“Rubel Shelly to step down from pulpit at Woodmont Hills”

Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

April 12th, 2005, 12:24 am #11

Why on God's great earth would you chose to be so gleeful that a brother who preaches God's Great gospel is leaving a congragation? why are you so concerned about liberal and conservative? If those young men and women are in a masters of divinity program do you not think they are going to have their own opinions regardless of what Rubell preaches...I've seen Rubell preach many times, why i dont nesecarily agree with every word that man says i understand that he is a man who is trying to preach the gospel according to what he believes is truth, what will bring people to Christ. And i know your going to argue the point that is not what " he thinks is truth, its what Christ said, God wrote" whatever...the bible is SO unbelievably black and white that its ridiculous to think its one hundred percent translatable! one thing matters....Did Christ Die for my sins...yes. rubel shelly believes that , you believe that...shut up about everything else.
It's ok to be ridiculous if you don't TRAFFICK in God's free word, divert churches to your own "evolving theology" and sow more deliberate discord than any one in our church history.

Unfortunately, not much of it is based on the reading of the same Bible used by Concerned Members. When you TAKE LIBERTIES, hear voices and PARTNER with God to get a new set of scriptures of OUR changed culture you claim to be the new super COOK and you had better be able to stand the HEAT now and for ever more.

Most of Shelly's early posted sermons did the Hegeling Dialectic to throw you into the PostModern schizophrenia to make you unhappy with your OLD church structure which Shelly helped to mold. This then CRIPPLES you so that to defend things like NOT ever seeing MUSIC as an operative word in the worship of a Spirit God you know that the CLOUD GONNA POUR ON YOU.

When Shelly discusses topical things like prophetesses, deaconesses, instrumental music as ok but even HE apparently could not bluff the weak elders, the wilderness as a PATTERN for church organization and worship and on and on and one he bats EXACTLY 0%. It is 100% out of his head or the latest fad on the internet. Even Jubilee was a ditto head of the Pope's call for Jubilees culminating in Jubilee 2000 when the Catholics expressed confidence that churches of Christ would join the MOTHER.

However, to be fair, he gives himself the right to TAKE LIBERTIES with the old, fragmented, uninspired scriptures. Therefore, he is not forced to reach the same conclusions as we who believe that the Bible is the ONLY rationale for the church of Christ.

http://www.piney.com/ShellyIndex.html

I would expect that the next one will be trained as a "Prophet, Chaneller and Facilitator" to move the church further away from the Truth. Whole churches have been built on the REVERSE EVANGELISM of Rubel Shelly and his ENABLERS. Are THEY all wrong? Unfortunately you have chased away those who repudiate performances and have collected a new body of SEEKERS who will never tolerate solid Bible preaching from the elders who are commanded to "teach that which has been taught."

The solution might be to look again at the OLDEN Bible and discover that there are NO offices for people like Shelly or all of the PROFESSIONAL PALS SERVING in the place of vocational deacons. If your elders are not competent to be the Christ Ordained Pastor-Teachers then they are NOT apt to be elders. Look at all of the money you could save if you quit fleecing widows and honest workers to support that class the Greek language identified as performing as SORCERERS and therefore PARASITES. Wouldn't it be nice to NOT hear someone promoting PROGRAMS stolen from the Methodist Social Gospel?

Ken
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eric
eric

April 13th, 2005, 5:07 pm #12

Eric asked and answers his own question, "Did Christ Die for my sins...yes. rubel shelly believes that , you believe that...shut up about everything else."

Jimmy questions: How do you know that Christ died for your sins Eric?

There is only one way that you could know that and that is because "the Bible tells you so".

It is not what Rubel tells you about Christ, it is what the bible tells you about Christ that has meaning.

Eric, never put your faith in the 'messanger', put your faith in Christ. Where did people learn of Christ before Rubel Shelly? From the Bible.

Eric says, "Did Christ Die for my sins...yes. rubel shelly believes that , you believe that...shut up about everything else."

