Reply to Servant's Post on the Jeff Walling and Instrumental Music Thread

Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

December 22nd, 2006, 10:41 pm #31

Servant's one quote from Clement hardly proves that early Christians actually used IM. Is Servant still denying all the mountains of evidence to the contrary? Clement implied that he wouldn't have blamed Christians if they had used instruments. He didn't say that they actually used them . Still, the overwhelming evidence shows that the early Christians chose NOT to use IM for the reasons previously stated, the most important being that they knew not to go beyond what was written in Scripture (Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16).
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

December 23rd, 2006, 12:49 am #32

Servant writes: "God commands us to sing. Does He tell us how to sing? NO!"

Jimmy replies: Servant this is one reason that I hope you did not succeed in you run for elder at your church. Not only does God tell us how to sing in the New Testament but God also tells us what to sing!

Read the Scriptures again. Paul writes: "...I will sing with the Spirit and I will sing with the understanding." (1 Cor. 14:15) Paul writes of our singing as being "teaching and admonishing" to one another. Paul said that the lyrics we speak are to be from God, Himself, when he writes that psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs are to be our only teaching and admonishing tools durning this time of praise.

There is no entertaintment mentioned; There are no chosen voices; all are to speak/sing/teach/admonish one another with the Word of God.

Of all the Churches of Christ mentioned in the Bible, none are mentioned in regard to having "great singing." Churches are mentioned for their elders, their deacons, their works, their members but not for their great singing. Great singing, as used by some modern churches, is of recent orgin, i.e. within the last several hundred years.

The Scripture that makes mentions of Paul and Silas sanging praises at midnight and the prisoners heard them has great meaning to it. The meaning being that the prisoners were taught of God! The prisoners were admonished of God! In fact when the gates were opened the prisoners did not even try to leave the unattended prison! Why do you suppose that none of the prisoners left? "All of the doors were opened! Everyone's bands was loosed!"(Acts 16:26) Yet no one left! No, not one! This may be attributed to the teachings of Paul and Silas in the songs they sang. The Bible says that every one heard Paul and Silas.

Servant, if you would do a study of "singing schools" in American towns, you will find they originated in dance halls and beer joints, not in churches. Yet it is churches that promote them today!

In Christ,
Jimmy
Rick Atchley and other false teachers: <font color=red>No church father condemns Music. IN fact, Clement says that

And even if you wish to sing and play to the harp or lyre, there is no blame</font>

TRUTH SPEAKER: Well, out of context it SOUNDS like Rick is a TRUTH SPEAKER. However, he LIFTS out of context because Clement wrote much more which grasps that church was a time and place to read and chant (not metrical, not musical) the Psalms and other Biblical text to TEACH and ADMONISH one another. Isn't that so simple that the PhDuh's missed it.

Rick: <font color=red>There was no criticism of INSTRUMENTAL PRAISE.</font>

TRUTH SPEAKER: I cannot think that ANY one would ever use the term INSTRUMENTAL PRAISE. David, speaking poetically, said that only things with BREATH can praise God. How about a PRAYER WHELL and just sleep in and save your money?

I can understand why our children MOLLESTED by "sunday cut N paste" might escape hell for denying what ALL of the christian church writers repeat, repeat, repeat. However, if that is part of your FOUNDATION for moving a church into what all church fathers and founders of denominations would call PAGANISM you have placed yourself under a sentence of hell.

For the full story which you might STUDY instead of listening to an UNLAWFUL SERMON which was imposed about the time singing was imposed by pagan priests who moves smoothly into the "church."

http://www.piney.com/FathClPed2.html

Chapter IV.-How to Conduct Ourselves at Feasts.


<font color=blue>Let revelry keep away from our rational entertainments, and foolish vigils, too, that revel in intemperance. For revelry is an inebriating pipe, the chain of an amatory bridge, that is, of sorrow. And let love, and intoxication, and senseless passions, be removed from our choir. Burlesque singing is the boon companion of drunkenness. A night spent over drink invites drunkenness, rouses lust, and is audacious in deeds of shame.

For if people occupy their time with pipes, and psalteries, and choirs, and dances, and Egyptian clapping of hands, and such disorderly frivolities,they become quite immodest and intractable, beat on cymbals and drums, and make a noise on instruments of delusion ; for plainly such a banquet, as seems to me, is a theatre of drunkenness.

