Q&A: Who is dividing the church, page 1 update on K.C.Moser LU foundation

Kenneth Sublett
Kenneth Sublett

October 12th, 2004, 4:25 pm #21

Jesus discounted the flesh and said MY WORDS are SPIRIT and they are LIFE. The Words of Christ the Spirit simply will not "stick" or reside in A human spirit which is not HOLY or undefiled. In the Old Testament God promised to give US a NEW, HOLY SPIRIT and the purpose was so that we would keep His commands.
  • <font color=blue>"Again--Some will say, What does the expression Holy Spirit mean? Well, in scripture it stands first for God the Holy Spirit, and secondly for the holy mind or spirit of a believer-- for illustration, take Peter's words to Ananias, "Why has Satan tempted you to lie to the Holy Spirit; you have not lied to men, but to God," (the Holy Spirit.) And the Saviour says, How much more will your heavenly Father give A holy spirit (as it should be translated) to those that ask him. Again--Praying in A holy spirit. Again--Paul says he approved himself God's servant "by knowledge, by long sufferings, by kindness, by a holy spirit'" by a mind innocent of the love of gain, or commerce, or sensuality. Walter Scott

    "But an old Hubris tends to bring forth in evil men, sooner or later, at the fated hour of birth, a young Hubris and that irresistible, unconquerable, unholy spirit, Recklessness, and for the household black Curses, which resemble their parents. - John M. Allegro, The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross.

    Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the GIFT of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38 </font>
The purpose for remission of sins is that God can WASH our HUMAN spirit so that it becomes A holy spirit. It is OUR spirits which hold the SINS and it is OUR spirit which needs to be purged to make IT holy:
  • <font color=blue>Hagios (g40) hag'-ee-os; from hagos , (an awful thing) [comp. 53, 2282]; sacred (phys. pure, mor. blameless or religious, cer. CONSECRATED): - (most) holy (one, thing), saint

    Hagnos (g53) hag-nos'; from the same as 40; prop. CLEAN, i.e. (fig.) innocent, modest, perfect: - chaste, clean, pure. </font>
The same Paul wrote:
  • <font color=blue>Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for A clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 1 Peter 3:21 </font>
The word "conscience" also means CONSIOUSNESS. Only by having OUR conscience MADE HOLY or cleared can we have A CLEAR CONSIOUSNESS of God and His Word. This word means A co-perception. You don't let God in until HE has swept out the 'demons.'
  • <font color=blue>Let us draw near with a TRUE HEART in full assurance of faith, having our HEARTS sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Heb.10:22

    And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are SANCTIFIED, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and BY the Spirit of our God. 1Co.6:11

    Sanctified is:

    Hagiazo (g37) hag-ee-ad'-zo; from 40; to make holy, i.e. (cer.) purify or consecrate; (MENTALLY) to venerate: - hallow, be holy, sanctify. </font>
Now, take a look at First Corinthians and grasp that the word "spirit" is never capitalized for us and SPIRIT in both Hebrew and Greek speaks of either God Who is Holy or WHOLLY Spirit without body parts.
  • <font color=blue>But he that is joined unto the Lord is ONE SPIRIT. 1 Cor 6:17 </font>
That CANNOT mean that we are the SAME Spirit Being but that we have one MENTAL DISPOSITION which is what SPIRIT means unless it applies to God Who does not have a SEPARATED Spirit.
  • <font color=blue> Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against HIS OWN BODY 1 Cor 6:18

    What? know ye not that your body is the TEMPLE of the HOLY SPIRIT which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 1 Cor 6:19

    For ye are BOUGHT with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in YOUR SPIRIT, which are Gods. 1 Cor 6:20 </font>
THE holy spirit is YOUR SPIRIT which has been MADE holy only at the time and place of baptism.

One of the clearest opinions in scholarly history is that Paul NEVER speaks of the Holy Spirit as a "person" separated from the one God. Spirit is the spirit OF Christ where SPIRIT in both Hebrew and Greek speaks of the spirit OF or the mental disposition OF someone:
  • <font color=blue>And be renewed in the spirit OF your mind; Ep.4:23 </font>
Our spirit is our heart or OUR MIND. Spirit seaks of the MENTAL DISPOSITION of our MIND.
  • <font color=blue> Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in ONE spirit, with ONE MIND striving together for the faith of the gospel; Ph.1:27

    For God hath not given us the spirit OF fear; but of power, and of love, and of a SOUND MIND. 2Ti.1:7 </font>
ALL speaking in tongues was to VALIDATE the Apostles and not to SAVE an individual. "These signs SHALL FOLLOW THEM." Therefore, we never hear a MALE speaking in tongues outside of the presence of an apostle: Cornelius had been LIFTED UP by Peter. There is no example of any FEMALE speaking in tongues other than in Corinth and this was speaking DIALECTS or languages and Paul told them to stop it.

If one claims that THE HOLY SPIRIT literally lives in their carnal body then they claim that God would live in a polluted TEMPLE. It would also claim to be EQUAL to the Incarnation in Jesus Christ. And so many do.

http://www.piney.com/HsMindSp.html

Ken
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Dustin B.
Dustin B.

