Question About 2 Churches Of Christ (Nashville and Africa)

Sonny
Sonny

October 24th, 2010, 7:20 pm #11

Brother Crump,

I was having a good day until reading your diagnosis that I am obsessed / have an obsession. Now my day has turned cold and gray. But I am optimistic tomorrow will be warm and sunny.

-Sonny
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Richard
Richard

October 25th, 2010, 2:47 am #12

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Sonny,

You might say "that perhaps 'praise teams' are not always bad." But let me qualify and, hopefully, you will see why.

The expression "Praise Team" is creepy in a spiritual sense when it is identified as a group of musicians that sets itself apart from the congregation. Whether or not the elite club of singers is on stage or grouped together occupying the first two front rows, when they hold those individual microphones, they become "suspects." They are bound to PERFORM.

But wait. I have heard the "claim" that the elite [semi-professional] singers have the duty or responsibility to teach new [Charismatic campfire] "praise" songs to the "congregation." Let's do a little math here. If on the average the "Worship Leader" and his/her "Praise Team" sing 11 "praise" songs per week's assembly, that amounts to over 500 new songs to learn per year. That's staggering.

Do the money-making, contemporary, pop-rock "Christian" musical artists [Michael Smith, Amy Grant, Chris Tomlin, Charlie Peacock, et al] popularize that many "I Worship You, Lord" [clappy-clappy] songs in a year? OK, maybe, that's an exaggeration.

Let me say it in another way. Does the "congregation" really need the Praise Team [the CHOIR] to teach 11 new songs at every gathering? If not, then, why do the Praise Team members still show up and let their presence known, after the congregation has learned the "new" songs?

Why are the "Worship Leader" and his musicians of the post-modern age so forgetful of times in the past when the singing leader did not need the CHOIR to co-lead in the singing of a new hymn?

Oh, don't forget that the Praise Team members, both men and WOMEN, are co-worship leaders. So, in essence, now there are WOMEN worship leaders.

Well, back to the issue "that perhaps praise teams are not always bad." Praise Teams are not bad ... contingent on the following:[/color]
  • Get the church money refunded--those individual microphones can be pretty expensive, especially when the elite team has 8 or 16 or 24 or more men and WOMEN members. Or...
    </li>
  • Donate the microphones to Charismatic/Pentecostal groups to help intensify the noise of their drums, trumpets, etc.
    </li>
  • The elite singers should not be on stage at any time so that the congregation does not see them do their childish actions and whatever antics.
    </li>
  • The elite singers should not be on stage at any time so that they can not be seen to encourage or initiate rhythmic clapping [rehearsed "joy"].
    </li>
  • The elite singers do not have to occupy the first two front rows with their microphones -- the congregation will see and know when the team is performance-ready.
    </li>
  • There are more conditions...

    </li>
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Notice the word "PERFORMANCE." Such an ugly word, something God detests, when He is to be worshiped with reverence and awe.[/color]
I haven't responded to anything on this site in a very long time. In fact, until tonight, I haven't even looked at this site in over a year. Now that I'm on here again(must have had a mental breakdown) I see that nothing has really changed.

I know this is your site and you have your point of view that you are trying to get out to the uneducated masses, and I can honestly say that your point of view is the reason I didn't attend worship services for many, many years. Ken doesn't believe in any kind of singing in the assembly, although there are examples of the early Christians singing. You don't believe in PT's, and I agree with you to a point. I don't want them up on stage either, it's to much for show if it's like that. I have no problem with it if they are all sitting in their regular seats.

Here's what I think about your position Donny. You are probably a really good frustrated singer who doesn't like the new songs. I understand where you are coming from, I don't like a lot of them either. In fact, until I learned a few of them, I used to complain all the time about "camp songs" being led in worship service. I am a song leader myself, and according to a lot of people, a pretty good one. I've learned some of the newer songs and I regularly mix them in with the older songs; different people want different songs sang during worship service. I do put some soul in my singing and it comes straight from my heart. I am not a choir director, but a song leader, and singing moves my soul. I'd hate to lead singing in your church because you would probably think I'm performing, which I wouldn't be, but you'd think it none the less.