"...shut up about everyting else." Christ died for his sins and nothing else matters.

So we leave Eric with a "dead" Christ. We will not discuss the resurrection, we will leave Christ in the grave. We will not discuss the church, we will leave Christ in the grave. We will not discuss the written Word of God.

we will leave Eric with a "dead" Christ and just shut up about everything else.

In Christian Love,

Jimmy
I have never put my faith in a messanger, and i suppose i should have typed a little bit further to include the ressurection, i thought that maybe that would have been understood. I really dont understand this whole thing. Christ didnt preach topics on musical instruments, poinsettas during the winter season, trunk or treat, all of that why do we make such a big deal about it? Christ didnt preach about wednesday night church but we follow that. i mean i think we need to focus on the things Christ set in place speciffically before we step into the grey matter of the bible and try and theoligize that stuff. thats my point.
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Jimmy Wren
Jimmy Wren

April 14th, 2005, 3:57 am #13

Eric thanks for posting again.

I offer Bible study courses free of charge. I offer an eight lesson course. I can mail you one, after you complete it and mail it back, I will grade it and send you the next lesson. Send me an e-mail or just ask for it in your next post.

When it comes to a study of religion, it is difficult for everyone to be on the same page. Every time someone criticizes me, I always stop and reevaluate what I am doing or have done. I have only one standard to examine myself by, one firm foundation, and that is the Bible.

You have heard the children sing, “the more we read the Bible, the Bible, the Bible…the more we read the Bible the happier we will be.” This is very true Eric.

Eric you wrote: Christ didnt preach topics on musical instruments, poinsettas during the winter season, trunk or treat, all of that why do we make such a big deal about it?

Jimmy answers: Eric, you are exactly right. But just what did Christ preach? Christ preached a LOT OF THINGS! Since you continued in your last post to include the resurrection I believe that you know the Gospel. If you are not sure of a Biblical explanation you can turn to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 and read it.

Next you should study about the Kingdom of Christ. Watch for the words “Church” and “Kingdom” as they are used to refer to the same thing.

You can read about both in the Gospels as well as the other New Testament books.

Now a wise man would study and examine the scriptures in search of a “pattern”. What do I want my life to be like? What does God want me to be like?

We read a lot of “do’s” and “don’ts” as to the way a Christian should live his life. But we really need something that we can hold on to. We need a “pattern” to follow. We follow Jesus as best we can. Christ is our PATTERN. But we also find another “pattern” in the life of the Apostle Paul.

“This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show forth all longsuffering, for a PATTERN to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.” ! Timothy 1:16-16 (KJV).

Paul says “Christ came to save sinners…of whom I am chief”. Paul goes on to say that he was forgiven. But here Paul says, present tense-not past, that he “is the chief of sinners”.

We must never forget that we, you and I (only I can confess and ask forgiveness for my sins) are sinners, presents tense. Forgiven-yes! Sinner-yes! Go as far into the future as I can imagine and I am still nothing more then a “forgiven sinner”.

Paul says something else here that we need to get, “…I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show forth all longsuffering, for a PATTERN to them which should hereafter believe on him…”

Paul says I am your PATTERN! Eric is Paul your PATTERN?

Timothy looked to Paul as a PATTERN and Paul told Timothy this: “I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare; Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan…” 1 Timothy 118-20 (KJV).

To Titus Paul says, “In all things showing thyself a PATTERN of good works: in doctrine showing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity, 8Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.” Titus 2:7- 8 (KJV).

As Christians we are to be “patterns” to each other by following the “patterns” (Paul, Timothy, Titus, and etc.,) that we find in the Bible. We don’t always find a good pattern in the pulpit but we always find a good pattern in the Bible!

Now just as we have “patterns” to follow that teach us how to live the Christian life, we also have a ‘PATTERN” found in the Word of God that teaches us how to worship in the Church of Christ.

In the Old Testament even the tabernacle was made “according to the pattern”. The “pattern” was shown to Moses, and no one else, and Moses revealed it to the people.

