PPB
PPB

April 28th, 2005, 8:44 am #11

PMW,

Actually, God calls on Christians to admonish each other (in front of the Church) regarding false teachings and sinful behavior. We are also to be on the lookout for false teachers.

So, are you asking the men on this forum to ignore God and his commandments (spoken through his Son and the Apostles)?

In the case of well known preachers (such as Rubel and Max) that are known to be representing the church of Christ, it is the DUTY of all Christians to speak openly about their false teachings. That Rubel and Max are teaching false doctrine is apparent by even new babes in Christ. That they are following their own agenda is without question.

So, instead of belittling the Christian men on this forum, you should be down on your knees thanking God that there are still Christians out there that follow God's Will and have the strength of love and commitment to stand up and point out the false teachers. Without Christians such as these, we may lose all knowledge of the Truth.

I thank them for their commitment to God and his Truth!
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PMW
PMW

April 28th, 2005, 12:41 pm #12

Wes it is good to hear from you even if you are using a fake ID.

Why not use your real name and computer. Why use the computers at Vanderbilt?

Why not just defend what Rubel preaches for truth instead of complaining about my comments?

Does he preach truth according to the written Word of God? If yes, tell us about it!

Did you, Wes, preach truth when you said "ask me tomorrow, I may have a different take on it."

Both of us could benifit greatly from a discussion of the "change agent" Rubel Shelly.

To answer your question "Is Rubel a Church of Christ preacher. NO!
He preaches for a Community named Woodmont Hills. There is no "Church of Christ" in that church's name.

You said "if not a coC, then how is it any of your business?"

Jimmy answers: Same as you. You may have a love for Rubel and do not like to see anyone expose him as a false teacher in public. Therfore you write me with the desire that I stop.

Well I have a love for the Lord and His Church and when I see someone trying to tear it down and pervert the teachings of the written Word of God I want them to stop, or change, and come back to the simple teachings of the truth. So I point out the errors in Rubel's sermons for all to see.

Some chose not to see it. So be it, but I must continue to defend TRUTH.

Now you may not be Wes. I just called you that, because you sent this post from Vanderbilt. So I assume that you know both Rubel and Wes.
If you believe that Ruble teaches truth, tell us about it!

In Christian Love,

Jimmy
Jimmy,
You are correct. I do know Rubel and Wes. In fact I attend Woodmont Hills. However Wes has been back in Texas for sometime. God has used Woodmont to bring many of us back to Him. It is such a wonderful place. It is so sad to see people like yourself who only want to destroy good people because they disagree with you. You can use the line "they disagree with God" all you want. They don't, just your view of things. Again I say I will pray that you can find the peace that thousands of others have found once they leave pride and come to know the Father.
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Jimmy Wren
Jimmy Wren

April 28th, 2005, 1:29 pm #13

Thanks for the reply pmw.

We are glad to know that people at Vanderbilt come to this site to read the truth.

Your comments are welcome at any of my threads. My only request is that you try your best to speak where the Bible speaks and not defend the person of Rubel or anyone else.

I use book, chapter and verse to show how wrong the "change agents", such as Ruble, are. I ASK YOU TO USE BOOK, CHAPTER, AND VERSE TO SHOW THAT RUBEL IS RIGHT IF YOU BELIEVE HIM TO BE.

OUR DEFENSE IS FOR THE GOSPEL. OUR CONTENDING IS FOR "THE" FAITH. While we wish harm to no one and have only love for Rubel and all other "change agents", i.e., a love that they may come to embrace the truth. We have a much greater love for our Lord and His Church and His Word.

I should warn you that my post are just beginning to heat up. It seems like MOST of the "philosophers" are connected to EITHER WILLOW CREEK or RICK WARREN at SADDLEBACK INCLUDING YOUR BUDDY DALLAS WILLARD.

Jimmy welcomes Vanderbilt truth seekers to the board of CM.


In Christian Love,

Jimmy
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pmw
pmw

April 28th, 2005, 4:41 pm #14

Jimmy,
This post will end my communication with you. Thanks for confirming what I have thought for 20 years. I will continue to pray for you and others on this site. God promised Satan would not prevail against His church. I believe that promise, and I can see the glorious things God is doing in His church through good men like Max and Rubel. Have a great day.
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

April 28th, 2005, 5:08 pm #15

We have looked at several of Rubel’s sermons after which he has quoted or referenced Dallas Willard’s work. There are thoughts in Rubel’s sermons that can also be found in the works of Dallas Willard.

Several years ago Rubel preached a lesson on “The Sermon on the Mount.” A short time later Steve Flatt memorized and presented the same lesson to Madison. If you look at Dallas Willard’s works you can find some similarities of it there also.

It appears that Rubel is a close student of the works of Dallas Willard. Since these similarities exist we thought that in this thread we might do a little comparing of Rubel and Dallas both personally and doctrinally.

I will begin by warning you that sometimes Dallas is for this, other times he is against it. I have posted a partial interview with Dallas Willard on another thread in which he seems to be warning against entertainment in the church. Yet in another interview he is suggestion showing movies at church. So make of this what you will.

Let’s begin by seeing who Dallas Willard is. These are excerpts from an interview by Hope McPherson.

Q: Given that philosophy, do you see the secular university, the University of Southern California, as a good place to be?