I don't have a problem with miked singers, as long as they are sitting in their normal seats and not turned up in volume enough to drown out the crowd. The church of Christ used to be known for our four part harmony and that is what I enjoy singing. Yes, I said enjoy and enjoyment is not a sin. In some churches, the singing is much better with miked singers because there are people in the audience that will sing the four part harmony if they could only hear their parts. I don't have a problem with women holding a microphone from their seats, we let women sing all the time. I totally agree with your stance on having a bunch of them on stage doing dances or whatever. But raising Holy hands to God is not a sin and neither is clapping. You can't show me where that is wrong, don't even go there with me. We are to speak to one another in psalms an hymns and making melody in our heart to the Lord. We are also told that we are admonishing one another through our singing. In fact, if you'll read the ONLY real example of a worship service over in Corinthians, you'll see that the writer talks about "if anyone has a song, let him sing it". Inferring that there was a solo involved.

I agree with you about some things and in other things I think you need to "grow up" and move on. Mr. Sublett, don't waste your time replying to this message, I will not read it. You don't even believe in an kind of singing, and in that you are wrong. I know you will not admit it, but you are.

I think the worst thing that has happened to our singing in our churches is the advent of Keith Lancaster and his music. I know Keith personally, and he is an outstanding song writer/musician. The thing is, his type of singing became popular before he put the music out there for the masses. I'm appalled and amazed at all the churches that have embraced his type of music...our singing has suffered for it....I've told him that to his face. We've lost the ability to sing four part harmony and that is the only reason I advocate miked singers. I don't want you to think that I dislike Keith in any way, I think he is a fine man and I even sang on one of his praise and harmony albums. I do not like his vocal percussion groups and have talked to him about them, nor do I want that kind of music in any worship service I'm a part of. I don't think it's wrong, I just don't like it.

Don't get on me about the five mythical acts of worship. I'm a 5th generation c of C boy and I know the doctrine just as well as any of you, probably better, and that knowledge is what has lead me to believe that it's wrong. We are saved by grace through faith, not by some mythic acts of worship and certainly not by anything we do.
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Sonny
Sonny

October 25th, 2010, 2:54 am #13

Ancient scholars understood the TWO THREADS in the Old Testament. They understood the Mount Sinai Event.

I have no reason to doubt that only about 3 members of the Church of Christ understand it.
Because of musical idolatry God "turned them over to worship the starry hosts." Therefore when people like Rick Atchley IMPOSE "worship teams" (a blasphemy) and then instruments they run SPECIFICIALLY to the patternism of the worship of the starry hosts. That is prophetic: neither he nor any of the hireling-changelings had anything to do with it.

I am reviewing Jay Quin who is on the attack against those who WILL not use instruments. This is wholly irrational.

http://www.piney.com/New.Wineskins.Inst ... .Guin.html

I have reviewed part two of the New Wineskins magazine: maybe we need a thread.
Almost without exception the "punch line" is not quoted and most of them implicate the emasculated priests of the Mother Goddess. Revelation 17-18 could never in recorded history be so literally fulfilled as the frontal assault of the NACC who has found a tiny few "dupes" they can ride like "beasts." Beast in Revelation doesn't speak of an animal but of "a new style singing and drama."

Gender compromised "praise singers" are the world's OLDEST profession. Emotionally or sexually abnormal men were always believed to be Enthus-O-Mania: only the MAD were ever used in this prophetic-priestly role.

http://www.piney.com/MuEncomiast.html

MESOPOTAMIAN CULT
Repeated in Jerusalem at the temple

In the cultic practices, humans fulfilled their destiny: to take care of the gods' material needs. They therefore provided the gods with houses (the temples) that were richly supplied with lands, which people cultivated for them. In the temple the god was present in--but not bounded by--a statue made of precious wood overlaid with gold. For this statue the temple kitchen staff prepared daily meals from produce grown or raised on the temple's fields, in its orchards, in its sheepfolds, cattle pens, and game preserves, brought in by its fishermen, or delivered by farmers owing it as a temple tax. The statue was also clad in costly raiment, bathed, and escorted to bed in the bedchamber of the god, often on top of the temple tower, or ziggurat.

