Praise The Lord For Change Agents Who Do Not Strain Gnats!

Fred Whaley
Fred Whaley

November 3rd, 2011, 1:14 pm #1

Fred recalls being in a "Church of Christ" decades ago when a meeting was at the building and a few deacons stood guard at the door just in case a black person or family might approach. Our doctrine did not permit us to fellowship or worship with them. Praise the Lord for change agents!

Fred recalls being at an assembly to hear Marshall Keeble speak and "the blacks" sat in the balcony due to social doctrines. Praise the Lord for change agents!

Fred remembers a time in "The Church" when a divorced person was refused baptism based upon sound doctrine. Praise the Lord for change agents!

Fred remembers an experience when a teenage young man was asked to leave the building and property of "The Church of Christ" because he was wearing an earring. Praise the Lord for change agents!

Fred has not forgotten being in "The Church" of Christ when a man was refused to serve communion because he was not wearing a coat and tie and a woman was frowned upon for wearing slacks on a Sunday night. Praise the Lord for change agents!

Fred recalls a time when women were forbidden by Scripture so the preacher said from participating in a Bible class discussion. They could not even read the Bible in the class setting if called upon by the teacher. Praise the Lord for change agents!

Fred remembers a squabble in the "Church of Christ" over whether people in the trailer park could no longer be bused in to the property. It was "too much trouble." Do not reduce the change agents to a few preachers! There are thousands of change agents in the church of both men and women OF ALL AGES who want all of this nonsense to cease! Fred does not want to relive past discussions about how we could not clap at a baptism and how it was unscriptural to sing Just A Little Talk With Jesus and how children's worship is dividing the church. Petty remarks and judgmental attitudes because of preachers who taught commandments of men. Praise the Lord for change agents who speak the truth about the church and Jesus and his love and grace! Praise the Lord for teachers who say that it does not matter which mountain you worship on or what the externals are but whether you worship in spirit and truth! Worship is more about the heart than it is the ritual or tradition or clothing one wears or how many people are standing "in the front" or if someone lifts their hands or closes their eyes or does none of these! Donnie you are extremely judgmental of anyone DIFFERENT than you. You want the church and christians to be your clone and the clone of some "pattern." Do you want us to all be like the Corinthian church with their pride and jealousy and divisions? Do you have room in your church for Samson's and David's who sinned?

Jesus was a change agent who taught the Hebrew scribes and Pharisees how they had perverted God's will. Change agents today are teaching the brethren how we in "Churches of Christ" have also perverted God's will and strained gnats while swallowing camels.

Fred Whaley
Quote
Share

Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

November 4th, 2011, 7:28 am #2

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Fred,

In your message, you have much more to say AGAINST the church than falsely giving credit to your leaders, the change agents. In either case, degrading the church or praising the agents, your report clearly reveals your misrepresentation of the truth about the schemes of the change agents. These agents are determined to restructure the church that Christ established.

Christ did not build His church just to be able to rebuild or restructure His church a couple of millennia later

I would never put Christ in the same league with the modern-day change agents operating in the brotherhood. But you just insulted the church and especially its founder.

You're laughably correct in that the Change Agents "Do Not Strain Gnats!" The Change Agents only acquire and devour MEGA churches of Christ for the Community Church.[/color]
Quote
Like
Share

Fred Whaley
Fred Whaley

November 4th, 2011, 12:42 pm #3

The church needs to be restructured and changed whenever some are not allowed to associate or participate. The church needs to be restructured whenever reaching the lost is not the goal but arguing with brethren over old and petty issues. The church needs to change whenever the worship has become predictable and lifeless. The church needs to change whenever the young people are leaving because we have failed them. The church needs to be restructured when a tradition becomes a commandment of men that hinders God's will for worship or evangelism. Donnie there are still a few churches that are refusing to change and improve and are dying that you can go join. You can be irrelevant with them.

Fred
Quote
Share

JimmyJoe
JimmyJoe

November 4th, 2011, 8:01 pm #4

Fred recalls being in a "Church of Christ" decades ago when a meeting was at the building and a few deacons stood guard at the door just in case a black person or family might approach. Our doctrine did not permit us to fellowship or worship with them. Praise the Lord for change agents!

