Prepositions (OF, IN) That Trouble Biblical Scholars and Trinitarians

Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

January 17th, 2014, 6:35 am #131

If you really want a Trinitarian's point of view, you should ask a true Trinitarian about the "us" in those passages. A true Trinitarian believes that the Trinity is comprised of three persons, personalities, or personae, terms that suggest physical beings. To me, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are neither persons, nor personalities, nor personae, nor anything remotely suggesting physical beings. They are three heavenly beings. Thus, I am not a true Trinitarian and cannot help you with your quest.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Bill,

(1) I don't think a "true Trinitarian" believes that the Trinity is comprised of three physical persons or beings; rather, of "THREE PERSONS." [Period.] Would you really expect a Trinitarian to say that "God the Father" is a physical person or being? (You're putting words in the Trinity follower's mouth.)

(2) During all our discussion about the Trinity, you've given the impression that "person" and "being" are synonymous terms in reference to any of the "Trinity members." Is this no longer the case?

(3) So, now, are you not going to sing anymore: "Holy, Holy, Holy! ... God in Three Persons, Blessed Trinity"?

(4) I don't think "personae" is in the [Catholic] Trinity's vocabulary -- that term would not be favorable to the concept of "God in Three Persons" [real heavenly or physical person]. But regardless...

(5) ... As a non-true Trinitarian, please answer the same question I posed earlier:[/color]
[color=#000000" size="4" face="times]Do you believe that the "us" in those verses also includes:

(1) Only the Lord Jesus Christ who was born only 2 millenniums ago?
------------------ or ------------------
(2) Only the Spirit of God which moved upon the face of the waters (Gen. 1:2)?
------------------ or ------------------
(3) Both "the Lord Jesus Christ" and "the Spirit of God"?[/color]
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

January 17th, 2014, 5:01 pm #132

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]We've been discussing the significance of the preposition "OF" in what the Scripture teaches:[/color]
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the Lord (26 references in O.T.; Luke 4:18; Acts 5:9; 8:39; II Cor. 3:17,18)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF God (14 references in O.T.; 12 references in N.T.)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the living God (II Cor. 3:3)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF Christ (Rom. 8:9; I Peter 1:11)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF Jesus Christ (Phil. 1:19)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF His Son (Gal. 4:6)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the holy Spirit OF God (Eph. 4:30)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the Father (Matt. 10:20)
    </li>
  • ... and many other similar passages as the ones listed above. </li>
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Since there is only ONE Spirit (I Cor. 12:13; Eph. 2:18; Eph. 4:4), it would be erroneous for man to make God formulate or generate a separate BEING apart from "the spirit OF the Lord" that the passages present above. Man does this (generate a Spirit Being) to validate the Trinity Creed that espouses God No. 3 -- "the Holy Spirit."[/color]

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]OK, we are not discussing the troublesome preposition "OF" at this time -- it is being presented here only for your "recollection" as we are about to bring up another preposition that is also troublesome to many biblical scholars and Trinitarian followers.

And what is that other preposition? We're finding out now.

Scripture's message ("Mystery of His Will," November 29 2013, 4:06 PM) really caught my attention. It was published in the extensively-discussed, controversial thread, "Biblical Proof That Jesus Lived in Heaven Before Coming to Earth."[/color]
[color=#000000" size="4" face="times]God has chosen in these last times to unveil the mystery (secret) of His Will (Ephesians 1:7-11). Part of that mystery was the plan for God's Word to descend to become human....

This mystery include the revelation of the existence of Christ identified with Jesus, the redemption through His blood, as the Suffering Savior ... God purposed this from the beginning, and in the New Covenant He has unveiled the Christ. Christ sums up all things in the heavens and things on the earth. These events were predestined according to His purpose, who works all things according the purpose of His Will (Word). ... The revelation of Christ was the unveiling to the temple, the understanding that God was in Christ.[/color]
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]It is clear from passages above and in John 1:1,14:

-- That the holy Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ is not another being.
-- That it was "the Word" in the beginning (v. 1) that was made flesh (v.14).
-- That it was "Jesus" in the beginning that became Jesus in v. 14 is fallacious.
-- That the Catholic Trinity's perceived Person No. 3 is not Scripture-based.

Another troubling preposition is "IN" (often substituted or replaced with the verb "IS").

Hopefully, Catholic Trinity followers do not make another mistake due to misuse of prepositions, e.g.:

-- Error: That God was pre-existing Jesus who became Jesus 2000 years ago.
-- Error: That the Word in the beginning was conclusively the pre-existing Jesus.
-- Error: That the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ is "another" Spirit.
-- Error: That there is a REAL "Holy Spirit" -- the Trinity's 3rd PERSON.
-- Error: That there is no distinction between: (1) origination and (2) destination ...
-- ... meaning that when A became (transformed, changed to) B, A was B all along.[/color]

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]And now ... Scripture's remark above: "The revelation of Christ ... the understanding that God was in Christ."