Dallas Willard: Well, I think it is. I'm not here by my good sense because, truthfully, I was pastoring a church and teaching school when I became so convinced of my ignorance about God and the soul that I thought I was a public hazard. That's when I went to graduate school at the University of Wisconsin. I didn't intend to become a philosophy professor or any kind of professor. I thought I would study a few years and then return to the pastorate. But I seemed to be led onward and I did finish the degree. I hadn't even intended to do a degree -- just study for my own benefit.

After I finished my Ph.D., they invited me to stay on the following year as a member of the faculty. During that year, the Lord said to me that if I stay in the church, I will be limited to the church and the university would be closed to me. If I went into the university, on the other hand, the churches would be open to me.

Jimmy comments: Notice that in this interview the Doctor says right up front “…the Lord said to me…” The man claims a direct contact to the Lord.

Like Rubel and the “change agents” they hear things that have not be said. They see things that are not there. And they read things that have not been written. And all of this is okay because the “Lord” speaks to them.

Now let’s look at Rubel. “Yes, there are a couple of stirrings…One is to be very directly involved in the training of young men and women for ministry…I was not prepared for the thing I wound up doing for all my adult life…Christian colleges and seminaries are doing a good job in most cases…there is a great need for some people who have invested our lives in local churches to be involved in training would-be ministers in the real-life, practical, and hands-on side of what to expect. And the second is to participate in planting a new church somewhere - starting from scratch and working off a blank sheet of paper.

Dallas Willard says by staying at the University churches would be open to him. Now Rubel laments that he was not prepared for the things that he had been doing all of his adult life and so he wants to start training “young” men and women for ministry and next he wants to help plant a church – starting from scratch.

Sound as if Rubel would like to be Dallas, don’t it? You must admit that both men want to be bigger then the “church”. Both men want to influence “young” men and women in the church. Also keep in mind that the Lord spoke to Dallas. Now let’s see if the Lord spoke to Rubel.

Dan Dozier, On behalf of the shepherds… we announced that we would spend January being still and listening for the voice of God. We had no idea God might say to some of us things that the rest of us did not want to hear… It was clear to us that God had spoken and that it was not appropriate for us to try again to steer Rubel away from God's leading.

Shelly said it like this, “Doing something to which I believe God is calling.”

Similarities of the two men in this post:

Both men claim to be God called.

Both men want to be bigger then the church.

Both men want to train “young” men and women.

Neither man was prepared for the local work of preaching.

Both are Philosophers; Rubel hold doctorate in philosophy from Vanderbilt.

In Christian Love,

Jimmy

One of the problems with EXCITING music and an EXCITING preacher is that history knows that they can DISABLE the rational or spiritual mind and pour false teaching into the emotional side. I hear you emoting and judging truth by BODY COUNT. I remember a church down the street which had to DOUBLE or or more their sheepfold to find room and feed for those who have BEEN REMOVED from your sheepfold.

I can PARSE one of Rubel's sermons and hear him DOING what he promises to do: to take liberties to construct HIS own narrative so YOU can put yourself in the role of Moses or Jesus. Rubel denies the inspiration of the Word. He claims that "work out your own salvation" means "work out your own SCRIPTURES for your CHANGED culture." Rubel claims in the Jesus Proposal that no individual has the right to read, interpret and speak any of the new revelation--through his and John's NEW GLASSES outside of the community which means COMMUNE.

At the same time people tell me that Rubel said NO SUCH THING. That is because you are not TESTING THE SPIRITS. Rubel and you have sowed more discord than anyone in church history. His POINTS of attack--music, women's role, baptism, the cursed PYRAMID ministry system God inflicted on Israel when they demanded a KING, and his summary dismissal of DEACONS who have a role in the church were PREACHER does not, inspiration, the validity of the epistles and more--are ANTI-Biblical and therefore I believe Anti-Christian.
  • <font color=blue>I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed. Jer 23:25

    How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart; Jer 23: 26
    • Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams, which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal. Jer 23: 27
    The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell (celebrate) a dream; and he that hath my word (dabar), let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the Lord. Jer 23: 28

    Is not my word like as a fire? saith the Lord; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces? Jer 23: 29
    • Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that steal my words every one from his neighbour. Jer 23: 30
    Behold, I am against the prophets, saith the Lord, that use their tongues, and say, He saith. Jer 23: 31
    • Behold, I am against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the Lord, and do tell (celebrate) them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness (frivolity) ; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the Lord. Jer 23:32
    And when this people, or the prophet, or a priest, shall ask thee, saying, What is the burden (singing) of the Lord? thou shalt then say unto them, What burden? I will even forsake you, saith the Lord. Jer 23: 33
    • And as for the prophet, and the priest, and the people, that shall say, The burden of the Lord, I will even punish that man and his house. Jer 23: 34
    Thus shall ye say every one to his neighbour, and every one to his brother, What hath the Lord answered? and, What hath the Lord spoken? Jer 23: 35

    And the burden (song) of the Lord shall ye mention no more; for every mans word shall be his burden (song):
    • for ye have perverted the words of the living God, of the Lord of hosts our God. Jer 23: 36
    Thus shalt thou say to the prophet, What hath the Lord answered thee? and, What hath the Lord spoken? Jer 23: 37 </font>
Those who are FAITHFUL cannot be popular: they must GO OUT and they WILL be despised and rejected of men. Rubel writes all of that dry onion skin material on YOUR PAY: does he give YOU a cut.