Fred recalls being at an assembly to hear Marshall Keeble speak and "the blacks" sat in the balcony due to social doctrines. Praise the Lord for change agents!

Fred remembers a time in "The Church" when a divorced person was refused baptism based upon sound doctrine. Praise the Lord for change agents!

Fred remembers an experience when a teenage young man was asked to leave the building and property of "The Church of Christ" because he was wearing an earring. Praise the Lord for change agents!

Fred has not forgotten being in "The Church" of Christ when a man was refused to serve communion because he was not wearing a coat and tie and a woman was frowned upon for wearing slacks on a Sunday night. Praise the Lord for change agents!

Fred recalls a time when women were forbidden by Scripture so the preacher said from participating in a Bible class discussion. They could not even read the Bible in the class setting if called upon by the teacher. Praise the Lord for change agents!

Fred remembers a squabble in the "Church of Christ" over whether people in the trailer park could no longer be bused in to the property. It was "too much trouble." Do not reduce the change agents to a few preachers! There are thousands of change agents in the church of both men and women OF ALL AGES who want all of this nonsense to cease! Fred does not want to relive past discussions about how we could not clap at a baptism and how it was unscriptural to sing Just A Little Talk With Jesus and how children's worship is dividing the church. Petty remarks and judgmental attitudes because of preachers who taught commandments of men. Praise the Lord for change agents who speak the truth about the church and Jesus and his love and grace! Praise the Lord for teachers who say that it does not matter which mountain you worship on or what the externals are but whether you worship in spirit and truth! Worship is more about the heart than it is the ritual or tradition or clothing one wears or how many people are standing "in the front" or if someone lifts their hands or closes their eyes or does none of these! Donnie you are extremely judgmental of anyone DIFFERENT than you. You want the church and christians to be your clone and the clone of some "pattern." Do you want us to all be like the Corinthian church with their pride and jealousy and divisions? Do you have room in your church for Samson's and David's who sinned?

Jesus was a change agent who taught the Hebrew scribes and Pharisees how they had perverted God's will. Change agents today are teaching the brethren how we in "Churches of Christ" have also perverted God's will and strained gnats while swallowing camels.

Fred Whaley
Fred, I also remember all the things you posted describing some congregations of the church of Christ during the 1950's and 1960's. I was young and impressionable and although some of my own family held to the southern tradition about African-Americans I was finding it hypocritcal and deplorable. When I was older and made my own decisions, if the church hadn't made the cultural changes that they did I would have left.

I have already read Donnie's rebuttal to your post and realize he did not mention anything about the gist of your post. It seems things do change from generation to generation even in churches of Christ.

I don't check this site as often as it seems to be on the downslope to oblivion. Since the Doctor left I just check to see how Dave and Fred are doing. I already know how Donnie and Ken are making out.

To the few posters that are left, have a nice day.
Quote
Share

Dave
Dave

November 4th, 2011, 11:55 pm #5

Fred recalls being in a "Church of Christ" decades ago when a meeting was at the building and a few deacons stood guard at the door just in case a black person or family might approach. Our doctrine did not permit us to fellowship or worship with them. Praise the Lord for change agents!

Fred recalls being at an assembly to hear Marshall Keeble speak and "the blacks" sat in the balcony due to social doctrines. Praise the Lord for change agents!

Fred remembers a time in "The Church" when a divorced person was refused baptism based upon sound doctrine. Praise the Lord for change agents!

Fred remembers an experience when a teenage young man was asked to leave the building and property of "The Church of Christ" because he was wearing an earring. Praise the Lord for change agents!

Fred has not forgotten being in "The Church" of Christ when a man was refused to serve communion because he was not wearing a coat and tie and a woman was frowned upon for wearing slacks on a Sunday night. Praise the Lord for change agents!

Fred recalls a time when women were forbidden by Scripture so the preacher said from participating in a Bible class discussion. They could not even read the Bible in the class setting if called upon by the teacher. Praise the Lord for change agents!