“…See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the PATTERN showed to thee in the mount.” Hebrews 8:5 (KJV).

The New Testament Church is also made according to the PATTERN. It becomes a little difficult here because there is no one passage of scripture that you can go to and learn it all. But that should not surprise you; to what scripture can you go to get a complete detail description of the tabernacle?

I will give you the PATTERN, we can discuss the supporting scriptures later.

No one is in the Lord’s Church without obedience to the Gospel. A belief in Christ leads one to joyously proclaim “I believe that Christ is the Son of the living God”. When Peter said these words, Jesus said “…upon this rock (meaning Himself, i.e. Christ is the Son of God.) I will build my church”

A belief in Christ should cause one to follow the PATTERN of Paul and confess his sins.

A belief that causes one to do the above things is called “faith”.

This “faith” cause’s one to be baptized, i.e., totally buried in water, to have his sins washed away. Our PATTERNS, “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.” Romans 6:3:6 (KJV). Paul, our PATTERN, says he has been baptized.

After following the above PATTERN, one now finds himself in Christ, in His Church. The Lord has added the saved person to His Church. “… And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.” Acts 2:47 (KJV).

Now that one is in the Church of Christ the question becomes, “How should one worship?”

The first thing is to remember your PATTERNS. Remember and study the life of Paul, Timothy, Titus, Peter, and the Apostle John. Don’t forget these PATTERNS!

You have a lot of studying to do Eric. Are you up for it? Are you willing to follow the PATTERNS of the Bible or will you follow the PATTERNS of RUBEL Shelly or other “change agents”?

If you choose the Bible for the PATTERNS that you determine to follow You will do the following; you will meet with other brethren upon the first day of the week to take the Lord’s supper; while at that meeting you will engage in a Bible study (the Church is the School of the Bible), you will sing Psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs (no praise songs, no instruments for making noise, every word uttered by a Christian is supposed to be understood, and no humming is mentioned or taught by the PATTERNS of the Bible that I follow). A free will collection will be taken up. You are to contribute as you learn of the need. The collection has no limit, you can give as little or as much as you like. This collection is not commanded but an example of a collection, on the first day of the week, for a specific need is give by our PATTERN, Paul. Another act of worship is Praying.

Eric all of the above should be a part of your daily life as well as in the Christian worship service, except for one act, i.e., taking the Lord’s Supper. This is a living memorial to be shared with the congregation only upon the first day of the week.

These are the five acts of worship. Many people add plays, dramas, instrumental music, video, but we have no PATTERN for such.

We can begin a discussion of Bible PATTERNS of worship if you like.

Don’t look for points of argument Eric. Look to your PATTERNS. Study the Word.

In Christian Love,

Jimmy







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Eric
Eric

April 14th, 2005, 4:18 pm #14

yeah, i'm down with the bible study jimmy wren...whats your email address?
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Jimmy Wren
Jimmy Wren

April 15th, 2005, 12:15 am #15

I have never put my faith in a messanger, and i suppose i should have typed a little bit further to include the ressurection, i thought that maybe that would have been understood. I really dont understand this whole thing. Christ didnt preach topics on musical instruments, poinsettas during the winter season, trunk or treat, all of that why do we make such a big deal about it? Christ didnt preach about wednesday night church but we follow that. i mean i think we need to focus on the things Christ set in place speciffically before we step into the grey matter of the bible and try and theoligize that stuff. thats my point.
Eric

Here it is! jimmywren@yahoo.com

In Christian Love,

Jimmy
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John Rebman
John Rebman

April 15th, 2005, 11:44 am #16

Eric thanks for posting again.

I offer Bible study courses free of charge. I offer an eight lesson course. I can mail you one, after you complete it and mail it back, I will grade it and send you the next lesson. Send me an e-mail or just ask for it in your next post.

When it comes to a study of religion, it is difficult for everyone to be on the same page. Every time someone criticizes me, I always stop and reevaluate what I am doing or have done. I have only one standard to examine myself by, one firm foundation, and that is the Bible.

