Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

January 6th, 2014, 6:24 pm #31

Donnie, we most certainly are talking about the Trinity and the Holy Spirit. Your lead post in this thread begins by listing at least eight examples using the preposition "OF" with the Holy Spirit. One principal (and maybe the underlying) purpose of this thread is to debunk any beliefs that the Holy Spirit is part of the Trinity, because, in your mind, "the Spirit of God/Christ/Lord" (etc.) ONLY means possession and nothing else.

I'm here to tell readers that "OF" can have other interpretations. You have your own personal interpretation; let other people have theirs. There is nothing wrong with ANY of those interpretations.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Yes, we are talking about the Trinity, but you missed the specific reference I made to: "We're not discussing 'Trinity' as a word not found in the Bible."

Actually, you missed the "underlying" purpose of this thread, which is to discuss another preposition -- "IN" -- as in the expression "God IN Christ." Did you read the part where I said: [/color]
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]OK, we are not discussing the troublesome preposition "OF" at this time -- it is being presented here only for your "recollection" as we are about to bring up another preposition that is also troublesome to many biblical scholars and Trinitarian followers. [/color]
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]But it's OK that we are discussing the preposition "OF" -- I firmly believe that the 70+ passages with that expression have references to "the spirit" [an improper noun], modified by the word "holy" [an adjective] as something "BELONGING TO." It is similar to other expressions such as "the bountiful love of God" or "the mind of the Lord" (I Cor. 2:16) or "the mind of Christ" (I Cor. 2:16).

It makes no sense whatsoever to segregate "the mind" (or "the holy spirit") of the Lord Jesus Christ and allow man's perception to GENERATE A SEPARATE BEING from the Lord as the Catholic Trinity espouses.

Is there really anything new about YOUR CONSTANT ASSERTION that "OF" can have other interpretations? Nothing. There are/have been various contradictory interpretations throughout time of many doctrinal issues, NEEDLESS TO SAY.

Let's not forget that we are yet to discuss the preposition "IN."[/color]
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

January 6th, 2014, 6:42 pm #32

Jesus is no longer a physical person, even though the Catholics perceive Him to be a physical "person" as part of their Catholic Trinity concept. Jesus is now back with God in heaven as one member of the biblical three-part grouping, AKA Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Matt. 28:19). No member of this biblical grouping is presently a physical "person."

We should make two distinctions regarding concepts about the Trinity:

(1) Catholic Trinity--Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three separate, physical "persons."

(2) Non-Catholic Trinity--Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three separate, heavenly beings who are NOT physical "persons."
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]You are trying too hard to disassociate yourself from other Catholic Trinity followers. The Catholic Trinity says: "THREE PERSONS" ... period!!! (But you're allowed to do your own three-person [physical or not] dissection of the Catholic Trinity. See if they agree with you.)

Bill's and the Catholic Trinity's "three-part grouping" system!!! The list in Matt. 28:19 does not prove that both Jesus Christ and the Trinity's "Holy Spirit" were sent by the Father to become PERSONS.[/color]
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Bill
Bill

January 6th, 2014, 6:48 pm #33

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Yes, we are talking about the Trinity, but you missed the specific reference I made to: "We're not discussing 'Trinity' as a word not found in the Bible."

Actually, you missed the "underlying" purpose of this thread, which is to discuss another preposition -- "IN" -- as in the expression "God IN Christ." Did you read the part where I said: [/color]
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]OK, we are not discussing the troublesome preposition "OF" at this time -- it is being presented here only for your "recollection" as we are about to bring up another preposition that is also troublesome to many biblical scholars and Trinitarian followers. [/color]
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]But it's OK that we are discussing the preposition "OF" -- I firmly believe that the 70+ passages with that expression have references to "the spirit" [an improper noun], modified by the word "holy" [an adjective] as something "BELONGING TO." It is similar to other expressions such as "the bountiful love of God" or "the mind of the Lord" (I Cor. 2:16) or "the mind of Christ" (I Cor. 2:16).

It makes no sense whatsoever to segregate "the mind" (or "the holy spirit") of the Lord Jesus Christ and allow man's perception to GENERATE A SEPARATE BEING from the Lord as the Catholic Trinity espouses.

Is there really anything new about YOUR CONSTANT ASSERTION that "OF" can have other interpretations? Nothing. There are/have been various contradictory interpretations throughout time of many doctrinal issues, NEEDLESS TO SAY.