October 12th, 2004, 6:31 pm #22

There is no separate entity, there is one God and he consists of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. I know that the spirit isn't some sort of little guy that hops into your body. But what I was wondering was if the Holy Spirit can be received by those that are not Saved. Since then I've looked into it and here's what I've found:

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Co 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

And if the Holy Spirit is in the Saved and not those that aren't Saved, then why did Peter baptize AFTER the Holy Ghost was received?

Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Well thank you all for not exploding on me when I asked, I've seen some heated debates in here and have read up on a lot of your opinions. Since I've done so, I can see many repetitions in the arguments presented and I can pretty much predict what will be said next, so I'll be leaving now. I really should have just read on instead of wasting space in here, and I apologize for that. I'm glad to see your congregation is so large, over 1,000! Wow, I've never been part of a congregation of more than 80. The regular church attendance in my church is about 40-50 on Sundays, and I consider that quite a bit!

I probably won't be coming back to this site, so e-mail me any comments if you see that it's prudent. I think from what I read that my ways are seen as a hell-bound way from your standpoint, but I can't hold it against you. I also cannot change my viewpoint because I don't worship for you or myself or anyone, for that matter, but I do it for God and I do what I read in the Bible. If I read that something has to be done, I do it. If his word says not to do something, I won't. Earlier I said I was interdenominational because I lacked a better term. The fact is, I believe denominations do not mean a thing. When we are facing Judgement, Christ isn't going to separate the Baptists from the Methodists from the Catholics so on and so forth, but we'll ALL be judged accordingly. Until that day, no one knows for sure who EXACTLY is going to hell. It's simply not our call. I doubt I could hold up against the Dr. Crump or Mr. Cruz in a debate/discussion about the subjects because I'm only 18 and I've been in Christ for only 5 years. I hope I've managed to discuss these matters calmly with you all and make my points well enough. I could have used some fancy <font color=blue size=+2>HTML</font>, but I just wanted to ask a few quick questions. Like the Brother above said, whether or not you believe I am going to heaven is moot. But I sure hope to see you guys when we all get there. Dr. Crump, Mr. Cruz and I will sit down and talk with Jesus about all a whole bunch of things. Wouldn't that be just awesome? I, myself, can't wait. Please e-mail me if you want to talk, I'd be glad to hear from you.
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Dustin B.
Dustin B.

October 24th, 2004, 4:25 am #23

Jesus discounted the flesh and said MY WORDS are SPIRIT and they are LIFE. The Words of Christ the Spirit simply will not "stick" or reside in A human spirit which is not HOLY or undefiled. In the Old Testament God promised to give US a NEW, HOLY SPIRIT and the purpose was so that we would keep His commands.
  • <font color=blue>"Again--Some will say, What does the expression Holy Spirit mean? Well, in scripture it stands first for God the Holy Spirit, and secondly for the holy mind or spirit of a believer-- for illustration, take Peter's words to Ananias, "Why has Satan tempted you to lie to the Holy Spirit; you have not lied to men, but to God," (the Holy Spirit.) And the Saviour says, How much more will your heavenly Father give A holy spirit (as it should be translated) to those that ask him. Again--Praying in A holy spirit. Again--Paul says he approved himself God's servant "by knowledge, by long sufferings, by kindness, by a holy spirit'" by a mind innocent of the love of gain, or commerce, or sensuality. Walter Scott

    "But an old Hubris tends to bring forth in evil men, sooner or later, at the fated hour of birth, a young Hubris and that irresistible, unconquerable, unholy spirit, Recklessness, and for the household black Curses, which resemble their parents. - John M. Allegro, The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross.

    Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the GIFT of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38 </font>
The purpose for remission of sins is that God can WASH our HUMAN spirit so that it becomes A holy spirit. It is OUR spirits which hold the SINS and it is OUR spirit which needs to be purged to make IT holy:
  • <font color=blue>Hagios (g40) hag'-ee-os; from hagos , (an awful thing) [comp. 53, 2282]; sacred (phys. pure, mor. blameless or religious, cer. CONSECRATED): - (most) holy (one, thing), saint

    Hagnos (g53) hag-nos'; from the same as 40; prop. CLEAN, i.e. (fig.) innocent, modest, perfect: - chaste, clean, pure. </font>
The same Paul wrote:
  • <font color=blue>Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for A clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 1 Peter 3:21 </font>
The word "conscience" also means CONSIOUSNESS. Only by having OUR conscience MADE HOLY or cleared can we have A CLEAR CONSIOUSNESS of God and His Word. This word means A co-perception. You don't let God in until HE has swept out the 'demons.'
  • <font color=blue>Let us draw near with a TRUE HEART in full assurance of faith, having our HEARTS sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Heb.10:22

    And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are SANCTIFIED, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and BY the Spirit of our God. 1Co.6:11

    Sanctified is:

    Hagiazo (g37) hag-ee-ad'-zo; from 40; to make holy, i.e. (cer.) purify or consecrate; (MENTALLY) to venerate: - hallow, be holy, sanctify. </font>
Now, take a look at First Corinthians and grasp that the word "spirit" is never capitalized for us and SPIRIT in both Hebrew and Greek speaks of either God Who is Holy or WHOLLY Spirit without body parts.
  • <font color=blue>But he that is joined unto the Lord is ONE SPIRIT. 1 Cor 6:17 </font>
That CANNOT mean that we are the SAME Spirit Being but that we have one MENTAL DISPOSITION which is what SPIRIT means unless it applies to God Who does not have a SEPARATED Spirit.
  • <font color=blue> Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against HIS OWN BODY 1 Cor 6:18

    What? know ye not that your body is the TEMPLE of the HOLY SPIRIT which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 1 Cor 6:19

    For ye are BOUGHT with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in YOUR SPIRIT, which are Gods. 1 Cor 6:20 </font>
THE holy spirit is YOUR SPIRIT which has been MADE holy only at the time and place of baptism.

One of the clearest opinions in scholarly history is that Paul NEVER speaks of the Holy Spirit as a "person" separated from the one God. Spirit is the spirit OF Christ where SPIRIT in both Hebrew and Greek speaks of the spirit OF or the mental disposition OF someone:
  • <font color=blue>And be renewed in the spirit OF your mind; Ep.4:23 </font>
Our spirit is our heart or OUR MIND. Spirit seaks of the MENTAL DISPOSITION of our MIND.
  • <font color=blue> Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in ONE spirit, with ONE MIND striving together for the faith of the gospel; Ph.1:27

    For God hath not given us the spirit OF fear; but of power, and of love, and of a SOUND MIND. 2Ti.1:7 </font>
ALL speaking in tongues was to VALIDATE the Apostles and not to SAVE an individual. "These signs SHALL FOLLOW THEM." Therefore, we never hear a MALE speaking in tongues outside of the presence of an apostle: Cornelius had been LIFTED UP by Peter. There is no example of any FEMALE speaking in tongues other than in Corinth and this was speaking DIALECTS or languages and Paul told them to stop it.

If one claims that THE HOLY SPIRIT literally lives in their carnal body then they claim that God would live in a polluted TEMPLE. It would also claim to be EQUAL to the Incarnation in Jesus Christ. And so many do.

http://www.piney.com/HsMindSp.html

Ken
I'm back! I didn't think I would be, but I have some things to lay down on the table or I'll feel like I didn't do my duty as a Christian.

Jesus discounted the flesh and said MY WORDS are SPIRIT and they are LIFE. The Words of Christ the Spirit simply will not "stick" or reside in A human spirit which is not HOLY or undefiled. In the Old Testament God promised to give US a NEW, HOLY SPIRIT and the purpose was so that we would keep His commands.

Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.


If a divine being cannot reside in Flesh, then the two above statements are stating that Jesus himself is not Divine since he said he will reside in us. He said he will reside in us through the Use of the Holy Spirit:

Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
Joh 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.


The purpose for remission of sins is that God can WASH our HUMAN spirit so that it becomes A holy spirit. It is OUR spirits which hold the SINS and it is OUR spirit which needs to be purged to make IT holy:

Rom 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

In all of these, Spirit and Holy Ghost are capitalized.

I would like to finish with a couple other verses:

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Spirit is Capitalized and it is "of God", not "of us".

1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Notice that it states that it is a he not an it. It also says it has a will. Spirit is capitalized.

1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

The same spirit spoke of in Acts which reveals things to us is spoken of here, and it is referred to as "his Spirit" and also it is "the Spirit" that searcheth all things, the deep things of God. It is God's spirit, the Holy Spirit, not ours.

1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

It doesn't get any clearer there. THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD DWELLS IN US. In our dirty temple.

Act 5:3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
Act 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.


Lie to the Holy Ghost is a lie to God. Not to our spirit, not to us.

Matt. 28:19, "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,"

There are three things we are to baptize people in the name of: The Father, the son, AND the Holy Spirit.

2 Cor. 13:14, "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all."

Again, the Holy Spirit is mentioned. How can the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with us all if the "holy spirit" is only our own spirits cleansed?

Rom. 8:9, "However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him." See also Gen. 1:2

The Spirit of God dwells in YOU. The Spirit is a divine spirit, not our own cleansed spirit.

Matt. 10:10, "For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you."

The Spirit of the Father IN US.

Rom. 8:11, "But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you."
John 6:63, "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life."
1 John 5:7, "And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is the truth."


There ARE instances where we are told "spirit" and not "THE SPIRIT". Above, you have an example of both "spirit" and "THE SPIRIT".

Rom. 8:27, "and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God."

The Holy Spirit is stated to having a mind. It is also referred to as "He".

1 Cor. 2:11, "For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man, which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God."

Here is mentioned both the spirit of man, our spirit, and the spirit of God. They are clearly two different entities.

Acts 2:4, "And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance."

It says THE Spirit, not their spirits.

However, make no mistake. There is only ONE God. He exists in three persons mentioned through the entirity of the holy scriptures. A good analagy I've heard used is Time. Time is made up of past, present and future but there are not three times, only one.