To see to all of this the god had priests trained as cooks, bakers, waiters, and bathers, or as encomiasts (singers of praise) and musicians

to make the god's meals festive, or as elegists to soothe him in times of stress and grief. Diversions from the daily routine were the great monthly festivals and also a number of special occasions.


Both the tithe and the Sabbath WORSHIP are of Babylon: God gave the sabbath to REST where the synagogue was held in each local area.
I am interested in hearing more from both brothers.

Brother Sublett,

You mention again that your (3 men on this site) view on instruments is not held, even, by most in Churches of Christ. You have been honest with me about this earlier too on another thread and cyber-discussion on your interpretive method(s).

Anyway, do you believe that as long as churches do not practice IM, that those with "praise teams" are o.k. with God (at least on this issue), or do you believe that acappella praise teams are also always wrong? It is my understanding from Brother Cruz that he bases it on 9 questions / issues, respectively.

I personally believe that Brother Cruz brings up some valid points based on "principles" taught in Scripture pertaining to worship, and personally believe that a congregation could utilize singers in some ways, which I believe he implies in his answer. (If this is wrong Brother Cruz, you can correct me.) However, I have never been at a congregation which worships weekly with a praise team.

Thanks for sharing your perspective.

Also, for Brother Cruz:

What became the "breaking point" so to speak for you with Madison? The reason I say this is because you seem to be willing to tolerate some change/diversity, so I am interested in learning what caused you to be at odds with the church/leadership. (I realize it may not be 1 thing but several, and don't feel you must go into great detail on any point as I will not be trying to critique your response, as some might, but I am interested mostly in hearing what change/diversity you were willing to tolerate / be at peace with, though perhaps sharing your concerns or disagreement before matters became too much in your mind.) Like, were you tolerant of praise teams to a point, but not the instruments? Were you intolerant of both, but were tolerant of clapping during an occasional song, etc. I think you get the idea of what I'm asking.

Thanks also to you for sharing your perspective.

-Sonny
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

October 25th, 2010, 3:18 am #14

Brother Crump,

I was having a good day until reading your diagnosis that I am obsessed / have an obsession. Now my day has turned cold and gray. But I am optimistic tomorrow will be warm and sunny.

-Sonny
Sonny, if you allow your days to turn "cold and gray" because of someone's less-than-sunny opinion of you, then that opinion apparently hits home and you believe it. Were I to fall to pieces every time someone voiced an opinion of me that I didn't like, I'd live in one perpetually cold, gray world. Thank goodness my days are, metaphorically speaking, warm and sunny.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

October 25th, 2010, 4:36 am #15

I haven't responded to anything on this site in a very long time. In fact, until tonight, I haven't even looked at this site in over a year. Now that I'm on here again(must have had a mental breakdown) I see that nothing has really changed.

I know this is your site and you have your point of view that you are trying to get out to the uneducated masses, and I can honestly say that your point of view is the reason I didn't attend worship services for many, many years. Ken doesn't believe in any kind of singing in the assembly, although there are examples of the early Christians singing. You don't believe in PT's, and I agree with you to a point. I don't want them up on stage either, it's to much for show if it's like that. I have no problem with it if they are all sitting in their regular seats.

Here's what I think about your position Donny. You are probably a really good frustrated singer who doesn't like the new songs. I understand where you are coming from, I don't like a lot of them either. In fact, until I learned a few of them, I used to complain all the time about "camp songs" being led in worship service. I am a song leader myself, and according to a lot of people, a pretty good one. I've learned some of the newer songs and I regularly mix them in with the older songs; different people want different songs sang during worship service. I do put some soul in my singing and it comes straight from my heart. I am not a choir director, but a song leader, and singing moves my soul. I'd hate to lead singing in your church because you would probably think I'm performing, which I wouldn't be, but you'd think it none the less.