Ken
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Jimmy Wren
Jimmy Wren

April 28th, 2005, 6:49 pm #16

Jimmy,
This post will end my communication with you. Thanks for confirming what I have thought for 20 years. I will continue to pray for you and others on this site. God promised Satan would not prevail against His church. I believe that promise, and I can see the glorious things God is doing in His church through good men like Max and Rubel. Have a great day.
Thanks for saying "good-bye"

Actually you said "end my communication" so I am hoping that you will continue to read and study these boards.

I would feel much better about you if you would find yourself a sound Church of Christ to attend. Get out of the "community" church that teaches everybody is all right. I know that at least one professor from Vanderbilt attends that same church but he like Rubel are leading you down the broad, not the narrow, path.

In Christian Love,

Jimmy

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Jimmy Wren
Jimmy Wren

April 29th, 2005, 1:11 pm #17

We have looked at several of Rubel’s sermons after which he has quoted or referenced Dallas Willard’s work. There are thoughts in Rubel’s sermons that can also be found in the works of Dallas Willard.

Several years ago Rubel preached a lesson on “The Sermon on the Mount.” A short time later Steve Flatt memorized and presented the same lesson to Madison. If you look at Dallas Willard’s works you can find some similarities of it there also.

It appears that Rubel is a close student of the works of Dallas Willard. Since these similarities exist we thought that in this thread we might do a little comparing of Rubel and Dallas both personally and doctrinally.

I will begin by warning you that sometimes Dallas is for this, other times he is against it. I have posted a partial interview with Dallas Willard on another thread in which he seems to be warning against entertainment in the church. Yet in another interview he is suggestion showing movies at church. So make of this what you will.

Let’s begin by seeing who Dallas Willard is. These are excerpts from an interview by Hope McPherson.

Q: Given that philosophy, do you see the secular university, the University of Southern California, as a good place to be?

Dallas Willard: Well, I think it is. I'm not here by my good sense because, truthfully, I was pastoring a church and teaching school when I became so convinced of my ignorance about God and the soul that I thought I was a public hazard. That's when I went to graduate school at the University of Wisconsin. I didn't intend to become a philosophy professor or any kind of professor. I thought I would study a few years and then return to the pastorate. But I seemed to be led onward and I did finish the degree. I hadn't even intended to do a degree -- just study for my own benefit.

After I finished my Ph.D., they invited me to stay on the following year as a member of the faculty. During that year, the Lord said to me that if I stay in the church, I will be limited to the church and the university would be closed to me. If I went into the university, on the other hand, the churches would be open to me.

Jimmy comments: Notice that in this interview the Doctor says right up front “…the Lord said to me…” The man claims a direct contact to the Lord.

Like Rubel and the “change agents” they hear things that have not be said. They see things that are not there. And they read things that have not been written. And all of this is okay because the “Lord” speaks to them.

Now let’s look at Rubel. “Yes, there are a couple of stirrings…One is to be very directly involved in the training of young men and women for ministry…I was not prepared for the thing I wound up doing for all my adult life…Christian colleges and seminaries are doing a good job in most cases…there is a great need for some people who have invested our lives in local churches to be involved in training would-be ministers in the real-life, practical, and hands-on side of what to expect. And the second is to participate in planting a new church somewhere - starting from scratch and working off a blank sheet of paper.

Dallas Willard says by staying at the University churches would be open to him. Now Rubel laments that he was not prepared for the things that he had been doing all of his adult life and so he wants to start training “young” men and women for ministry and next he wants to help plant a church – starting from scratch.

Sound as if Rubel would like to be Dallas, don’t it? You must admit that both men want to be bigger then the “church”. Both men want to influence “young” men and women in the church. Also keep in mind that the Lord spoke to Dallas. Now let’s see if the Lord spoke to Rubel.

Dan Dozier, On behalf of the shepherds… we announced that we would spend January being still and listening for the voice of God. We had no idea God might say to some of us things that the rest of us did not want to hear… It was clear to us that God had spoken and that it was not appropriate for us to try again to steer Rubel away from God's leading.

Shelly said it like this, “Doing something to which I believe God is calling.”

Similarities of the two men in this post:

Both men claim to be God called.

Both men want to be bigger then the church.

Both men want to train “young” men and women.

Neither man was prepared for the local work of preaching.

Both are Philosophers; Rubel hold doctorate in philosophy from Vanderbilt.

In Christian Love,

Jimmy

<Jimmy> To all of our friends at Vanderbilt; we decided to use one of Rubel’s lessons to show the danger of his teachings. Rubel, alias the 180’er, will preach and teach one thing today and another tomorrow. Rubel’s teachings have changed more than once. If you study his teachings closely you will see how he has changed again just in the last four years.

__________________________________________
  • <font size=4>DID CHRIST ESTABLISH ONE OR MANY CHURCHES? </font>
    BY RUBEL SHELLY


    <font size=3 color=indigo face=Times New Roman>How often have you heard preachers exhort people to “get saved” and “join the church of your choice”? How many times have you heard someone express his opinion that “all the different denominations are just different roads to the same place”? These are among the most generally held notions in the religious world today. People honestly think that God approves the many religious faiths or our day, that He is pleased by the existence of so many different denominations and that He views all of them as alternate routes to heaven!

    Most people would be terribly shocked if anyone suggested that many sincere religious people are going to be lost eternally. They would likely cry, “Only God knows who is going to be saved or lost! You are judging and trying to play God when you suggest that you can know who is right and who is wrong in religions”.

    DO MEN HAVE THE RIGHT TO “JUDGE”?