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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

October 26th, 2004, 6:48 am #24

Dustin,

Welcome back! LOL, too, except that I don’t know where to begin. The discussion of “the Spirit of the Lord” can go on endlessly.

To start with, if a divine being or something spiritual in nature resides in the flesh, why would you think of the “heart” or the “temple” in the literal sense? What do you think of Job 27:3—“All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils In regard to the “indwelling,” how do you account for the following residences “in the flesh”?
  • God dwells in the believer, His temple (2 Cor. 6:16; I John 4:12,13,15)
  • God’s holy spirit dwells in the believer (I John 4:12; Rom. 8:9,11; I Cor. 3:16; II Tim. 1:14)
  • Christ dwells in the heart of the believer (Eph. 3:17)
  • The spirit of Christ dwells in the believer (Rom. 8:9)
  • The truth dwells in the believer (2 John 1:2)
  • The spirit is truth (I John 5:6)—and the truth dwells in the believer (2 John 1:2)
  • The spirit of truth dwells in the believer (John 14:17)
  • The word of Christ dwells in the believer richly (Col. 3:16)
You quoted several passages from the book of John. That’s good. We all need to study what John says about the Spirit of truth, the Comforter. And more importantly, we need to study chapters 14-17 in context. So, I would like to ask you a favor so that we can discuss this portion of the Holy Scripture more thoroughly, perhaps, next time. One important question to consider is this—is the Comforter, the Spirit of truth, referring to Jesus Christ himself in his divine nature?

What does Jesus the truth (John 14:6) and the Spirit of truth (John 16:13) have in common as expressed in the following passages: (John 14:17-18; 16:16 and 22)? In I John 5:6, we read—“… it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
  • <font color=blue>John 14: [6] Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    John 16: [13] Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

    John 14: [17] Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. [18] I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

    John 16: [16] A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

    John 16: [22] And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.</font>
Finally, in this discussion, I would like to respond to your references to the “person” [and more specifically the “gender”] of the Lord’s Spirit and the capitalization of the “Holy Spirit” or the “Holy Ghost.” There’s much to be said about the designation of gender [masculine or feminine] to a neuter form in the original NT Greek—perhaps, we can discuss that sometime later on. Meanwhile, do you realize that in comparison, there are MORE references to the word “it” or “which” or “whereby” than to the word “he” or “who” or “whom” or “by whom” in regard to the “holy Spirit OF the Lord”?

What is the “gender” of the holy Spirit of God? Let us examine the usage of the word “who” or “whom” versus “which” in the following passages from the KJV—these words [WHO, WHOM, WHICH] are capitalized in the following verses only for emphasis:
  • <font color=blue>John 14:26—“But the Comforter, WHICH is the Holy Ghost, WHOM the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”

    Acts 5:32—“And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, WHOM God hath given to them that obey him.”

    John 7:39—“(But this spake he of the Spirit, WHICH they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)”

    Romans 5:5—“And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost WHICH is given unto us.”

    I Corinthians 2:12—“Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit WHICH is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.”

    I Corinthians 6:19—“What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost WHICH is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?”

    II Corinthians 11:4—“For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, WHICH ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.”

    Ephesians 1:13—“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, [14] WHICH is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.”

    Ephesians 6:17—“And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, WHICH is the word of God”

    II Timothy 1:14—“That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost WHICH dwelleth in us.”

    I John 3:24—“And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit WHICH he hath given us.”

    Ephesians 4:30—“And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, WHEREBY ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.”
    </font>
Let me take a break. Till next time.

Donnie
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John Waddey
John Waddey

February 7th, 2005, 8:28 am #25

NEW posts will be on the last page, page 4 for now.


Source: Bible Infonet/Firm Foundation
___________________________________________

Q&A: Who is dividing the church, and why do some leave the faith?
Joseph D. Meador

The church is deluged with denominational attitudes. Sectarian teaching has found its way into many pulpits and into the classrooms in many of our schools and universities.

John gives us an apostolic view of the causes of such apostasy. "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us" (1 John 2:19). Guy N. Woods has aptly portrayed:

They became apostates from the fold by going out. They were not 'of' the disciples, i.e., they did not possess the same spirit of obedience characteristic of the disciples, for if 'they had they would have continued with' the disciples. In apostatizing from the faith, they were 'made manifest' (shown to be not of the disciples).

Others, like those of this text, adopt false and heretical doctrines, forsake the church, and make shipwreck concerning the faith (1 Tim. 1:19).

The Bible presents varied reasons for the infection and spread of the disease of apostasy. Why do some leave the faith?

Deception is one reason for division. Paul noted that false teachers of Corinth posed as pious and informed brethren, yet because of their lack of true Bible knowledge, were void of spirituality (1 Tim. 1:19-20; 6:4; 2 Cor. 11:14-15).

