Once Saved, Always Saved?

Once Saved, Always Saved?

Joined: March 13th, 2002, 6:27 am

April 2nd, 2002, 9:47 pm #1

I'm really trying to understand "salvation issues". When one talks of something not being a "salvation issue", are they really saying that once you are saved you are always saved and everything else doesn't really matter? Are they saying that God's grace will cover all errors in doctrine?

Please help me understand.

Prayerfully Onward,

Kevin
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CW
CW

April 2nd, 2002, 9:57 pm #2

Here we go...off in another direction.

You can walk away from God, but - but this is important - no scripture says that not having deacons = turning your back on God.

Kevin, find me a scripture that says that unless a church has deacons, they have fallen away. Deacons are not part of the Gospel. Likewise, find me one that says that if they choose to clap or have instruments in worship, they have fallen away. It just doesn't say that, and you keep avoiding that issue. Dig deep - really think about it.
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Joined: March 13th, 2002, 6:27 am

April 2nd, 2002, 11:11 pm #3

I am trying to understand what you mean by "salvation issues". I have asked you to define what they are to you and I have only received responses about what they are not. Can you tell me what "salvation issues" are?

From the scriptures that literal seed put forth and by your response to them, I was under the impression that you were referring to "once saved, always saved". If this is not the case, then enlighten me.

Prayerfully Onward,

Kevin
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Chai Voraritskul
Chai Voraritskul

April 3rd, 2002, 2:21 am #4

I'm really trying to understand "salvation issues". When one talks of something not being a "salvation issue", are they really saying that once you are saved you are always saved and everything else doesn't really matter? Are they saying that God's grace will cover all errors in doctrine?

Please help me understand.

Prayerfully Onward,

Kevin
Kevin, your have raised two very important questions, and they are worthy of prayerful consideration by all believers. What are the salvation issues? Obviously salvation issues could be different for each believer based on one’s understanding and theology. What do you consider to be your own personal salvation issues? Any one? Let’s hear it. Are all issues equal in their importance to you? Not all sins lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death (1John 5: 16, 17). Is there any connection here?

Is once saved always saved? This is an old theological issue between the Baptists and CoC. Could we have some input? Thanks for bringing up these vital questions, Kevin. I would love to hear a variety of responses myself.

Chai Voraritskul 4/2/2002
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CW
CW

April 3rd, 2002, 3:24 am #5

I am trying to understand what you mean by "salvation issues". I have asked you to define what they are to you and I have only received responses about what they are not. Can you tell me what "salvation issues" are?

From the scriptures that literal seed put forth and by your response to them, I was under the impression that you were referring to "once saved, always saved". If this is not the case, then enlighten me.

Prayerfully Onward,

Kevin
...not sure where you got that I was referring to OSAS. There is no condemantion for those who are in Christ Jesus. It's the "being in" part that gets us all arguing.
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Joined: March 13th, 2002, 6:27 am

April 3rd, 2002, 5:25 am #6

Kevin, your have raised two very important questions, and they are worthy of prayerful consideration by all believers. What are the salvation issues? Obviously salvation issues could be different for each believer based on one’s understanding and theology. What do you consider to be your own personal salvation issues? Any one? Let’s hear it. Are all issues equal in their importance to you? Not all sins lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death (1John 5: 16, 17). Is there any connection here?

Is once saved always saved? This is an old theological issue between the Baptists and CoC. Could we have some input? Thanks for bringing up these vital questions, Kevin. I would love to hear a variety of responses myself.

Chai Voraritskul 4/2/2002
"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." (Matthew 24:11-13)

"But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for [him], and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers." (Luke 12:45-46)

"A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.

And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.

And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it.

And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?

And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of [this] life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep [it], and bring forth fruit with patience." (Luke 8:5-15)

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain." (1 Cor 15:1-2)

"Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil." (1 Tim 3:6)

"For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;" (Hebrews 3:14)

"Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." (James 5:19-20)

"For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them." (2 Peter 2:20-21)

"And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book." (Revelation 22:19)

"Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some [is]; but exhorting [one another]: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

[It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (Hebrews 10:25-31)

"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all." (James 2:10)

Prayerfully Onward,

Kevin
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literal seed
literal seed

April 3rd, 2002, 8:24 am #7

Kevin, thank you for continuing in the Word for clarification by study. It is the means to salvation through understanding for those who will take the time and and expend the effort.

I'll try to respond by paragraph for simplicity sake.

1) This entire chapter answers end time occurences. The focus is "endure with love" until the end. (LOVE=sharing the message and evidence of His love)

2) Check out Luke 12 in its entirety...speaks about being at the Master's work...once again sharing the message and evidence of LOVE.

3) Luke 8 entire chapter...the message is share the Word unitl it bears fruit in your life and in the lives of those who accept it...it's not the preacher, evangelist or missionary's job...it is the job of the saint! The others' job is to equip the saint to reach the lost...Eph 4 entire chapter.

4) 1 Cor speaks of core beliefs in Christ...the concern was over those that questioned Jesus resurection...no empty tomb? Get real! Without it we live a lie.

5) Elder qualifications? 1Tim 3...I'm done!

Got to stop...it's evident that taking small portions out of context is of little use to me in trying to understand your case. What I have gleaned is the ever present need for all believers to share their faith on a regular basis...prepared to bring those who respond to become fruit bearers also. If our focus remains in this, I don't see much difficulty in reaching heaven.