I don't have a problem with miked singers, as long as they are sitting in their normal seats and not turned up in volume enough to drown out the crowd. The church of Christ used to be known for our four part harmony and that is what I enjoy singing. Yes, I said enjoy and enjoyment is not a sin. In some churches, the singing is much better with miked singers because there are people in the audience that will sing the four part harmony if they could only hear their parts. I don't have a problem with women holding a microphone from their seats, we let women sing all the time. I totally agree with your stance on having a bunch of them on stage doing dances or whatever. But raising Holy hands to God is not a sin and neither is clapping. You can't show me where that is wrong, don't even go there with me. We are to speak to one another in psalms an hymns and making melody in our heart to the Lord. We are also told that we are admonishing one another through our singing. In fact, if you'll read the ONLY real example of a worship service over in Corinthians, you'll see that the writer talks about "if anyone has a song, let him sing it". Inferring that there was a solo involved.

I agree with you about some things and in other things I think you need to "grow up" and move on. Mr. Sublett, don't waste your time replying to this message, I will not read it. You don't even believe in an kind of singing, and in that you are wrong. I know you will not admit it, but you are.

I think the worst thing that has happened to our singing in our churches is the advent of Keith Lancaster and his music. I know Keith personally, and he is an outstanding song writer/musician. The thing is, his type of singing became popular before he put the music out there for the masses. I'm appalled and amazed at all the churches that have embraced his type of music...our singing has suffered for it....I've told him that to his face. We've lost the ability to sing four part harmony and that is the only reason I advocate miked singers. I don't want you to think that I dislike Keith in any way, I think he is a fine man and I even sang on one of his praise and harmony albums. I do not like his vocal percussion groups and have talked to him about them, nor do I want that kind of music in any worship service I'm a part of. I don't think it's wrong, I just don't like it.

Don't get on me about the five mythical acts of worship. I'm a 5th generation c of C boy and I know the doctrine just as well as any of you, probably better, and that knowledge is what has lead me to believe that it's wrong. We are saved by grace through faith, not by some mythic acts of worship and certainly not by anything we do.
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Richard,

Welcome back. Thanks so much for your message(s) [quite a few points worth discussing or studying]. I would hate to promise for fear that I may not be able to keep it. But I promise, anyway, to address the points you've brought up as soon as I get a chance. It may surprise you to "find out" that we may be in agreement for the most part.[/color]
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

October 25th, 2010, 7:18 am #16

I am interested in hearing more from both brothers.

Brother Sublett,

You mention again that your (3 men on this site) view on instruments is not held, even, by most in Churches of Christ. You have been honest with me about this earlier too on another thread and cyber-discussion on your interpretive method(s).

Anyway, do you believe that as long as churches do not practice IM, that those with "praise teams" are o.k. with God (at least on this issue), or do you believe that acappella praise teams are also always wrong? It is my understanding from Brother Cruz that he bases it on 9 questions / issues, respectively.

I personally believe that Brother Cruz brings up some valid points based on "principles" taught in Scripture pertaining to worship, and personally believe that a congregation could utilize singers in some ways, which I believe he implies in his answer. (If this is wrong Brother Cruz, you can correct me.) However, I have never been at a congregation which worships weekly with a praise team.

Thanks for sharing your perspective.

Also, for Brother Cruz:

What became the "breaking point" so to speak for you with Madison? The reason I say this is because you seem to be willing to tolerate some change/diversity, so I am interested in learning what caused you to be at odds with the church/leadership. (I realize it may not be 1 thing but several, and don't feel you must go into great detail on any point as I will not be trying to critique your response, as some might, but I am interested mostly in hearing what change/diversity you were willing to tolerate / be at peace with, though perhaps sharing your concerns or disagreement before matters became too much in your mind.) Like, were you tolerant of praise teams to a point, but not the instruments? Were you intolerant of both, but were tolerant of clapping during an occasional song, etc. I think you get the idea of what I'm asking.

