Otter Creek Church: a Community Church?

Zoe
Zoe

August 30th, 2006, 4:05 pm #11

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>Hello, Another—

I’m curious as to why the reference to yourself as being “Another OC Member.” Besides whom?

It appears that a church’s website tells much about its teachings and practices. Is Rick Warren’s philosophy studied and taught at OC … his 40-day something, his purpose-driven books or manual, etc.? Is instrumental music a specialty in the assembly? I don’t know; I’m not sure—would you inform us?

What’s going on? The subject “Family Matters” that you mentioned is on the front page:
  • ”We'll be spending a few weeks here at the end of the summer to talk about some "Family Matters"--who we are as a church, what we believe, what it means to be a member, what kind of relationship we hope to have with each other. We've been talking about these ideas with new members, but the elders thought it would be a good idea to talk about them with the entire church ... just so we're all on the same page ... just so we all know. The sermons are available on the sermon page--if you want to catch up.”
What really caught my attention was this part of the statement, “…but the elders thought it would be a good idea to talk about them with the entire church ... just so we're all on the same page ...” I’m just wondering what prompted the “but” remark.

Perhaps, you would want to respond to what may be a wrong impression or perception of Otter Creek and its leanings.

Thanks!

Donnie</font>
Mr. Cruz & Mr. Sublett,

Each of you has a church and a faith that is yours. Our job is to attack the devil, not other Christians, their faith and practice.

I want to ask each of a you a question that I would appreciate an HONEST reply to:

How manypeople have you baptized in the past year?
5 Years?
10 Years?

How many churches and specific Christians have you attacked and criticized in that time? How many negative postings about other members of the church have you made in that time?

Will God look at these numbers in your life and say, "Well done, good and faithful servant?"

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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

August 30th, 2006, 4:14 pm #12

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>I have just re-visited Otter Creek’s new-formatted website:
Its story: “…while our heritage is in God and His Son, our history is one of a community congregation that welcomes all comers and seeks opportunities to serve and comfort in His name.” [emph. d.c.]

Its mission: “The Otter Creek Church is a Christ-led, Spirit-powered, Grace-motivated family of believers. Our mission is to:
  • reach up through worship and holy living
  • reach in by fostering community and maturity
  • reach out through service, witness and influence
God is changing the world through us as we become Christ’s presence in this place.”

Its faith: “In a religious world where there is so much variety and divergence, it’s important for a community of faith to be open about what they believe. It is in the spirit of that openness that Otter Creek points to the following matters as important & central to its faith. These matters are the core of us, and though our convictions extend beyond what we mention here, these beliefs are what we consider to be necessary for fellowship in Jesus.

“You won’t find anything strange or out of line with the beliefs of most Christians. We provide this statement of faith, not to explain how we are distinct from everybody around us, but to testify that we have a great deal in common with all those who claim Jesus as Lord and who take the Bible seriously.”

Some of the itemized statements no longer consider baptism as a necessary or the ultimate step in the conversion process—or at least … are inconsistent or contradictory. Notice:
  • “Salvation is by God’s grace, through Christ’s cross, and a result of the Spirit’s active work. It is received through faith. It is sealed in confession and baptism. It is demonstrated in a life lived under the lordship of Jesus.
  • “There is one Church. She is the community of people who have trusted in Jesus to make them right with God and to send the Holy Spirit to make them more like God. The church is a “commissioned people,” partnering with God to accomplish His purposes in this world.
  • “God has given His church special ways in which we can draw close to Him personally and enjoy His blessings. These include baptism [sounds like an after-the-fact … in the church], prayer, worship, preaching, the Supper, Bible study, spiritual gifts, fasting, and relationship with each other and Himself.”
Its leaders: The names of 15 elders are listed. The list is a portion of a page with no pictures, no contact information, etc.—in comparison to pages of info on the admin staff and ministers both men and women.

Whereas Tim Woodroof, “functions as our ‘Senior Minister,’ coordinating the ministry team, working directly with the elders, and being a spokesman for the church

Its other activities: In the TGIW (Thank God it’s Wednesday) section, we read:
  • That’s right; Wednesday nights do count at Otter Creek! We’re not saying you have to attend church on Wednesday in order to please God or get your “ticket punched.” What we are saying is during the summer months of June, July and August, a gifted mix of speakers, authors, musicians, and actors will join us on Wednesday evenings @ 7pm to inspire and challenge. You may just find yourself saying, “Thank God it’s Wednesday!
Musicians! “Join us for a wonderful musical experience” with Phil Keaggy in concert—that was on August 23. Some of the other activities scheduled … and the women speakers:
  • JUNE 7 -- Beyond the DaVinci Code: The Real Story of Jesus & Women
    Dr. Amy Jill Levine
  • JUNE 14 -- How the Trinity Keeps the Christian Life on Track
    [Wasn’t the “direct influence” of God’s Spirit upon the Christian or the church taught? Hmmm! dc]
    Dr. Leonard Allen
  • JUNE 28 -- FX! A Family Worship Experience [What “worship” experience?]
  • AUGUST 9 -- Vespers with a message from Kathleen Flood on
    "Why Sabbath?"
Is this the Otter Creek [Community] Church?

Donnie</font>
Sorry for you: what you describe is a pagan seeker center originated by Apollo or Apollyon at Delphi. His "musical worship team" were the MUSES. In Revelation 17 they work for the MOTHER GODDESS--Zoe and they naturally worship the MOTHER GODDESS whatever the sex. Jesus HIDE the spirit Word from the Scribes, Pharisees and hypocrites. By quoting Isaiah and Ezekiel he MARKED the hypocrite as "speakers, singers and musicians" who work for WAGES. Peter called the corrupters of the Word ADULTERERS who "sold the word at RETAIL."

Paul identified the sects in Rome and EXCLUDED their diversities from discourse in the church. He goes immediately into Romans 15 and defines what you MUST do to be an ekklesia or synagogue of Christ which has NOT staff infection.

The REST Jesus died to give us is FROM "spiritual anxiety created by religious rituals." All performance speaking and singing AROUSE mental excitement. REST or PAU directly commands: "Stop the preaching, STOP the singing, stopTHE MUSIC" and stop the PANic. This is named after the perverted half man/goat as the BEAST (Zoe) in Revelation.

Jesus knew and Paul outlawed this as SELF-PLEASURING which is "virtual adultery" where the AROUSER engages you in a sexual-like climax with God (Carol Wimber, Vineyard, aka New Wineskins). Therefore, Paul OUTLAWED this for the FOOLS just trying to FOOL others as ADULTERERS who traffic in the Word. That was the original sin of LUCIFER or ZOE who is called "the singing and harp playing prostitute" even in the garden of Eden. The ZOE concept is the same old EVE or INANNA perverting the WORD of God to get you, like Adam, to EAT of the tree: Ezekiel 31 says that the Assyrians were the TALLEST tree in eden. The church is to BEAR BURDENS and NOT impose them to FLEECE the widows and honest working people: Woe, Woe says Amos!
  • <font color=red>Rom 15:1 WE then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves </font>
The weak and infirm in Rome would NOT be able to tolerate the SPIRITUAL ANXIETY aroused by the MUSICAL practices of the Dionysiacs and Orphics who had been regulated long ago because those who did suc worship DID IT IN THE NIGHT.

The OUTLAWING of SELF-pleasing which silences the pleasing FOR edification or education is the Greek:
  • <font color=blue>Aresko (g700) ar-es'-ko; prob. from 142 (through the idea of exciting emotion); to be agreeable (or by impl. to seek to be so): - please.

    Airo (g142) ah'ee-ro; a prim. verb; to lift; by impl. to take up or away; fig. to raise (the voice), keep in suspense (the mind); spec. to sail away (i.e. weigh anchor); by Heb. [comp. 5375] to expiate sin: - away with, bear (up), carry, lift up, loose, make to doubt, put away, remove, take (away, up). </font>
Now the corrupting SINGERS and PREACHERS get HIRED because they can excite the crowd (Philo called it enthus O mania: the madness of Corinth) because they TELL you that the gods (demons) are near and ALL such claims causes a subconscience PANIC.

Why shouldn't you see the MASSING of "scholars" as a judgmental sign when they have to be terminally ignorantor terminally EVIL to help seduce you and a university into the end time Harlot Worship where the SINGERS, speakers and musicians work for the MOTHER HARLOT and John calls them SORCERERS. This is the MARK that the CANDLES (seven spirits of Christ) have BEEN removed.

This had the same meaning of EXTERNAL SINGING:
  • <font color=blue>Aoidê 1. art of song, autar aoidên thespesiên, SPELL, incantation, thing sung, song, whether of joy or sorrow,

    Aeidô sing,.hence of all kinds of vocal sounds, crow as cocks, hoot as owls, croak as frogs,; hoi tettiges chamothen aisontai, crowing too soon.

    The tettiges are the LOCUSTS which are the MUSES serving Apollo, Abaddon or Apollyo</font>
It is a well known fact that SINGING and pretending to bring you TO the gods always produced motral fear of panic: however, like bungee jumping, it produced DRUGS which ive you a THRILL. This has the LITERATURE meaning of:
  • <font color=blue>Areskos
    A. pleasing, mostly in bad sense, obsequious, cringing,
    II. areskos, ho, the staff borne by pornoboskoi [brothel keeper] on the stage, </font>
ALL of the singers and players and ACTORS were known as prostitutes on and off the "stage."

