Joined: February 16th, 2012, 8:07 pm

May 25th, 2012, 2:01 am #11

<em>ken sublett (Login Ken.Sublett)
ConcernedMembersMadison
Posted May 24, 2012 9:43 PM

Perhaps the focus on "Music" is a way to make people blind to the Word of God which is there for searching and learning. I might add my further comments. The word "believeth" or pistis as used in the Greek texts always includes "to comply." Believeth not or "apistos" means to be in revolt and to betray Jesus Christ.

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ
.....neither circumcision availeth any thing,
.....nor uncircumcision;
.....but faith which worketh by love.

energ-e , A. [select] to be in action or activity, operate, effect, execute,

Abraham is not said to have been SAVED because he was not LOST. Sin was in the world so that people could SIN their own sin and not blame ADAM. Abraham is said to have been a RIGHTEOUS man. Saved does not mean Justified.

Heb.11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance,
.....obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Heb.11:17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried,
.....offered up Isaac;
.....and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

Ja. 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works,
.....when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Ja. 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works,
.....and by works was faith made perfect?
Ja.2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith,
.....Abraham believed God,
.....and it was imputed unto him for righteousness:
.....and he was called the Friend of God.

Abraham is not said to have BELIEVED God until he had obeyed God: Believeth means to COMPLY.

Gen 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him:
.....for now I know that thou fearest God,
.....seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
Gen 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord,
.....for because thou hast done this thing,
.....and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son,
Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying
.....I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore;
.....and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
Gen 22:18 And in thy seed [singular]shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
.....because thou hast obeyed my voice.

God restated this to Isaac:

Gen 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven,
.....and will give unto thy seed all these countries;
.....and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham
.....obeyed my voice,
.....and kept my charge,
.....my commandments,
.....my statutes,
.....and my laws.

Gen 26:6 And Isaac dwelt in Gerar: [obeyed god.] </em>

The roach in the pudding is that if Abraham had not believed God in the first place, he wouldn't have obeyed Him. Your argument is invalid.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

May 25th, 2012, 3:28 am #12

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Brian,

Please be specific or explain your claim: "Your argument is invalid." The above post quoted facts from the Bible:

1. That faith which works with love avails much in Christ Jesus;
2. That by faith Abraham "went out, not knowing whither he went";
3. That Abraham our father was justified by works;
4. That the focus on "music" in the assembly is misdirected...
5. ... when the focus should be to teach and admonish one another ... in songs[/color]

Which argument or arguments are invalid, Brian?
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Joined: February 16th, 2012, 8:07 pm

May 25th, 2012, 3:59 am #13

Ken claimed that Abraham was not considered to have believed God until he obeyed Him. The reverse is true.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

May 25th, 2012, 4:37 am #14

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]"Not considered to have believed ... until" may be taken out of context. Perhaps "by whom" may clarify the issue of who said what -- by the liberal or by the conservative; by the RM heritage or by the change agents; etc.

It is rather easy to take the following out of context: "said to not have"; "not said to have"; etc. It would help to know who says what.

As far as sequence in the conversion process, Act 2:37,38 and Romans 10:13-17 will explain it -- preaching ... hearing ... believing, etc. Faith precedes obedience.[/color]
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Anonymous
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May 25th, 2012, 6:32 am #15

<em>Donnie Cruz (Login Donnie.Cruz)
ConcernedMembersMadison
Posted May 25, 2012 12:37 AM

"Not considered to have believed ... until" may be taken out of context. Perhaps "by whom" may clarify the issue of who said what -- by the liberal or by the conservative; by the RM heritage or by the change agents; etc.

It is rather easy to take the following out of context: "said to not have"; "not said to have"; etc. It would help to know who says what.