Fred remembers a squabble in the "Church of Christ" over whether people in the trailer park could no longer be bused in to the property. It was "too much trouble." Do not reduce the change agents to a few preachers! There are thousands of change agents in the church of both men and women OF ALL AGES who want all of this nonsense to cease! Fred does not want to relive past discussions about how we could not clap at a baptism and how it was unscriptural to sing Just A Little Talk With Jesus and how children's worship is dividing the church. Petty remarks and judgmental attitudes because of preachers who taught commandments of men. Praise the Lord for change agents who speak the truth about the church and Jesus and his love and grace! Praise the Lord for teachers who say that it does not matter which mountain you worship on or what the externals are but whether you worship in spirit and truth! Worship is more about the heart than it is the ritual or tradition or clothing one wears or how many people are standing "in the front" or if someone lifts their hands or closes their eyes or does none of these! Donnie you are extremely judgmental of anyone DIFFERENT than you. You want the church and christians to be your clone and the clone of some "pattern." Do you want us to all be like the Corinthian church with their pride and jealousy and divisions? Do you have room in your church for Samson's and David's who sinned?

Jesus was a change agent who taught the Hebrew scribes and Pharisees how they had perverted God's will. Change agents today are teaching the brethren how we in "Churches of Christ" have also perverted God's will and strained gnats while swallowing camels.

Fred Whaley
Donnie......the Truth.....plain and simple. You want the church the way YOU THINK it should be....not the way of Love and Grace that Jesus taught.
Quote
Share

Anonymous
Anonymous

November 5th, 2011, 2:09 am #6

Dave, Fred, Sonny, Jimmy Joe, and Racnor vs. Donnie and Ken.

What does that scenario tell us? It tells us that Donnie and Ken are the only two conservatives left who are still engaging in futile arguments with the liberals and change agents.

Yes, this board is slouching toward oblivion.
Quote
Share

Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

November 5th, 2011, 5:06 am #7

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dr. Crump,

I don't think you would be posting this message if it were still "vs. Dr. Crump, Ken and Donnie." You yourself have implied that the number of posts does not measure the number of those visiting this site. So, what are you suggesting now? Never mind. I know it.

By the way, my observation is that the number of personal attacks has been diminishing.

You already know this -- CM welcomes anyone who wants to engage in discussing doctrinal matters and issues civilly.[/color]
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

November 5th, 2011, 6:27 am #8

The church needs to be restructured and changed whenever some are not allowed to associate or participate. The church needs to be restructured whenever reaching the lost is not the goal but arguing with brethren over old and petty issues. The church needs to change whenever the worship has become predictable and lifeless. The church needs to change whenever the young people are leaving because we have failed them. The church needs to be restructured when a tradition becomes a commandment of men that hinders God's will for worship or evangelism. Donnie there are still a few churches that are refusing to change and improve and are dying that you can go join. You can be irrelevant with them.

Fred
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Fred,

When we speak of the church, we refer to the church that Christ established -- no more, no less. Your identification of "the church" is no different from that of the denominational world, no different from how culture or society perceives it to be.

Just how long ago was it when you learned that when Christ established His church, He had it structured correctly? That despite cultural and societal changes, the gospel of Christ, God's plan of redemption, does not change? What has caused you to unlearn the true nature and structure of the church?

After all, Christ Himself is the Rock upon which He built His own church. When you begin to think of the church that Christ built as something similar to those built by humankind founders [including both men and women (Ellen G. White, Mary Baker Eddy, et al)], your thinking of the nature of the body of Christ becomes flawed.

What the change agents are doing to "restructure the church" is not quite like what you think.

True that new technologies certainly affect our daily lives and methodologies, but they are certainly not good excuses or reasons to change or restructure the church that Christ established. He is still the founder and builder of His church, remember, Fred?

It must be made clear that the objective of your beloved mentors, the change agents operating in the brotherhood, is to TRANSFORM Christ's church into "another denomination." And YOU are showing constantly that you are a strong follower of the change agents and their principle.

