NOT Using Musical Instruments in the Assembly: Is It a Human Tradition?

Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

May 8th, 2011, 4:31 pm #41

It may be asking too much for people who have been patterned by sermons as opposed to the text and singing songs calculated to turn you into to women to understand.,

I know of no scholar or preacher who can read the black text on white paper and NOT see what they have always been taught:



Maybe someone would like to twist that?
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Dave
Dave

May 9th, 2011, 2:23 am #42

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]This thread is being addressed to IM lovers. I am thinking specifically of Dave who has constantly endorsed and defended the use of musical devices in the assembly of saints. [BTW, Dave, will you allow me to reveal to CM readers your last name? I do not recall you ever mentioning your last name here as you did at the other site (which I would not label as "evil"). I think that you mentioned your last name briefly at the other site only when you challenged Mike to a debate. I could say more about that challenge, etc., but that's really not about this thread. And you edited it out shortly after.]

In many of our discussions with you regarding IM, you never fail to mention that "not using" musical instruments in the gathering of saints is a human or man-made tradition in the church. [By now I hope that you are convinced that "in the church" means "in the church of Christ" that you claim to be a member of.]

Whenever I mention to you that the worship of "the Virgin Mary, Mother of God" is a good example of man-made traditions, you immediately dismiss it in defense of IM as being commanded and authorized by God, as well as being pleasing to Him.

We have just heard of the beatification of the RCC pope John Paul II. (There are so many doctrinal errors in Roman Catholicism. I strongly believe that based on what the Holy Scripture teaches. What about you? Anyway, when time allows, there will be a lot of discussions in the future regarding these errors.)

Just to name a few from a long list of Catholic heresies and "human traditions," here they are:[/color]
  • Prayers for the dead
    </li>
  • Wax candles introduced in church in the 4th century
    </li>
  • Veneration of angels and dead saints
    </li>
  • Worship of Mary, "Mother of God"
    </li>
  • Prayers directed to Mary or dead saints
    </li>
  • Extreme Unction
    </li>
  • Doctrine of Purgatory in the 6th century
    </li>
  • Worship of the cross, images and relics
    </li>
  • Canonization of dead saints
    </li>
  • ... and so many, many more
    </li>
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]It is apparent that the Roman Catholic Church has evolved through the centuries because of the evolution of these man-made traditions. Unlike in the very early centuries, the church that Christ established in about 33AD does not now resemble at all the ever-evolving Roman Catholic Church.

My point is that man-made traditions, including the ones listed above, which were of PAGAN origins, are matters that man-made tradition believers do and observe, instead of what these believers DO NOT DO NOR OBSERVE.

Do you see my point? How can you assert that by "NOT DOING, NOT OBSERVING, something," it is a tradition?

Instead, using musical instruments in the assembly of saints is THE man-made tradition. Recorded history reveals it.[/color]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Let us discuss civilly, please. No name-calling, no grammatical concerns, no personal attacks, no hostile remarks. Thanks!
Donnie, the last response by YOUR brother shows why not many will not even attempt to give a response here at concerned. I also have realized a long time ago that is pretty much the way you guys want it here. You like it without rebuttal. If you get rebuttal, and it sounds like it may be resemble the Truth, you ignore it or become hostile. You like telling them what they REALLY said, or what you want them to say. The Jewish Pharisees and Saducees were the same. They didn't want anyone rocking their boat or questioning their beliefs with some so-called Truth, even if it was by the Son of God. As long as they could buy their way to heaven with their tithing, praying in public, and having those flogged anyone who opposed them, then they were most content. I know it is hard for you three to believe, but Jesus infuriated these Jewish leaders at every turn. Jesus didn't want to play their games, just as many that have come here to concerned tire quickly of the cloak and dagger games that you men present. Just because you don't like someone rocking your boat. Jesus changed it all from ceremonial to spiritual. Other than not being Jews, you three still represent the Pharisees well today. Just like you, the Pharisees didn't care for the Truth. You want what you want, instead of what God would have.
Well.....have at it.
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Sonny
Sonny

May 9th, 2011, 2:49 am #43

Dave, what's that voodoo chant you use against us that really marks you as a radical, self-righteous fanatic? Oh yeah, it's "You are cursed!" ZOWIE! That "do" have a ring to it!