    But is it the case that God alone knows who is going to be saved or lost? Not at all! The reason for His having revealed His will to men through the Bible is so that we too can know what constitutes a saved state before Him. He inspired the writing of Scripture for the purpose of enabling us to distinguish between truth and error, right and wrong, salvation and condemnation!

    The Word of God commands us to distinguish between truth and error. It requires us to support the one and oppose the other. “If any one cometh unto you, and bringeth not this teaching, receive him not into your house, and give him no greeting: for he that giveth him greeting partaketh in his evil works.” (2 John 10-1l). If it is beyond our power to distinguish between the true doctrine which saves and false doctrine which condemns how could this passage possibly have any meaning to us? The same inspired writer also said: “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world.” (1 John 4:1). If this is not a clear requirement that men must examine, test or judge the doctrines taught by religious teachers, human language is unintelligible and meaningless!

    When Jesus said, “Judge not, that ye be not judged”, He was forbidding capricious judgments and petty faultfinding. He was not forbidding us to judge between truth and error. He himself judged certain Pharisees to be blind” and “full of hypocrisy and iniquity” (Malt. 23). How Satan has deceived men by confusing this matter in their minds. He has brought about a situation wherein men no longer value the truth and are willing to allow practically any sort of false doctrine to go unchallenged!

    Jesus gave the correct interpretation of this entire matter of judging when he said, “Judge not according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment.” (John 7:24). Notice that he commands us to judge in this text! We are not to judge capriciously on the basis of outward appearance, e.g., that this man cannot be telling the truth because he is of a different race or because what he is saying is different from what I have always thought. But we must, on the other hand, judge ‘righteous judgment”. We must judge right and wrong based on the revelation of truth which is the Word of God!

    Viewed in the light of Bible teaching, the notion that one church is just as good as another and that the good people of all churches will be saved must be judged a false doctrine. Please notice what the Bible says on this matter and be willing to accept the Word of God!

    NEW TESTAMENT TEACHING ABOUT THE CHURCH

    First, the New Testament teaches that Christ established only one church and desires for all men to be united in it. On that notable occasion when Peter confessed his faith in Jesus as the Christ, the Son of the living God”, the Lord responded by saying, Upon this rock (i.e., the foundation fact that Jesus is the Christ and the Son of God) I will build thy church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.” (Matt. 1616-18). It s not without significance that he spoke of his church in the singular as opposed to the plural. There was no promise about churches and no indication that he wanted his kingdom divided up into warring sects. The evidence, in fact, is altogether to the contrary. Just before his death, Jesus prayed, ‘Neither for these only (i.e., the apostles) do I pray, but for them also that believe on me through their word (i.e., people converted by the gospel the apostles would preach); that they may all be one (John 17:20-21a).

    Second, the New Testament apostles and prophets recognized only one church. Paul explicitly stated, “There is only body (Eph. 4:4). That “body”, according to his own statement earlier in the same epistle, is the church. “And he put all things in subjection under his feet, and gave him to be head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all.” (Eph. 1:22-23). How many bodies or churches did Paul recognize? What was his inspired teaching on the matter? He said, “There is ONE body.” The ideal situation which Paul desired among men was “that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfected together in the same mind and in the same judgment” (1 Cor. 1:10).

    Third, the New Testament teaches that the saved are all added to the one church. There is no tract of the notion of “getting saved” by one process and then “joining the church” by another process in the Word of God. The same conditions which apply to salvation also apply to membership in the church.

    When Christ saves a man by his blood, he automatically adds that man to his church! How can we know this? For one thing, Scripture plainly declares that Christ is “the savior of the body” (Eph. 5:23). For another, Paul taught that redemption through the blood of Christ is available only in his body. “In whom (i.e., Christ and his spiritual body, the church) we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses according to the riches of his grace.” (Eph. 1:7; cf. Acts 4:12). Finally, the same acts of obedience which bring an individual into a saved state also put him into Christ. According to Peter’s statement on the day the church was established, baptism is necessary “unto the remission of your sins” (Acts 2:38). Yet baptism is also declared to be the act whereby one is granted entrance into the body of Christ. “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ.” (Gal. 3:27). These facts constitute irrefutable proof that Christ has only one church and that all saved men are members of it.

    According to the latest tally, there are approximately 300 different religious bodies, or “churches”, in America. Yet, when viewed from Biblical perspective, we must say that there is actually only ONE church and that all the other so-called churches are nothing more than false churches and human denominations. Just as there are many alleged “gods” yet we know that there is really only ONE true God, so are there many alleged “churches.” Yet we know that there is really only ONE true church!

    REASON SHOWS THE FOLLY OF MANY CHURCHES

    Aside from the clear evidence already introduced from the New Testament, our own reasoning powers tell us that it is not possible for all 300 of today’s churches” to be right and approved of God. Suppose that one, man says the earth is round and the other says it is flat. Can both be right? Of course not, for two contradictory positions cannot both be right. Both may be wrong, but they cannot both be right! Suppose that one man denies the existence of God and the other affirms his existence. These are the only two possibilities about God’s existence. Either He exists or He does not! Thus one man is right in his position and the other is wrong, but both cannot be right!

    Let us now apply this same principle to the situation among religious bodies in America. One church teaches that children are born totally depraved in sin and another teaches they are born pure and sinless. Can both be right? One church says that baptism is essential unto salvation and another says it is nonessential. Can both be right? One church says that instrumental music in worship is acceptable unto God and another says it is unauthorized and sinful. Can both be right? Only an irrational or dishonest man would say that contradictory positions can both be true!