Thanks also to you for sharing your perspective.

-Sonny
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Thanks for your interest. "I shall return" to respond ... later on. I appreciate your patience.[/color]
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

October 25th, 2010, 12:33 pm #17

I haven't responded to anything on this site in a very long time. In fact, until tonight, I haven't even looked at this site in over a year. Now that I'm on here again(must have had a mental breakdown) I see that nothing has really changed.

I know this is your site and you have your point of view that you are trying to get out to the uneducated masses, and I can honestly say that your point of view is the reason I didn't attend worship services for many, many years. Ken doesn't believe in any kind of singing in the assembly, although there are examples of the early Christians singing. You don't believe in PT's, and I agree with you to a point. I don't want them up on stage either, it's to much for show if it's like that. I have no problem with it if they are all sitting in their regular seats.

Here's what I think about your position Donny. You are probably a really good frustrated singer who doesn't like the new songs. I understand where you are coming from, I don't like a lot of them either. In fact, until I learned a few of them, I used to complain all the time about "camp songs" being led in worship service. I am a song leader myself, and according to a lot of people, a pretty good one. I've learned some of the newer songs and I regularly mix them in with the older songs; different people want different songs sang during worship service. I do put some soul in my singing and it comes straight from my heart. I am not a choir director, but a song leader, and singing moves my soul. I'd hate to lead singing in your church because you would probably think I'm performing, which I wouldn't be, but you'd think it none the less.

I don't have a problem with miked singers, as long as they are sitting in their normal seats and not turned up in volume enough to drown out the crowd. The church of Christ used to be known for our four part harmony and that is what I enjoy singing. Yes, I said enjoy and enjoyment is not a sin. In some churches, the singing is much better with miked singers because there are people in the audience that will sing the four part harmony if they could only hear their parts. I don't have a problem with women holding a microphone from their seats, we let women sing all the time. I totally agree with your stance on having a bunch of them on stage doing dances or whatever. But raising Holy hands to God is not a sin and neither is clapping. You can't show me where that is wrong, don't even go there with me. We are to speak to one another in psalms an hymns and making melody in our heart to the Lord. We are also told that we are admonishing one another through our singing. In fact, if you'll read the ONLY real example of a worship service over in Corinthians, you'll see that the writer talks about "if anyone has a song, let him sing it". Inferring that there was a solo involved.

I agree with you about some things and in other things I think you need to "grow up" and move on. Mr. Sublett, don't waste your time replying to this message, I will not read it. You don't even believe in an kind of singing, and in that you are wrong. I know you will not admit it, but you are.

I think the worst thing that has happened to our singing in our churches is the advent of Keith Lancaster and his music. I know Keith personally, and he is an outstanding song writer/musician. The thing is, his type of singing became popular before he put the music out there for the masses. I'm appalled and amazed at all the churches that have embraced his type of music...our singing has suffered for it....I've told him that to his face. We've lost the ability to sing four part harmony and that is the only reason I advocate miked singers. I don't want you to think that I dislike Keith in any way, I think he is a fine man and I even sang on one of his praise and harmony albums. I do not like his vocal percussion groups and have talked to him about them, nor do I want that kind of music in any worship service I'm a part of. I don't think it's wrong, I just don't like it.

Don't get on me about the five mythical acts of worship. I'm a 5th generation c of C boy and I know the doctrine just as well as any of you, probably better, and that knowledge is what has lead me to believe that it's wrong. We are saved by grace through faith, not by some mythic acts of worship and certainly not by anything we do.
Richard wrote: "Don't get on me about the five mythical acts of worship. I'm a 5th generation c of C boy and I know the doctrine just as well as any of you, probably better, and that knowledge is what has lead me to believe that it's wrong. We are saved by grace through faith, not by some mythic acts of worship and certainly not by anything we do."