You have heard the children sing, “the more we read the Bible, the Bible, the Bible…the more we read the Bible the happier we will be.” This is very true Eric.

Eric you wrote: Christ didnt preach topics on musical instruments, poinsettas during the winter season, trunk or treat, all of that why do we make such a big deal about it?

Jimmy answers: Eric, you are exactly right. But just what did Christ preach? Christ preached a LOT OF THINGS! Since you continued in your last post to include the resurrection I believe that you know the Gospel. If you are not sure of a Biblical explanation you can turn to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 and read it.

Next you should study about the Kingdom of Christ. Watch for the words “Church” and “Kingdom” as they are used to refer to the same thing.

You can read about both in the Gospels as well as the other New Testament books.

Now a wise man would study and examine the scriptures in search of a “pattern”. What do I want my life to be like? What does God want me to be like?

We read a lot of “do’s” and “don’ts” as to the way a Christian should live his life. But we really need something that we can hold on to. We need a “pattern” to follow. We follow Jesus as best we can. Christ is our PATTERN. But we also find another “pattern” in the life of the Apostle Paul.

“This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show forth all longsuffering, for a PATTERN to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.” ! Timothy 1:16-16 (KJV).

Paul says “Christ came to save sinners…of whom I am chief”. Paul goes on to say that he was forgiven. But here Paul says, present tense-not past, that he “is the chief of sinners”.

We must never forget that we, you and I (only I can confess and ask forgiveness for my sins) are sinners, presents tense. Forgiven-yes! Sinner-yes! Go as far into the future as I can imagine and I am still nothing more then a “forgiven sinner”.

Paul says something else here that we need to get, “…I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show forth all longsuffering, for a PATTERN to them which should hereafter believe on him…”

Paul says I am your PATTERN! Eric is Paul your PATTERN?

Timothy looked to Paul as a PATTERN and Paul told Timothy this: “I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare; Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan…” 1 Timothy 118-20 (KJV).

To Titus Paul says, “In all things showing thyself a PATTERN of good works: in doctrine showing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity, 8Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.” Titus 2:7- 8 (KJV).

As Christians we are to be “patterns” to each other by following the “patterns” (Paul, Timothy, Titus, and etc.,) that we find in the Bible. We don’t always find a good pattern in the pulpit but we always find a good pattern in the Bible!

Now just as we have “patterns” to follow that teach us how to live the Christian life, we also have a ‘PATTERN” found in the Word of God that teaches us how to worship in the Church of Christ.

In the Old Testament even the tabernacle was made “according to the pattern”. The “pattern” was shown to Moses, and no one else, and Moses revealed it to the people.

“…See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the PATTERN showed to thee in the mount.” Hebrews 8:5 (KJV).

The New Testament Church is also made according to the PATTERN. It becomes a little difficult here because there is no one passage of scripture that you can go to and learn it all. But that should not surprise you; to what scripture can you go to get a complete detail description of the tabernacle?

I will give you the PATTERN, we can discuss the supporting scriptures later.

No one is in the Lord’s Church without obedience to the Gospel. A belief in Christ leads one to joyously proclaim “I believe that Christ is the Son of the living God”. When Peter said these words, Jesus said “…upon this rock (meaning Himself, i.e. Christ is the Son of God.) I will build my church”

A belief in Christ should cause one to follow the PATTERN of Paul and confess his sins.

A belief that causes one to do the above things is called “faith”.

This “faith” cause’s one to be baptized, i.e., totally buried in water, to have his sins washed away. Our PATTERNS, “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.” Romans 6:3:6 (KJV). Paul, our PATTERN, says he has been baptized.

After following the above PATTERN, one now finds himself in Christ, in His Church. The Lord has added the saved person to His Church. “… And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.” Acts 2:47 (KJV).

Now that one is in the Church of Christ the question becomes, “How should one worship?”