    Since Christ’s one church is “the pillar and ground of the truth” (1 Tim. 3:15), it is obvious that no church which teaches false doctrines can be his true church. Someone may object. Are you saying that your church is the only true church and that everybody who disagrees with you is wrong!” Not at all! I am saying that Christ’s one church revealed in the New Testament is the only true church and that everybody who disagrees with the Word of God is wrong.

    Truth and error in religion are not determined by human wisdom, but by divine wisdom revealed in the gospel (1 Cor. 1:21). Right and wrong are not determined by the number of people who subscribe to and practice a given doctrine. The Word of God and it alone can show what is right and wrong in religion. His word is truth (John 17:17) and is “profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness: that the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work” (2 Tim. 3:16-17).

    UNITY BASED ON THE WORD OF GOD

    The only reliable guide in religion is the Word of God. The prophet Jeremiah said, “0 Jehovah, I know that the way of man is not in himself; it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.” (Jer. 10:23), He recognized, as all thinking men eventually must, that man is not able to guide himself in religion. We must be able to appeal to an authority higher than ourselves. Solomon pointed out the danger of man’s efforts to chart his own course in spiritual mlatters when he wrote: ‘There is a way which seemeth right unto a man; but the end thereof are the ways of death.” (Prov. 14:12). Not only does the Bible declare the folly of using human standards in religion, but human experience teaches the same thing. The present existence of nearly 300 different religious bodies is the direct result of departing from divine authority

    The all-sufficiency and alone-sufficiency of the Holy Scripture as our guide in religion is a fundamental teaching of Christianity. Christ gave the Holy Spirit to his apostles to guide them in speaking and writing his message as we now have it in the New Testament. (Cf. John 14:26). This message in its written form forms a fixed and objective standard for religious beliefs and practices.

    Men will never come together on the creeds, theories and speculations of men. But they can come together on the Bible as the common authority for united faith and action. Through a dedicated and diligent study of the Scripture, each man can learn the truth. Then it will no longer be a matter of one man’s belief over against that of someone else, but ‘the will of our Lord Jesus Christ”. Then it will no longer be a matter of one man’s church versus another’s, but the church of Christ. Thus is demonstrated the fact that our primary concern must be the study of the Word of God to determine the means by which we can be members of the one true church for which Christ died and of which he is the head and savior.

    Christ and his apostles taught that in order to be saved a man must hear the gospel of Christ and believe that he is the only begotten Son of God. Jesus said, “Except ye believe that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.” (John 8:24). On the basis of such a faith in Jesus Christ, one must then make the decision to make a once-for-all-time clean break with sin, to repent. “Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish,” said Jesus (Luke 13:3). He must then confess his faith in Jesus before men, for “with the mouth confession is made unto salvation” (Rom. 10:10). And finally, in order to receive the remission of sins, one must be immersed in water. “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.” (Mark 16:16).

    When a man thus hears the gospel, believes it, repents of his sins, confesses Christ with his mouth and is baptized, he has done the things Christ and the apostles taught men to do in the first century in order to be saved. If we do the same things they did, will the results not be the same? Will we not receive the remission of our sins? (Cf. Acts 2:38). Will we not be added to the one church of which the New Testament speaks? (Cf. Acts 2:47). If not, why not?

    But someone asks, “Is it really that important that we be right in all these matters? What difference will it make if we are wrong about some things so long as we are sincere?” The difference between being right and wrong in religion is the difference between salvation and condemnation. Truth means purity, for it is only in one’s obedience to the truth that he can be born again. Peter wrote:
    “Seeing ye have purified your souls in your obedience to the truth unto unfeigned love of the brethren, love one another from the heart fervently: having been begotten again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which liveth and abideth. (1 Pet. 1:22-23).

    How had these people purified their souls? In their obedience to the truth. What was the result? They had been ‘begotten again” or born anew. On the other hand, error means condemnation! “And for this cause God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be judged who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thess. 2:11-12). If men prefer to believe lies instead of the truth, God will not stop them. He has made us free and has given us the power of choice. A man can use that freedom to choose error and do things sinful, but God will judge him for his deeds! There is likely no more widely circulated or generally believed lie today than the one which tells people that they can “join the church of your choice” and be confident that ‘so long as you are sincere in what you do God will accept your service”. Yes, all such sentiments to truth and men must be members of the one church about which they can read in the New Testament!

    CONCLUSION

    Will the good people of all churches be saved? No. Only those people who have purified their souls in their obedience to the truth and have thereby been added to Christ’s one church possess the valid hope of eternal life!

    Does the real church of Christ exist on earth today or has a human denomination simply taken the name “Church of Christ” unto itself? Christ’s church--the New Testament church-- does indeed exist today. It is composed of all those people who have been saved in their obedience to the gospel of Christ. It is organized just as the church of Christ was organized in the first century. It wears the same name and worships in the same manner. It teaches the one faith and exhorts its members to live lives of purity and service to God and men. Why should you not become a member of that church by following the plan of salvation taught by God and his apostles? </font>
__________________________________________

<Jimmy> we will have more to say about this lesson from Rubel on a later post. But for the time I just want to echo Rubel’s words; “the New Testament church—does indeed exist today”. But as most of you can see, the church that Rubel described is not anything like the church that Rubel preaches for today! NOT A BIT!

