not followed up by a <b>corresponding hymn or song.<b>

Does the preacher preach up Sinai instead of Calvary, Moses instead of Christ, to convince of convict his audience? Then he sings--
</b></b></b>
Awak'd by Sinai's awful sound,
My soul in bonds of guilt I found,
And knew not where to go;
O'erwhelm'd with sin, with anguish slain
The sinner must he born again,
Or sink to endless woe."

"When to the law I trembling fled,
It pour'd its curses on my head;
I no relief could find.
This fearful truth increased my pain,
The sinner must be born again,
O'erwhelm'd my tortur'd mind."

"Again did Sinai's thunder roll,
And guilt lay heavy on my soul,
A vast unwieldy load!
Alas! I read and saw it plain.
The sinner must be born again,
Or drink the wrath of God."
I know of nothing more anti-evangelical than the above verses; but they suit one of our law-convincing [395] sermons, and the whole congregation must sing, suit or non-suit the one half of them. But to finish the climax, this exercise is called praising God.

But again--Does the preacher teach his congregation that the time and place when and where the sinner should be converted was decreed from all eternity? Then out of complaisance to the preacher, the congregation must praise the Lord by singing--
"'Twas fix'd in God's eternal mind
When his dear sons should mercy find:
From everlasting he decreed
When every good should be conveyed:'

"Determin'd was the manner how
We should be brought the Lord to know,
Yea, he decreed the very place
Where he would call us by his grace."
Is the absolute and unconditional perseverance of all the converted taught? Then, after sermon, all must sing--
Safe in the arms of Sovereign Love
We ever shall remain,
Nor shall the rage of earth or hell
Make thy dear counsels vain."

"Not one of all the chosen race
But shall to heaven attain;
Partake on earth the purpos'd grace,
And then with Jesus reign."
But does the system teach that there are and must necessarily be cold and dark seasons in the experience of all christians, and that such only are true christians, who have their doubts, fears, glooms, and winters? Then the audience sings--
"Dear Lord, if, indeed, I am thine,
If thou art my sun and my song,
Say why do I languish and pine,
And why are my winters so long?
O drive these dark clouds from my sky,
Thy soul cheering presence restore,
Or take me unto thee on high,
Where winter and clouds are no more."
Without being prolix or irksome in filing objections to all these specimens of hymn singing, I shall mention but two or three:--

1. They are in toto contrary to the spirit and genius of the christian religion
2. They are unfit for any congregation, as but few in any one congregation can with regard to truth, apply them to themselves.

3. They are an essential part of the corrupt systems of this day, and a decisive characteristic the grand apostacy
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September 28th, 2012, 5:13 pm #18

So who makes that judgment that ALL of the book of Enoch is Inspired?

You just don't trust God to guide men to do His will. If God would have wanted Enoch to be a book in His Word, you can be sure that it would have happened. It isn't something that anyone can explain away, other than Enoch is NOT a part of Word because as always.....God's Will Be Done!
I think Dave's faith would dissolve completely if the Book of Enoch ever became part of the biblical canon. There's nothing in the Bible to suggest that the mortal men who selected the books for the canon were inspired like the biblical writers were. Those mortal men were guided by their best judgment in determining what they believed to be inspired works and what they believed to be otherwise. As I recall, the word "canon" doesn't even appear anywhere in the Bible in any translation.
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Joined: January 28th, 2012, 10:19 pm

September 29th, 2012, 11:46 pm #19

Our hymns are, for the most part, our creed in metre, while it appears in the prose form in our confessions. A methodistic sermon must be succeeded by a methodistic hymn, and a methodistic mode of singing it. And so of the Presbyterian. There is little or no difference to any sect in this one particular. Even the Quaker is not singular here; for as he has no regular sermon he has no regular song, hymn, nor prayer.

Those who have many frames and great vicissitudes of feeling, sing and pray much about them,
and those who are more speculative than practical, prefer exercises of intellect to those of the heart or affections.