I'm presenting the following passages with the preposition "IN" used in expressions involving God and Christ:[/color]
  • [color=#FF0000" size="4" face="times]Again, think ye that we excuse ourselves unto you? we speak before God in Christ: but we do all things, dearly beloved, for your edifying. (II Cor. 12:19)

    [/color]</li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="4" face="times]And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. (Gal. 3:17)

    [/color]</li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="4" face="times]For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. (Gal. 3:26)

    [/color]</li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="4" face="times]For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. (Phil. 3:3)

    [/color]</li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="4" face="times]I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. (Phil. 3:14)

    [/color]</li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="4" face="times]In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you. (I Thess. 5:18)

    [/color]</li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="4" face="times]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (I Thess. 4:14)

    [/color]</li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="4" face="times]Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: (I Cor.1:2)

    [/color]</li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="4" face="times]But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: (I Cor. 1:30)

    [/color]</li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="4" face="times][14] Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place. [17] For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ. (II Cor. 2)

    [/color]</li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="4" face="times][17] Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. [19] To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. [20] Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. (II Cor. 5)[/color]</li>
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]What does "God IN Christ" mean? Does "God IN Christ" mean the same as "Jesus Christ IS God"?[/color]
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]We haven't yet dealt much with the main objective of this thread, i.e., to discuss the preposition "IN" that's troublesome to many biblical scholars and Trinity adherents, perhaps unbeknownst to them. We haven't forgotten; we will discuss that more extensively later on. But for now....

Several messages (questions and answers) have been posted above concerning the word "us" in these passages: Gen. 1:26, Genesis 3:22, Genesis 11:7, and Isaiah 6:8.

For example: "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:" (Gen. 1:26). This is the Trinitarian's favorite passage in an attempt to support the "belief" (or theory, idea, notion or perception) that "the Trinity" is comprised of more than one person or being.

Before discussing further, let's pose this question that I have already asked earlier [with a minor revision]. Some may consider it a "gotcha" question and, therefore, refuse to answer; but we're here to study as serious Bible students. Here it is:[/color]
[color=#000000" size="4" face="times]Do you believe that the "us" in those verses [in addition to "God the Father"] also includes:

(1) Only the Lord Jesus Christ who was born only 2 millenniums ago?
------------------ or ------------------
(2) Only the Spirit of God which moved upon the face of the waters (Gen. 1:2)?
------------------ or ------------------
(3) Both "the Lord Jesus Christ" and "the Spirit of God"?
------------------ or ------------------
(4) NONE of the above [only "God the Father"]?
------------------ or ------------------
(5) What/When God SAID/SPOKE?[/color]
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Bill
Bill

January 17th, 2014, 6:01 pm #133

Let's not turn this into a multiple-choice question, for that type of question is typically worded as, "Choose the single best answer." Let's just state what the obvious answer is, without mentioning the Trinity or Trinitarians as such. The "us" in those verses include ALL of the following:

(1) God the Father

(2) the Word, Who was with God in the beginning, Who would leave heaven to be transformed into a human being named Jesus in the flesh while on earth, and Who would return to heaven whence He came. So for all practical purposes, the Word and Jesus were, are, and always will be the SAME BEING.

(3) the Holy Spirit
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Servant
Servant

January 17th, 2014, 7:06 pm #134

This thread can continue as long as you keep looking for loopholes around the massive Scriptures we have posted with Jesus Agreeing that

'There one God.'
Jesus is called LORD.
The Spirit is called BREATH by which the Father delivers the WORD to the Son.
Jesus is the MAN Who mediates God's BREATH into WORDS.
He is not The Regulative Principle but the agent of that universal Almighty in Whom we live, move and have our being.

I will post rebuttal to the Genesis story where the ELOHIM cast down (bara) the heavens and earth which Jehovah (the only true elohim) has NOT created in that state. God's bringing LIGHT (knowledge) out of DARKNESS (Ignorance) begins c BC 4000. It ends at c ad 2000 when the "lusted after fruits" relaunched the worship of the Babylonian Mother of harlots. They are speakers, singers and instrument players: John says that they are SORCERERS (the term of the original mother of harlots) and the WILL be cast into the Lake of Fire. When you hear the MARKS of the music it means that Jesus has been there, removed the LAMPS or seven spirits OF Christ (Isa 11) and removed the name of CHRIST as the public confession.