The church that Rubel described is exactly like the Church that I am a member of! Praise God!

In Christian Love,

Jimmy

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George
George

April 29th, 2005, 3:51 pm #18

<Rubel> "Only an irrational or dishonest man would say that contradictory positions can both be true!"

<George> One of the MANY sides of Rubel.

Rubel gives a true and honest lesson from the Bible about the New Testament Church of christ. I may say more on this later.

For the time I would like to point out Rubel's arrogant attitude.

In this lesson Rubel teaches that his church is the only church that is going to heaven. Every one else is LOST if you belong to another church.

Now notice what Rubel teaches. Everyone that holds the views that all belonging to any and every church that knows Christ will be saved and everyone that belongs to the New Testament Church of Christ as he presented in this lesson WILL be LOST.

It is the same "MEAN" old Rubel still trying to have his WAY of who will be "SAVED" and who will be "LOST".


Serving Him,

George
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Jesse Tubbs
Jesse Tubbs

April 29th, 2005, 3:53 pm #19

<Jimmy> To all of our friends at Vanderbilt; we decided to use one of Rubel’s lessons to show the danger of his teachings. Rubel, alias the 180’er, will preach and teach one thing today and another tomorrow. Rubel’s teachings have changed more than once. If you study his teachings closely you will see how he has changed again just in the last four years.

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  • <font size=4>DID CHRIST ESTABLISH ONE OR MANY CHURCHES? </font>
    BY RUBEL SHELLY


    <font size=3 color=indigo face=Times New Roman>How often have you heard preachers exhort people to “get saved” and “join the church of your choice”? How many times have you heard someone express his opinion that “all the different denominations are just different roads to the same place”? These are among the most generally held notions in the religious world today. People honestly think that God approves the many religious faiths or our day, that He is pleased by the existence of so many different denominations and that He views all of them as alternate routes to heaven!

    Most people would be terribly shocked if anyone suggested that many sincere religious people are going to be lost eternally. They would likely cry, “Only God knows who is going to be saved or lost! You are judging and trying to play God when you suggest that you can know who is right and who is wrong in religions”.

    DO MEN HAVE THE RIGHT TO “JUDGE”?

    But is it the case that God alone knows who is going to be saved or lost? Not at all! The reason for His having revealed His will to men through the Bible is so that we too can know what constitutes a saved state before Him. He inspired the writing of Scripture for the purpose of enabling us to distinguish between truth and error, right and wrong, salvation and condemnation!

    The Word of God commands us to distinguish between truth and error. It requires us to support the one and oppose the other. “If any one cometh unto you, and bringeth not this teaching, receive him not into your house, and give him no greeting: for he that giveth him greeting partaketh in his evil works.” (2 John 10-1l). If it is beyond our power to distinguish between the true doctrine which saves and false doctrine which condemns how could this passage possibly have any meaning to us? The same inspired writer also said: “Beloved, believe not every spirit, but prove the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets are gone out into the world.” (1 John 4:1). If this is not a clear requirement that men must examine, test or judge the doctrines taught by religious teachers, human language is unintelligible and meaningless!

    When Jesus said, “Judge not, that ye be not judged”, He was forbidding capricious judgments and petty faultfinding. He was not forbidding us to judge between truth and error. He himself judged certain Pharisees to be blind” and “full of hypocrisy and iniquity” (Malt. 23). How Satan has deceived men by confusing this matter in their minds. He has brought about a situation wherein men no longer value the truth and are willing to allow practically any sort of false doctrine to go unchallenged!

    Jesus gave the correct interpretation of this entire matter of judging when he said, “Judge not according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment.” (John 7:24). Notice that he commands us to judge in this text! We are not to judge capriciously on the basis of outward appearance, e.g., that this man cannot be telling the truth because he is of a different race or because what he is saying is different from what I have always thought. But we must, on the other hand, judge ‘righteous judgment”. We must judge right and wrong based on the revelation of truth which is the Word of God!

    Viewed in the light of Bible teaching, the notion that one church is just as good as another and that the good people of all churches will be saved must be judged a false doctrine. Please notice what the Bible says on this matter and be willing to accept the Word of God!

    NEW TESTAMENT TEACHING ABOUT THE CHURCH

    First, the New Testament teaches that Christ established only one church and desires for all men to be united in it. On that notable occasion when Peter confessed his faith in Jesus as the Christ, the Son of the living God”, the Lord responded by saying, Upon this rock (i.e., the foundation fact that Jesus is the Christ and the Son of God) I will build thy church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.” (Matt. 1616-18). It s not without significance that he spoke of his church in the singular as opposed to the plural. There was no promise about churches and no indication that he wanted his kingdom divided up into warring sects. The evidence, in fact, is altogether to the contrary. Just before his death, Jesus prayed, ‘Neither for these only (i.e., the apostles) do I pray, but for them also that believe on me through their word (i.e., people converted by the gospel the apostles would preach); that they may all be one (John 17:20-21a).

    Second, the New Testament apostles and prophets recognized only one church. Paul explicitly stated, “There is only body (Eph. 4:4). That “body”, according to his own statement earlier in the same epistle, is the church. “And he put all things in subjection under his feet, and gave him to be head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all.” (Eph. 1:22-23). How many bodies or churches did Paul recognize? What was his inspired teaching on the matter? He said, “There is ONE body.” The ideal situation which Paul desired among men was “that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfected together in the same mind and in the same judgment” (1 Cor. 1:10).