For the apostle decrees that, "putting off the works of darkness, we should put on the armour of light, walking honestly as in the day, not spending our time in rioting and drunkenness, in chambering and wantonness."
Let the pipe be resigned to the shepherds,
and the flute to the superstitious who are engrossed in idolatry.
</font>

The THESIS of the Vineyard, aka New Wineskins Heresy is to use music to bring on EXHILARATION: just the thing Jesus died to remove along with the Holy Bartenders. You are in fact "drunk without" wine if the music alters your mind to make you PLEASURE. Who could HONESTLY appeal to Clement when he OUTLAWS even in the private life the very instruments Ricky wants to import. Remember, that Max proposes soft strings in a separate "room" but once the camel gets his FOOT into your tent the intent is to go "all the way." You cannot believe anyone who lies about ALL of the Bible and all known history.

Readers of whole thought patterns will see that even in PRIVATE MEALS the use of flutes or other wind instruments were suitable for immorality and IDOLATRY. Yea, superstitious because they STILL believe that God can be controlled or appeased with flutes (meaning to pollute or prostitute.)

However, Clement allows the lyre for private fellowship but then ALLEGORIZES it. Instruments were outlawed even in Christian meals because of the EFFECTS it has on the mind of people. Is that NOT a good enough reason NOT to do it? Only if you are brain dead do you need a LAW. Fact is, the word PSALLO outlawed everything but that which has a string to PULL: it outlaws the PLECTRUM. Sure, Clement was bible literate.

<font color=blue>For, in truth, such instruments are to be banished from the temperate banquet, being more suitable to beasts than men, and the more irrational portion of mankind.</font>

How are you going to make a dead man lie and say that it IS ACCEPTABLE to use wind instruments or clap hands IN CHURCH?
  • <font color=purple>Chalal (h2490) khaw-lal'; a prim. root [comp. 2470]; prop. to bore, i. e. (by impl.) to wound, to dissolve; fig. to profane (a person, place or thing), to break (one's word), to begin (as if by an "opening wedge"); denom. (from 2485) to play (the flute): - begin (* men began), defile, * break, defile, * eat (as common things), * first, * gather the grape thereof, * take inheritance, pipe, player on instruments, pollute, (cast as) profane (self), prostitute, slay (slain), sorrow, stain, wound.</font>
<font color=blue>For we have heard of stags being charmed by the pipe, and seduced by music into the toils, when hunted by the huntsmen.

And when mares are being covered, a tune is played on the flute -a nuptial song, as it were.
And every improper sight and sound, to speak in a word, and every shameful sensation of licentiousnes"-which, in truth, is privation of sensation-must by all means be excluded and we must be on our guard against whatever pleasure titillates eye and ear, and EFFEMINATES. For the various spells of the broken strains and plaintive numbers of the Carian muse corrupt men's morals, drawing to perturbation of mind, by the licentious and mischievous art of music. </font>

Jesus DIED to remove this PERTUBATION OF MIND which is the ONLY thing music produces. Paul also outlaw "creation of mental excitement. Music, in fact, SHUTS DOWN the rational mind and appeals ONLY to the emotion: lie all you want but it is JUST entertainment.

The MUSICAL and SEXUAL or HOMOSEXUAL connection is absolute in paganism. The church did not REFUSE to use instruments just because the PROSTITUTES used it. No, dumbo, they refused to USE it because they knew that MUSIC unfairly manipulates all of the PRIVATE PARTS and not just the ear drums. This, science knows, induces FIGHT, FLIGHT or SEXUALITY. Those DISCORDING the church cannot be what they appear to be.

ALL OF THESE INSTRUMENTS ARE EXCLUDED EVEN FROM PRIVATE MEALS

<font color=blue>The Spirit, distinguishing from such REVELRY the divine service, sings,
  • "Praise Him with the sound of trumpet ; "for with sound of trumpet He shall raise the dead.

    "Praise Him on the psaltery ; "for the TONGE is the psaltery of the Lord.
    "And praise Him on the lyre." By the lyre is meant the MOUTH struck by the Spirit, as it were by a PLECTRUM.

    "Praise with the timbrel and the dance," refers to the Church meditating on the resurrection of the dead in the resounding skin.
    "Praise Him on the chords and organ." Our body He calls an organ, and its nerves are the strings,
    by which it has received harmonious tension, and when struck by the Spirit, it gives forth human voices.
    "Praise Him on the clashing cymbals." He calls the tongue the cymbal of the mouth, which resounds with the pulsation of the lips.