The first thing is to remember your PATTERNS. Remember and study the life of Paul, Timothy, Titus, Peter, and the Apostle John. Don’t forget these PATTERNS!

You have a lot of studying to do Eric. Are you up for it? Are you willing to follow the PATTERNS of the Bible or will you follow the PATTERNS of RUBEL Shelly or other “change agents”?

If you choose the Bible for the PATTERNS that you determine to follow You will do the following; you will meet with other brethren upon the first day of the week to take the Lord’s supper; while at that meeting you will engage in a Bible study (the Church is the School of the Bible), you will sing Psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs (no praise songs, no instruments for making noise, every word uttered by a Christian is supposed to be understood, and no humming is mentioned or taught by the PATTERNS of the Bible that I follow). A free will collection will be taken up. You are to contribute as you learn of the need. The collection has no limit, you can give as little or as much as you like. This collection is not commanded but an example of a collection, on the first day of the week, for a specific need is give by our PATTERN, Paul. Another act of worship is Praying.

Eric all of the above should be a part of your daily life as well as in the Christian worship service, except for one act, i.e., taking the Lord’s Supper. This is a living memorial to be shared with the congregation only upon the first day of the week.

These are the five acts of worship. Many people add plays, dramas, instrumental music, video, but we have no PATTERN for such.

We can begin a discussion of Bible PATTERNS of worship if you like.

Don’t look for points of argument Eric. Look to your PATTERNS. Study the Word.

In Christian Love,

Jimmy






Ken,

What "pattern" of worship did the treasure of Candace, queen of Ethiopia take back to Africa with him in his chariot? Were further instructions needed for this euneuch to be a Christian, or remain a Christian?

What if he had been killed in a chariot wreck and had not sung in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs? What did he know about the number of cups at the Lord's supper? Do you suppose "baptism" did save this man and he went back to Ethiopia and taught others about Jesus? what they must do to be saved as he had been "taught" by the preacher Philip?

Probably not...He no doubt ran into a Rubel Shelly type of preacher who was teaching Christ among the poor and illiterate and became bogged down in loving and caring for the lost. Hey, now there's a "pattern" worth looking into!

Ken, when was the last time you went down into the getto and preached Jesus to a black man down on drugs; and told him to sing a hymn without a mechanical instrument?

Just what is your answere to the question, "Here is water; what does hinder me to be baptized?" Is there "now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus" or not?
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

April 15th, 2005, 4:13 pm #17

  • John: <font color=red>Ken, What "pattern" of worship did the treasure of Candace, queen of Ethiopia take back to Africa with him in his chariot? Were further instructions needed for this euneuch to be a Christian, or remain a Christian?</font>
First, you have not heard me discussing PATTERNISM. I leave that to the church stealers, ministry builders (The curse of the king was a pyramidal ministry structure supported by unlawful tithes.), "musical" rituals, the Law of Preaching violated over and over, the Law of singing, the Law of singing secular tunes, the Law of Giving, the Law of life control through numerous meetings, small groups to exercise control and on and on and on. Rubel's PARADIGMISM is a lot more complicated, legalistic, sectarian and EXPENSIVE then the PATTERNISM he spend a life FIGHTING while being paid by those who disagree with him. I sense from his leaving statement that that includes LOTS of elders who have been bullied. [Shades of Lum and Abner: look up both pattern and paradigm]

THE SIMPLE ANSWER IS THAT WHEN THE EUNUCH RECEIVED INSTRUCTIONS ABOUT THE LORD'S SUPPER HE COULD HAVE CONTINUED THE SYNAGOGUE WITHOUT CHANGING A JOT OR TITTLE.