The PLEASING preacher is called a HYPOCRITE: all who PERFORM religion are condemned by Jesus as Hypocrits. Those who CHANGE the Word to make it PLEASING and "worth" more BRIBE are called PHARISEES. Those who WRITE non-Biblical songs and sermons are called SCRIBES.
  • <font color=blue>Arist.EN1108a28 Aristotle, Nicomachean Ethics book 2

    [13] In respect of pleasantness and social amusement, the middle character is witty and the middle disposition Wittiness; the excess is Buffoonery and its possessor a buffoon; </font>

    LOVE to pay for PREACHER JOKES which Gallup says are 80% LIES? Why do preachers and singers JOKE? They know that they can DISABLE your rational mind so you just SUCK up junk theology.

    <font color=blue>the deficient man may be called boorish, and his disposition Boorishness. In respect of general pleasantness in life, the man who is pleasant in the proper manner is friendly, and the observance of the mean is Friendliness; he that exceeds, if from no interested motive, is obsequious, if for his own advantage, a flatterer; he that is deficient, and unpleasant in all the affairs of life, may be called quarrelsome and surly.</font>
Paul, as ALL of the Bible and church history identify those who SELL the free water of the Word as ADULTERERSS. Because Isaiah 48 shows WHY God hides the truth from PhDuhs and "traffickers" of the Word we know why Jesus spoke to the CLERGY only in parables so that they would not catch on. When they PRESUME to be skilled enough to SELL watered wine God sends them strong delusions or WRATH and makes a fool out of them. Those OF TRUTH laugh and Hiss them out (the meaning of HAND CLAPPING) but being FOOLS they think that even God is laughing WITH them:
  • <font color=blue>2 Cor 2:17 For we are not as
    MANY, which
    CORRUPT
    the WORD of God:
    but as of sincerity,
    but as OF God,
    in the sight of God speak we in Christ.</font>
Now, if you have to SERMONIZE the Word (and pervert it as I listen to bits of pieces) and DO NOT "teach that which HAS BEEN WRITTEN and AS it has been delivered is--by DEFINITION--one of the MANY who DO NOT speak the word OF GOD and are HYPOCRITES (not sincere) BECAUSE they CORRUPT the Word. What MEANS that word?
  • <font color=blue>Kapeleuo (g2585) kap-ale-yoo'-o; from kapelos , (a huckster); to retail, i.e. (by impl.) to adulterate (fig.): - corrupt

    kapêl-euô ,A. to be a retail-dealer, drive a petty trade

    2. metaph., k. ta prêgmata, of Darius, sell learning by RETAIL, hawk it about, Pl. Prt.313d; k. ton logon tou theou 2 Ep.Cor.2.17 i. e. fight half-heartedly, A.Th. 545; k. têi Chariti tên amoibên Epicur. k. tên politeian traffic in grants of citizenship [church MEMBERSHIPS] of prostitutes, Ph.2.394,576; eirênên pros Rhômaious Chrusiou k. Hdn.6.7.9; tuchê kapêleuousa . . ton bion [ZOE] playing tricks with LIFE, corrupting it, </font>

    The Grace Only Concept identifies FAVORS granted to a male

    <font color=blue>Charis. 4. love-charm, philtre 2. esp. in erotic sense, of favours granted
    Worship of demons: V. daimonôn charis homage due to them, their worship, majesty,</font>
Isn't it interesting that the FOOLS (Paul's concept) being FOOLED are warned in Romans 10 and 1 Cor 10 as BULL or DEMON WORSHIPERS because they still PLAY just as they did in Musical idolatry at Mount Sinnai? This was MUSICAL IDOLALTRY which always perverts as Romans 1 defines it.

And yet, the the PhDuhs flock around because Jesus said that "doctors of the law take away the key to knowledge" (the seven SPIRIT of Christ).

I may have to tell you about the PLAY they tried on Jesus and the PLAY being performed in the Holy Places CLAIMING to "lead you into the presence of God" and therefore ARE the abomination of Desolation defined in Maccabees as by MUSIC and real or VIRTUAL sexuality.

God says WHY pay money for what is NOT bread? If Jesus paid it all then WHY are you such a SUPERIOR CREATURE that you PAY someone to CORRUPT the water? If you are performing the LAW OF SINGING then you are several centuries too late for the church: this was added by Bishops who were not even Christians "because it was common to all pagan CULTS." If you are doing the ACT of listening to a SERMON you are just as late that being one of the hearly divisive heresies. If you are practicing THE LAW OF GIVING then you are thieves and Robbers.

Therefore, the ONLY way you can FINANCE these many corrupters who have to keep your HEED on them as they suck up your money and time, is to ROB the widows and honest working people. The assembly (synagogue) ASSEMBLED themselves to rest and read and take the Lord's Supper. Then THEY DISassembled THEMSELVES and the assembly ceases to exist--literate 101a. As in the civil Ekklesia they elected a CONTACT MAN each year to make sure the group kept in contact. Romans 14 EXCLUDES from the AREA OF INFLUENCE the private money and time of the WORKING PEOPLE and calls them into assembly to SPEAK that which is written using ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH. This was to EDUCATE, comfort with the SCRIPTURES (only), Glorify God and KEEP THE UNITY.

Why WON'T one of thes PhDuhs DEFEND in writing what they ENDORSE by attending NOT-churches? Well, we KNOW, don't we? If they OUTED their agenda they would NOT be good vipers. Plato warns that "when the MUSIC CHANGES it means that the LAWS are being changed: and you have to do it GRADUALLY at first and call it entertainment." History notes that THEATERS which were often outlawed were BUILT as TEMPLES or "seeker centers." Isn't that as slick as a salted slug. But, "shall He find faith when He returns?" No, almost none and it will be OUTSIDE the CENTERS suffering reproaches (from the churches) with Christ.
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

August 31st, 2006, 2:56 pm #13

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>I have just re-visited Otter Creek’s new-formatted website:
Its story: “…while our heritage is in God and His Son, our history is one of a community congregation that welcomes all comers and seeks opportunities to serve and comfort in His name.” [emph. d.c.]

Its mission: “The Otter Creek Church is a Christ-led, Spirit-powered, Grace-motivated family of believers. Our mission is to:
  • reach up through worship and holy living
  • reach in by fostering community and maturity
  • reach out through service, witness and influence
God is changing the world through us as we become Christ’s presence in this place.”

Its faith: “In a religious world where there is so much variety and divergence, it’s important for a community of faith to be open about what they believe. It is in the spirit of that openness that Otter Creek points to the following matters as important & central to its faith. These matters are the core of us, and though our convictions extend beyond what we mention here, these beliefs are what we consider to be necessary for fellowship in Jesus.

“You won’t find anything strange or out of line with the beliefs of most Christians. We provide this statement of faith, not to explain how we are distinct from everybody around us, but to testify that we have a great deal in common with all those who claim Jesus as Lord and who take the Bible seriously.”

Some of the itemized statements no longer consider baptism as a necessary or the ultimate step in the conversion process—or at least … are inconsistent or contradictory. Notice:
  • “Salvation is by God’s grace, through Christ’s cross, and a result of the Spirit’s active work. It is received through faith. It is sealed in confession and baptism. It is demonstrated in a life lived under the lordship of Jesus.
  • “There is one Church. She is the community of people who have trusted in Jesus to make them right with God and to send the Holy Spirit to make them more like God. The church is a “commissioned people,” partnering with God to accomplish His purposes in this world.
  • “God has given His church special ways in which we can draw close to Him personally and enjoy His blessings. These include baptism [sounds like an after-the-fact … in the church], prayer, worship, preaching, the Supper, Bible study, spiritual gifts, fasting, and relationship with each other and Himself.”
Its leaders: The names of 15 elders are listed. The list is a portion of a page with no pictures, no contact information, etc.—in comparison to pages of info on the admin staff and ministers both men and women.

Whereas Tim Woodroof, “functions as our ‘Senior Minister,’ coordinating the ministry team, working directly with the elders, and being a spokesman for the church

Its other activities: In the TGIW (Thank God it’s Wednesday) section, we read:
  • That’s right; Wednesday nights do count at Otter Creek! We’re not saying you have to attend church on Wednesday in order to please God or get your “ticket punched.” What we are saying is during the summer months of June, July and August, a gifted mix of speakers, authors, musicians, and actors will join us on Wednesday evenings @ 7pm to inspire and challenge. You may just find yourself saying, “Thank God it’s Wednesday!
Musicians! “Join us for a wonderful musical experience” with Phil Keaggy in concert—that was on August 23. Some of the other activities scheduled … and the women speakers:
  • JUNE 7 -- Beyond the DaVinci Code: The Real Story of Jesus & Women
    Dr. Amy Jill Levine
  • JUNE 14 -- How the Trinity Keeps the Christian Life on Track
    [Wasn’t the “direct influence” of God’s Spirit upon the Christian or the church taught? Hmmm! dc]
    Dr. Leonard Allen
  • JUNE 28 -- FX! A Family Worship Experience [What “worship” experience?]
  • AUGUST 9 -- Vespers with a message from Kathleen Flood on
    "Why Sabbath?"
Is this the Otter Creek [Community] Church?