    Therefore He cried to humanity,
    "Let every breath praise the Lord," because He cares for every breathing thing which He hath made . For man is truly a pacific instrument; while other instruments, if you investigate, you will find to be warlike, inflaming to lusts, or kindling up amours, or rousing wrath.
In their wars, therefore, the Etruscans use the trumpet, the Arcadians the pipe, the Sicilians the pectides, the Cretans the lyre, the Lacedaemonians the flute, the Thracians the horn, the Egyptians the drum, and the Arabians the cymbal. </font>

This reads much lie the Psalms of the Dead Sea which has Jesus using the INSTRUMENTS OF GOD which He gave us for that purpose AFTER his defeat of Satan.

He is now CLEARLY speaking about the CHURCH ASSEMBLY where NO instruments are allowed nor RATIONALLY lusted for. Remembering Romans 15, Ephesians and Collosians and understanding EKKLESIA he DIRECT COMMANDED that:

<font color=blue>The one instrument of peace, the Word alone by which we honour God, is what we employ.
  • We no longer employ the ancient psaltery, and trumpet, and timbrel, and flute,
    which those expert in war and contemners of the fear of God were wont to make use of

    also in the choruses at their festive assemblies;
    that by such strains they might raise their dejected minds. But let our genial feeling in drinking be twofold, in accordance with the law.
For "if thou shalt love the Lord try God," and then "thy neighbour,"
1. let its first manifestation be towards God in thanksgiving and psalmody, and
2. the second toward our neighbour in decorous fellowship.

For says the apostle, "Let the Word of the Lord dwell in you richly." And this Word suits and conforms Himself to seasons, to persons, to places. In the present instance He is a guest with us. For the apostle adds again, "Teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, in psalms, and hymns, and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your heart to God." And again, "Whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and His Father." This is our thankful revelry. </font>

That PRETTY MUCH outlaws Twila Paris and the Musical Rocking fella? Fellowship would be outside of the assemblies where it was common to gather for a meal because people might travel all day to attend.

Love of God is expressed in thanksgiving and psalmody. Love of NEIGHBOR is in DECOROUS FELLOWSHIP. And "outside of church"

<font color=blue>And even if you wish to sing and play to the harp or lyre, there is no blame. 104</font>
  • <font color=purple>Note 104 [Here instrumental music is allowed, though he turns everything into a type.]</font>

    FURTHERMORE: the subject is HOW TO CONDUCT OURSELVES AT FEASTS: not in church. This is restated so that Clement has OUTLAWED all but quiet string instruments EVEN IN PRIVATE dinner parties!
<font color=blue>Thou shalt imitate the righteous Hebrew king in his thanksgiving to God. "Rejoice in the Lord, ye righteous; praise is comely to the upright," says the prophecy.

"Confess to the Lord on the harp ; play to Him on the psaltery of ten strings. Sing to Him a new song."
And does not the ten-stringed psaltery indicate the Word Jesus, who is manifested by the element of the decad?
And as it is befitting, before partaking of food, that we should bless the Creator of all; so also in drinking it is suitable to praise Him on partaking of His creatures. For the psalm is a melodious and sober blessing. The apostle calls the psalm "a spiritual song." </font>

Earlier, he had written:

<font color=blue>The Holy Spirit, uttering His voice by Amos, pronounces the rich to be wretched on account of their luxury: "Those that drink strained wine, and recline on an ivory couch," he says; and what else similar he adds by way of reproach.

Especial regard is to be paid to decency (as the myth represents Athene, whoever she was, out of regard to it, giving up the pleasure of the flute because of the unseemliness of the sight ):</font>
  • <font color=purple>Note 77 [Here Clement satirizes heathen manners, and quote Athene, to shame Christians who imitate them.]</font>
There is not a single historical reference the musical crowd do not deliberately pervert knowing that most of the fools can be fooled enough to fill the collection plates DIVERTED from the destitute.
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Jimmy Wren
Jimmy Wren

December 23rd, 2006, 2:44 am #33

This is a repost....since Donnie and others love to use Clement, and SINCE you didn't give a response to this. I didn't think you would, because it negates MOST of your unhistorical claims that instruments were not used in the first century church. I see many many claims from those that did not PREFER it, but not one shred of evidence that instrumental music did/did not exist.