Say that again, really put some ZING into it, and entertain us some more. Only do it with special effects. Let's see, we would need an echo chamber and a device that would transform your voice into a really DEEP, double bass. Then you could SHINE and come out with:

YOU (you you)...ARE (are are)...CUUURRRSSSSSSSEDUH (duh duh)!!!

A fierce, demonic "growl" with some smoke and flames added would put the icing on the cake.

Would that suit you, Dave? So come on! Do it again for us and really entertain us with that voodoo hoodoo that you do!
Brother Crump,

Please accept this in love and concern. I humbly suggest that your public remarks are foul and out of place. The Lord's church is sacred and we as members of the church are to use speech that is holy and edifying. Ephesians 5:3-4 reads, "But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. Nor should there be obscenity, FOOLISH TALK OR COARSE JOKING, which are OUT OF PLACE, but rather thanksgiving." Likewise, Ephesians 4:29 states, "Do not let ANY UNWHOLESOME TALK come out of your mouths, but ONLY WHAT IS HELPFUL FOR BUILDING UP OTHERS according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen."

-Sonny
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

May 9th, 2011, 8:29 am #44

Donnie, the last response by YOUR brother shows why not many will not even attempt to give a response here at concerned. I also have realized a long time ago that is pretty much the way you guys want it here. You like it without rebuttal. If you get rebuttal, and it sounds like it may be resemble the Truth, you ignore it or become hostile. You like telling them what they REALLY said, or what you want them to say. The Jewish Pharisees and Saducees were the same. They didn't want anyone rocking their boat or questioning their beliefs with some so-called Truth, even if it was by the Son of God. As long as they could buy their way to heaven with their tithing, praying in public, and having those flogged anyone who opposed them, then they were most content. I know it is hard for you three to believe, but Jesus infuriated these Jewish leaders at every turn. Jesus didn't want to play their games, just as many that have come here to concerned tire quickly of the cloak and dagger games that you men present. Just because you don't like someone rocking your boat. Jesus changed it all from ceremonial to spiritual. Other than not being Jews, you three still represent the Pharisees well today. Just like you, the Pharisees didn't care for the Truth. You want what you want, instead of what God would have.
Well.....have at it.
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]I was very seriously and sincerely asking you those questions for clarification. You'd been accusing me of misquoting your stance on using musical instruments in the assembly of saints.

You'd gone so far as calling me a liar and as a result, sinning, sinning "against the Lord's church" and in need of repentance; cursed; etc. -- strongly suggesting that YOU were/are not any of the above.

You may be correct that after all the messages you've posted, I have misunderstood your viewpoints--maybe one or two or possibly all of your opinions. That's why I have broken down my questions so that I may know exactly where I have misunderstood you. Let me point out--and I believe it's common knowledge--that when Peter misunderstands Paul, it doesn't mean that Peter is a liar, or vice versa. It is only a misunderstanding; it is not lying.

It is possible that I have misunderstood your viewpoints. So, I need you to help me out here. If you need to qualify your choice of YES or NO, please do not hesitate to explain in detail if needed. You can straighten me out with a simple YES [it is truth] or NO [it is a lie] to each of the following:

[YES/NO] ____ when YOU said that God approves/authorizes IM;
[YES/NO] ____ when YOU said that God is pleased with musical devices in praise;
[YES/NO] ____ when YOU said that we emulate David for playing instruments;
[YES/NO] ____ when YOU said that PA equates with IM, therefore, both are OK;
[YES/NO] ____ when YOU said that "a cappella" is only a tradition. [/color]
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

May 9th, 2011, 1:10 pm #45

Brother Crump,

Please accept this in love and concern. I humbly suggest that your public remarks are foul and out of place. The Lord's church is sacred and we as members of the church are to use speech that is holy and edifying. Ephesians 5:3-4 reads, "But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. Nor should there be obscenity, FOOLISH TALK OR COARSE JOKING, which are OUT OF PLACE, but rather thanksgiving." Likewise, Ephesians 4:29 states, "Do not let ANY UNWHOLESOME TALK come out of your mouths, but ONLY WHAT IS HELPFUL FOR BUILDING UP OTHERS according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen."