Donnie</font>
The Bible defines the BEGINNING fall from grace involving EVE: Eve in the Greek is ZOE. The FINAL FALL from Grace has John identifying the "babylon harlot religion" where the speakers, singers, musicians and ALL religious operatives are SORCERERS. Why is it evil to DEFINE that which no PhDuh knows about to show that John was speaking for perhaps ALL periods when the "laity" falls under the spell of NICO. The TRINITY worshipped with music caused THE FALL at Mount Sinai.
  • <font color=blue>"Demophon, the favourite of Sophocles, once kept as his mistress, when he himself was still young, the 'she-goat' Nico, although she was older. She was nicknamed She-goat because she had once devoured that tall lover, Greensprout Thallus;
    Capella (a she goat), II. Addicted to pleasure; luxurious, voluptuous; and subst., a voluptuary, a wanton. 1. Spoiled with indulgence, delicate, dainty, effeminate, </font>
Shame, shame, shame: while our 6 Billion in the world will grow to 10 billion before the boy singers die, those who EAT, DRINK AND MAKE MARY are perfect models of the end-time Babylon Whore in Revelation 18:22. Those who have taken you captive are using your for their fun and profit. The MARK. Lucifer as "the singing and harp-playing prostitute in the garden of Eden and INCARNATING the king of Tyre stole MONEY and SOULS using singers and instrumentalists. Lucifer is Zoe is Eve in the Genesis "model" and in the Revelation 18 "model." Her speakers, singers and musicians perform SORCERY and this MARKS the candles being removed. At the same time there is NO FUNDING for the TRUE evangelists who has a GO BUTTON: check your's out.

Jesus died to remove the BURDENS and the BURDEN LADERS. The burden is defined just like all paganism as "spiritual anxiety created by religious rituals." The word REST is dedicated to meaning STOP the rhetoric, the singing, the instruments and ALL "worship" rituals which PRETEND to expose people directly to a deity.
  • Those who impose such rituals are the Warren Jeffs and use the same "fear" tactics that you need the STAFF to as mediums you you can speak forth to God (sermon notes).

    No office in the ekklesia has the authority and FUNDING to hire additional staff who have to keep you busy all week to JUSTIFY their work. They are OPPRESSORS and not ministers:Paul commanded Timothy to LABOR so that he could practice the Agape meaning to feed the poor each morning.
There is no LAW OF SINGING much less a "musical minister" in the ekklesia or school of the Bible: the texts EXCLUDE it by the word SPEAK, and One to Another, and "that which is written."
  • Those who insist that you are under a law to do professonal-grade MUSIC and deny the songs and sermons of Christ the only Spirit, are Jim Jones who force you to drink something worse than KoolAid.

    The word NOMOS as in "legalist" points directly to the OWED songs and music to Apollo or the Apollyon using the MUSES who were prostitutes and sorcers.
Those who push TITHING deny the work of the cross and pretend that they are PRIESTS and the institution owns INCOME from your work are legalistic oppressors. Pushing the LAW OFGIVING fromthe poor TO the able-bodied males is ANTI-Biblical, ANTI-Christian and ANTI-church history. Again, CORRUPTING the word is making a PROFESSION out of it. In order to fool the fools the Word has to be DOCTORED and that defines the Pharisees. The Scribes REwrite the WORD and songs in ORDER to have CRIPPLED LAMBS to sell so they DON'T have to work. The SECTARIAN Hypocrites then PERMORM the pagan ritual and Jesus identified as Hypocrites "speakers, singers and musicians."
  • <font color=red>kapêl-euô , A. to be a retail-dealer, drive a petty trade... kapêleu' drive a trade, chaffer with your vegetable food Hdt.1.155</font>
The word ADULTERY and KLEPTO is associated with this verse. The concept of arousal singing to produce the outlawed PLEASURING is also connected with KLEPTOMANIA by the "heretics" who LIFT YOU UP to carry you away for THEIR OWN PLEASURES.

Notice that SINGING and PLAYING is always associated with the EFFEMINATE and always associated with COMMERCE or MERCHANDISING!
  • <font color=blue>Hdt.1.155 Heredotus: Cyrus told how to take the FIGHT out of the enemy: [4] But pardon the Lydians, and give them this command so that they not revolt or pose a danger to you: send and forbid them to possess weapons of war,
    • and order them to wear tunics under their cloaks
      and knee-boots on their feet,
      and to teach their sons lyre-playing [kitharizein]
      and song [psallein] and dance
    </font><font color=purple>and shop-keeping [huckstering].
    And quickly, O king,</font>
    <font color=red>
    • you shall see them become WOMEN instead of men,
      so that you need not fear them, that they might revolt."
    </font>
That proves that Satan us using the neutered performers to neuter the church: you will notice that it ALWAYS takes TWO WORDS to include BOTH singing AND playing an instrument.
  • <font color=blue>[4] Ludoisi wearing kithônas [chiton] kitharizein te kai psallein kai kapêleuein [prostitutes, petty trade, playing tricks, corrupting]

    Illudo to play at or with any thing, to sport with, amuse one's self with , 2. To sport or fool away a thing, i. e. to destroy or waste in sport; in mal. part., to violate, abuse B. To sport, dally, wanton (cf. "amorous play,")

    Jdg 19:25 But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go

    Ludo, to play for money, B. To play, sport, frisk, frolic, A. To sport, play with any thing, to practise as a pastime, amuse one's self with any thing, to play on an instrument of music, to make or compose music or song : Verg. E. 1, 10 puellae, id. Am. 3, 1, 27, B. To sport, dally, wanton (cf. "amorous play)</font>
Like I always say as EVERYONE always says, the word PSALLO never includes an instrument unless the PLUCKING word is added and the NAME of the instruments.
  • <font color=blue>And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness
    • against the sorcerers, and
      against the adulterers, and
      against false swearers, Malachi 3:5a
    </font>
John identifies the speakers, singers and musicians as working for the "Babylon whore" and calls them sorcerers. These sorcerers are the same SERPENT in the garcen who was a Musical Enchanter: Eve ATE of the "tallest TREE in Eden."

The TITHE was NEVER taken from the wage earners: Only if the PASTOR gives one a farm does he have the right to demand 10% of the RENT of that free farm ONCE a year. Amos connects MUSIC and the tithe DAILY while the modern OPPRESSOR wants it once a week. If you work for a WAGE you do not own ONE PENNY to the lazy pastor. None of the "theaters for holy entertainment" could ever happen with true free will giving.
  • <font color=blue>H3784 kashaph kaw-shaf' A primitive root; properly to whisper a spell, that is, to inchant or practise magic :sorcerer, (use) witchcraft).</font>

    The SERPENT is:

    <font color=blue>H5172 nachash naw-khash' A primitive root; properly to hiss, that is, whisper a (magic) spell; divine, enchanter </font>
The singers, musicians and speakers in Revelation 18 are called SORCERERS. The word for the serpent is OPHIS or the sOPHISts. Look again as the HUCKSTERING concept
  • <font color=red>kapêl-euô , 2. metaph., k. ta prêgmata, of Darius, Hdt.3.89; k. ta mathêmata sell learning by retail, hawk it about, </font>
Again, Heredotus is quoted to make a point: a GOOD shepherd tries to SERVE the sheep but the evil shepherd finds a way TO CHARGE for ever service. How more dishonest can you be than to HUCKESTER the FREE WORD like a prostitute using MUSICIANS to seduce the fools?
  • <font color=blue>Heredotus 3 [3] In the reigns of Cyrus and Cambyses after him there was no fixed tribute, but payment was made in gifts. It is because of this fixing of tribute, and other similar ordinances, that the Persians called Darius the merchant, Cambyses the master, and Cyrus the father; for Darius made petty profit out of everything,</font>
    <font color=purple>and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages,
    the widow, and the fatherless,</font>
    <font color=red>and that turn aside [pervert] the stranger from his right,
    and fear not me, saith the Lord of hosts. Malachi 3:5b</font>
THE PRIESTS were the ones who were doing the ROBBING because they did not teach and work as vocational ministers.

Because the CLASS of temple builders deny the Word of God in the sense that those they take captive believe it, they have no reason NOT to turn the simple weekly "school of Christ" where any literate person can TRUMP preachers just by reading it as written. Not only are they NOT Bible Believers they repudiate Christ and Paul as suffering servants. What they have constructed is a CHURCH named after CIRCE the holy whore who used drugs and music to turn people into SWINE.

So, why should anyone gloat about how BIG and popular they are when Paul said that you will not find the KINGDOM unless you go OUTSIDE these massed meetings. MASS MEETINGS would be defined by John and Hitler as the wish to call for the ROCKS to fall on them and HIDE them from being "aliens and strangers in a hostile world."
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

September 1st, 2006, 7:58 am #14

I'm "Another OC Member," simply to differentiate between myself and the OC Member in the MoreChurches side of things...

As to your other questions, I respond simply for information.

Is Rick Warren’s philosophy studied and taught at OC … his 40-day something, his purpose-driven books or manual, etc.?

It has not been studied by the church at large, or by a particular class. Individual small groups might have and individual members have.

Is instrumental music a specialty in the assembly?

Not in the Sunday morning assembly. On Sunday nights and Wednesday nights? Yes. This is primarily out of devotion to our heritage in the Church of Christ, not because of some determination of sinfulness within the practice. I would recommend listening to "Worship Anchors and Boundaries" for a much more detailed explanation of the thinking behind this.

