Questions For Brothers Crump And Cruz

Questions For Brothers Crump And Cruz

Sonny
Sonny

January 6th, 2011, 5:01 am #1

1. Are there any Christian Universities/Colleges in the C of C "brotherhood" that either of you personally believe are "sound" institutions for sending our youth? If so, please identify which one(s).

2. Are there any "Churches of Christ" in Nashville that you believe are "sound", faithful congregations? If so, please identify which one(s).

3. Does the church in Arizona where Brother Waddey preaches have appointed elders?

4. Does the church in Royse City, Texas where Shawn Paden preaches have appointed elders?

5. If a church has appointed elders but not deacons do you believe they are still a "conservative"/"New Testament" church following the NT "pattern"?

6. Are either of you men familiar enough with the North Central C of C in Indianapolis to pass judgment on whether it is a faithful congregation? (The church does have elders and deacons.)

-Sonny
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

January 6th, 2011, 7:19 am #2

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Sonny,

I think I have a pretty good idea as to your motive for asking these questions. But they're good questions. I also think that you already know certain answers to these questions. If not, you know that you can always take time to do your own research, right?

My understanding is that Abilene Christian U. has caught up with Pepperdine University--the long-standing liberal Christian school for decades. (Was it Randy Harris, Bible teacher at ACU, who said: "I am a postmodern, mystic, panentheist. Happily situated in Churches of Christ. And I am going nowhere. You can be a postmodern, mystic, panentheist and be perfectly happy in this tradition"?) Lipscomb University may have arrived already. Freed-Hardeman Univ. may be on its way: I'm not sure. Hopefully not. Unfortunately and sadly, Rubel Shelly, once hoped for to continue the RM efforts and who did much of his undergraduate Bible studies at FHU, is now one of the more prominent change agents in the "brotherhood." I am sure there are other institutions that are "sound," biblically speaking.

Since you used the expression "for sending our youth," I would say that the "Christian" institution has a slight advantage over a non-church-related school because of "Bible" courses being offered where the student is not a Bible major. Meanwhile, I would say it is debatable as to whether or not a secular institution may have the advantage if the student is to major in business, economics, English, education, etc.

I would recommend that Bible majors attend a "School of Preaching" that is affiliated with Christ's church or New Testament literacy.

I believe there are still many churches of Christ in Nashville and in the U.S. and worldwide that are "sound," faithful congregations -- still in the majority. We just don't hear much about them. Because mega churches of Christ (uh-oh: Community Church-transformed) dominate the news.

I do not know if the congregations you mentioned have elders and/or deacons.

I do not believe that the local church, especially a newly established or a young or a small congregation is required to have elders. (A congregation may be begun with one family or two families. Wonder who should be elders and deacons, huh?) I believe that the New Testament simply specifies the qualifications for that office when the congregation is ready for such form of leadership. By inference, it would be better for the congregation to be scripturally unorganized (i.e., a congregation without an eldership because it has no men with scriptural qualifications) than to be unscripturally organized (with unqualified elders or with women elders or with the "chief" elder or archbishop, etc.).

I'm not familiar with the North Central Church of Christ in Indianapolis. Know that there are those in the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ denomination that use the name "Church of Christ." BTW, what's the issue you're trying to bring up?[/color]
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Sonny
Sonny

January 7th, 2011, 6:16 am #3

Brother Cruz,

I do not have a hidden motive, but do have a motive; a pure motive I might add.

I want to reason with you brothers about your legalistic, rigid, narrow-minded beliefs and perpetual sowing of discord.

I find it astounding that you can condemn an entire Christian University / Institution on the basis of whatever knowledge you supposedly have. Your explanation/critique for so many is neither persuasive nor substantive.

(On an aside, I have known guys who graduated from our acclaimed Preaching Schools (East Tennessee, Heritage - formerly IBC, Memphis, etc.) who were not capable of teaching the Bible but I would not say that makes all of these schools inadequate and condemn. One gentleman's best sermon (in his words) was on The Wizard Of Oz. It was pathetic and he was unequipped to preach much less teach. Sunset is the best at equipping/preparing of the Preaching Schools in my experience and judgement.)

I am very surprised yet pleased to hear you say that you believe there are many faithful churches in Nashville and the U.S. However, you say not much is mentioned about them, but you are part of the problem in your promotion of criticism of several churches and universities instead of edification for them and praise for the hundreds or thousands of others.