Thank you guys, and I mean it...from the bottom of my heart.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yet, there are some who reject both the seventh and tenth century dates and place the introduction of the instrument as far back as the third, fourth, or fifth century. Though this would be too early a date for the organ, it is argued that the lute and/or lyre were used in the worship.

To support this claim an appeal is made to Clement of Alexander. He wrote around 200 A.D. He said, "And even if you wish to sing and play to the harp or lyre, there is no blame."


When Was The Instrument Of Music First Introduced Into Christian Worship?

Brooks Cochran
Memphis, Tennessee

you know the crazy thing about it is....there are those who want to say, to this day, that Clemente wasn't speaking of the worship service, but probably a feast or festival.

NO BLAME gents....NONE
straight from the mouth of Clemente himself.
Servants writes: "...straight from the mouth of Clemente himself."

Jimmy replies: Not so fast there Servant. This is your copy and paste of an article by Brooks Cochran.

While the quote may be legit your source is BC and not Clement of Alexander.

In Christ,
Jimmy
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Servant
Servant

December 24th, 2006, 6:52 am #34

Servant's one quote from Clement hardly proves that early Christians actually used IM. Is Servant still denying all the mountains of evidence to the contrary? Clement implied that he wouldn't have blamed Christians if they had used instruments. He didn't say that they actually used them . Still, the overwhelming evidence shows that the early Christians chose NOT to use IM for the reasons previously stated, the most important being that they knew not to go beyond what was written in Scripture (Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16).
Bill:
I like where you said...."Still, the overwhelming evidence shows that the early Christians chose NOT to use IM for the reasons previously stated"

Overwhelming, meaning that perhaps you are doubting yourself a bit here??? The only thing that I have seen from any of the historians that any of you have quoted is that they do not PREFER it.....preferrences again gentleman, nothing more.

I have to point this out to you again Bill since you like parables so much....First, the written Word is all we need to settle this, and I definttely don't need so called historians to give me what they prefer the Word to be. The Bible SAYS in the NT "to sing" and you say not to go beyond what is written.
Now go back to the parable of the talents. Was Jesus happy with the man who dug a hole and buried his talent and didn't make the best of this talent???
THANK YOU BILL!!!

Matthew 25
18But the man who had received the one talent went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money.
24"Then the man who had received the one talent came. 'Master,' he said, 'I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25So I was afraid and went out and hid your talent in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.'

Use common sense Bill. You go ahead, and be afraid of not doing the best for our Lord.....NOT ME! Not King David.....He used it all......So will I!!!

Another thing Bill and Donnie and Jimmy....we all know that you are battling a losing situation here, but at least you guys sound at least sly enough to listen to. When you bring someone aboard like Ken Sublett who doesn't make any sense whatsoever then this site will continue to be a laughing stock!!!

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Jimmy Wren
Jimmy Wren

December 24th, 2006, 8:32 pm #35

Servant this is one of the reasons why piney's posts makes more sense then your's do!

You seem to labor under the false impression that a person must have a special talent to fullfill the commands found in Eph. 5:19.

I do agree that it takes a little education to "musicate" like the heathens and pagans do. I also agree that the heathens and pagans are often filled with wine rather then being filled with the Spirit. But I disagree with you that it takes a "talent" to "Speak to yourselves..." as Paul commands in his letters to the Ephesians and Colossians. I disagree with you that it takes a "talent" to be filled with the Spirit or that it takes a "talent" to have the Word of God dwell in us richly.

Thus far Servant ever argument you have put forth is likened to a green screen used in photography. The green screen is chromakeyed and the beautiful, real, lasting, background is revealed for all to gaze on.

In Christ,
Jimmy †

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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

December 25th, 2006, 12:47 am #36

Rick Atchley and other false teachers: <font color=red>No church father condemns Music. IN fact, Clement says that

And even if you wish to sing and play to the harp or lyre, there is no blame</font>

TRUTH SPEAKER: Well, out of context it SOUNDS like Rick is a TRUTH SPEAKER. However, he LIFTS out of context because Clement wrote much more which grasps that church was a time and place to read and chant (not metrical, not musical) the Psalms and other Biblical text to TEACH and ADMONISH one another. Isn't that so simple that the PhDuh's missed it.