What really caught my attention was this part of the statement, “…but the elders thought it would be a good idea to talk about them with the entire church ... just so we're all on the same page ...” I’m just wondering what prompted the “but” remark.

There is a new/perspective members class called Foundations where much of the material in this current series is covered. The elders thought it would be good for the entire congregation to here where they and the ministers stood on these subjects, so they asked Tim Woodroof to preach a series on these subjects, as you can see from the entire statement:

We've been talking about these ideas with new members, but the elders thought it would be a good idea to talk about them with the entire church ... just so we're all on the same page ... just so we all know.

Again, I would recommend listening to the sermons, particularly "Who is Otter Creek?" That will give you a clearer idea.

As far as the "wrong idea," rumors and innuendo spread very quickly. Less about actions because those are pretty apparent, but primarily about motivations. I just would rather people really do the full amount of research into somewhere rather than just making assumptions.
<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>Hello, Another—

Thank you for the response.

Would you explain the following statement regarding instrumental music?
  • “Not in the Sunday morning assembly. On Sunday nights and Wednesday nights? Yes. This is primarily out of devotion to our heritage in the Church of Christ, not because of some determination of sinfulness within the practice.”
What exactly is “primarily out of devotion to our heritage in the Church of Christ”? I really don’t understand the way you expressed “our heritage.” I also take it that the elders have determined for the church that there is no sinfulness in the practice of using instruments in the gathering on Sunday nights and Wednesday nights, but that there is so in the Sunday morning assembly?

Is the practice to use musical instruments in the night assemblies going to be the same practice in the Sunday morning assembly sometime soon? How long has IM been in use at OC? You may have heard of what happened at OH [Oak Hills] in San Antonio, TX. The elders of the church there approved the use of IM in one of its smaller worship assemblies, but not long after that, IM became the full-blown “norm” in all of its services.

Will you keep us updated if or when IM begins participating in the Sunday A.M. assembly?

When there is a strong leader whose alignment is with the Change or pseudo- or half-baked Charismatic Movement, such as Tim Woodroof of O.C. or Max Lucado of O.H., conservative members of the church become concerned.

Would you let us know where the ministers and elders stand on the purpose of baptism—is it “because one has believed and his sins already forgiven” or is it “in order to receive forgiveness in His blood"? I mentioned this in my initial post.

There are really more questions.

Perhaps you can tell us what other changes there are in doctrine, teachings and beliefs espoused by the ministers and elders at OC—when compared to what has been learned and taught for ages from the Holy Scripture.

In your opinion, does OC resemble a typical congregation in the brotherhood or does it resemble a Community Church—if you know of one or have been affiliated with one at all?

Donnie</font>
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

September 1st, 2006, 8:20 pm #15

Mr. Cruz & Mr. Sublett,

Each of you has a church and a faith that is yours. Our job is to attack the devil, not other Christians, their faith and practice.

I want to ask each of a you a question that I would appreciate an HONEST reply to:

How manypeople have you baptized in the past year?
5 Years?
10 Years?

How many churches and specific Christians have you attacked and criticized in that time? How many negative postings about other members of the church have you made in that time?

Will God look at these numbers in your life and say, "Well done, good and faithful servant?"
What I infer from Zoe's post is that the number of people that we personally baptize in our lifetime will determine whether we are admitted into heaven. Of course, Zoe doesn't state what that specific, minimum number is, but surely there must be a magic number, or else s/he would not have mentioned it.

So let's ask Zoe the same question: How many people has s/he baptized by immersion for remission of sins and salvation (Mark 16:16 KJV) in his/her lifetime? Is this number sufficient to enter heaven? If not, how many baptisms are required before Zoe can enter heaven? And if Zoe has already met the required "quota" of baptisms that s/he implies is necessary to enter heaven, will s/he stop, sit back on his/her haunches, and revel in his/her own personal righteousness?
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Lee Gullism
Lee Gullism

September 2nd, 2006, 4:05 pm #16


Dr. Crump,
You obviously (and predictably) missed Zoe's point.

The point isn't, "You have to baptize a certain NUMBER of people to be righteous" but "You (talking to Donnie & Ken- but go ahead and throw yourself in if you'd like), YOU, spend a lot of time and energy tearing down the church and tearing down souls amd tearing down the Kingdom. How much time have you spent building it up?"

You are not called to fight about instruments etc... In fact, you are specifically called NOT to fight about that kind of stuff. What you are also called to, is to baptize people.

I would say that Zoe is just asking a legitimate question, and I think the answer is embarrasing, and that's why there has not been an answer.

As long as we're asking, Dr. Crump, how many people have YOU baptized this year? The past 5? 10?

I'll save you a post. I already know you will answer the question with a question (which is rude). "How many people have YOU baptized Lee?" As soon as you answer, I will.

P.S.- My answer will surprise you.
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

September 3rd, 2006, 5:07 pm #17

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>I have just re-visited Otter Creek’s new-formatted website:
Its story: “…while our heritage is in God and His Son, our history is one of a community congregation that welcomes all comers and seeks opportunities to serve and comfort in His name.” [emph. d.c.]

Its mission: “The Otter Creek Church is a Christ-led, Spirit-powered, Grace-motivated family of believers. Our mission is to:
  • reach up through worship and holy living
  • reach in by fostering community and maturity
  • reach out through service, witness and influence
God is changing the world through us as we become Christ’s presence in this place.”

Its faith: “In a religious world where there is so much variety and divergence, it’s important for a community of faith to be open about what they believe. It is in the spirit of that openness that Otter Creek points to the following matters as important & central to its faith. These matters are the core of us, and though our convictions extend beyond what we mention here, these beliefs are what we consider to be necessary for fellowship in Jesus.

“You won’t find anything strange or out of line with the beliefs of most Christians. We provide this statement of faith, not to explain how we are distinct from everybody around us, but to testify that we have a great deal in common with all those who claim Jesus as Lord and who take the Bible seriously.”

Some of the itemized statements no longer consider baptism as a necessary or the ultimate step in the conversion process—or at least … are inconsistent or contradictory. Notice:
  • “Salvation is by God’s grace, through Christ’s cross, and a result of the Spirit’s active work. It is received through faith. It is sealed in confession and baptism. It is demonstrated in a life lived under the lordship of Jesus.
  • “There is one Church. She is the community of people who have trusted in Jesus to make them right with God and to send the Holy Spirit to make them more like God. The church is a “commissioned people,” partnering with God to accomplish His purposes in this world.
  • “God has given His church special ways in which we can draw close to Him personally and enjoy His blessings. These include baptism [sounds like an after-the-fact … in the church], prayer, worship, preaching, the Supper, Bible study, spiritual gifts, fasting, and relationship with each other and Himself.”
Its leaders: The names of 15 elders are listed. The list is a portion of a page with no pictures, no contact information, etc.—in comparison to pages of info on the admin staff and ministers both men and women.

Whereas Tim Woodroof, “functions as our ‘Senior Minister,’ coordinating the ministry team, working directly with the elders, and being a spokesman for the church

Its other activities: In the TGIW (Thank God it’s Wednesday) section, we read:
  • That’s right; Wednesday nights do count at Otter Creek! We’re not saying you have to attend church on Wednesday in order to please God or get your “ticket punched.” What we are saying is during the summer months of June, July and August, a gifted mix of speakers, authors, musicians, and actors will join us on Wednesday evenings @ 7pm to inspire and challenge. You may just find yourself saying, “Thank God it’s Wednesday!
Musicians! “Join us for a wonderful musical experience” with Phil Keaggy in concert—that was on August 23. Some of the other activities scheduled … and the women speakers:
  • JUNE 7 -- Beyond the DaVinci Code: The Real Story of Jesus & Women
    Dr. Amy Jill Levine
  • JUNE 14 -- How the Trinity Keeps the Christian Life on Track
    [Wasn’t the “direct influence” of God’s Spirit upon the Christian or the church taught? Hmmm! dc]
    Dr. Leonard Allen
  • JUNE 28 -- FX! A Family Worship Experience [What “worship” experience?]
  • AUGUST 9 -- Vespers with a message from Kathleen Flood on
    "Why Sabbath?"
Is this the Otter Creek [Community] Church?

Donnie</font>
The Spirit of Christ commanded SPEAK or READ for the church in the Wilderness. Jesus stood up to READ in the synagogue and EXAMPLED the common decency of SITTING down and DIALOGING. Paul used the word SPEAK and said with ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH using THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN or Scripture. He said SPEAK (externally) and sing and make your HEART STINGS get plucked. The church NEVER sang because arousal SINGING was outlawed. The historic church NEVER sang but spoke the PSALMS and other material until Preachers and Songs were ADDED in about the year 400. Therefore, arousal singing AND instruments were added by the Catholics who confess that it WAS COMMON TO ALL PAGAN CULTS. That means that you ARE not a Christian group.

It is not possible for a misleader to be literate and not know the UNIVERSAL MARK of music with Lucifer-Zoe and the Mother Goddess Worship intended to SILENCE the SON of the FATHER. All history notes of arousal singing and playing instruments: "only females and effeminate males can fall into it." Bible literates knows that it was OUTLAWED for "the church in the wilderness" by the word TRIUMPH OVER, that law was obeyed in the synagogue and OUTLAWED by Paul's use of the SELF-PLEASING which word points specificially to ANYTHING which mental excitement."