As far as sequence in the conversion process, Act 2:37,38 and Romans 10:13-17 will explain it -- preaching ... hearing ... believing, etc. Faith precedes obedience.</em>

Now is not the time to equivocate. Now is the time for honesty. Ken made the claim; Ken was wrong.
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B
B

May 25th, 2012, 4:33 pm #16

Copied/Transferred from the Richland Hills Church of Christ Forum
May 22 2012 at 8:32 PM
Anonymous
from IP address 209.193.57.120
=====================================

Concerned Members is a gathering place for complainers who feel that changes in their favorite version of "church" are tantamount to apostasy. Unfortunately, the seemingly primary characters here do nothing to mentor them in the faith, but rather fuel and encourage continued complaining, spreading discord, and embarrassing the faith.

It is a rather childish place and makes the operators (to my mind) seem considerably immature and well, stupid. There is little original thought demonstrated and non sequiturs abound. Even those who have published a book or two seemingly suffer from overly narrow thinking and defensiveness.

It really is a waste of time.
Two groups of people believe that the church of Christ is just another denomination: (1) denominationalists and (2) dissenters in the church of Christ who are denominationalists at heart and who want the church of Christ to become like the denominations.

Denominationalists don't want to believe that Jesus founded only ONE church, which is the church that bears His name, THE church of Christ. Denominationalists would have everyone believe that Jesus authorized a bunch of different "religious groups," all with differing beliefs and doctrines, yet all-pleasing to Jesus. Denominationalists refuse to admit that in the New Testament, Jesus does not once mention any groups such as Methodists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Catholics, and hundreds of other so-called "Christian" denominations. In fact, the word "denomination" doe NOT appear anywhere in the Bible at all. BTW, John the Baptist was not a member of the so-called "Baptist" denomination. He got that title simply because he baptized others to prepare them for the coming of Christ.

Jesus said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments" (John 14:15 KJV). Jesus did NOT say, "If ye love me, form many different denominations with many beliefs that differ from what I have taught you."

The inspired apostle John said, "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into [your] house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds" (2 John 1:9-11 KJV).

The "doctrine" to which John refers is the "doctrine of Christ," the teachings and commandments of Christ, which He imparted to His inspired apostles. To follow the doctrine of Christ means to obey His teachings AS WRITTEN in the New Testament. Unfortunately, the denominations follow some, but not ALL of Christ's teachings, which just doesn't cut the mustard.

The church of Christ plus all the denominations believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; well and good. But whereas the church of Christ rightly baptizes for remission of sins and salvation as stipulated in Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38, other denominations like the present-day "Baptists," for example, believe that baptism has no part in remission of sins and salvation. The "Baptists" believe that all you have to do to be saved is "invite Jesus into your heart as your personal Savior," and THAT'S IT--faith only. I've heard of some "Baptists" who are "members" of their church who have NEVER been baptized. Such doctrine is NOT that of Christ.

Methodists, Catholics and other denominations, for example, approve of infant baptism (ie, "Christening"), yet that is NOT the teaching of Christ. A candidate for baptism must BELIEVE before baptism can be effective: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved..." (Mark 16:16a KJV). Infants are not yet old enough to believe, and the New Testament does NOT teach that parents can substitute as their infants' proxies in belief. Catholics also believe in such fallacious ideas as venerating the Virgin Mary, "Purgatory" and "Limbo" as "lesser" degrees of hell, or that a deceased person can be "prayed" out of those latter places and enter heaven. Such poppycock is NOT the teaching of Christ.

Look at any of the denominations and you'll find one or more doctrinal deviations from Christ's explicit teachings in the New Testament; such groups do not belong to THE church of Christ.

The church of Christ, on the other hand, follows Christ's explicit teachings AS WRITTEN without seeking to tweak, alter, enhance, accompany, or take away from them to suit man's personal desires.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

May 25th, 2012, 4:53 pm #17

Ken claimed that Abraham was not considered to have believed God until he obeyed Him. The reverse is true.
That's a lie: faith comes by hearing the Word of God (only).
Faith does not mean "just believe something."
By FAITH ABRAHAM Obeyed. He might have believed and not obeyed. However, God did not say that Abraham was JUSTIFIED until AFTER He obeyed. Pistis or "believeth" includes to COMPLY with what you believe.

Justified or Saved (sins remitted, regenerated) are ON THE FACE two different words and have different meanings.