He further says that such impostors feigned Christian maturity:
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel, for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore, it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness, whose end shall be according to their works (2 Cor. 11:14-15).
The Bible points out that many will be deceived into believing doctrinal error because they choose to follow personalities rather than the teaching of Christ (2 Tim. 4:1 ff; Matt.7:21-23).). During the premillennial heresy of the '20s end '30s, many were deceived by "that sweet- spirited preacher," R.H. Boll. In the mid-'30s, K.C. Moser advocated "unmerited grace" which placed more emphasis upon the "personal" Jesus than upon his doctrine. Obedience was minimized. Many followed Moser because he showed an irenic spirit, however contrived that spirit might have been. Some remember the "kind and meek" attitude which was displayed by the leader of the modern "Unity in Diversity" movement, W. Carl Ketcherside, though at times he exhibited a vicious spirit.

There are convincing personalities in this generation who are using the same strategy to draw away many disciples into accepting their favorite theories of grace only, and change of the unchangeable, and mutating the immutable. (The essential elements of the church, which is the body of Jesus, cannot be altered without destroying it. Instead of being the bride of Christ it becomes a harlot.)

The desire for pre-eminence is a driving force among some "professing" Christians who are bent on a course of control. Some have ventured so far in their quest for power that they encourage congregational rebellion in an attempt to "change" and "reform."

The apostle John recounted to Gaius the sad state to which Diotrephes had fallen in loving preeminence (3 John 9). Diotrephes wanted to be the petted and pampered. He refused to receive the apostle John as a brother in Christ. No doubt, Diotrephes thought he had risen to new heights of spirituality.

When the goal is control, the end always justifies the means. Such a perverted spirit would rather rip apart the body of Christ rather than mend; divide rather than graft; and, split apart rather than seam.

Some in the church despise doctrine and seek to amend the will of God to make it mold and conform to their notion of "progressive" Christianity. The Bible says we should attend to sound doctrine, continue in it, and hold steadfastly to it (1 Tim. 4:6; 1 Tim. 4:16; 2 Cor. 2:17; Titus 2:7, 12; 2 Tim. 1:13; Titus 1:9; 2:1).

Truth does not divide. It is incapable of division. When the hammer of error falls on the wedge of discord, it recoils against the seasoned stone of faith, but fragments the unstable sandstone of human ambition. Error and weakness are the cause of division.

We cannot walk in fellowship with those who have gone out from us, even though they were once of us (1 John 1:7; 2:19).

(Joseph D. Meador is the director of the Southwest School of Bible Studies, an excellent institution for the training of men who aspire to preach the Word. He may be contacted by calling [512] 282-2438.)
<font size=3>EXPLAIN GENERIC AND SPECIFIC AUTHORITY</font>


<font color=blue>Bro. Waddey:

Could you please enlighten me on the term "generic Bible authority?" I have heard that term used before and I am not sure that I have a full understanding of what it means! Martin</font>


<font color=blue>Dear Bro. Martin: </font>

The word generic derives from our word general. It is the opposite of specific. Thus, generic authority is general authority without specific details being given.

For example: Christ said, "Go preach the gospel" (Mk. 16:15). No instructions are given about how we are to go. So we conclude we are authorized to go by car or bus, plane or train, by foot or bicycle ... on the basis of this generic authority. But when Christ said preach "the gospel," that specifies what we are to preach. I have specific authority to preach the gospel of Christ and that excludes the doctrines and commandments of men, human philosophy, psychology, etc.

A specific command excludes all others. For example, Christ said "Go make disciples...baptizing them" (Matt. 28:19). The word baptize is a verb with specific meaning. It means to immerse. Thus this specific command necessarily excludes sprinkling, pouring, or any other type of actions.

The command to "work that which is good to all men" (Gal. 6:10) is generic or general. It sets forth an obligation without specifying any particular means for fulfilling it. Thus we are free to use many methods in ministering to our neighbors and yet do so by the generic authority Christ has given us.

These concepts are especially important when we come to the question of praising God. The Scripture says "speaking to one another in psalms, hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord" (Eph. 5:19). Since there are three possible ways to make music: vocal music, instrumental music and a combination of the two kinds, when God specified one of them, it excludes the others. To sing is very specific, thus we are limited to that way of expressing our praise.

These points will be useful to you a thousand times as you study and seek a correct application of the words of the Savior. I hope this brief study has been helpful.

_____________________________________
John Waddey, Editor
Christianity: Then and Now

E-Mail: [url=mailto:johnwaddey@aol.com]johnwaddey@aol.com[/url]
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John Rebman
John Rebman

February 7th, 2005, 7:25 pm #26

<font size=4>CAN WE RECEIVE MIRACULOUS GIFTS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT TODAY? </font>


<font color=indigo>Dear Allen:

The twelve apostles of Christ were baptized in the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost following the ascension of Christ. That brought to their remembrance the message of Christ (John 14:26) and it enabled them to speak that message in languages they had not previously known (Acts 2:4-11). Additionally it gave them the power to perform certain miraculous signs that confirmed their message as being from God (Mk. 16:20). Although everyone who confessed Christ, repented and was baptized received the gift of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:38) that did not provide them those miraculous powers that the apostles enjoyed.