I have to believe that promoters of such pagan worship are CHANGE AGENTS for an UNholy spirit. Singing and MUSIC was Lucifer/Zoe's eternal METHOD of silencing the Word of God: in heaven and the fallen angels, In the garden, with Jacob and Laban, at Sinai where music was the PRAYER to turn back (pervert) to paganism GRANTED by God and defined by Amos and Stephen, Job 21, Amos 5-9, Isaiah 5, Ezekiel 33 to which Jesus points along with Isaiah to identify HYPOCRITES (speakers, singers, musicians) and the end time same HARLOT whose singers are SORCERERS (John 17-18)

God says through Amos that the MUSICIANS take captive those FLEECED unlawfully by the priests led by their WIVES, that they hungered and thirsted for the Word of God but could not find it. God promised that the WIVES would be led by fishhooks in their nose into captivity and death. The SONGS in the temple would be HOWLING (praise singing) in that day: That is the MARK. And then God said I WILL NOT PASS THIS WAY AGAIN.
  • Mike Armour:<font color=red>The non-instrumental position depended entirely on historical precedents from the first centuryand on inferences drawn from the handful of Biblical passages that mention music in the early church. </font>
No one who has read the Bible could make that statement. From Genesis to Revelation the SOURCE of music in religion is Satan. Lucifer or Zoe was in the Garden of Eden as "the singing and harp playing prostitute." SHE/he came with WIND, STRING and PERCUSSION instruments. As Lucifer/Zoe he/she was the king/queen of Babylon. She/he would go back into hell with his HARPS and buried-alive harpists. She is the Babylon Whore in Revelation 18 and her singers, musicians, speakers and craftsmen (theater builders and stage managers) are called by John SORCERERS by which they DECEIVED the world just as Eve was deceived deceived SEXUALLY.

Isaiah 30 proves that HELL was prepared specificially for those who BLEED off WORSHIP due only to a SPIRIT God who cannot be seduced. The MARK or SIGNAL of that drive will be the use of WIND, STRING and PERCUSSION instruments. I THINK someone is being FOOLED and Paul confirmed that "fools love to be fooled.
  • Rubel Shelly: <font color=red> One of the things that makes us who we are is our distinctive musical heritage and practice. </font>
Let's begin by defining the second error-teaching word slipped in which has a more judgmental taste when understood. Shelly does confess that our HERITAGE has the Bible and history on its side. That means that it CANNOT be our heritage if EVERYONE before us used common sense and DECENCY and did not MUSICATE in the face of a Holy God still speaking when the "elders" as the ONLY pastor-teachers reads or "teaches that which has been taught."

A God-Condemned SECTARIANISM added INSTRUMENTS mostly post Uncivil war. Because, this was a pagan HERITAGE documented in clay tablets 3,000 years older than Moses and ADDED to the common practice THAT defines HERESY or SECTARIAN. SOWING DISCORD is a sin BEYOND REDEMPTION.

Tabering (the source of Topheth or Solomon's Music Grove or Hell) is also translated as TO SPIT IN MY FACE by Job. Hand clapping means to VOMIT because it was HISSING for the LOSER and the Living Word and the Written Word is being HISSED out of the den: that needs no proving when you invent your own songs and sermons:
  • <font color=blue>Heritage: 1. Property that can be inherited. 2 (a) something handed down from one's ancestors or the past, as a characteristic, a culture, tradition, or (b) the rights, burdens, or status resulting from being born in a certain time or place. (Webster)</font>
There is no religious use of INSTRUMENTS in the entiere Bible not connected to SATAN as the only source, prostitutes, sodomites, Warrior Levites under the DOOMED king and kingdom to create PANIC, loud noise as EXORCISM in the LIKE THE NATION'S temple built by Hiram the Masonic Architect JUST LIKE his own included numerous IDOLS: after all, the nation had been sentenced to captivity and death with the KINGS the leaders.

There is no church theologion who does not repudiate music based on CLEAR BIBLICAL commands and the fact that MUSIC, rhetoricians or ANYONE on the DOLE has NO role to play in the SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE.

There is NO literature written by those contemporaneous with the Bible which does not GRASP the meaning of CAIN as a MUSICAL NOTE and which does not blame SATAN for all religious music FOR WHICH God will come with ten thousands of His saints just like he came at MOUNT SINAI with a <font color=red>FIREY LAW</font>
  • <font color=blue>It was the synagogues that remained after AD.70, NOT the Temple! The original purpose of the synagogue was primarily for Scripture-reading and exposition of the passages read (Lk.4:16-22; Mt.13:54; Mk.1:21-22; Jn.6:59).</font>
That was the DIRECT COMMAND for the QAHAL or "church in the wilderness" where the SOUNDS were outlawed and a Holy Convocation meant to REST and READ and REHEARSE the WORD of the Living Word. Any competent elder would have it MEMORIZED as it was revealed. That what Jesus exampled and commanded, what Paul defined as synagogue in Romans 15 and all of the NOT SINGING passages, what Paul commanded Timothy and what the church practiced for centuries. There was NO SINGING as an act of worship or PREACHING until close to the 400's and THEN by bishops selected who were NOT Christians.
  • <font color=blue>So long as one's idea of worship is rooted in the Temple concept, one will crave "celebrations" and big displays. The charismatic style of worship naturally arises out of this false concept of the O.T. Temple.</font>
The KING would select the YOUTH to make "instruments of Chariots" and run before the king to toot the commoners out of the path. This was a CURSE along with the king taking a TITHE of their property to give to his MINISTRY LEADERS. There is NO LAW OF TITHING and NO LAW OF GIVING. Therefore, those who MISLEAD you have fabricated a SEEKER CENTER well defined at Delphi where APOLLO (Abaddon or Apollyon) had his ORACLE. The MUSES or LOCUSTS were his musical worship team: they are defined as ADULTERESSES and dirty. Peter calls the CORRUPTERS of the Word those who SELL LEARNING AT RETAIL.

ALL of the MARKS of the Beast have been usled as Revelation defines the LOCUSTS as to SEPARATE OUT those marked by the BEAST and those marked by the WORD. ZOE is defined forever as "the BEAST and female instructing principle." Her task is to silence the little dumb jehovah and logos.

Works, doesn't it? MUSES are LOCUSTS with stingers in their tail and Paul calls them SORCERERS. Jesus calls all PERFORMERS Hypocrirtes because that is what the word means.
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

September 3rd, 2006, 7:46 pm #18

PART TWO: Don't let Amy bring her GOAT. This is long but CONTRADICTS the Zoe/Otter and other beast terms.

Some GOSPEL OF JUDAS to fit the ZOE concept of EVE as the "mother of the Gods." Paul understand the parabolic message of EVE and of the "two sons" Cain and Able and we should trust Him rather than a NEO-Gnottic which is the END TIME Babylon Harlot of Revelation 17 and the singers, musicians and rhetoricians ARE called SORCERERS.

It comes as no surprise that the MARK of Zoe would import Amy Jill Levine who is a self-styled feminist, pro-abortonists and a Jew. God won't LET a PhDuh in the FREE WORD hear the facts: in fact, He sends them strong delusions that they believe a lie. One should note also that the ZOE or GNOSTIC concept is forcing a FEMINIST system which was never ISRAELITE but based on the Jews whom God TURNED OVER to worship the starry host at Mount Sinai. From that time onward, the king, monarchy, temple etal were Babylonian or of the Goyim or Gentile system. That is why Jesus REFUSED to speak to them and defined them as the sons of the Devil because they "speak on their own." John refused to baptize them as of the GENERATION (race) of VIPERS. The CROOKED generation specificially points to those who follow Cain (from a musical note) under the rulership of Satan or Lucifer or Zoe:
  • <font color=red>The "Gospel of Judas" not only takes its place among numerous 'noncanonical' gospels, acts, and epistles, it also shows that Jesus' early followers did not feel themselves constrained by the canonical materials. Those who composed and copied the text challenged the traditional characterization of Judas as a villain, espoused a stricter sexual ethic than the canonical gospels, and offered an alternative theology to both the proto-Orthodox church and the Synagogue. In so doing, they tell us much about second century belief and practice, but very little if anything about the man from Nazareth himself." Amy Jill Levine</font>
http://www.piney.com/Cain.html

The Gospel of Judas had LOST its place among the CHRISTIANS 1800 years before Amy Jill Lavine was BORN.
  • <font color=blue>The Gospel of Judas does not claim that the other disciples knew gnostic teachings. On the contrary, it asserts that the disciples have not learned the true Gospel, which Jesus taught only to Judas Iscariot, as exemplified in the following words: "Knowing that Judas was reflecting upon something that was exalted, Jesus said to him: Step away from the others and I shall tell you the mysteries of the Kingdom. It is possible for you to reach it, but you will grieve a great deal. For someone else will replace you, in order that the twelve disciples may again come to completion with their God."</font>
It comes as no surprise that Otter Creek us without a paddle after Rubel Shelly and others not trained as Bible scholars claim that the Bible has been sifted by time and philosophy so that it no longer has value except as "fragments" to build your own narrative. He and others discounte the 12 apostles and the writings some left as the divisive epistles of divided apostles. This is THE MESSAGE OF JUDAS.
  • <font color=blue>The Gospel of Judas goes even further, showing Jesus in various instances criticizing the other disciples for their ignorance and their followers of immorality. When they present a vision they had to him, he points out the vision's true meaning as follows: "Those you have seen receiving the offerings at the altar . that is who you are. That is the God you serve, and you are those twelve men you have seen. The cattle you have seen brought for sacrifice are the many people you lead astray before that altar. (. . .) will stand and make use of My name in this way, and generations of the pious will remain loyal to Him."</font>
This is ALSO the Judas Gospel of those trained as Prophets, Chanellers and Facilitators to destroy the OLD conservatives.