You are inconsistent in your judgments. If you were to list a specific C of C in Nashville or anywhere I guarantee you that I could tell you something for which that Church does not follow Scripture 100%. EVERY CHURCH and Christian in the world has misunderstandings and needs for growth in knowledge and overall Christian living. Every Christian and every church falls short of God's glory, standards, doctrine and discipleship. Therefore, what allows some churches in Nashville (and elsewhere) to have your blessing while others do not? Every church has their problems and shortcomings just as the churches addressed in Paul's writings. Madison C of C has ministries to help people (and has for decades) that it would do well for every congregation to emulate. Their compassion for the broken, desperate and hurting is tremendous. Yet, because of differences in worship preferences (you perceive as doctrines - I have argued/insisted for months are only your dogmas/traditions) they are completely BASHED on this site and ridiculed as being unsound and unfaithful.

You are not only inconsistent, but unfair because you lump everyone in with a church that has any issue.

You are also wrong because many (to be fair, not all) of your criticisms are based on dogma and not doctrine.

You are likewise wrong because you condemn churches and people (labeled "change agents") for which you do not practice Matthew 18 and going to them personally to try and settle any matters and potential sin. This makes me believe your interest is in DIVISION and not SOLUTIONS nor THEIR SOULS. Why would someone listen to you anyway after you bash them nationally on a website?

I do not know about Brother Waddey's and Brother Paden's churches concerning elders but do know they are both "small" and "conservative" but this does not mean they do not have their problems and lack consistency in biblical leadership though they and you would say they are conservative and sound. Thus, they need God's grace as much as the next church.

Finally, this website needs grace, including but not exclusively for its unscriptural (not Matt. 18 and Gal. 6:1) approach to brothers (ones you label as "ca") perceived to be in sin and for its compromised teaching and practice on sexual immorality and repentance.

My motive is to see you men who have created and promoted this site for the past decade to have hearts humbled and converted to a closer walk with Christ and a renewed love for brothers including preachers for whom you disagree.

We all need grace as we search for and teach truth. This site needs to teach the true gospel of grace.

-Sonny
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

January 7th, 2011, 11:15 am #4

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]I'll be addressing your motive and your affinity for the deeds of the change agents as they continue to sow discord in the church -- unbeknownst to you and them -- as soon as time permits.[/color]
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Dave
Dave

January 7th, 2011, 5:51 pm #5

Brother Cruz,

I do not have a hidden motive, but do have a motive; a pure motive I might add.

I want to reason with you brothers about your legalistic, rigid, narrow-minded beliefs and perpetual sowing of discord.

I find it astounding that you can condemn an entire Christian University / Institution on the basis of whatever knowledge you supposedly have. Your explanation/critique for so many is neither persuasive nor substantive.

(On an aside, I have known guys who graduated from our acclaimed Preaching Schools (East Tennessee, Heritage - formerly IBC, Memphis, etc.) who were not capable of teaching the Bible but I would not say that makes all of these schools inadequate and condemn. One gentleman's best sermon (in his words) was on The Wizard Of Oz. It was pathetic and he was unequipped to preach much less teach. Sunset is the best at equipping/preparing of the Preaching Schools in my experience and judgement.)

I am very surprised yet pleased to hear you say that you believe there are many faithful churches in Nashville and the U.S. However, you say not much is mentioned about them, but you are part of the problem in your promotion of criticism of several churches and universities instead of edification for them and praise for the hundreds or thousands of others.

You are inconsistent in your judgments. If you were to list a specific C of C in Nashville or anywhere I guarantee you that I could tell you something for which that Church does not follow Scripture 100%. EVERY CHURCH and Christian in the world has misunderstandings and needs for growth in knowledge and overall Christian living. Every Christian and every church falls short of God's glory, standards, doctrine and discipleship. Therefore, what allows some churches in Nashville (and elsewhere) to have your blessing while others do not? Every church has their problems and shortcomings just as the churches addressed in Paul's writings. Madison C of C has ministries to help people (and has for decades) that it would do well for every congregation to emulate. Their compassion for the broken, desperate and hurting is tremendous. Yet, because of differences in worship preferences (you perceive as doctrines - I have argued/insisted for months are only your dogmas/traditions) they are completely BASHED on this site and ridiculed as being unsound and unfaithful.

You are not only inconsistent, but unfair because you lump everyone in with a church that has any issue.

You are also wrong because many (to be fair, not all) of your criticisms are based on dogma and not doctrine.