The people of Samaria heard and accepted the preaching of Philip. They were baptized (Acts 8:12), but it was necessary for an apostle to come and lay hands on them before they could receive the supernatural powers (Acts 8:15-17). That they did not lay hands on every one is seen in the case of Simon the Sorcerer who, although baptized, did not receive the laying on of hands (Acts 8:18-19). The apostles had laid their hands on Philip along with the other deacons at the time of their appointment (Acts 6:1-6). That enabled Philip to preach with the knowledge the Spirit provided and to confirm his message with signs, but he cold not pass this gift along to those whom he converted. That is why Peter and John, apostles, had to journey to Samaria to lay their hands on newly baptized converts to give them the miraculous gifts of the Spirit.

As to the cessation of the supernatural gifts: The apostles received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which empowered them with the ability to do miraculous deeds. They laid their hands on selected disciples to empower them. The second generation, those upon whom hands were laid, could not pass the gift along; they had to call upon an apostle to do that. Thus when the last of the twelve apostles died, there was no one left who could lay hands on another to impart the Spirit's gifts.

When the last disciples died, upon whom the hands of an apostle had been laid, the supernatural gifts ceased to be exhibited among Christians.
</font>

_____________________________________
John Waddey, Editor
Christianity: Then and Now

E-Mail: [url=mailto:johnwaddey@aol.com]johnwaddey@aol.com[/url]
True, we do not receive the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit today.
But, I do not agree with you, that the apostles received the ability "to cast out unclean spirits, heal all manners of sickness and all manners of disease on the day of Pentecost. They were given this "power" when Jesus sent them out "two by two" some three years before, noting Matthew 10.

Pentecost, according to Peter, was prophesied by Joel. Peter explains what happened. The question: "what does this mean," asked in verse 12 by inquiring minds, is answered in verse 33. Peter does not say: "Wow, what a blessing, we have just been baptized by the Holy Spirit." No, Peter is giving the funeral service for temple centered, national Israel, for the consummating sin of killing the prophets and the Son of God; note the words of Jesus in Matthew 21:33-45: Please pay particular attention to verse 45.

The inspired preacher said: "You men of Israel, delivered by determinate counsel (Jews) and foreknowledge of God, you have taken, and by wicked hands (Romans) have crucified and slain Jesus of Nazareth."

"What shall we do?" cried those "three thousand souls, pricked in their hearts" by Peter's inspired words. "Repent and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Peter also exhorted: "Save yourselves from this crooked generation."
This is the same "generation," that Jesus refers to in Matthew 23:23: "You serpents, you generation of vipers, how can you escape the damnation of hell?" Peter's answer is given to all men, of all nations, for all generations in Acts 2:38 how to "escape the damnation of hell."

To say that the twelve men at Pentecost "received the power of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost" to make them "super men" is to nullify the words of Jesus in Matthew 10 and John 20:21-23. "The Jews require a sign" (1 Cor. 1:22). Here was a "sign" that begged the question: "What does this mean?"
Why, we hear these Galilaens speaking in our own language where we were born." Nothing is asked by the throng about the "working of miracles." I believe we need to look at Pentecost through the eyes of a Jew being there, not as a Gentile looking back on that day. Keep in mind, the Jew believed that when God spoke, He would speak to them in Hebrew. Hear again the words of Luke: "We do hear them speak in our own tongues (Acts 1:8-11) the wonderful works of God."
Interesting subject, thank you for allowing me to respond.

John Rebman
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

February 8th, 2005, 7:26 am #27

<font size=3>EXPLAIN GENERIC AND SPECIFIC AUTHORITY</font>


<font color=blue>Bro. Waddey:

Could you please enlighten me on the term "generic Bible authority?" I have heard that term used before and I am not sure that I have a full understanding of what it means! Martin</font>


<font color=blue>Dear Bro. Martin: </font>

The word generic derives from our word general. It is the opposite of specific. Thus, generic authority is general authority without specific details being given.

For example: Christ said, "Go preach the gospel" (Mk. 16:15). No instructions are given about how we are to go. So we conclude we are authorized to go by car or bus, plane or train, by foot or bicycle ... on the basis of this generic authority. But when Christ said preach "the gospel," that specifies what we are to preach. I have specific authority to preach the gospel of Christ and that excludes the doctrines and commandments of men, human philosophy, psychology, etc.

A specific command excludes all others. For example, Christ said "Go make disciples...baptizing them" (Matt. 28:19). The word baptize is a verb with specific meaning. It means to immerse. Thus this specific command necessarily excludes sprinkling, pouring, or any other type of actions.

The command to "work that which is good to all men" (Gal. 6:10) is generic or general. It sets forth an obligation without specifying any particular means for fulfilling it. Thus we are free to use many methods in ministering to our neighbors and yet do so by the generic authority Christ has given us.

These concepts are especially important when we come to the question of praising God. The Scripture says "speaking to one another in psalms, hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody with your heart to the Lord" (Eph. 5:19). Since there are three possible ways to make music: vocal music, instrumental music and a combination of the two kinds, when God specified one of them, it excludes the others. To sing is very specific, thus we are limited to that way of expressing our praise.