Rick: <font color=red>There was no criticism of INSTRUMENTAL PRAISE.</font>

TRUTH SPEAKER: I cannot think that ANY one would ever use the term INSTRUMENTAL PRAISE. David, speaking poetically, said that only things with BREATH can praise God. How about a PRAYER WHELL and just sleep in and save your money?

I can understand why our children MOLLESTED by "sunday cut N paste" might escape hell for denying what ALL of the christian church writers repeat, repeat, repeat. However, if that is part of your FOUNDATION for moving a church into what all church fathers and founders of denominations would call PAGANISM you have placed yourself under a sentence of hell.

For the full story which you might STUDY instead of listening to an UNLAWFUL SERMON which was imposed about the time singing was imposed by pagan priests who moves smoothly into the "church."

http://www.piney.com/FathClPed2.html

Chapter IV.-How to Conduct Ourselves at Feasts.


<font color=blue>Let revelry keep away from our rational entertainments, and foolish vigils, too, that revel in intemperance. For revelry is an inebriating pipe, the chain of an amatory bridge, that is, of sorrow. And let love, and intoxication, and senseless passions, be removed from our choir. Burlesque singing is the boon companion of drunkenness. A night spent over drink invites drunkenness, rouses lust, and is audacious in deeds of shame.

For if people occupy their time with pipes, and psalteries, and choirs, and dances, and Egyptian clapping of hands, and such disorderly frivolities,they become quite immodest and intractable, beat on cymbals and drums, and make a noise on instruments of delusion ; for plainly such a banquet, as seems to me, is a theatre of drunkenness.

For the apostle decrees that, "putting off the works of darkness, we should put on the armour of light, walking honestly as in the day, not spending our time in rioting and drunkenness, in chambering and wantonness."
Let the pipe be resigned to the shepherds,
and the flute to the superstitious who are engrossed in idolatry.
</font>

The THESIS of the Vineyard, aka New Wineskins Heresy is to use music to bring on EXHILARATION: just the thing Jesus died to remove along with the Holy Bartenders. You are in fact "drunk without" wine if the music alters your mind to make you PLEASURE. Who could HONESTLY appeal to Clement when he OUTLAWS even in the private life the very instruments Ricky wants to import. Remember, that Max proposes soft strings in a separate "room" but once the camel gets his FOOT into your tent the intent is to go "all the way." You cannot believe anyone who lies about ALL of the Bible and all known history.

Readers of whole thought patterns will see that even in PRIVATE MEALS the use of flutes or other wind instruments were suitable for immorality and IDOLATRY. Yea, superstitious because they STILL believe that God can be controlled or appeased with flutes (meaning to pollute or prostitute.)

However, Clement allows the lyre for private fellowship but then ALLEGORIZES it. Instruments were outlawed even in Christian meals because of the EFFECTS it has on the mind of people. Is that NOT a good enough reason NOT to do it? Only if you are brain dead do you need a LAW. Fact is, the word PSALLO outlawed everything but that which has a string to PULL: it outlaws the PLECTRUM. Sure, Clement was bible literate.

<font color=blue>For, in truth, such instruments are to be banished from the temperate banquet, being more suitable to beasts than men, and the more irrational portion of mankind.</font>

How are you going to make a dead man lie and say that it IS ACCEPTABLE to use wind instruments or clap hands IN CHURCH?
  • <font color=purple>Chalal (h2490) khaw-lal'; a prim. root [comp. 2470]; prop. to bore, i. e. (by impl.) to wound, to dissolve; fig. to profane (a person, place or thing), to break (one's word), to begin (as if by an "opening wedge"); denom. (from 2485) to play (the flute): - begin (* men began), defile, * break, defile, * eat (as common things), * first, * gather the grape thereof, * take inheritance, pipe, player on instruments, pollute, (cast as) profane (self), prostitute, slay (slain), sorrow, stain, wound.</font>
<font color=blue>For we have heard of stags being charmed by the pipe, and seduced by music into the toils, when hunted by the huntsmen.