As soon as the MASSES are purged, the LITTLE FLOCK can enjoy peace again for the SEVENTH-DAY REST meaning rest FROM whatever you plan to perform this Sunday and charge a ticked price for.
Ken, Lets try this again....
Ken, Please expound on YOUR theory (show Scripture) of when you said "Eve was SEDUCED and gave birth to the SON OF THE DEVIL....."

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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

January 17th, 2014, 7:09 pm #135

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]We've been discussing the significance of the preposition "OF" in what the Scripture teaches:[/color]
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the Lord (26 references in O.T.; Luke 4:18; Acts 5:9; 8:39; II Cor. 3:17,18)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF God (14 references in O.T.; 12 references in N.T.)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the living God (II Cor. 3:3)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF Christ (Rom. 8:9; I Peter 1:11)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF Jesus Christ (Phil. 1:19)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF His Son (Gal. 4:6)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the holy Spirit OF God (Eph. 4:30)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the Father (Matt. 10:20)
    </li>
  • ... and many other similar passages as the ones listed above. </li>
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Since there is only ONE Spirit (I Cor. 12:13; Eph. 2:18; Eph. 4:4), it would be erroneous for man to make God formulate or generate a separate BEING apart from "the spirit OF the Lord" that the passages present above. Man does this (generate a Spirit Being) to validate the Trinity Creed that espouses God No. 3 -- "the Holy Spirit."[/color]

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]OK, we are not discussing the troublesome preposition "OF" at this time -- it is being presented here only for your "recollection" as we are about to bring up another preposition that is also troublesome to many biblical scholars and Trinitarian followers.

And what is that other preposition? We're finding out now.

Scripture's message ("Mystery of His Will," November 29 2013, 4:06 PM) really caught my attention. It was published in the extensively-discussed, controversial thread, "Biblical Proof That Jesus Lived in Heaven Before Coming to Earth."[/color]
[color=#000000" size="4" face="times]God has chosen in these last times to unveil the mystery (secret) of His Will (Ephesians 1:7-11). Part of that mystery was the plan for God's Word to descend to become human....

This mystery include the revelation of the existence of Christ identified with Jesus, the redemption through His blood, as the Suffering Savior ... God purposed this from the beginning, and in the New Covenant He has unveiled the Christ. Christ sums up all things in the heavens and things on the earth. These events were predestined according to His purpose, who works all things according the purpose of His Will (Word). ... The revelation of Christ was the unveiling to the temple, the understanding that God was in Christ.[/color]
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]It is clear from passages above and in John 1:1,14:

-- That the holy Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ is not another being.
-- That it was "the Word" in the beginning (v. 1) that was made flesh (v.14).
-- That it was "Jesus" in the beginning that became Jesus in v. 14 is fallacious.
-- That the Catholic Trinity's perceived Person No. 3 is not Scripture-based.

Another troubling preposition is "IN" (often substituted or replaced with the verb "IS").

Hopefully, Catholic Trinity followers do not make another mistake due to misuse of prepositions, e.g.:

-- Error: That God was pre-existing Jesus who became Jesus 2000 years ago.
-- Error: That the Word in the beginning was conclusively the pre-existing Jesus.
-- Error: That the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ is "another" Spirit.
-- Error: That there is a REAL "Holy Spirit" -- the Trinity's 3rd PERSON.
-- Error: That there is no distinction between: (1) origination and (2) destination ...
-- ... meaning that when A became (transformed, changed to) B, A was B all along.[/color]

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]And now ... Scripture's remark above: "The revelation of Christ ... the understanding that God was in Christ."

I'm presenting the following passages with the preposition "IN" used in expressions involving God and Christ:[/color]
  • [color=#FF0000" size="4" face="times]Again, think ye that we excuse ourselves unto you? we speak before God in Christ: but we do all things, dearly beloved, for your edifying. (II Cor. 12:19)

    [/color]</li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="4" face="times]And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. (Gal. 3:17)

    [/color]</li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="4" face="times]For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. (Gal. 3:26)

    [/color]</li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="4" face="times]For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. (Phil. 3:3)

    [/color]</li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="4" face="times]I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. (Phil. 3:14)

    [/color]</li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="4" face="times]In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you. (I Thess. 5:18)

    [/color]</li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="4" face="times]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (I Thess. 4:14)

    [/color]</li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="4" face="times]Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: (I Cor.1:2)

    [/color]</li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="4" face="times]But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: (I Cor. 1:30)

    [/color]</li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="4" face="times][14] Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place. [17] For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ. (II Cor. 2)

    [/color]</li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="4" face="times][17] Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. [19] To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. [20] Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. (II Cor. 5)[/color]</li>
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]What does "God IN Christ" mean? Does "God IN Christ" mean the same as "Jesus Christ IS God"?[/color]
Theophilus was the first writer to use the TRIAS concept.

http://www.piney.com/Theophilus.Autolycus.I.html

He understood that anyone who said that Jehovah was a family of gods would likely get hurt real bad. Whatever God IS is made known in terms mortals are able to discuss. Jesus came as the LIGHT of God: this effulgence originates with the ONE JEHOVAH and we see it in the face and words of Jesus.