So, Amy Jill Levine is just flat wrong and is HELPING otter facilitate the move back to JUDAISM which was really CAINITE OR kennite and not OF ISRAEL: JESUS told us so.


People who lived in the shadows of the Apostles understood the outcome of the Gospel of Judas. Therefore, don't be fooled by female GNOSTICS. Paul understood the parabolic message of EVE or ZOE which modern theologians are not permitted to understand.

On the contrary, "early Christians" understood the gospel of Judas to be a product of the sectarians Cainites or Vipers.
  • <font color=blue>Cainites Britannica: member of a Gnostic sect mentioned by Irenaeus and other early Christian writers as flourishing in the 2nd century AD, probably in the EASTERN area of the Roman Empire. The Christian theologian Origen declared that the Cainites had "entirely abandoned Jesus."

    Their reinterpretation of Old Testament texts reflected the view that Yahweh (the God of the Jews) was not merely an inferior demiurge, as many Gnostics believed, but that he was positively evil because his creation of the world was perversely designed to prevent the reunion of the divine element in man with the unknown perfect God.

    The Cainites also reversed biblical values by revering such rejected figures as Cain (whence their name), Esau, and the Sodomites, all of whom were considered to be bearers of an esoteric, saving knowledge (gnosis).

    These biblical persons were said to have been punished by a jealous, irrational creator called Hystera (Womb).

    The Cainites also honoured Eve [ZOE] and Judas Iscariot and had gospels bearing their names. </font>
People who lose faith in that which they are SELLING are dangerous to themselves and to everyone else: they see visions and hear voices and do so things COMMON to all priesthoods.
  • <font color=blue>The Cainites are sometimes called libertine Gnostics for believing that true perfection, and hence salvation,

    comes only by breaking all the laws of the Old Testament.
    The violation of biblical prescriptions was, therefore, a religious duty.

    Because it was difficult to violate all biblical laws during a single lifetime, the Cainites did not look for salvation in the created world but rather escape from it.

    Their subversion of biblical stories allowed them to use Sacred Scripture to support their dualistic view of existence. </font>
Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. I , Book One, Irenaeus. Chapter XXXI.-Doctrines of the Cainites.

http://www.piney.com/FathIrenaHerI.html
  • <font color=blue>1. Others again declare that Cain derived his being from the Power above, and acknowledge that Esau, Korah, the Sodomites, and all such persons, are related to themselves. On this account, they add, they have been assailed by the Creator, yet no one of them has suffered injury.

    For Sophia [Mother of Zoe] was in the habit of carrying off that which belonged to her from them to herself.

    They declare that Judas the traitor was thoroughly acquainted with these things, and that he alone, knowing the truth as no others did, accomplished the mystery of the betrayal; by him all things, both earthly and heavenly, were thus thrown into confusion. They produce a fictitious history of this kind, which they style the Gospel of Judas. </font>
Cain and Abel had different fathers. Cain is from the Hebrew:

What the Bible Says:
  • <font color=blue>I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and
    • the word of God abideth in you, and
      ye have overcome the wicked ONE. 1 Jn.2:14
    In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. 1 Jn. 3:10

    For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. 1 Jn. 3:11

    Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brothers righteous (innocent). 1 John 3:12

    Woe unto them for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. Jude 1:11 </font>
<font color=red>What is the meaning of Cain?</font>
  • <font color=blue>Qayin (h7014) kah'-yin; the same as 7013 (with a play upon the affinity to 7069); Kajin, the name of the first child, also of a place in Pal., and of an Oriental tribe: - Cain, Kenite (-s) </font>
These were the JEWS in Jerusalem who WERE NOT Israelites but Devil worshiping Arabs or Kenites. They continued as THE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN and no early "Christian" ever followed them: they were DENOUNCED and out latter day PhDuhs probably never heard of the Gospel of Judas before they got EXPERTED by the Britannica a decidedly anti-Christian work. Wonder how we have been WARNING against the JUBALS and ZOES and the gospel of Judas for about one decade? The Jubal or Genun son of Lamech story has Satan teaching him how to seduce mankind with music.
  • <font color=blue>Cain: Qanah (h7069) kaw-naw'; a prim. root; to ERECT, i. e. create; by extens. to procure, espec. by purchase (caus. sell); by impl. to own: - attain, buy (-er), teach to keep cattle, get, PROVOKE to jealousy, possess (-or), purchase, recover, redeem, * surely, * verily. </font>
Of course Abel was the Agriculturist and did not give rise to ZOEITE fertility cults. The cattle were ALL free and belonged to everyone. However, the Cainites including Jubal who HANDLES (meaning without authority) musical instruments ALSO stole the cattle and put them in HIS fold. He then SOLD the people's cattle BACK to them. That is EXACTLY what is happening in Zoeland where they prostitute by SELLING you the FREE WATER of the Word and putting you behind fences when Jesus TURNED YOU LOOSE.
  • <font color=blue>Qayin (h7013) kah'-yin; from 6969 in the orig. sense of fixity; a lance (as striking fast): - spear.

    Qiynah (h7015) kee-naw'; from 6969; a dirge (as accompanied by beating the breasts or on instruments): - lamentation. </font>
The Gospel of Judas and the Cainites point directly to REAL or VIRTUAL sodomy as "the holiness of sin."
  • <font color=blue>THUS hath the Lord God shewed unto me: and behold a basket of summer fruit. Amos 8:1

    And he said, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A basket of summer fruit. Then said the Lord unto me, The end is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more. Amos 8:2 </font>
FRUITS have always been FRUITS and GAY has always been GAY: That is why Paul outlawed ANY "mental excitement" when you worship IN THE SPIRIT "because OUTSIDE there be DOGS." A basket:
  • <font color=blue>Keluwb (h3619) kel-oob'; from the same as 3611; a bird-trap (as furnished with a clap-stick or treadle to spring it); hence a basket (as resembling a wicker cage): - basket, cage.
    • As a cage is full of birds, so are their houses full of deceit: therefore they are become great, and waxen rich. Je.5:27

      Keleb (h3611) keh'leb; from an unused root mean. to yelp, or else to attack; a dog; hence (by euphemism) a male prostitute: - dog.

      For dogs have compassed me: the assembly [multitude, swarm] of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. Ps.22:16

      Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter. Is.56:11

      And I will appoint over them four kinds, saith the Lord: the sword to slay, and the dogs to tear, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the earth, to devour and destroy. Je.15:3
    And the songs of the temple shall be howlings in that day, saith the Lord God: there shall be many dead bodies in every place; they shall cast them forth with silence. Amos 8:3
    • Yalal (h323) yaw-lal'; a prim. root; to howl (with a wailing tone) or yell (with a boisterous one): - (make to) howl, be howling.

      This was the loud singing of the DOGS or CYNICS which do "praise songs" one of the oldest superstitions to ATTRACT those to the SEEKER CENTER just like Abaddon and the MUSES who were nasty prostitutes.
    And I will turn your feasts into mourning, and all your SONGS into lamentation; and I will bring up sackcloth upon all loins, and baldness upon every head; and I will make it as the mourning of an only son, and the end thereof as a bitter day. Amos 8:10

    Quwn (h6969) koon; a prim. root; to strike a musical note, i. e. chant or wail (at a funeral): - lament, mourning woman.

    Thus saith the Lord of hosts, Consider ye, and call for the mourning women, that they may come; and send for cunning women, that they may come: Je.9:17</font>
When the Musical Minstrels came to do their music FOR or WITH dead ancestors just as in Amos, Jesus CAST THEM OUT more or less violently like one EJECTS dung. That was because to say flute-girl was to say prostitute and the male HARP PLUCKERS (Psallo) were always trying to PLUCK young "ministers of the gods."

The SIX DAYS are over and the SABBATH will begin shortly but first God sends the MUSES or LOCUSTS to "drive away" those marked with the word at Baptism and to COLLECT those marked with the MUSIC mark of CAIN or the Cainites whom your femist, Jewish, pro-abortionist NOT-LITERATE lady is going try to use to deceive you into JUDASIM: you are just about there.

Judas is that WICKED ONE and the SON OF PERDITION: The Judas Bas was for "carrying the MOUTH PIECES OF WIND INSTRUMENTS." The images on many Greek vases shows the bag always attached to the flute case and the ACTORS UP are drunk and perverted.
Last edited by Donnie.Cruz on September 3rd, 2006, 11:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Another OC Member
Another OC Member

September 4th, 2006, 3:32 am #19

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>Hello, Another—

Thank you for the response.