These points will be useful to you a thousand times as you study and seek a correct application of the words of the Savior. I hope this brief study has been helpful.

_____________________________________
John Waddey, Editor
Christianity: Then and Now

E-Mail: [url=mailto:johnwaddey@aol.com]johnwaddey@aol.com[/url]
<font size=3>
GENERIC AND SPECIFIC AUTHORITY
</font>


<font size=3 face=Times New Roman>We can know God has prohibited a thing if he tells us in his word, "Thou shalt not do this." Thus we are told, thou shalt not steal, kill, commit adultery, etc. We can know a thing is forbidden if its opposite is required of us. If I am to love my neighbor as myself, then for me to despise my neighbor is automatically wrong. If a thing is condemned in some Bible example I can know it is wrong, even if I have no direct prohibition. For example, when David ordered Uriah put in a precarious position in the battle that he might die. Although there is no specific prohibition that spells out such conduct, the way God responded shows us his displeasure.

When God specifically tells us what he wants us to do, all other alternatives are thereby prohibited. For example when he said, "Go make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them..." (Matt. 28:19), that excludes making disciples by having them sign a contract or by having them make a financial commitment. The exclusive and only way to make disciples is to baptize them. Likewise when he said "baptize" them, that verb is very specific, it means immerse. Hence by authorizing immersion, he excluded sprinkling, pouring, etc.

God can and does give us general or generic commands that order us to do something without providing the details. When he does so we are left to our own discretion as to how we will implement that command. He said "Go make disciples" but he did not specify any mode of travel. Hence the command authorizes us to use any honest and honorable mode of travel in fulfilling that command. The things necessary to fulfilling a command we call expediencies. For example if we are to baptize we will need suitable clothing, and a suitable place. Thus a church is authorized to provide a baptistery, clothing and towels for baptisms.

We are commanded to sing and make melody with our hearts (Eph. 5:19). The command to sing is specific. Thus it excludes playing instruments. However, to sing together we need to have some way to see the words of the hymn. Hence the command authorizes us to provide a book for singing, a pitch pipe for the song leader and lights for the assembly.

All that we do must be by Christ's authority (Matt. 28:18, 20). That authority may be expressed in a specific command or in one that is generic. Rather than say, "He does not forbid this," the faithful disciple asks, "What did Christ tell us to do?" This distinguishes the faithful Christian from the worldly disciple who wants a religion that pleases him. This has been a marked distinction between churches of Christ and our religious neighbors. </font>

_____________________________________
John Waddey, Editor
Christianity: Then and Now

E-Mail: [url=mailto:johnwaddey@aol.com]johnwaddey@aol.com[/url]
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David Hardin
David Hardin

February 8th, 2005, 8:31 pm #28

“When God specifically tells us what he wants us to do, all other alternatives are thereby prohibited.”

There is no more specific commandments than those that lay out the worship at the temple. It is spelled out in great detail. Who, How, When, Where and more.

Jesus lived under the Old Testament law. Nothing else was authorized. If “When God specifically tells us what he wants us to do, all other alternatives are thereby prohibited.” Then did Jesus sin by taking part in the Synagogue worship?

Luke 4:20-22 (King James Version)
15And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.
16And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
17And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
22And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son?

David Hardin
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

February 9th, 2005, 12:35 am #29

First, it is important to grasp that God DID NOT connect the sacrificial system to the people's "worship." This was a NATIONAL ritual common to all of the NATIONS whom Israel imitated by God's permissive will when they rejected His Word.

The word SABBATH simple means REST and it was not given as a day of WORSHIP in the sense of the Law of Moses. The Israelites at Mount Sinai rose up in musical idolatry and thereby POLLUTED God's Sabbath BEFORE the Law of Moses replaced The Book of the Covenant. POLLUTED is a musical word:
  • <font color=blue>Chalal (h2490) to wound, to dissolve... take inheritance, pipe, player on instruments, pollute, (cast as) profane (self), prostitute, slay (slain), sorrow, stain, wound. </font>
Using the same word, Lucifer was CAST OUT of heaven.

Rest means rest and does not speak of ceremonial worship. The REST was given on the Sabbath because the Babylonians and others truly WORSHIPPED In the Sabbath: the god's AGENTS rested while the people LABORED in food, drink, singing, musical instruments and prostitutes. God's REST reversed this: by outlawing travel God quarantined the people from the pagan WORSHIP SERVICES.

The First and Seventh days were to hold a HOLY CONVOCATION. This was not worship in our terms but means to READ or REHEARSE whatever they had to read or whatever a teacher could recite orally. This is the meaning of Paul when he commanded TEACHING the inspired text.

The Synagogue existed as the Qahal or church in the wilderness. This assembly of the common people was only for receiving instructions. This is why Numbers 10:7 OUTLAWS the ALARM or TRIUMPH which means to "play loud instruments and 'make a joyful noise before the Lord'" which was the Warrior's Panic "music."