And when mares are being covered, a tune is played on the flute -a nuptial song, as it were.
And every improper sight and sound, to speak in a word, and every shameful sensation of licentiousnes"-which, in truth, is privation of sensation-must by all means be excluded and we must be on our guard against whatever pleasure titillates eye and ear, and EFFEMINATES. For the various spells of the broken strains and plaintive numbers of the Carian muse corrupt men's morals, drawing to perturbation of mind, by the licentious and mischievous art of music. </font>

Jesus DIED to remove this PERTUBATION OF MIND which is the ONLY thing music produces. Paul also outlaw "creation of mental excitement. Music, in fact, SHUTS DOWN the rational mind and appeals ONLY to the emotion: lie all you want but it is JUST entertainment.

The MUSICAL and SEXUAL or HOMOSEXUAL connection is absolute in paganism. The church did not REFUSE to use instruments just because the PROSTITUTES used it. No, dumbo, they refused to USE it because they knew that MUSIC unfairly manipulates all of the PRIVATE PARTS and not just the ear drums. This, science knows, induces FIGHT, FLIGHT or SEXUALITY. Those DISCORDING the church cannot be what they appear to be.

ALL OF THESE INSTRUMENTS ARE EXCLUDED EVEN FROM PRIVATE MEALS

<font color=blue>The Spirit, distinguishing from such REVELRY the divine service, sings,
  • "Praise Him with the sound of trumpet ; "for with sound of trumpet He shall raise the dead.

    "Praise Him on the psaltery ; "for the TONGE is the psaltery of the Lord.
    "And praise Him on the lyre." By the lyre is meant the MOUTH struck by the Spirit, as it were by a PLECTRUM.

    "Praise with the timbrel and the dance," refers to the Church meditating on the resurrection of the dead in the resounding skin.
    "Praise Him on the chords and organ." Our body He calls an organ, and its nerves are the strings,
    by which it has received harmonious tension, and when struck by the Spirit, it gives forth human voices.
    "Praise Him on the clashing cymbals." He calls the tongue the cymbal of the mouth, which resounds with the pulsation of the lips.

    Therefore He cried to humanity,
    "Let every breath praise the Lord," because He cares for every breathing thing which He hath made . For man is truly a pacific instrument; while other instruments, if you investigate, you will find to be warlike, inflaming to lusts, or kindling up amours, or rousing wrath.
In their wars, therefore, the Etruscans use the trumpet, the Arcadians the pipe, the Sicilians the pectides, the Cretans the lyre, the Lacedaemonians the flute, the Thracians the horn, the Egyptians the drum, and the Arabians the cymbal. </font>

This reads much lie the Psalms of the Dead Sea which has Jesus using the INSTRUMENTS OF GOD which He gave us for that purpose AFTER his defeat of Satan.

He is now CLEARLY speaking about the CHURCH ASSEMBLY where NO instruments are allowed nor RATIONALLY lusted for. Remembering Romans 15, Ephesians and Collosians and understanding EKKLESIA he DIRECT COMMANDED that:

<font color=blue>The one instrument of peace, the Word alone by which we honour God, is what we employ.
  • We no longer employ the ancient psaltery, and trumpet, and timbrel, and flute,
    which those expert in war and contemners of the fear of God were wont to make use of

    also in the choruses at their festive assemblies;
    that by such strains they might raise their dejected minds. But let our genial feeling in drinking be twofold, in accordance with the law.
For "if thou shalt love the Lord try God," and then "thy neighbour,"
1. let its first manifestation be towards God in thanksgiving and psalmody, and
2. the second toward our neighbour in decorous fellowship.

For says the apostle, "Let the Word of the Lord dwell in you richly." And this Word suits and conforms Himself to seasons, to persons, to places. In the present instance He is a guest with us. For the apostle adds again, "Teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, in psalms, and hymns, and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your heart to God." And again, "Whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and His Father." This is our thankful revelry. </font>

That PRETTY MUCH outlaws Twila Paris and the Musical Rocking fella? Fellowship would be outside of the assemblies where it was common to gather for a meal because people might travel all day to attend.

Love of God is expressed in thanksgiving and psalmody. Love of NEIGHBOR is in DECOROUS FELLOWSHIP. And "outside of church"

<font color=blue>And even if you wish to sing and play to the harp or lyre, there is no blame. 104</font>
  • <font color=purple>Note 104 [Here instrumental music is allowed, though he turns everything into a type.]</font>

    FURTHERMORE: the subject is HOW TO CONDUCT OURSELVES AT FEASTS: not in church. This is restated so that Clement has OUTLAWED all but quiet string instruments EVEN IN PRIVATE dinner parties!
<font color=blue>Thou shalt imitate the righteous Hebrew king in his thanksgiving to God. "Rejoice in the Lord, ye righteous; praise is comely to the upright," says the prophecy.