Was that Christ's intent or future goal for His church to become 2,000 years later? I think NOT.

The change agents have no business restructuring the church by changing its organization so that the elders are no longer the elders with the qualifications specified in the New Testament; so that the women can now lead men in church leadership matters; so that women deaconesses are now part of the church's org chart; so that baptism is no longer God's design in the forgiveness of sins in order for one to become a Christian; so that the Lord's Supper can be observed any day of the week; so that the Lord's Supper is not actually what it is unless there's a social fellowship meal for the belly to go along with it; etc.; etc.

There is nothing petty about man attempting to redesign the structure of the church and modify or improvise its teachings--baptism, the Lord's Supper, apostolic traditions. That's when the "commandments of men" [that you spoke of above] come into the picture.

Fred, you are capable of better arguments than what you have presented. I'm afraid that to you church doctrine does not matter anymore. Why even bother to stay in the church of Christ when you think of it less than the religious denominations of the world???? You certainly have become very critical of the church you claim to belong to.[/color]
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

November 5th, 2011, 7:08 am #9

Fred, I also remember all the things you posted describing some congregations of the church of Christ during the 1950's and 1960's. I was young and impressionable and although some of my own family held to the southern tradition about African-Americans I was finding it hypocritcal and deplorable. When I was older and made my own decisions, if the church hadn't made the cultural changes that they did I would have left.

I have already read Donnie's rebuttal to your post and realize he did not mention anything about the gist of your post. It seems things do change from generation to generation even in churches of Christ.

I don't check this site as often as it seems to be on the downslope to oblivion. Since the Doctor left I just check to see how Dave and Fred are doing. I already know how Donnie and Ken are making out.

To the few posters that are left, have a nice day.
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Jimmy Joe,

When I published my initial response to Fred's not-so-new arguments against and criticisms of the church that he is still a member of , it was way past midnight and some folks in town were already preparing to go to work. So, it was done very hurriedly, and I didn't explain matters in detail. So, now, I'll just try to answer questions as they come up.

I would just comment that several of the assertions that Fred made have nothing to do with what the change agents are actively pursuing. I don't think readers familiar with this nation's history are that gullible into believing that the church of Christ was solely responsible for the cultural and political differences experienced by its citizens.

Fred pointing out occasional or incidental occurrences in the church simply proves that Fred has been/is being that critical of the church he is a member of. He believes that the church Christ established is DEFECTIVE, when an "individual Christian" misbehaves. He now rejects the pattern or design of the New Testament church. What he ought to do, then, is to NOT disturb the church, but to start his own from scratch. That's what the change agents ought to do, too, instead of transforming and converting existing congregations into the Community Church Movement camp.

I agree with you on the cultural and generational changes. True that the church of Christ can experience those changes, but that doesn't mean that the foundation upon which the church was built changes nor its beliefs and teachings.

(I think that discussions of late have been productive and more civil. That's good. Even Fred is now more seriously participating in the discussion. That's good, too. Let's not be concerned about stats and readership. I have them.)

Good to see you, Jimmy Joe.[/color]
Quote
Like
Share

Anonymous
Anonymous

November 5th, 2011, 1:24 pm #10

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dr. Crump,

I don't think you would be posting this message if it were still "vs. Dr. Crump, Ken and Donnie." You yourself have implied that the number of posts does not measure the number of those visiting this site. So, what are you suggesting now? Never mind. I know it.

By the way, my observation is that the number of personal attacks has been diminishing.

You already know this -- CM welcomes anyone who wants to engage in discussing doctrinal matters and issues civilly.[/color]
I mentioned nothing about the number of VISITORS or personal attacks. I simply said that Donnie and Ken are the only conservatives left (on this site) who are still engaged in futile arguments with liberals and change agents (on this site) such as Dave, Sonny, Frank, Jimmy Joe, and Racnor.

The conservatives have all but left this site as far as POSTING is concerned. Donnie and Ken are still hanging on--desperately. Hence, this site is slouching toward oblivion.
Quote
Share