    Third, the New Testament teaches that the saved are all added to the one church. There is no tract of the notion of “getting saved” by one process and then “joining the church” by another process in the Word of God. The same conditions which apply to salvation also apply to membership in the church.

    When Christ saves a man by his blood, he automatically adds that man to his church! How can we know this? For one thing, Scripture plainly declares that Christ is “the savior of the body” (Eph. 5:23). For another, Paul taught that redemption through the blood of Christ is available only in his body. “In whom (i.e., Christ and his spiritual body, the church) we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses according to the riches of his grace.” (Eph. 1:7; cf. Acts 4:12). Finally, the same acts of obedience which bring an individual into a saved state also put him into Christ. According to Peter’s statement on the day the church was established, baptism is necessary “unto the remission of your sins” (Acts 2:38). Yet baptism is also declared to be the act whereby one is granted entrance into the body of Christ. “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ.” (Gal. 3:27). These facts constitute irrefutable proof that Christ has only one church and that all saved men are members of it.

    According to the latest tally, there are approximately 300 different religious bodies, or “churches”, in America. Yet, when viewed from Biblical perspective, we must say that there is actually only ONE church and that all the other so-called churches are nothing more than false churches and human denominations. Just as there are many alleged “gods” yet we know that there is really only ONE true God, so are there many alleged “churches.” Yet we know that there is really only ONE true church!

    REASON SHOWS THE FOLLY OF MANY CHURCHES

    Aside from the clear evidence already introduced from the New Testament, our own reasoning powers tell us that it is not possible for all 300 of today’s churches” to be right and approved of God. Suppose that one, man says the earth is round and the other says it is flat. Can both be right? Of course not, for two contradictory positions cannot both be right. Both may be wrong, but they cannot both be right! Suppose that one man denies the existence of God and the other affirms his existence. These are the only two possibilities about God’s existence. Either He exists or He does not! Thus one man is right in his position and the other is wrong, but both cannot be right!

    Let us now apply this same principle to the situation among religious bodies in America. One church teaches that children are born totally depraved in sin and another teaches they are born pure and sinless. Can both be right? One church says that baptism is essential unto salvation and another says it is nonessential. Can both be right? One church says that instrumental music in worship is acceptable unto God and another says it is unauthorized and sinful. Can both be right? Only an irrational or dishonest man would say that contradictory positions can both be true!

    Since Christ’s one church is “the pillar and ground of the truth” (1 Tim. 3:15), it is obvious that no church which teaches false doctrines can be his true church. Someone may object. Are you saying that your church is the only true church and that everybody who disagrees with you is wrong!” Not at all! I am saying that Christ’s one church revealed in the New Testament is the only true church and that everybody who disagrees with the Word of God is wrong.

    Truth and error in religion are not determined by human wisdom, but by divine wisdom revealed in the gospel (1 Cor. 1:21). Right and wrong are not determined by the number of people who subscribe to and practice a given doctrine. The Word of God and it alone can show what is right and wrong in religion. His word is truth (John 17:17) and is “profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness: that the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work” (2 Tim. 3:16-17).

    UNITY BASED ON THE WORD OF GOD

    The only reliable guide in religion is the Word of God. The prophet Jeremiah said, “0 Jehovah, I know that the way of man is not in himself; it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.” (Jer. 10:23), He recognized, as all thinking men eventually must, that man is not able to guide himself in religion. We must be able to appeal to an authority higher than ourselves. Solomon pointed out the danger of man’s efforts to chart his own course in spiritual mlatters when he wrote: ‘There is a way which seemeth right unto a man; but the end thereof are the ways of death.” (Prov. 14:12). Not only does the Bible declare the folly of using human standards in religion, but human experience teaches the same thing. The present existence of nearly 300 different religious bodies is the direct result of departing from divine authority

    The all-sufficiency and alone-sufficiency of the Holy Scripture as our guide in religion is a fundamental teaching of Christianity. Christ gave the Holy Spirit to his apostles to guide them in speaking and writing his message as we now have it in the New Testament. (Cf. John 14:26). This message in its written form forms a fixed and objective standard for religious beliefs and practices.

    Men will never come together on the creeds, theories and speculations of men. But they can come together on the Bible as the common authority for united faith and action. Through a dedicated and diligent study of the Scripture, each man can learn the truth. Then it will no longer be a matter of one man’s belief over against that of someone else, but ‘the will of our Lord Jesus Christ”. Then it will no longer be a matter of one man’s church versus another’s, but the church of Christ. Thus is demonstrated the fact that our primary concern must be the study of the Word of God to determine the means by which we can be members of the one true church for which Christ died and of which he is the head and savior.

    Christ and his apostles taught that in order to be saved a man must hear the gospel of Christ and believe that he is the only begotten Son of God. Jesus said, “Except ye believe that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.” (John 8:24). On the basis of such a faith in Jesus Christ, one must then make the decision to make a once-for-all-time clean break with sin, to repent. “Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish,” said Jesus (Luke 13:3). He must then confess his faith in Jesus before men, for “with the mouth confession is made unto salvation” (Rom. 10:10). And finally, in order to receive the remission of sins, one must be immersed in water. “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.” (Mark 16:16).

    When a man thus hears the gospel, believes it, repents of his sins, confesses Christ with his mouth and is baptized, he has done the things Christ and the apostles taught men to do in the first century in order to be saved. If we do the same things they did, will the results not be the same? Will we not receive the remission of our sins? (Cf. Acts 2:38). Will we not be added to the one church of which the New Testament speaks? (Cf. Acts 2:47). If not, why not?