Therefore, the commanded and common sense need to TEACH God's Word existed throughout history even though it was more institutionalized during the Captivity. The SYNAGOGUE as obedience to God's original intention was carried out by the Hassidim who became the Pharisees. This was in total opposition to the Temple sacrificial system which had been "added because of transgression" that being the musical idolatry of a trinity.

The music during sacrifices was called NOISE and was intended to remove ALL but the CIVIL-RELIGIOUS institution which was quite idential to that of surrounding nations. IF they 'woshipped' it means that they FELL on their faces OUTSIDE the gates to the "church yard" where the noise and slaughter took place.

Synagoge simply means an "appointed time." Therefore, how could think that an assembled time and place to READ (only and not preach) the Word of God would be in any connected to the Law of Moses?
  • <font color=blue>And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was,
    • he went into the synagogue
      on the sabbath day,
    and stood up for to READ. Lu.4:16</font>
Here is how you Preach and this is what Paul commanded TIMOTHY as a form of "worship":
  • <font color=blue>For Moses of OLD TIME hath in every city them
    • that PREACH him,
      being READ
    in the synagogues every sabbath day. Ac.15:21 </font>
You will remember that Moses was in the wilderness. There are two documents called "songs." Moses RECITED the songs with the intention that they be LEARNED and taken back to the tribes. Miriam led the women OUT with singing, dancing and instruments. You remember that God slapped her with a dose of leprosy for claiming to be an INSPIRED prophet rather than a musical "prophesier."

The true FAST specificially OUTLAWED self-speak just as the Qahal or synagogue or church in the wildernes outlawed LOUD MUSIC. Pretty common sense, if you ask me, unless you INTEND to keep the Word from the people.
  • <font color=blue>If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him,
    • not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own
      pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: Isaiah 58:13
    </font>
There is a lot of evidence that TEACHING the Word of God was AUTHORIZED at any time and place. If the command is to TEACH (why else would God give it?), and God gives lots of SPECIFICS: walking, siting, lying, there is no need for a DIRECT COMMAND to set a TIME and PLACE which is the only meaning of SYNAGOGUE.

Jesus never said: I will build my church. He said, I will build my EKKLESIA. Both ekklesia and synagogue are Greek words for an ASSEMBLY to hear evidence and reach a conclusion. Therefore, the Synagogue was ALWAYS an assembly to hear God's Word READ or RECITED with "allegorizing sermons outlawed by the Rabbi." There was NO MUSIC in the synagogue and NO extraneous tasks other than TEACHING the children which existed at the time of Jesus. WHY would he make a point of telling the Jews that they TAUGHT under the Law of Moses but needed a NEW COMMAND after Pentecost?

Ekklesia means both the CHURCH HOUSE and the ASSEMBLY. When Paul used words like GATHERED or ASSEMBLE he used a form of the Greek SYNAGOGUE. Therefore, the SYNAGOGUE was always the only RITUAL imposed by God by which we worship Him by Paul's almost-unique word TO GIVE HEED.

In James,
  • <font color=blue>For if there come unto your assembly [SYNAGOGUE]a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; James 2:2 </font>
We are fatally flawed and are paying the price because we REPUDIATE the PURPOSE for Christ to allow us to SYNAGOGUE to "come learn of Me." This provided the DAY OF REST from "ceremonial legalism."

The Christian assembly continued to meet in existing synagogue houses until they were kicked out. If Jesus commands us to TEACH then we can teach standing up, sitting down, walking in the way, upon our bed or even--heaven help us-in "church." However, we CANNOT obey the direct command and approved examples of the Eternal God to TEACH so that people can HEAR and LEARN "that which is written" by ADDING a "vocal band" making vulgar sounds and looking too, too cute. Some people rejecting the Commands and Examples idea taught by the Bible and all of church history before OUR TIME, charge to tell people that Jesus VIOLATED the Law of Moses and that gives us authority to VIOLATE commands because we are GRACE-CENTERED. Their GRACE is a brown-eyed Greek prostitute meaning CHARISMATIC.

Ken
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

February 9th, 2005, 8:58 am #30

“When God specifically tells us what he wants us to do, all other alternatives are thereby prohibited.”

There is no more specific commandments than those that lay out the worship at the temple. It is spelled out in great detail. Who, How, When, Where and more.

Jesus lived under the Old Testament law. Nothing else was authorized. If “When God specifically tells us what he wants us to do, all other alternatives are thereby prohibited.” Then did Jesus sin by taking part in the Synagogue worship?

Luke 4:20-22 (King James Version)
15And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified of all.
16And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
17And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
22And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph's son?

David Hardin
<font size=3 color=indigo face=Times New Roman>David,

I’m failing to understand your point in bringing up the Old Testament law or covenant and even in asking if Jesus sinned…. Since we know that Jesus our Savior lived a sinless, perfect life, perhaps, “Jesus … taking part in the Synagogue worship” is a bit misleading.

The passage you quoted begins with “he taught in their synagogues … he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day … to read.” If he took part in worship, whom did he worship? Or, did he take the opportunity to teach in the synagogue?

Still, how do we relate your comments to distinguishing the difference between generic and specific authority? Please explain.

Thanks!

Donnie</font>
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