The eunuch came to worship as a Jew. He was undoubtedly connected to the SYNAGOGUE concept as the SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE where they didn't DO patterns, didn't sing and certainly did not play instruments. Judaism was well established in Ethiopia and it became a CENTER of a major wing of Christianity. Ethiopia could have observed the Lord's Supper--as they continued to receive letters. By adding that to the synagogue they would HAVE HAD a Church of Christ. We know for a fact that the synagogue continued as a church: no singing, no music, no preaching, no giving except those who prospered to those who were destitute. It is seen where Paul told Timothy to "give attendance to the public READING of the Word [only]" and to explain the contained doctrine and admonished keeping what they had heard READ:

Any Rabbi or priest would have had an HONEST job--as Paul exampled and commanded--and may have been given a daily dole of food (only) when duty (only) as the early temples (only) or at the synagogues (only).
  • John: <font color=red>What if he had been killed in a chariot wreck and had not sung in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs? What did he know about the number of cups at the Lord's supper? Do you suppose "baptism" did save this man and he went back to Ethiopia and taught others about Jesus? what they must do to be saved as he had been "taught" by the preacher Philip? </font>
God picked the searching eunuch to be a missionary. What if Philip had not preached to him. What if he had not come to Jerusalem. What if Philip had been run over by a horse? What if.....

You have NEVER heard me say anything about singing psalms as an act of worship! Where's the beef? There is NO SINGING command: reading 6th grade, slow group, could hear Paul use the word SPEAK or TEACH or ADMONISH. You cannot do that with MUSIC. Today, you would find Ethiopic worship Catholic more in the Eastern tradition. They turned to FULL IMMERSION of infants along with others but never sprinkled.
  • John: <font color=red>Probably not...He no doubt ran into a Rubel Shelly type of preacher who was teaching Christ among the poor and illiterate and became bogged down in loving and caring for the lost. Hey, now there's a "pattern" worth looking into! </font>
You cannot OBEY the command to LOVE people other than doing what is BEST for them. Jesus did not say: "Go just downtown and PREACH LOVE." YOUR love will not save them. Jesus said: "Preach the gospel." When one BELIEVES then the are not HINDERED from becoming a disciple of Jesus. Then ALREADY BELIEVERS are DISCIPLED BY TWO EQUALLY BINDING ACTIONS:
  • <font color=blue>BAPTIZING
    AND
    TEACHING what Jesus commanded.</font>
Only THESE disciples are called CHRISTIANS.
  • <font color=blue>And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled [SYNAGOGUED] themselves with the church, and TAUGHT much people. And the DISCIPLES were called Christians first in Antioch. Ac.11:26 </font>
It is very hard to find RUBEL'S SECTARIAN LEGALISM in that passage. Conservative churches used to come much closer.

Therefore, Jesus and Luke tell us that ONLY believers who are THEN baptized are disciples and therefore only THEY are called CHRISTIANS. Only God in Christ should ever have to worry about WHUT IF the lady drowned in the baptistry BEFORE she came back up! GAG.

I think Rubel has probably obeyed the COMMISSION to go preach the gospel once or twice on a MISSION VISIT of a few days. Can you verify that? Rubel has been involved in collecting curches of the rich and famous from what I hear. However, that doesn't have ANY BEARING on the Bible. Have you read Rubel's stuff on the Located Missionary?
  • John: <font color=red>Ken, when was the last time you went down into the getto and preached Jesus to a black man down on drugs; and told him to sing a hymn without a mechanical instrument? </font>
At going on 75 and with my health I am well beyond that state: however, I put in my years in Minnesota as a MISSION FIELD. As a young couple we lived close in and worked with a ghetto church. Later organized a new congregation. In Seattle I spend more time knocking doors, working with more black churches, fellowshipped more black member and helped camp more black kids than you and Rubel put together. That COUNTS FOR NOTHING as authority to pervert the Word. You might ighten up on the LAW OF TITHING which Rubel defends and the LAW OF GIVING which is Anti-Biblical.