Would you explain the following statement regarding instrumental music?
  • “Not in the Sunday morning assembly. On Sunday nights and Wednesday nights? Yes. This is primarily out of devotion to our heritage in the Church of Christ, not because of some determination of sinfulness within the practice.”
What exactly is “primarily out of devotion to our heritage in the Church of Christ”? I really don’t understand the way you expressed “our heritage.” I also take it that the elders have determined for the church that there is no sinfulness in the practice of using instruments in the gathering on Sunday nights and Wednesday nights, but that there is so in the Sunday morning assembly?

Is the practice to use musical instruments in the night assemblies going to be the same practice in the Sunday morning assembly sometime soon? How long has IM been in use at OC? You may have heard of what happened at OH [Oak Hills] in San Antonio, TX. The elders of the church there approved the use of IM in one of its smaller worship assemblies, but not long after that, IM became the full-blown “norm” in all of its services.

Will you keep us updated if or when IM begins participating in the Sunday A.M. assembly?

When there is a strong leader whose alignment is with the Change or pseudo- or half-baked Charismatic Movement, such as Tim Woodroof of O.C. or Max Lucado of O.H., conservative members of the church become concerned.

Would you let us know where the ministers and elders stand on the purpose of baptism—is it “because one has believed and his sins already forgiven” or is it “in order to receive forgiveness in His blood"? I mentioned this in my initial post.

There are really more questions.

Perhaps you can tell us what other changes there are in doctrine, teachings and beliefs espoused by the ministers and elders at OC—when compared to what has been learned and taught for ages from the Holy Scripture.

In your opinion, does OC resemble a typical congregation in the brotherhood or does it resemble a Community Church—if you know of one or have been affiliated with one at all?

Donnie</font>
Donnie, you asked

Would you explain the following statement regarding instrumental music?
  • “Not in the Sunday morning assembly. On Sunday nights and Wednesday nights? Yes. This is primarily out of devotion to our heritage in the Church of Christ, not because of some determination of sinfulness within the practice.”
What exactly is “primarily out of devotion to our heritage in the Church of Christ”? I really don’t understand the way you expressed “our heritage.” I also take it that the elders have determined for the church that there is no sinfulness in the practice of using instruments in the gathering on Sunday nights and Wednesday nights, but that there is so in the Sunday morning assembly?

Let's put it like this. The OC elders have determined through study of Scripture that there is nothing sinful in using instruments in worship. However, there are people who attend at OC who find it uncomfortable. Out of respect to that and to the heritage we have in the Churches of Christ, we do not use them on Sunday mornings.

You also said

Is the practice to use musical instruments in the night assemblies going to be the same practice in the Sunday morning assembly sometime soon? How long has IM been in use at OC? You may have heard of what happened at OH [Oak Hills] in San Antonio, TX. The elders of the church there approved the use of IM in one of its smaller worship assemblies, but not long after that, IM became the full-blown “norm” in all of its services.

Will you keep us updated if or when IM begins participating in the Sunday A.M. assembly?

When there is a strong leader whose alignment is with the Change or pseudo- or half-baked Charismatic Movement, such as Tim Woodroof of O.C. or Max Lucado of O.H., conservative members of the church become concerned.


IM has been in use at OC in one form or another for years, but never on Sunday mornings. I doubt it ever will, but I welcome the day when such things are no longer an issue.

Would you let us know where the ministers and elders stand on the purpose of baptism—is it “because one has believed and his sins already forgiven” or is it “in order to receive forgiveness in His blood"? I mentioned this in my initial post.

I'm pretty sure it's the former rather than the latter. That was given in the What we Believe about Baptism sermon.

Perhaps you can tell us what other changes there are in doctrine, teachings and beliefs espoused by the ministers and elders at OC—when compared to what has been learned and taught for ages from the Holy Scripture.

Most, if not all, members at OC would contend that what happens there is completely Scriptural.

In your opinion, does OC resemble a typical congregation in the brotherhood or does it resemble a Community Church—if you know of one or have been affiliated with one at all?

I've never attended another Church of Christ other than OC, so I cannot answer that question with any authority.

++++++++++++++++++
<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>FYI: Editing of source code did not change the text of the above post</font>
Last edited by Donnie.Cruz on September 4th, 2006, 4:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

September 4th, 2006, 5:16 pm #20

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>I have just re-visited Otter Creek’s new-formatted website:
Its story: “…while our heritage is in God and His Son, our history is one of a community congregation that welcomes all comers and seeks opportunities to serve and comfort in His name.” [emph. d.c.]

Its mission: “The Otter Creek Church is a Christ-led, Spirit-powered, Grace-motivated family of believers. Our mission is to:
  • reach up through worship and holy living
  • reach in by fostering community and maturity
  • reach out through service, witness and influence
God is changing the world through us as we become Christ’s presence in this place.”

Its faith: “In a religious world where there is so much variety and divergence, it’s important for a community of faith to be open about what they believe. It is in the spirit of that openness that Otter Creek points to the following matters as important & central to its faith. These matters are the core of us, and though our convictions extend beyond what we mention here, these beliefs are what we consider to be necessary for fellowship in Jesus.

“You won’t find anything strange or out of line with the beliefs of most Christians. We provide this statement of faith, not to explain how we are distinct from everybody around us, but to testify that we have a great deal in common with all those who claim Jesus as Lord and who take the Bible seriously.”

Some of the itemized statements no longer consider baptism as a necessary or the ultimate step in the conversion process—or at least … are inconsistent or contradictory. Notice:
  • “Salvation is by God’s grace, through Christ’s cross, and a result of the Spirit’s active work. It is received through faith. It is sealed in confession and baptism. It is demonstrated in a life lived under the lordship of Jesus.
  • “There is one Church. She is the community of people who have trusted in Jesus to make them right with God and to send the Holy Spirit to make them more like God. The church is a “commissioned people,” partnering with God to accomplish His purposes in this world.
  • “God has given His church special ways in which we can draw close to Him personally and enjoy His blessings. These include baptism [sounds like an after-the-fact … in the church], prayer, worship, preaching, the Supper, Bible study, spiritual gifts, fasting, and relationship with each other and Himself.”
Its leaders: The names of 15 elders are listed. The list is a portion of a page with no pictures, no contact information, etc.—in comparison to pages of info on the admin staff and ministers both men and women.

Whereas Tim Woodroof, “functions as our ‘Senior Minister,’ coordinating the ministry team, working directly with the elders, and being a spokesman for the church

Its other activities: In the TGIW (Thank God it’s Wednesday) section, we read:
  • That’s right; Wednesday nights do count at Otter Creek! We’re not saying you have to attend church on Wednesday in order to please God or get your “ticket punched.” What we are saying is during the summer months of June, July and August, a gifted mix of speakers, authors, musicians, and actors will join us on Wednesday evenings @ 7pm to inspire and challenge. You may just find yourself saying, “Thank God it’s Wednesday!
Musicians! “Join us for a wonderful musical experience” with Phil Keaggy in concert—that was on August 23. Some of the other activities scheduled … and the women speakers:
  • JUNE 7 -- Beyond the DaVinci Code: The Real Story of Jesus & Women
    Dr. Amy Jill Levine
  • JUNE 14 -- How the Trinity Keeps the Christian Life on Track
    [Wasn’t the “direct influence” of God’s Spirit upon the Christian or the church taught? Hmmm! dc]
    Dr. Leonard Allen
  • JUNE 28 -- FX! A Family Worship Experience [What “worship” experience?]
  • AUGUST 9 -- Vespers with a message from Kathleen Flood on
    "Why Sabbath?"
Is this the Otter Creek [Community] Church?

Donnie</font>
The ONLY authority Elders have is to "Teach that which has been taught" and to "refute those who oppose it." You obey by heeding the WORD which he alone has authority to SPEAK and you WATCH the outcome of his life.

That means that YOU have the authority and the GOD GIVEN DUTY to cast out the elders and all of the STAFF INFECTION who have NO role to play in a "school of the Bible" or ekklesia. If there is ANY testesterone from the hostile take over of the Mother of the Gods just as prophesied in Revelation, you WILL eject them like Jesus ejected the Musical Minstrels LIKE DUNG using the same "musical word" of God Casting Lucifer out as PROFANE out of Heaven. You have the approved example and the direct command. From now on the terminal sin rests on YOUR heads.
  • <font color=red>Let's put it like this. The OC elders have determined through study of Scripture that there is nothing sinful in using instruments in worship. However, there are people who attend at OC who find it uncomfortable. Out of respect to that and to the heritage we have in the Churches of Christ, we do not use them on Sunday mornings.</font>
Why would ELDERS deliberately offend the OWNERS even by having a Sunday evening PAGAN worship service when churches which DO NOT use music grow at the same rate?

Why would anyone be so Biblically and historically ignorant and use the RACA word HERITAGE or TRADITION? That declares that ALL of church history was ignorant traditionalism and only in these latter days has voodoo and the Rock "F" word found its way into "churches?" That implies rank ignorance but the TRUTH is that the misleaders will find NO positive use of music in the Bible, the church theologians and founders of denominations. That PRETENDS that ALL of the Bible, contemporaneous literature such as the Babylonian Tablets, Book of Enoch, and ALL classical Greek literature DOES not prove that MUSIC was used by prostitute and sodomite RELIGIONS to "blow the flute to fleece the fat heads and simpletons?"