Dispatched to heaven by way of Sacrifice
ls

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CW
CW

April 3rd, 2002, 4:19 pm #8

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. (Mat 7:21 NIV)

Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' (Mat 7:22 NIV)

Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' (Mat 7:23 NIV)

"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and PUTS THEM INTO PRACTICE is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. (Mat 7:24 NIV)

The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. (Mat 7:25 NIV)

But everyone who hears these words of mine and DOES NOT put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. (Mat 7:26 NIV)

The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash." (Mat 7:27 NIV)


Transformation of our lives is what Jesus expects, not just "Hey I'm in for life - where's the party this weekend?".




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literal seed
literal seed

April 3rd, 2002, 7:11 pm #9

CW..I can't agree more! Let's have a look at the rest of the chapter though.


1 "Don't judge other people, or you will be judged. 2 You will be judged in the same way that you judge others, and the amount you give to others will be given to you. 3 "Why do you notice the little piece of dust in your friend's eye, but you don't notice the big piece of wood in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your friend, 'Let me take that little piece of dust out of your eye'? Look at yourself! You still have that big piece of wood in your own eye. 5 You hypocrite! First, take the wood out of your own eye. Then you will see clearly to take the dust out of your friend's eye. 6 "Don't give holy things to dogs, and don't throw your pearls before pigs. Pigs will only trample on them, and dogs will turn to attack you.

7 "Ask, and God will give to you. Search, and you will find. Knock, and the door will open for you. 8 Yes, everyone who asks will receive. Everyone who searches will find. And everyone who knocks will have the door opened. 9 "If your children ask for bread, which of you would give them a stone? 10 Or if your children ask for a fish, would you give them a snake? 11 Even though you are bad, you know how to give good gifts to your children. How much more your heavenly Father will give good things to those who ask him!

12 "Do to others what you want them to do to you. This is the meaning of the law of Moses and the teaching of the prophets. 13 "Enter through the narrow gate. The gate is wide and the road is wide that leads to hell, and many people enter through that gate. 14 But the gate is small and the road is narrow that leads to true life. Only a few people find that road.

15 "Be careful of false prophets. They come to you looking gentle like sheep, but they are really dangerous like wolves. 16 You will know these people by what they do. Grapes don't come from thornbushes, and figs don't come from thorny weeds. 17 In the same way, every good tree produces good fruit, but a bad tree produces bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot produce good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not produce good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 In the same way, you will know these false prophets by what they do.


Notice the verses immediately prior where you began to quote...15 through 20. True transformation has everything to do with bearing fruit...good fruit. Focus on fruit...He will take care of the rest.

blessings and thanks for the lesson

ls
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Joe McKnight
Joe McKnight

April 4th, 2002, 3:37 am #10

"And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." (Matthew 24:11-13)

"But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for [him], and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers." (Luke 12:45-46)

"A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.

And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.

And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it.

And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be?

And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.

Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of [this] life, and bring no fruit to perfection.

But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep [it], and bring forth fruit with patience." (Luke 8:5-15)

"Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain." (1 Cor 15:1-2)

"Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil." (1 Tim 3:6)

"For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;" (Hebrews 3:14)

"Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." (James 5:19-20)

"For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known [it], to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them." (2 Peter 2:20-21)

"And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book." (Revelation 22:19)

"Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some [is]; but exhorting [one another]: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

For we know him that hath said, Vengeance [belongeth] unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

[It is] a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." (Hebrews 10:25-31)

"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all." (James 2:10)

Prayerfully Onward,

Kevin
Brother Kevin:
This is a tough one, and a life of coC teaching makes it even tougher. You can use scriptures to argue both sides of this one, but keep one thing in mind when pondering this subject. There is only one way to God and that is through Jesus, Jesus paid it all because He was the only payment possible. In Galatians Paul is addressing the issue of going back under the Law to please God. Chapter two & three of your KJV covers it very well that it is all Jesus. We are justified by the faith of Christ, not our works. Nothing we can do will save us, it is all Jesus. I have wrote before about being the bride of Christ, that means He: our Husband, is responsible for His wife: us. Numbers 30 tell us the a law/type of the responsibility of a husband over his wife. If she makes a vow it is up to the husband to validate it or not. Deut. 24 it was the husband option to write a divorcement if he found uncleanness in her, not the wife or the father in-law.
We are the betroth bride of Christ (we become the bride of Christ after the tribulation, while the world is getting 7 vials of wrath, we are getting our sins burned off.) God had the prophet Hosea take a wife of whoredom (Gomer)to show the children of Israel how they were acting with their idols, yet God kept buying them back. The main things are: 1. Love God/Jesus with all your heart, soul, and mind. 2. Confess and repent of sins, Jesus took care of the sin issue. 3. Be a lover of the Truth: II Thess. 2:10-12. 4.The most important is not to frustrate the Grace of God (the Holy Spirit). It is the Holy Spirit that Keeps us in Christ till He comes to get us, but it is our right (as free will, sovereign kings) as to whom we give permission to work in our lives. We can, shut down the Holy Spirit's influence in our life.
I have given you enough to ponder for now, but once you get a hold of this, see if you don't get mad at what has been stolen from you by Hirelings. (I just had to bring it up, Didn't I)

To God be the Glory
Joe McKnight

P.S. Next time we'll talk about the New Creature that we are by marital inheritance. This is real good stuff.
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