"Confess to the Lord on the harp ; play to Him on the psaltery of ten strings. Sing to Him a new song."
And does not the ten-stringed psaltery indicate the Word Jesus, who is manifested by the element of the decad?
And as it is befitting, before partaking of food, that we should bless the Creator of all; so also in drinking it is suitable to praise Him on partaking of His creatures. For the psalm is a melodious and sober blessing. The apostle calls the psalm "a spiritual song." </font>

Earlier, he had written:

<font color=blue>The Holy Spirit, uttering His voice by Amos, pronounces the rich to be wretched on account of their luxury: "Those that drink strained wine, and recline on an ivory couch," he says; and what else similar he adds by way of reproach.

Especial regard is to be paid to decency (as the myth represents Athene, whoever she was, out of regard to it, giving up the pleasure of the flute because of the unseemliness of the sight ):</font>
  • <font color=purple>Note 77 [Here Clement satirizes heathen manners, and quote Athene, to shame Christians who imitate them.]</font>
There is not a single historical reference the musical crowd do not deliberately pervert knowing that most of the fools can be fooled enough to fill the collection plates DIVERTED from the destitute.
You know that you need a new secretary of defense when the "warriors" hear the commander shout "RETREAT" and they ATTACK while clapping and singing. When they get out of captivity and rehab they tell the press: 'Huh, I ain't no dummy: he DIDN'T say that I COULD NOT attack."

I used to believe the Musicators when they said that SPEAK means MAKE MUSIC. When I gradulated from teaching with their hands, I RED the RIGHTING and found out that the word SPEAK in the Greak language means OPPOSITE TO MUSIC I said to myself: "Self, why IS it that the Spirit OF Christ is smarter than Rubel or Rick or Harry when THEY say "that was the OLDEN Jesus" and he didn't KNOW that culture changes?

These famous peole also say--while being USED by the musicators--that making melody was WITH the heart. Now, if you keep on PLUCKING your heart and suddenly letting go to leave a MARK as it goes "THWACK," you will go into Cadillac Arrest.

<font color=blue>And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the WORKS of their OWN hands. Acts 7:41</font>

Now, I know that even of the temple which Stephen said was NOT what God promised David, people were not worshiping in HOUSES or or using WORKS of human hands. But, that was B.M. (Before Me) and God DID NOT SAY "thou shalt NOT worship with thy HANDS" or Machines which we have proven means WORKS as in LEGALISM.

Now, even people B.M. which was B.C. people could grasp the differrence between MAKING MERRY as WASTFUL and when you get GROWED UP you learn like a MAN and your SPIRIT WAXES greater and greater.
  • <font color=purple>Rejoice is Euphrainô

    II. Pass., make merry, enjoy oneself

    Homer Odyssey 2. Then wise Telemachus answered him: [310] “Antinous,
    in no wise is it possible for me in your overweening company to sit at meat quietly and to make merry with an easy mind.
    • Is it not enough, ye wooers, that in time past ye wasted many goodly possessions of mine, while I was still a child?
      But now that I am grown, [315] and gain knowledge by hearing the words of others,
      yea and my spirit waxes within me, I will try how I may hurl forth upon your evil fates.
    </font>
FATES are what the Calvinist worship.
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Joined: December 30th, 2006, 8:03 pm

December 30th, 2006, 8:08 pm #37

Servant writes: "God commands us to sing. Does He tell us how to sing? NO!"

Jimmy replies: Servant this is one reason that I hope you did not succeed in you run for elder at your church. Not only does God tell us how to sing in the New Testament but God also tells us what to sing!

Read the Scriptures again. Paul writes: "...I will sing with the Spirit and I will sing with the understanding." (1 Cor. 14:15) Paul writes of our singing as being "teaching and admonishing" to one another. Paul said that the lyrics we speak are to be from God, Himself, when he writes that psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs are to be our only teaching and admonishing tools durning this time of praise.

There is no entertaintment mentioned; There are no chosen voices; all are to speak/sing/teach/admonish one another with the Word of God.