Being "Justified" is defined by reading whole thought patterns that "Abraham was not ceremonially unclean." A person is justified by THE FAITH OF JESUS CHRIST but they are SAVED by His life. Abraham was not "saved" because he was not lost. You MUST understand that Paul was not speaking to Al Maxey: he was speaking to Jews who claimed that "keeping the law and circumcision" JUSTIFIED and therefore qualified ONLY those to be baptized IN ORDER THAT their sins be remitted. Remission of sins comes AFTER obeying the direct command to be baptized.

The word "believer" is only applied to a believer who has been baptism.

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Paul said that Abraham was "Justified by Faith." He did not say that he was SAVED by faith only.

Because Paul was literate, he would have read:

Genesis 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven,
and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
Genesis 26:5 Because that Abraham
.....obeyed my voice,
.....and kept my charge,
.....my commandments,
.....my statutes,
.....and my laws.

Genesis 26:6 And Isaac dwelt in Gerar:

He that has FAITH (which complieth) AND is baptized SHALL BE Saved.

Maxeyites say: "That is a lie: A person is saved by faith only."

The clergy BELIEVED in Jesus but they DID NOT CONFESS.

Luke 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:
Luke 12:9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.
Luke 12:10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.
Last edited by Ken.Sublett on May 25th, 2012, 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

May 25th, 2012, 5:09 pm #18

Two groups of people believe that the church of Christ is just another denomination: (1) denominationalists and (2) dissenters in the church of Christ who are denominationalists at heart and who want the church of Christ to become like the denominations.

Denominationalists don't want to believe that Jesus founded only ONE church, which is the church that bears His name, THE church of Christ. Denominationalists would have everyone believe that Jesus authorized a bunch of different "religious groups," all with differing beliefs and doctrines, yet all-pleasing to Jesus. Denominationalists refuse to admit that in the New Testament, Jesus does not once mention any groups such as Methodists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, Catholics, and hundreds of other so-called "Christian" denominations. In fact, the word "denomination" doe NOT appear anywhere in the Bible at all. BTW, John the Baptist was not a member of the so-called "Baptist" denomination. He got that title simply because he baptized others to prepare them for the coming of Christ.

Jesus said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments" (John 14:15 KJV). Jesus did NOT say, "If ye love me, form many different denominations with many beliefs that differ from what I have taught you."

The inspired apostle John said, "Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into [your] house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds" (2 John 1:9-11 KJV).

The "doctrine" to which John refers is the "doctrine of Christ," the teachings and commandments of Christ, which He imparted to His inspired apostles. To follow the doctrine of Christ means to obey His teachings AS WRITTEN in the New Testament. Unfortunately, the denominations follow some, but not ALL of Christ's teachings, which just doesn't cut the mustard.

The church of Christ plus all the denominations believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; well and good. But whereas the church of Christ rightly baptizes for remission of sins and salvation as stipulated in Mark 16:16 and Acts 2:38, other denominations like the present-day "Baptists," for example, believe that baptism has no part in remission of sins and salvation. The "Baptists" believe that all you have to do to be saved is "invite Jesus into your heart as your personal Savior," and THAT'S IT--faith only. I've heard of some "Baptists" who are "members" of their church who have NEVER been baptized. Such doctrine is NOT that of Christ.

Methodists, Catholics and other denominations, for example, approve of infant baptism (ie, "Christening"), yet that is NOT the teaching of Christ. A candidate for baptism must BELIEVE before baptism can be effective: "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved..." (Mark 16:16a KJV). Infants are not yet old enough to believe, and the New Testament does NOT teach that parents can substitute as their infants' proxies in belief. Catholics also believe in such fallacious ideas as venerating the Virgin Mary, "Purgatory" and "Limbo" as "lesser" degrees of hell, or that a deceased person can be "prayed" out of those latter places and enter heaven. Such poppycock is NOT the teaching of Christ.

Look at any of the denominations and you'll find one or more doctrinal deviations from Christ's explicit teachings in the New Testament; such groups do not belong to THE church of Christ.