Let's not forget that we are yet to discuss the preposition "IN."[/color]
You seem to be overly concerned with both prepositions "OF" and "IN," but "OF" concerns you more. As far as I'm concerned, I have no problems with either one.

It's fine if you "firmly believe" that "the Spirit of God" refers to the Spirit that belongs to God and is not a separate entity. Right on! Go for it! I certainly won't fault you for that belief. That's your prerogative. Likewise, I "firmly believe" that the Holy Spirit IS a separate entity who also belongs to God at the same time. That's my prerogative.
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Bill
Bill

January 6th, 2014, 7:30 pm #34

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]You are trying too hard to disassociate yourself from other Catholic Trinity followers. The Catholic Trinity says: "THREE PERSONS" ... period!!! (But you're allowed to do your own three-person [physical or not] dissection of the Catholic Trinity. See if they agree with you.)

Bill's and the Catholic Trinity's "three-part grouping" system!!! The list in Matt. 28:19 does not prove that both Jesus Christ and the Trinity's "Holy Spirit" were sent by the Father to become PERSONS.[/color]
It matters not to me if the Catholics agree with my concept of the "Trinity" or not. They have their version of the Trinity; I have mine.

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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

January 6th, 2014, 8:37 pm #35

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]You may refer to YOUR concept of the Trinity differently, but the reality is that "your" concept is NO DIFFERENT -- THREE PERSONS (#1, #2, #3) IN ONE GOD -- and that's your belief also.

It is "Catholic" because of its pagan origin, approved and authorized by "the bishops" of the eventual Roman Catholic Church and the Roman Emperor. (Don't be alarmed that I held that same view for a long, long time until I thoroughly searched and independently studied the Scripture and found no such creed in the Bible.)

or

The image may be defective in that Person No. 3 of the Trinity is not represented by a PERSON'S image.[/color]

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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

January 6th, 2014, 9:57 pm #36

There is only one God, there is only one Christ, and there is only one Holy Spirit. The three exist separately yet are united as one ("I and my Father are one"--John 10:30 KJV). Just as God sent His Son Jesus into the world, so God sends His Holy Spirit into the world.

"Box OF candy"--this describes the box that contains candy. There is no possession or ownership. Box and candy exist as separate items. This is one way to use "OF."

"Holy Spirit OF God"--the Holy Spirit belongs to God, yet they also exist as separate beings. This is another way to use "OF."
Spirit means BREATH: not candy.

The Breath OF Christ means that Christ CONTAINED the breath.

The box AND candy can be separated. If you take the candy OUT of the box it is no longer "a box OF CANDY."

If you take the BREATH out of CHRIST it is just a mixture of gases and it mixes and ceases to exist.

Spirit means MIND: if you take the MIND out of Christ then Christ is "out of His Mind." His mind no longer exists and does not float like a butterfly.

When God BREATHS the breath vibrates the eardrums of Jesus of Nazareth. The Breath then disperses into the four winds and has no personal existence.



<font face="arial" size="4">So WE see that BREATH comes out of a MOUTH.
</font>
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

January 7th, 2014, 1:55 am #37

You seem to be overly concerned with both prepositions "OF" and "IN," but "OF" concerns you more. As far as I'm concerned, I have no problems with either one.

It's fine if you "firmly believe" that "the Spirit of God" refers to the Spirit that belongs to God and is not a separate entity. Right on! Go for it! I certainly won't fault you for that belief. That's your prerogative. Likewise, I "firmly believe" that the Holy Spirit IS a separate entity who also belongs to God at the same time. That's my prerogative.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Your second paragraph, merely a statement of a premise, is not an argument. A devout Roman Catholic has the right to assert: "I believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary, 'the Mother of God.'"

In your first paragraph, you [of all people, an avid grammarian] are undermining the significance of the "little" prepositions "in" and "of." (I'm reminded of a children's song: "Be careful little mouth what you say ... be careful little eyes what you see ... be careful little ears what you hear.")[/color]

[color=#000000" size="4" face="times]There is a colossal difference between "OF" and "IS" in these expressions:

(1) "The holy Spirit OF God" (Ephesians 4:30)
------------------ VERSUS --------------------
(2) "The Holy Spirit IS God" (Man-made Trinity)

There is a colossal difference between "IN" and "IS" in these expressions:

(1) "God IN Christ Jesus" (II Cor. 12:19; Phil. 3:14; I Thess. 5:18)
------------------ VERSUS --------------------
(2) "God IS Christ Jesus" (Man's view of the "divinity" of Christ) [/color]
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

January 7th, 2014, 2:25 am #38

I must not be a neo-Trinitarian, for I do not think the Holy Spirit is "another mediator." Only Christ is our mediator. The Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit, whether a part of God or a separate entity. Both perceptions work well.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Both expressions:

(1) "the holy Spirit OF God" [Eph. 4:30] is "a part of God"
----------------- and ----------------------
(2) The "Holy Spirit" is "a separate entity"

... ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. Like it or not, Bill, you cannot have it BOTH WAYS. (The big nose of Durante is not detached from its owner and is NOT a separate entity or person apart from Durante.)