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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

January 17th, 2014, 7:51 pm #136

Let's not turn this into a multiple-choice question, for that type of question is typically worded as, "Choose the single best answer." Let's just state what the obvious answer is, without mentioning the Trinity or Trinitarians as such. The "us" in those verses include ALL of the following:

(1) God the Father

(2) the Word, Who was with God in the beginning, Who would leave heaven to be transformed into a human being named Jesus in the flesh while on earth, and Who would return to heaven whence He came. So for all practical purposes, the Word and Jesus were, are, and always will be the SAME BEING.

(3) the Holy Spirit
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times](1) The word "Trinity" was purposely NOT mentioned in the question.

(2) The "obvious answer" to one person may not be "obvious" to another.

(3) The question already insured "God the Father" as being at least one.

(4) It is a multiple-choice question whether or not there is a 6th or 7th choice.

(5) Your choice, based on your response, is (3) -- both "the Lord Jesus Christ" and "the Spirit of God."

------------------------

Thanks for responding to the specific question. [It was about time. ]

Let's discuss your choice (in addition to "God the Father"):

(a) "The Word" (by definition: LOGOS is that which is articulated, uttered, spoken or said) in the beginning with God according to John 1:1, being made flesh in the person of Jesus Christ (John 1:14). Consider the transformation from: (1) "the Word" to: (2) Jesus "whom ye have crucified" God has made "BOTH Lord and Christ" [Acts 2:38].

(b) "The Holy Spirit." Please clarify based on YOUR view that you have presented. Is this: (1) "the Spirit of God" as a part of God or (2) your-version-of-the-Trinity's "Holy Spirit" as a "separate divine being" [YOUR view]?

I say "please clarify" because:

(1) In Genesis 1:2, it says -- "And <b>the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters</b>." Based on your interpretation, "the Spirit of God" is a part of God [and I agree with this concept]. But if this is your choice, the Spirit being a part of God means that it is not a separate "being" and cannot be one of "us."

(2) You mentioned "Holy Spirit." And you've indicated before that when God "sends" His "spirit," "it" becomes a separate divine being. I have a difficult time reconciling your perception with the Scripture because of the question: "When did/does God send His holy Spirit" to become a separate divine being?" Has this already occurred? And if so, when? Was "the Holy Spirit" by God at creation?[/color]
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Bill
Bill

January 17th, 2014, 8:39 pm #137

Now that I got around to answering your question, I'm glad you can relax and stop worrying and fidgeting about it. You must learn patience when people either take their time to answer you or choose not to answer at all. In fact, the more anxious and impatient you come across in your desperate desire for an answer, the longer will the answer be delayed...if one comes at all.
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Servant
Servant

January 17th, 2014, 8:46 pm #138

New Thread: what are you going to do when Donnie and I are not around to READ the text for you to MOCK?
Wonderful thing here too is.....I can't mock the text if you don't "speak that which is written." Personal opinion, human commentaries, and greek history/mythology does not apply.
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Bill
Bill

January 17th, 2014, 9:20 pm #139

Ken, Lets try this again....
Ken, Please expound on YOUR theory (show Scripture) of when you said "Eve was SEDUCED and gave birth to the SON OF THE DEVIL....."
Whatever Ken's answer, you can be sure it'll have something to do with instrumental music, Zoe, and/or the starry host.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

January 17th, 2014, 9:23 pm #140

Ken, Lets try this again....
Ken, Please expound on YOUR theory (show Scripture) of when you said "Eve was SEDUCED and gave birth to the SON OF THE DEVIL....."
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Servant,

What about this?

Isn't it common knowledge that Eve was the first on earth to be "assailed by Satan" (Genesis 3:1-24)? [Side note: If Adam was earth's first gardener, Eve was the world's first dressmaker. ]

Here's something to think about -- Eve was the first mother to have a son who was a murderer (Gen. 4:25). "Behind Cain's slaughter of his brother was the serpent who had made their mother the world's first sinner."

Murder is of the devil, isn't it?[/color]


====================

[color=#FF0000" size="3" face="times]In response to Servant's post...[/color]
Last edited by Donnie.Cruz on January 17th, 2014, 10:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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