When Richard says the "five mythical acts of worship," I gather that he is referring to the singing, preaching/studying the Word, giving of our means, praying, and taking the Lord's Supper, all of which are mentioned in the New Testament. Strange, I didn't think any part of the New Testament was "mythical," but I suppose that, in this postmodern age, some Christians have changed their mind about that. Next, I wonder if Richard will tell us that, since we are "saved by grace through faith," then Jesus' requirements for salvation are also "mythical."

BTW, Jesus' requirements for salvation are: hearing the Gospel, believing the Gospel, repenting of sins, confessing Jesus as Lord before mankind, being baptized for remission of sins, and leading a life of obedience to Him by serving Him and doing good for mankind. These requirements should be very familiar to a "5th generation c of C boy." They are all mentioned in the New Testament, and there is an entire thread on this board devoted to that subject, titled "Christ's Requirements for Salvation." I suggest that Richard read and study the lead post in that thread.

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Donnie
Donnie

October 26th, 2010, 7:20 pm #18

I am interested in hearing more from both brothers.

Brother Sublett,

You mention again that your (3 men on this site) view on instruments is not held, even, by most in Churches of Christ. You have been honest with me about this earlier too on another thread and cyber-discussion on your interpretive method(s).

Anyway, do you believe that as long as churches do not practice IM, that those with "praise teams" are o.k. with God (at least on this issue), or do you believe that acappella praise teams are also always wrong? It is my understanding from Brother Cruz that he bases it on 9 questions / issues, respectively.

I personally believe that Brother Cruz brings up some valid points based on "principles" taught in Scripture pertaining to worship, and personally believe that a congregation could utilize singers in some ways, which I believe he implies in his answer. (If this is wrong Brother Cruz, you can correct me.) However, I have never been at a congregation which worships weekly with a praise team.

Thanks for sharing your perspective.

Also, for Brother Cruz:

What became the "breaking point" so to speak for you with Madison? The reason I say this is because you seem to be willing to tolerate some change/diversity, so I am interested in learning what caused you to be at odds with the church/leadership. (I realize it may not be 1 thing but several, and don't feel you must go into great detail on any point as I will not be trying to critique your response, as some might, but I am interested mostly in hearing what change/diversity you were willing to tolerate / be at peace with, though perhaps sharing your concerns or disagreement before matters became too much in your mind.) Like, were you tolerant of praise teams to a point, but not the instruments? Were you intolerant of both, but were tolerant of clapping during an occasional song, etc. I think you get the idea of what I'm asking.

Thanks also to you for sharing your perspective.

-Sonny
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Sonny,

LOL, you've brought up the subject of "praise teams," but yet you said: "I have never been at a congregation which worships weekly with a praise team." You know, I was wondering about that and going to ask how thrilling, exciting and enjoyable is your "Praise Team" performing to and for YOUR own congregation.

It is more than just recognizing the post-modern shift "in the church" [or I should say more accurately: in certain mega congregations of "the Lord's church"]:
[/color]
(1) FROM: Congregational singing with someone leading or starting the song
(2) TO: Performance-driven "Praise Team" coordinating "worship" with the "Worship Leader"
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Much of today's concept of worship is based on the change agents' agenda that "worship" is about being able to say and express: "My Jesus, oh, how I love you. My heart yearns for more of you. Your name is like perfume poured out. Jesus my darling, lover of my heart. How beautiful You are, my darling." Or, express "I worship and bow down before you, Lord" in an upbeat tempo and "clap-clap, clap-clap-clap" simultaneously. It's a pathetic scene to clap and bow before the Lord at the same time.

If the Praise Team members weren't on stage or seated in the two front rows with their overpowering, amplified "sound(s) of music," if they were just sitting in their regular seats but can still be heard, there wouldn't be an official, elite group called "Praise Team" vs. congregational singing. [There's more to say about this when I respond to Richard's post above.]

Since most of the "breaking point" you mentioned has already been discussed all over this forum, I'll just make a few brief statements:[/color]
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Foremost concerning the Madison congregation was the intrusion and infiltration by the change agents in the 90s for about a decade. The slick methodologies used were gradualism, incrementalism, etc. You've heard of the "boiling the frog" story, haven't you?[/color]
    "They say that if you put a frog into a pot of boiling water, it will leap out right away to escape the danger. But, if you put a frog in a kettle that is filled with water that is cool and pleasant, and then you gradually heat the kettle until it starts boiling, the frog will not become aware of the threat until it is too late.