The church of Christ, on the other hand, follows Christ's explicit teachings AS WRITTEN without seeking to tweak, alter, enhance, accompany, or take away from them to suit man's personal desires.
That's a fact: those who whine about the church of Christ being "a big ugly denomination" cannot define a denomination. They endorse the Christian Church which is a defact denomination even though lots of Christian Churches do not participate.

You can find the NAME of the all inclusive denomination.
You can find a mailing address and telephone number
Today, you can find their e-mail and "home page."
They will have the Name of the HEAD: the Disciples give their head many of the rights of the Pope.
The HEAD of the NACC during the recent hostile takeover was David faust whose writings we have debunked.
They will hold at least yearly conferences and they will make denominational changes.

In the 1906 Big Fat Lie, the Disciples Christian churches had a plan and a budget. Shortly afterward they joined the National or Denominational organizations. Beginning in 1927 and not completed until 1971 the Christian Churches sected out of the Disciples.

It is true that there are periodic efforts to ORGANIZE churches: the Jubilee movement followed the Willow Creek and another Nashville pattern including yearly conferences intending to RESTRUCTURE churches of Christ into a dominant pastor, elders as board of directors, women leadership, musical worship teams which always intend to impose instruments and ECUMENICAL fellowship with the Christian Churches.

The Tulsa Workshop was one such UNITY EFFORT to which Al Maxey has poured forth.

All such "community" or Commune efforts have failed primarily because most Churches of Christ have been taught the Bible as its central goal. The old "purple hairs" they intended to "roll over" at Madison are often brighter and more Bible literate and such efforts fail. However, we intend to inscribe their names in paper and maybe STONE.

They WILL burn for lying TO God and ABOUT God. This was always a conspiracy of mean wanting to play the role of Women. A Catholic noted that the younger priests are more moral and more dedicated to conservative values.
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Joined: January 28th, 2012, 10:19 pm

May 25th, 2012, 10:00 pm #19


Abraham is a good example for us to follow as is other persons mentioned in Heb 11. The spirit said in Heb 12 that they are a great cloud of witnesses - to the proper pattern of behavior and mindset we are to have to please God. Consider that this direction is simple, easy to follow and will not change for culture, politics, personal wealth or persecution. What this community church movement is headed for is more and more opinion which cannot be bound on the church and which will lead to inconsistency and complexity which divide further and cause more issues. A hypothetical three headed horse has a difficult time deciding what to do - and so do churches which reject the simple pattern of new testament living and worship.

Consider that the under current of this and many related issues today is that the change agents do not have the Abraham mindset.

We have been told to have the mindset of one on a journey to a wonderful place recognizing that this life is a temporary dwelling place not worthy to sacrifice any thing of spiritual value. The spirit also said to love not the world or the things in the world such as the praise and approval of men. Consider also that Christ has all preeminence in religion, not doctors of such and such and learned men and women. Men and women worship God, not each other. We don't just "do church" we glorify and praise God on his terms. We should be faithful to him no matter what insults are sent our way!

Comment welcome
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

May 25th, 2012, 10:13 pm #20

We know exactly how the people of Ur tried to ascend to or bring down their gods.

To see to all of this the god had priests trained as cooks, bakers, waiters, and bathers, or as encomiasts (singers of praise) and musicians to make the god's meals festive, or as elegists to soothe him in times of stress and grief.

"The temple was staffed by priests, priestesses, musicians, singers, castrates and hierodules (including Temple Prostitutes or ministers). Various public rituals, food sacrifices, and libations took place there on a daily basis. There were monthly feasts and annual, New Year celebrations. During the later, the king would be married to Inanna as the resurrected fertility god Dumuzi..."
Ezekiel 8

We cannot imagine Abraham engaging in any of this and God REMOVED Him because he was a man of faith: if God asked him to do something he never whined. So, since Paul in Galatians leaps back to the Covenant God in Christ made with Abraham, it would help to know from what God rescued him and us.

I cannot imagine a preacher running out of material or needing a musical performance to "warm up the crowd."
Last edited by Ken.Sublett on May 25th, 2012, 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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