Early Christians were taught to sing hymns so they could return to kitchen and field and "sing to THEMSELVES and meditate in the heart." They TAUGHT the Bible by SPEAKING the psalms: they DID NOT worship by singing erotic praise songs.
  • John: <font color=red>Just what is your answere to the question, "Here is water; what does hinder me to be baptized?" Is there "now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus" or not? </font>
Philip had preached from ISAIAH. You CANNOT preach the gospel without preaching the water which connects you with the suffering servant. That is why what YOU DON'T know is that Jesus was obeyed, baptism was preached and the enuch ASKED, as at Pentecost, what must I do in the affirmative sense:
  • <font color=blue>And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? Ac.8:36 </font>
There is something which could HINDER baptism and this proves that the Enuch WAS NOT already saved:
  • <font color=blue> And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Acts 8:37 </font>
Assuredly, the eunuch WAS NOT told to be baptized to JOIN THE CHURCH. Re. Lucado and probably Shelly he was not told to be baptized to PLEDGE to be a good boy. Baptism stands between spiritual death and spiritual, resurrection LIFE. You cannot be SAVED without it, you cannot be given A holy spirit and you cannot be A Christian without it. I don't believe that Shelly and York etal have a DIVINE access to surplus words they couldn't shoehorn into the Bible. I don't believe or trust people who get VISIONS to take CHRIST off their name. I don't trust PEOPLE who think that the Lord's Supper is a sacrificial meal where God EATS as we burn the fat.

Salvation is THROUGH faith but BY baptism. THROUGH is likened in the Greek to an arrow which is shot. It whizzes THROUGH the air. However, when the arrow PENETRATES the flesh it goes INTO the heart. That word is EIS. One is ALWAYS baptized INTO Christ even though they travel the path THROUGH faith until they ask: what must I do to be saved. If they DO NOT HAVE FAITH then they are HINDERED or FORBIDDEN baptism because the are not qualified.

Jesus said faith AND baptism saves--because SAID that it is so. Those who do not believe that statement Jesus says are APISTOS or traitors. So DON'T we grasp that the Enuch could not have been SAVED when Philip did not know whether he had made the CONFESSION of the ROCK on Whom the church was built. Peter said of those who had FAITH "If you repent AND are baptized you SHALL BE saved." IF you are saved by FAITH ONLY then you are saved WITHOUT REPENTANCE. If the Enuch was SAVED before baptism then he was saved WITHOUT CONFESSION.

We know that because Luke told us so:
  • <font color=blue>And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. Acts 7:29

    But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him. Acts 7:30</font>
The eunuch KNEW that he must be baptized or Philip would be a traitor to the direct command of Jesus and what Peter had said at Pentecost. The eunuch went on his way REJOICING [full of grace) which is the same as a TIME OF REFRESHING which follows baptism.
  • <font color=blue>Andronikos (g408) an-dron'-ee-kos; from 435 and 3534; man of victory; Andronicos, an Isr.: - Andronicus. </font>
We know that because Jesus told us so:
  • <font color=blue> And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. Mk.16:15

    He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Mark 16:16 </font>
I have read a few Shelly books and reviewed LOTS of his sermons and I don't ever remember Rubel preaching anything SIMILAR to the Bible. He nornally twists the Bible specificially to PROVE that he has the right to TAKE LIBERTIES and to WAGE GRUDGE WARFARE against those who would not BOW when he PIPED. He is like Erasmus who INVENTED faith only: he declared that ALL OF THE DOCTORS before him were just ignorant. Is Rubel right and the whole fellowship WRONG and the whole history for 1525 years WRONG?

I have SPENT and continue to SPEND in order to minister to more people in more countries than all of the churches in Nashville. I have never TAKEN. So, I don't have to give an account

Ken
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John Rebman
John Rebman

April 15th, 2005, 11:58 pm #18

Ken, you have convinced me: you are a wonderful man. Please, do not break your arm at the elbo patting yourself on the back. No doubt, you are a "five talent servant."
Please, do not be too hard on those of us with "two." Oh, I am sure that you believe that most of us are of the "one."
Keep in mind that Paul said, "every man shall receive his own reward according to his labor." No doubt, you will be standing next to James and John, on the Lord's right hand, in the kingdom.