The hymn book is as good an index to the brains and to the hearts of a people as the creed book;<b> and scarce a "sermon is preached," which is not followed up by a <b>corresponding hymn or song.<b>

Does the preacher preach up Sinai instead of Calvary, Moses instead of Christ, to convince of convict his audience? Then he sings--
</b></b></b>
Awak'd by Sinai's awful sound,
My soul in bonds of guilt I found,
And knew not where to go;
O'erwhelm'd with sin, with anguish slain
The sinner must he born again,
Or sink to endless woe."

"When to the law I trembling fled,
It pour'd its curses on my head;
I no relief could find.
This fearful truth increased my pain,
The sinner must be born again,
O'erwhelm'd my tortur'd mind."

"Again did Sinai's thunder roll,
And guilt lay heavy on my soul,
A vast unwieldy load!
Alas! I read and saw it plain.
The sinner must be born again,
Or drink the wrath of God."
I know of nothing more anti-evangelical than the above verses; but they suit one of our law-convincing [395] sermons, and the whole congregation must sing, suit or non-suit the one half of them. But to finish the climax, this exercise is called praising God.

But again--Does the preacher teach his congregation that the time and place when and where the sinner should be converted was decreed from all eternity? Then out of complaisance to the preacher, the congregation must praise the Lord by singing--
"'Twas fix'd in God's eternal mind
When his dear sons should mercy find:
From everlasting he decreed
When every good should be conveyed:'

"Determin'd was the manner how
We should be brought the Lord to know,
Yea, he decreed the very place
Where he would call us by his grace."
Is the absolute and unconditional perseverance of all the converted taught? Then, after sermon, all must sing--
Safe in the arms of Sovereign Love
We ever shall remain,
Nor shall the rage of earth or hell
Make thy dear counsels vain."

"Not one of all the chosen race
But shall to heaven attain;
Partake on earth the purpos'd grace,
And then with Jesus reign."
But does the system teach that there are and must necessarily be cold and dark seasons in the experience of all christians, and that such only are true christians, who have their doubts, fears, glooms, and winters? Then the audience sings--
"Dear Lord, if, indeed, I am thine,
If thou art my sun and my song,
Say why do I languish and pine,
And why are my winters so long?
O drive these dark clouds from my sky,
Thy soul cheering presence restore,
Or take me unto thee on high,
Where winter and clouds are no more."
Without being prolix or irksome in filing objections to all these specimens of hymn singing, I shall mention but two or three:--

1. They are in toto contrary to the spirit and genius of the christian religion
2. They are unfit for any congregation, as but few in any one congregation can with regard to truth, apply them to themselves.

3. They are an essential part of the corrupt systems of this day, and a decisive characteristic the grand apostacy
Consider Proverbs 8

Vs 6 says wisdom speaks "excellent things" such as to not divide God's people over mechanical instruments of music which cannot worship God. Only mankind and the instruments given by God can worship - the mind and the voice! We are to spend our resources as the called out to conform to the commission given in Matt 28.

Vs 11 says wisdom cannot be compared to all the things we can possibly desire. How important it is that we maintain simple obedience to the gospel of Christ. One cannot improve on the BIble - we must not let satan fabricated issues draw off resources which should be applied to the great commission.

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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

September 30th, 2012, 12:35 am #20

Without knowing what they are talking about most of the "scholars" confess to being postmodern. That means post-Biblical, post-Christendon and post everyone before they were allowed into universities. They deny that ANYTHING can be certain except their ability with "new spectacles" to "get a new image of the Church" (Shelly).

They still drag out fragments of text when their hands are called but nothing in Scripture can make any difference.

If you are a Christian meaning a baptized disciple of Christ you WILL pay attention to all of the good advice in the Bible.

"Sophia" is Wisdom in the Greek world: the Jews equated Sophia to the Holy Spirit. Proverbs continues:

Prov 8:22 The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

Prov 8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Prov 8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

Prov 8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

Prov 8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

Prov 8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

Prov 8:28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

Prov 8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

Prov 8:30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;


As Classical trinitarians say "God always had His Word and Wisdom with Him."
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