You are likewise wrong because you condemn churches and people (labeled "change agents") for which you do not practice Matthew 18 and going to them personally to try and settle any matters and potential sin. This makes me believe your interest is in DIVISION and not SOLUTIONS nor THEIR SOULS. Why would someone listen to you anyway after you bash them nationally on a website?

I do not know about Brother Waddey's and Brother Paden's churches concerning elders but do know they are both "small" and "conservative" but this does not mean they do not have their problems and lack consistency in biblical leadership though they and you would say they are conservative and sound. Thus, they need God's grace as much as the next church.

Finally, this website needs grace, including but not exclusively for its unscriptural (not Matt. 18 and Gal. 6:1) approach to brothers (ones you label as "ca") perceived to be in sin and for its compromised teaching and practice on sexual immorality and repentance.

My motive is to see you men who have created and promoted this site for the past decade to have hearts humbled and converted to a closer walk with Christ and a renewed love for brothers including preachers for whom you disagree.

We all need grace as we search for and teach truth. This site needs to teach the true gospel of grace.

-Sonny
Donnie,
With Sonny's last, and very truthful statement I would like to emphasize one of his last statements and expound on it just a wee bit.

Sonny said "My motive is to see you men who have created and promoted this site for the past decade to have hearts humbled and converted to a closer walk with Christ and a renewed love for brothers including preachers for whom you disagree."

AMEN!!!
Sony has gone the extra mile in trying to be your brother. Seems that he is getting close to wiping the dust of his feet with you guys.

The only thing I wanted to add to the above remark by Sonny is this.....You men WILL have your hearts humbled, or more appropriately, you will have your knees brought to the ground.......if not in this lifetime and hopefully so.....certainly in the next.

Romans 14:11
It is written: As surely as I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.

Key word there, gents??? EVERY knee, that would include yours too....not matter how arrogant you are.

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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

January 8th, 2011, 2:27 am #6

Dave wrote: "You men WILL have your hearts humbled, or more appropriately, you will have your knees brought to the ground.......if not in this lifetime and hopefully so.....certainly in the next."

Spoken like a first-class, hypocritical fanatic.

BTW, it kinda sounds to me that if it were up to Dave, the conservatives would all be damned to hell. That's the trait of a fanatic--rubbing his hands gleefully in anticipation of seeing souls burning amid brimstone.

Sometimes, I wonder about Dave's "spiritual" motives.
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Dave
Dave

January 8th, 2011, 10:30 pm #7

The mind of William Crump further noted....
He made the following statement.

"Spoken like a first-class, hypocritical fanatic."
"BTW, it kinda sounds to me that if it were up to Dave, the conservatives would all be damned to hell. That's the trait of a fanatic--rubbing his hands gleefully in anticipation of seeing souls burning amid brimstone."

You can certainly clearly see the makeup of this man's heart. He calls someone a hypocrite then says....."Sometimes, I wonder about Dave's "spiritual" motives."

Now who is the hypocrite? We find out after he puts a smiley face after he wonders where my spiritual motives are. The smiley face shows that William certainly would not wish the person to be blessed by God, but would wish the person to be damned in hell. William, again, does exactly what he accuses other of. He slanders and accuses others of slandering him. Proof? He told someone that they have H.A.A.H (hot air and halitosis). He tells someone that they are a hypocrite and then makes the above statement.

William, again, no finger needs to be pointed at you. You do that to yourself.

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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

January 10th, 2011, 1:59 pm #8

Donnie,
With Sonny's last, and very truthful statement I would like to emphasize one of his last statements and expound on it just a wee bit.

Sonny said "My motive is to see you men who have created and promoted this site for the past decade to have hearts humbled and converted to a closer walk with Christ and a renewed love for brothers including preachers for whom you disagree."

AMEN!!!
Sony has gone the extra mile in trying to be your brother. Seems that he is getting close to wiping the dust of his feet with you guys.

The only thing I wanted to add to the above remark by Sonny is this.....You men WILL have your hearts humbled, or more appropriately, you will have your knees brought to the ground.......if not in this lifetime and hopefully so.....certainly in the next.

Romans 14:11
It is written: As surely as I live, says the Lord, every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.

Key word there, gents??? EVERY knee, that would include yours too....not matter how arrogant you are.
Dave wrote of Sonny: "Seems that he is getting close to wiping the dust of [sic] his feet with you guys." (BTW, that should be "...off his feet...")

I really don't think this site is about to kowtow to change agents and their sympathizers because their feathers are a bit ruffled. Since those bent on "change" are indeed "birds of a feather," they do have the option to spread their wings and fly...away.
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