The "Holy Spirit" belonging to God is scriptural (Eph. 4:30).

The "Holy Spirit" as the man-designated THIRD PERSON is Trinitarian.[/color]
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Bill
Bill

January 7th, 2014, 2:41 am #39

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Your second paragraph, merely a statement of a premise, is not an argument. A devout Roman Catholic has the right to assert: "I believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary, 'the Mother of God.'"

In your first paragraph, you [of all people, an avid grammarian] are undermining the significance of the "little" prepositions "in" and "of." (I'm reminded of a children's song: "Be careful little mouth what you say ... be careful little eyes what you see ... be careful little ears what you hear.")[/color]

[color=#000000" size="4" face="times]There is a colossal difference between "OF" and "IS" in these expressions:

(1) "The holy Spirit OF God" (Ephesians 4:30)
------------------ VERSUS --------------------
(2) "The Holy Spirit IS God" (Man-made Trinity)

There is a colossal difference between "IN" and "IS" in these expressions:

(1) "God IN Christ Jesus" (II Cor. 12:19; Phil. 3:14; I Thess. 5:18)
------------------ VERSUS --------------------
(2) "God IS Christ Jesus" (Man's view of the "divinity" of Christ) [/color]
I gather you intend to spend the rest of your life using a spiritual microscope to dissect the Trinity and the Holy Spirit into heaven's version of "subatomic particles." You must have lots of time on your hands.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

January 7th, 2014, 2:51 am #40

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Your second paragraph, merely a statement of a premise, is not an argument. A devout Roman Catholic has the right to assert: "I believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary, 'the Mother of God.'"

In your first paragraph, you [of all people, an avid grammarian] are undermining the significance of the "little" prepositions "in" and "of." (I'm reminded of a children's song: "Be careful little mouth what you say ... be careful little eyes what you see ... be careful little ears what you hear.")[/color]

[color=#000000" size="4" face="times]There is a colossal difference between "OF" and "IS" in these expressions:

(1) "The holy Spirit OF God" (Ephesians 4:30)
------------------ VERSUS --------------------
(2) "The Holy Spirit IS God" (Man-made Trinity)

There is a colossal difference between "IN" and "IS" in these expressions:

(1) "God IN Christ Jesus" (II Cor. 12:19; Phil. 3:14; I Thess. 5:18)
------------------ VERSUS --------------------
(2) "God IS Christ Jesus" (Man's view of the "divinity" of Christ) [/color]
Notice that God can put a LYING SPIRIT into a person and that person SPEAKS lies. Here are some examples:

1Kings 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth,
<font color="#FFFFFF">.....
and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.
.....And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
1Kings 22:23 Now therefore, behold,
.....the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets,
.....and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
2Chronicles 18:21 And he said, I will go out, and
.....be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.
..... And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.
2Chronicles 18:22 Now therefore, behold, the LORD
.....hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets,
.....and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.
2Chronicles 36:22 Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD spoken by the mouth of Jeremiah might be accomplished, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia,
..... that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and put it also in writing, saying,

Nehemiah 9:20 Thou gavest also thy good spirit to instruct them, and withheldest not thy manna from their mouth, and gavest them water for their thirst.
Job 7:11 Therefore I will not refrain my mouth;
.....I will speak in the anguish of my spirit;
..... I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.
Job 15:13 That thou turnest thy spirit against God,
.....and lettest such words go out of thy mouth?
Isaiah 34:16 Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate:
.....for my mouth it hath commanded,
.....and his spirit it hath gathered them.
Isaiah 59:21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD;
.....My spirit that is upon thee,
.....and my words which I have put in thy mouth,
.....shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed,
.....nor out of the mouth of thy seeds seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.
2Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed,
.....whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
.....Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 2 Thess. 2:9
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish;
.....because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2 Thess. 2:10
And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion (tramps, erratic teachers, roving stars),
..... that they should believe a lie: 2 Thess. 2:11
</font>
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