Then the elders have TRUMPED the Bible from Genesis to Revelation! They have missed that ALL of the musical episodes speak of people telling God WE WILL NOT LISTEN TO YOUR WORD. It always means that the MISleaders are taking the money of the poor so they can ENJOY being demagogues and the RESULT is that people hunger and thirst for the Word of God and in the end they are led into captivity to the BEAT of musical instruments. Isaiah 30 proves that HELL or Topheth, Solomon's music grove which became a symbol of hell, is specificially prepared for the MUSICAL misleaders and the fools who are mislead. God beats them into hell using wind, percussion and stringed instruments which are what Lucifer-Zoe came equipped with to SEDUCE both Adam and Eve in a sexual sense: sure, bisexual.

Here is one part of my review of Farmer's Branch White Lies about every musical term and name of a musical instrument, all of which point to Lucifer as the SOURCE, to warrior, to slaughterers of innocent animals (added as a CURSE), to prostitutes and Sodomites. They pass on bad diseases and the plagues in Revelation have a familiar ring.
Elders have no trouble endorsing the lies of the MISleader for fear of being "negative." Furthermore when the elders VOTE it is usually taken by the opposers sworn NOT to object or as at Oak Hills after the faithful elders and a large body of the OWNERS have left. That is THE ONLY WAY you can get an "agreement." Therefore, I am certain that the statement is red CANNOT be the whole truth.

They HAVE NOT determined through study of Scripture that there is nothing sinful in using instruments in worship." That is the same DITTO HEAD in the Farmer's Branch White Paper full of Black lies used as the new Gospel of Judas the Goat. Why then is Lucifer (Zoe) defined by the BIBLE which your PhDuhs haven't read the "singing and harp playing prostitute in the garden of Eden?" Anyone who can make that statement is simply rubber stamping the pastor person who has NOT authority and is robbing people in order to mislead them when he DELIBERATELY distorts what no one prior to the year 1878 ever doubted about the word PSALLO.

Max Lucado got a VISION and twisted some elder's heads and drove away many "owners" that they should take CHRIST off their sign and ADD instrumental music: at first quiet strings in another room. But, we knew that was a lie didn't we? Max got his VISION from the Farmer's Branch pack of lies almost word for word. Rick Atchley thinks the same way.
  • <font color=red>Chris Seidman and The Greek words translated make music and psalms, "psallo" and "psalmos", respectively, had in secular Greek the meanings to pluck, pull, twitch; then to play a stringed instrument (psallo); and twitching or twanging, the sound of a harp (psalmos)</font>
The word for music is
  • <font color=blue>Sumphôn-os , on, A. agreeing in sound, harmonious, Ar.Av.221 (anap.), 659 (anap.); Chordai h.Merc. 51 ; melos S.Ichn.319 ; echoing to cries, Id.OT421; of a musical accompanist,</font>
It is used in Luke 15 and MUSIC always includes DANCING and more. The MUSIC word is NEVER used of Christian assembly. This word points to the male symposium where MOVING TOGETHER had a vile meaning. The flute-girls and male harpists were prostitutes. WHEN they wanted to dialog something they "voted to send out the flute-girl" because the word "don't get drunk on wine" is used to mean DON'T get PIPED or FLUTED DOWN with wine.
Raised HAND CLAPPING is called TABERING so your boys are doing it all according to the historical and prophesied PATTERNISM.

The CRAFTSMEN connected with the singers and instrument players UNDER the Babylon Whore end-time worship is the Greek:
  • <font color=blue>Technê I. art, skill, craft in work, cunning of hand , esp. of metal-working, Od.; of a shipwright, Il.; of a soothsayer

    2. art, craft, cunning, in bad sense, doliê t. Od.; in pl. arts, wiles, cunning devices, </font>
All Greek was SECULAR GREEK. The ATTIC Greek included plucking a harp string but the KOINE for the common people had eleminated it because it was UNIVERSALLY associated with driving the enemy into panic or the musical male and female prostitutes.

Apollo or Abaddon was the "Father of twanging bowstrings to send a singing arrow into the litera heart" or with his lyre he plucked LOVE ARROWS. He was also the father of thieves and liars. And Peter warns corrupters of the word that they are ADULTERERS and thieves because they PEDDLE TRUTH AT RETAIL.

The word PSALLO is not a musical term. One "plucks" a bowstring and makes a "singing noise." Or one yanks out a hair from an enemy's head and it "twangs." Or, most often in the Hebrew, one TOUCHES or mishandles someone in a sexual way. Jubal HANDLED musical instruments meaning WITHOUT AUTHORITY.

The word ODE further defines PSALMOS as "in the form of Hebrew cantillation." Therefore, when Jesus SPOKE and Paul commanded SPEAK in the external sense then you your PhDuhs have sheep skins still bleeding from fleeced lambs.

Grasp that ALL of the instrumental Psalms were Warrior Panic Chants because the Levites (only) were under the KING and COMMANDERS OF THE ARMY and praised the king by pretending to praise God.

<font color=blue>WEB Psalm LX. For the Chief Musician. To the tune of "The Lily of the Covenant." A teaching poem by David, when he fought with Aram Naharaim and with Aram Zobah, and Joab returned, and killed twelve thousand of Edom in the Valley of Salt.

LX. in finem in hymnis David [2] exaudi Deus deprecationem meam intende orationi meae [3] a finibus terrae ad te clamavi dum anxiaretur cor meum in petra exaltasti me deduxisti me
  • Oratio I. a speaking, speech, discourse, language In gen., the connection of words to express thought: II. In particular, formal language, artificial discourse, set speech (OPPOSITE to sermo, ordinary speech, conversational language): E. A prayer, an address to the Deity
</font>Chris Seidman was imported to teach RHETORIC and rhetoricians are classed as HYPOCRITES because the GIVE POWER to the Word of God by charismatic and legalistic help.

SPEAK can never meant SING. A SONG is not musical
  • <font color=blue>Ode (g5603) o-day'; from 103; a chant or "ode" the gen. term for any words sung; while 5215 denotes espec. a religious metrical composition, and 5568 still more spec. a Heb. cantillation): - song.

    Ep.5:19 SPEAKING to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody IN your HEART to the Lord;</font>
<font color=blue>Eph 5: [19]WEB loquentes vobismet ipsis in psalmis et hymnis et canticis spiritalibus cantantes et psallentes in cordibus vestris Domino </font>

<font color=blue>Your misleader is an ORATOR praising himself: this is opposite to the SPEAKING of the Latin SERMO and the SPEAKING in the assembly (synagogue not worship center)
  • Loquor 1. [Sanscr. lap-, to talk, whisper;, to speak, talk, say (in the lang. of common life, in the tone of conversation;

    A. To speak, declare, show, indicate or express clearly

    Logik-os, ( [logos] )A. of or for speaking or speech, merê l. the organs of speech, Plu.Cor.38: logikê, hê, speech, OPPOSITE to mousikê,
</font>Even if the misleaders translate the word SPEAK meaning to SING in the arousal sense Paul outlawed, the definition of words means THE OPPOSITE OF MUSIC. Now, when you use "pretty speech" and MUSIC you wind up SO IGNORANT that you cannot understand simple words like SPEAK.

The MUSES in Revelation 18 includes speakers, singers, musicians and more: these are defined by Jesus as the SECTARIAN HYPOCRITES. The MOUTH worshipers are defined in Isaiah and in Ezekiel 33 (didn't have that when they got THEIR PhDuhs?) as speakers, singers and instrument players. They are the LOCUSTS or musical worship team under Apollo or Abaddon or Apollyon: John used these legends so we FOOLS cannot get FOOLED by people making merchandise of us: speakers, singers and musicians:
  • <font color=blue>Mousa I. the Muse, in pl. the Muses, goddesses of song, music, poetry, dancing, the drama, and all fine arts, Hom.: the names of the nine were Clio, Euterpe, Thalia, Melpomene, Terpsichore, Erato, Polymnia or Polyhymnia, Urania, and Calliope, Hes.,

    Musica mousikê, the art of music, music; acc. to the notions of the ancients, comic and dramatic poetry, temporibus tantum

    Same as: Magice- , e-s, f., = magikê (sc. technê), the magic art, magic, sorcery medicinam [dico magicenque, magices factio

    Same as exegetice, es, f., = exêgêtikê, the art of interpretation, Outlawed by Peter.</font>
Apollo or the Having-fallen angel misleader is defined as:
  • <font color=blue>dêmagôgeô, to be a leader of the people, ; têi men exousiai turannôn, tais d' euergesiais dêmagôgôn Id.10.37 ; cf. dêmagôgei: stratêgei,
    • turanneuô: to be a turannos, an absolute sovereign or despot, and in aor. to become such, Hdt., etc.: to be a prince or princess,
    The dêmagôgeô continued: andras curry favour with, X.An.7.6.4 , cf. Arist.Pol. 1305b26, al.:--Pass., to be won over, conciliated by popular arts, J.AJ 16.2.5. </font>
See Josephus' description of Judas and Agrippa's SEEKER CENTER.
These people will be CONSUMED by worms or maggots just like the king/queen of Babylon who rotted on a bed of maggots with his/her HARPS and buried alive HARPISTS: I have pictures.

HOUSTON! Apollo and the MUSES (Sorcerers) have LANDED.
Last edited by Donnie.Cruz on September 4th, 2006, 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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