Of all the Churches of Christ mentioned in the Bible, none are mentioned in regard to having "great singing." Churches are mentioned for their elders, their deacons, their works, their members but not for their great singing. Great singing, as used by some modern churches, is of recent orgin, i.e. within the last several hundred years.

The Scripture that makes mentions of Paul and Silas sanging praises at midnight and the prisoners heard them has great meaning to it. The meaning being that the prisoners were taught of God! The prisoners were admonished of God! In fact when the gates were opened the prisoners did not even try to leave the unattended prison! Why do you suppose that none of the prisoners left? "All of the doors were opened! Everyone's bands was loosed!"(Acts 16:26) Yet no one left! No, not one! This may be attributed to the teachings of Paul and Silas in the songs they sang. The Bible says that every one heard Paul and Silas.

Servant, if you would do a study of "singing schools" in American towns, you will find they originated in dance halls and beer joints, not in churches. Yet it is churches that promote them today!

In Christ,
Jimmy
Jimmy... so the bible was talking and mentioning about Churches of Christ only? So what you are saying that the only legit and biblically recognized church is the Church of Christ?

I personally attend a "Church of Christ" although it would probably not be on your "list" of churches of Christ that are doing things the "right way". My brother attends a Presbyterian church... and although he is very serious in his commitment to serve Jesus Christ and be a servant to others, he is probably condemned, right?? How do you think I should break the news to him???
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

December 30th, 2006, 10:01 pm #38

People can be seriously committed to Christ (have good intentions), but there is only one way to serve Christ, and that is His Way, which is outlined in the New Testament. If one's "service" and "belief" in Christ are done in a way and manner which He did not specify or command, either through the Gospels or through the apostolic writers (that is, if one is given over to man-contrived doctrines and practices), then that "service" and "belief" are null and void, and all one's good intentions are moot. And we all have heard the old adage that, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." So whether one calls himself a "Church of Christ" or "Presbyterian," if one does not follow Christ's Way, the one-and-only Way, then all is indeed lost.
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Tony Romo
Tony Romo

December 30th, 2006, 10:20 pm #39

Jimmy... so the bible was talking and mentioning about Churches of Christ only? So what you are saying that the only legit and biblically recognized church is the Church of Christ?

I personally attend a "Church of Christ" although it would probably not be on your "list" of churches of Christ that are doing things the "right way". My brother attends a Presbyterian church... and although he is very serious in his commitment to serve Jesus Christ and be a servant to others, he is probably condemned, right?? How do you think I should break the news to him???
Vince, when I seek to know things of a Spiritual nature I turn to the Bible. I firmly believe that the Bible has all of the answers. Christ establihed the only church that I read about in the New Testament. Paul didn't start a new church! Peter didn't began his own church. John the baptizer didn't began a church. In fact I only read of one person who made the statement "I will build my church!"

Do you read of anyone else in the New Testament who makes the promise to build a church?

Sorry vince. It's back to qb school for you.

In Christ,
Tony Romo
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Joined: December 30th, 2006, 8:03 pm

December 31st, 2006, 4:42 am #40

People can be seriously committed to Christ (have good intentions), but there is only one way to serve Christ, and that is His Way, which is outlined in the New Testament. If one's "service" and "belief" in Christ are done in a way and manner which He did not specify or command, either through the Gospels or through the apostolic writers (that is, if one is given over to man-contrived doctrines and practices), then that "service" and "belief" are null and void, and all one's good intentions are moot. And we all have heard the old adage that, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." So whether one calls himself a "Church of Christ" or "Presbyterian," if one does not follow Christ's Way, the one-and-only Way, then all is indeed lost.
DR. Bill... while I agree that good intentions don't always mean that you are doing the right thing... I don't understand how you can go wrong in your Christian walk if you are constantly trying to strive to be like Jesus Christ. Jesus came to Earth to ABOLISH the law. The whole message of Jesus was that we should serve others and always look out for the best interests of others over our own... PLAIN AND SIMPLE!! In fact, he chastised the Pharisies that got so caught up in dotting every "I" and crossing every "T" as far as the law and it's rules and regulations.

I agree that we are called to live Holy lives before God and to strive to be as obeidiant as humanly possible to him... I just think that you guys that run this website are completely missing the point as far as what Jesus Christ wants from us. Is it all about walking a legalistic tightrope and hoping that the reason that you walk this tightroe is legit... or is it all about serving others and living your life to constantly die to yourself and show love to the world???
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