    But someone asks, “Is it really that important that we be right in all these matters? What difference will it make if we are wrong about some things so long as we are sincere?” The difference between being right and wrong in religion is the difference between salvation and condemnation. Truth means purity, for it is only in one’s obedience to the truth that he can be born again. Peter wrote:
    “Seeing ye have purified your souls in your obedience to the truth unto unfeigned love of the brethren, love one another from the heart fervently: having been begotten again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which liveth and abideth. (1 Pet. 1:22-23).

    How had these people purified their souls? In their obedience to the truth. What was the result? They had been ‘begotten again” or born anew. On the other hand, error means condemnation! “And for this cause God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie: that they all might be judged who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thess. 2:11-12). If men prefer to believe lies instead of the truth, God will not stop them. He has made us free and has given us the power of choice. A man can use that freedom to choose error and do things sinful, but God will judge him for his deeds! There is likely no more widely circulated or generally believed lie today than the one which tells people that they can “join the church of your choice” and be confident that ‘so long as you are sincere in what you do God will accept your service”. Yes, all such sentiments to truth and men must be members of the one church about which they can read in the New Testament!

    CONCLUSION

    Will the good people of all churches be saved? No. Only those people who have purified their souls in their obedience to the truth and have thereby been added to Christ’s one church possess the valid hope of eternal life!

    Does the real church of Christ exist on earth today or has a human denomination simply taken the name “Church of Christ” unto itself? Christ’s church--the New Testament church-- does indeed exist today. It is composed of all those people who have been saved in their obedience to the gospel of Christ. It is organized just as the church of Christ was organized in the first century. It wears the same name and worships in the same manner. It teaches the one faith and exhorts its members to live lives of purity and service to God and men. Why should you not become a member of that church by following the plan of salvation taught by God and his apostles? </font>
__________________________________________

<Jimmy> we will have more to say about this lesson from Rubel on a later post. But for the time I just want to echo Rubel’s words; “the New Testament church—does indeed exist today”. But as most of you can see, the church that Rubel described is not anything like the church that Rubel preaches for today! NOT A BIT!

The church that Rubel described is exactly like the Church that I am a member of! Praise God!

In Christian Love,

Jimmy
Jimmy, you have discovered the Rubel Shelly that slipped off into the "TWILIGHT ZONE". Rod Sterling would be proud of your discovery.

Surely this cannot be the same Rubel of the Woodmont church! No, I heard the old Rubel of whom you speak and he didn't sound at all like the one I read about in 2005. Can it be that the same man would preach two different messages that are so opposed to one another?

I think I am begining to believe in the "BODY SNATCHERS". Does that make me a coo coo bird, ready to take my room down at the "nervous" hospital?

Goodness, I hope not!

Jesse Tubbs
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Ken Lee
Ken Lee

April 29th, 2005, 9:56 pm #20

<Rubel> "Only an irrational or dishonest man would say that contradictory positions can both be true!"

<George> One of the MANY sides of Rubel.

Rubel gives a true and honest lesson from the Bible about the New Testament Church of christ. I may say more on this later.

For the time I would like to point out Rubel's arrogant attitude.

In this lesson Rubel teaches that his church is the only church that is going to heaven. Every one else is LOST if you belong to another church.

Now notice what Rubel teaches. Everyone that holds the views that all belonging to any and every church that knows Christ will be saved and everyone that belongs to the New Testament Church of Christ as he presented in this lesson WILL be LOST.

It is the same "MEAN" old Rubel still trying to have his WAY of who will be "SAVED" and who will be "LOST".


Serving Him,

George
Max Rucado return with "spirits" from Brazil. Help Don Finto and Ruber Sherry and Steve Fratt impose Great Jubiree.

Pope's Jubiree for the Atonement: must go great meeting at Cathredal to be REDEEMED. Ken Lee help many superstitious find where atonement be poured out with great blowing of the Yobel from Jubal who handre musical instruments with out AUTHORITY. See Halal boys and girrs wave hands around four Asherah pores.

Max see Jesus as VIAL OF LIGHT which God somehow got past Lucifer whom he surmises MIGHT be saved. Sameo like Gnostic with ZOE holy mother, Beast and female instructing principle make little dumb jehovah make MUSICAL WORSHIP team to worship HER. The Ruber Sherry say think of S.O.N. God as <font color=red size="4">S.U.N. god</font>. So we gonna BAPTIZE Santa which name means Satan the giver of gifts.

He and John say that Mary was considered like CHEROKEE SAL who had a bastard son at Roaring Camp. Holy Chow Mein!

God MARKS INNOVATION to show BOTH sides at once. Star of David old Babylonian MARK of worship of STARS where STARS always performers.
Holy Egg Roll! Look at obverse side of SAME coin and see Siren-like Muse with lightning bolts to throw with Abaddon's MUSES which John HIDE as LOCUSTS: lull you to sleep in noon-day sun with music and then STING you with the kiss of death. Locusts link to aioding to EXCITE you to LIFT you up with pleasuring to CUT YOUR THROAT. The chain of words means to CARRY YOU AWAY for their own USES. This is the Greek HERESY. Paul say Jesus not do that (either Old Jesus or New Jesus) and commanded YOU not do that (Rom 15).
So, maybe always be sameo, sameo (Learn Japaneze real good) and NOT change?

Ken Lee.
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