    The frog's survival instincts are geared towards detecting sudden changes.
    "
    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Certain church leaders were actually on the Saddleback Community Church campus in CA (Rick Warren is still the pastor) to observe and learn about the culture-driven "church growth" phenomenon in the 16,000-member "Community Church."[/color]

    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]The leadership was to implement a number of changes including but not only the involvement of the "Praise Team" [similar to the Baptist CHOIR] in "worship services." [/color]

    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]The eldership was divided over a number of changes and issues. Of course, there were elders, not wanting to compromise the truth and divide the congregation, who resigned or left. The winning part of the eldership continued with the changes and told the congregation "to get over it; we must move on."[/color]

    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]The "Praise Team" was one of the biggest issues. It is a long story. In the end, half of the membership left or went to seek fellowship with nearby congregations. It's been almost 10 years since the upheaval. It is said that the congregation is recovering -- time will tell. Currently, "worship services" are split between: (a) "traditional" [without the Praise Team being "visible"] and (b) "contemporary" ["Worship Leader" with "Praise Team" co-leading and musicating].[/color]

    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]I am not opposed to changes in the use of new technologies. Powerpoint is wonderful. I'd prefer displaying the "hymns" with musical notes on the wide screen rather than just the words. [There are rules concerning the display of words, such as by not using the comma, etc.] Have you heard of the "Paperless Hymnal"? Some congregations display hymns from "Paperless Hymnal." I think that the use of it would mean less dependence on the CHOIR and more singing by the congregation, especially among those who can read music notes. Those who can read music notes are not stupid, you know.[/color]

    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Clapping? I clap when I'm entertained, when there's a performance. I clap with the cheerleading squad during a sports event, etc. Clapping is a distraction to those who worship in reverence and awe. Clapping is not a distraction to performers and their audience. Extreme clapping may scare the daylights out of senior saints who seriously think about their own worship of the Father in heaven. I am opposed to rhythmic clapping (a.k.a. "programmed joy").[/color]

    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]There are so many more issues, I know.
    [/color]</li>
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]"Being at odds with...."? I'll let you determine that from what I've written. I think that the question should be that the change agents are at odds with the entire brotherhood. Well, my break time is over.[/color]
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Sonny
Sonny

October 27th, 2010, 1:38 am #19

Sonny, if you allow your days to turn "cold and gray" because of someone's less-than-sunny opinion of you, then that opinion apparently hits home and you believe it. Were I to fall to pieces every time someone voiced an opinion of me that I didn't like, I'd live in one perpetually cold, gray world. Thank goodness my days are, metaphorically speaking, warm and sunny.
Brother Crump,

Apparently you could not tell I was being facetious. My day was not cold and gray as a result of your comments. I realize this may disappoint you.

-Sonny

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Sonny
Sonny

October 27th, 2010, 2:03 am #20

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Sonny,

LOL, you've brought up the subject of "praise teams," but yet you said: "I have never been at a congregation which worships weekly with a praise team." You know, I was wondering about that and going to ask how thrilling, exciting and enjoyable is your "Praise Team" performing to and for YOUR own congregation.

It is more than just recognizing the post-modern shift "in the church" [or I should say more accurately: in certain mega congregations of "the Lord's church"]:
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(1) FROM: Congregational singing with someone leading or starting the song
(2) TO: Performance-driven "Praise Team" coordinating "worship" with the "Worship Leader"
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Much of today's concept of worship is based on the change agents' agenda that "worship" is about being able to say and express: "My Jesus, oh, how I love you. My heart yearns for more of you. Your name is like perfume poured out. Jesus my darling, lover of my heart. How beautiful You are, my darling." Or, express "I worship and bow down before you, Lord" in an upbeat tempo and "clap-clap, clap-clap-clap" simultaneously. It's a pathetic scene to clap and bow before the Lord at the same time.