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus." This would have been all you would have had to say about the eunuch with out a dissertation of your life. You and I are to sow the seed. I am sure you are familiar with Matthew 13. The eunuch was just as lost as were the "certain disciples" of John that Luke records in Acts 19. After hearing, these men were baptized "into Jesus." No more "condemnation" from God, only from the Rubel Shelly bashers.
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Jimmy wren
Jimmy wren

April 16th, 2005, 1:43 am #19

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus." This would have been all you would have had to say about the eunuch with out a dissertation of your life."

You did not read it all John. That verse teaches that there are "both" lost and saved even IN CHRIST!

You heard me right John! Read the verse again. "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit". Ro. 8:1

Paul is speaking of "them which are in Christ". Paul cites two "paths" that those which are in Christ can take. Paul says there is no condemnation to them that "walk after the Spirit".

But to those who walk after the flesh: "they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh;...to be carnally minded is death..." Ro. 8:4,6

In Christian Love,

Jimmy



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John Rebman
John Rebman

April 16th, 2005, 1:21 pm #20

Jimmy,
I do not follow yor reasoning, one is either "in Christ" or not.
True, this is a metaphor (This would be impossible: for the Bible says that Christ "is by the right hand of God). The Bible teaches that "santification" is a moral, not a "miraculous process."

You quote from Romans 8:1. Keep in mind, the translators,(especially in the King James) would capitalize the word "Spirit" when ever their theology would allow for this rendering. The men who translated the KJ from the Greek were disciples of John Calvin, I am sure you have studied his theory of "Determinism."

Paul in Romans 8 is speaking of "unity" in the "spirit" or "attitude." You must take in the context when coming to a truthful conclusion of the word "Spirit." I am reading from the KJ; look at Romans 8:15. "For you have not received the spirit (note here the small "s") of bondage again to fear; but you have received the Spirit. The KJ, translators have put in parenthesis [spirit]of adoption, wherby we cry , Abba Father."
Now, Jimmy, just which is the correct rendering, Spirit or spirit? If your theology leads you in the direction of a Determinist you will be in agreement with "Spirit." I oppose Calvinism and believe Paul was referring to "spirit of unity."

I find many of the early reformers and those of the Restoration Movement (and found in our churches today) had difficulty with the Greek word "pneuma." This, is created by the Calvin-Augustinian bias of modern translations.
a. The error interpretation by capitalizion (pneuma)
b. There are 264 appearances of "spirit" in the New
Testament.
Possible renderings:
(1) the Holy Spirit of God: Matthew 28:19.
(2) the attitude of God: Romans 8:14.
(3) a holy spirit or a spirit of holiness: 1 Tess. 1:15
(4) spirituality (vs. worldliness): Gal. 5:16.
(5) the human spirit: Eph. 5:18 (Col. 3:16,17).

The Holy Spirit is often presented in Scripture in terms of "ministry" or "function."
1. John 14:17
2. John 15:26
3. 1 Peter 1:11
4. Titus 3:5, i.e., the intent of the Spirit of God to move
us toward holiness. Also read Romans 1:4.
5. Galatians 4:6.

Jimmy, we must carefully distinguish between "indwelling" and "incarnation." We must understand our relationship to the Holy Spirit in harmony with clear principles governing the God-man relationship.

a. Freedom of the will.
b. Moral vs. miraculous conversion.
c. Human ability and responsibility (spirit).

I am not going to judge a man who has been "baptized into Christ for the remission of sins:" for this man has "put on Christ." Therefore, he is an heir of Abraham's seed according to the promise" (Gal.3:27-29).
I would remind you, this "promise" is the bed rock of the mind of God. "That the blessings might come to the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (Gal. 3:14).

I am not going to allow a law bound "preacher," or a pious "scholar" to take this from my mind if you get my drift? I am standing on the "promise" of God my Savior. Thank God, "there is now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh but after the spirit. For the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus (attitude, or unity), has made me free from the law of sin and death." The Bible tells me that I am a "new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." Brother, that's "Good News" shouted it from the roof top!
Because He lives!
Johnny Reb.

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