If the Praise Team members weren't on stage or seated in the two front rows with their overpowering, amplified "sound(s) of music," if they were just sitting in their regular seats but can still be heard, there wouldn't be an official, elite group called "Praise Team" vs. congregational singing. [There's more to say about this when I respond to Richard's post above.]

Since most of the "breaking point" you mentioned has already been discussed all over this forum, I'll just make a few brief statements:[/color]
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Foremost concerning the Madison congregation was the intrusion and infiltration by the change agents in the 90s for about a decade. The slick methodologies used were gradualism, incrementalism, etc. You've heard of the "boiling the frog" story, haven't you?[/color]
    "They say that if you put a frog into a pot of boiling water, it will leap out right away to escape the danger. But, if you put a frog in a kettle that is filled with water that is cool and pleasant, and then you gradually heat the kettle until it starts boiling, the frog will not become aware of the threat until it is too late.

    The frog's survival instincts are geared towards detecting sudden changes.
    "
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  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Certain church leaders were actually on the Saddleback Community Church campus in CA (Rick Warren is still the pastor) to observe and learn about the culture-driven "church growth" phenomenon in the 16,000-member "Community Church."[/color]

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  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]The leadership was to implement a number of changes including but not only the involvement of the "Praise Team" [similar to the Baptist CHOIR] in "worship services." [/color]

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  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]The eldership was divided over a number of changes and issues. Of course, there were elders, not wanting to compromise the truth and divide the congregation, who resigned or left. The winning part of the eldership continued with the changes and told the congregation "to get over it; we must move on."[/color]

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  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]The "Praise Team" was one of the biggest issues. It is a long story. In the end, half of the membership left or went to seek fellowship with nearby congregations. It's been almost 10 years since the upheaval. It is said that the congregation is recovering -- time will tell. Currently, "worship services" are split between: (a) "traditional" [without the Praise Team being "visible"] and (b) "contemporary" ["Worship Leader" with "Praise Team" co-leading and musicating].[/color]

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  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]I am not opposed to changes in the use of new technologies. Powerpoint is wonderful. I'd prefer displaying the "hymns" with musical notes on the wide screen rather than just the words. [There are rules concerning the display of words, such as by not using the comma, etc.] Have you heard of the "Paperless Hymnal"? Some congregations display hymns from "Paperless Hymnal." I think that the use of it would mean less dependence on the CHOIR and more singing by the congregation, especially among those who can read music notes. Those who can read music notes are not stupid, you know.[/color]

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  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Clapping? I clap when I'm entertained, when there's a performance. I clap with the cheerleading squad during a sports event, etc. Clapping is a distraction to those who worship in reverence and awe. Clapping is not a distraction to performers and their audience. Extreme clapping may scare the daylights out of senior saints who seriously think about their own worship of the Father in heaven. I am opposed to rhythmic clapping (a.k.a. "programmed joy").[/color]

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  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]There are so many more issues, I know.
    [/color]</li>
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]"Being at odds with...."? I'll let you determine that from what I've written. I think that the question should be that the change agents are at odds with the entire brotherhood. Well, my break time is over.[/color]
Brother Cruz,

Thank you for sharing your experience and perspective. I gather that your primary issues are praise teams and then clapping. Perhaps I misunderstand, but I deduce from this that the church at Madison indeed worships acappella and not with instruments.

No, pertaining to a weekly experience with a praise team. Have only experienced on a few occasions when visiting elsewhere. I can see pros and cons depending on a given situation, but nothing directly in Scripture forbidding.

I hope you have found a congregation where you can worship in peace.

Again, when I began posting my beef was with you know who (won't rehash though it is still a valid point in my opinion).

I do think that a few on this site have a narrow, legalistic, self-righteous, sectarian, Pharisaical view of God and others/church.

I used to be this way. Brothers in Christ loved me while challenging my perspective, interpretive methods, and inconsistencies. Thanks be to God.

-Sonny

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