-Sonny
Sonny, a "Christian" does anything BUT build up and edify others when he hurls hateful words such as "You are cursed!" and "You don't love the Lord's church" because others do not agree with him. A "Christian" who claims to love the Lord's church yet persistently posts hateful messages against those with whom he disagrees is a liar according to 1 John 4:20. If it gives you peace of mind to "rebuke" me, then go ahead. But if you are really honest and seek a well-rounded board, direct your rebukes also to Dave, for his conduct here has been anything but "saintly."

Of course, the bottom line is that if you don't like what you see here, you are quite free to go somewhere else.
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Dave
Dave

May 9th, 2011, 1:33 pm #46

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]This thread is being addressed to IM lovers. I am thinking specifically of Dave who has constantly endorsed and defended the use of musical devices in the assembly of saints. [BTW, Dave, will you allow me to reveal to CM readers your last name? I do not recall you ever mentioning your last name here as you did at the other site (which I would not label as "evil"). I think that you mentioned your last name briefly at the other site only when you challenged Mike to a debate. I could say more about that challenge, etc., but that's really not about this thread. And you edited it out shortly after.]

In many of our discussions with you regarding IM, you never fail to mention that "not using" musical instruments in the gathering of saints is a human or man-made tradition in the church. [By now I hope that you are convinced that "in the church" means "in the church of Christ" that you claim to be a member of.]

Whenever I mention to you that the worship of "the Virgin Mary, Mother of God" is a good example of man-made traditions, you immediately dismiss it in defense of IM as being commanded and authorized by God, as well as being pleasing to Him.

We have just heard of the beatification of the RCC pope John Paul II. (There are so many doctrinal errors in Roman Catholicism. I strongly believe that based on what the Holy Scripture teaches. What about you? Anyway, when time allows, there will be a lot of discussions in the future regarding these errors.)

Just to name a few from a long list of Catholic heresies and "human traditions," here they are:[/color]
  • Prayers for the dead
    </li>
  • Wax candles introduced in church in the 4th century
    </li>
  • Veneration of angels and dead saints
    </li>
  • Worship of Mary, "Mother of God"
    </li>
  • Prayers directed to Mary or dead saints
    </li>
  • Extreme Unction
    </li>
  • Doctrine of Purgatory in the 6th century
    </li>
  • Worship of the cross, images and relics
    </li>
  • Canonization of dead saints
    </li>
  • ... and so many, many more
    </li>
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]It is apparent that the Roman Catholic Church has evolved through the centuries because of the evolution of these man-made traditions. Unlike in the very early centuries, the church that Christ established in about 33AD does not now resemble at all the ever-evolving Roman Catholic Church.

My point is that man-made traditions, including the ones listed above, which were of PAGAN origins, are matters that man-made tradition believers do and observe, instead of what these believers DO NOT DO NOR OBSERVE.

Do you see my point? How can you assert that by "NOT DOING, NOT OBSERVING, something," it is a tradition?

Instead, using musical instruments in the assembly of saints is THE man-made tradition. Recorded history reveals it.[/color]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Let us discuss civilly, please. No name-calling, no grammatical concerns, no personal attacks, no hostile remarks. Thanks!
Ephesians 4
29 Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.

Thank you Sonny for the Scripture.

If nothing else would condemn those who run and support this site, this Scripture does.

As I said before, I have done nothing to curse those who lay low here. They have done this themselves.

Get ready, get a chair and have a sit, and listen to all the excuses that are to follow this post.

Oh Donnie.... You have asked those questions before......many times. I have answered them......many times.
No more! The game is over!


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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

May 9th, 2011, 1:54 pm #47

Brother Crump,

Please accept this in love and concern. I humbly suggest that your public remarks are foul and out of place. The Lord's church is sacred and we as members of the church are to use speech that is holy and edifying. Ephesians 5:3-4 reads, "But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. Nor should there be obscenity, FOOLISH TALK OR COARSE JOKING, which are OUT OF PLACE, but rather thanksgiving." Likewise, Ephesians 4:29 states, "Do not let ANY UNWHOLESOME TALK come out of your mouths, but ONLY WHAT IS HELPFUL FOR BUILDING UP OTHERS according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen."

-Sonny
Sonny mentioned Eph. 5:3-4. Verse 4 says, "Let there be no filthiness, nor silly talk, nor levity, which are not fitting; but instead let there be thanksgiving" (KJV).

That got me to thinking. The sermons of many postmodern preachers are crammed with jokes, amusing anecdotes, and much LEVITY that keep the audience in stitches. Yet are those comical preachers rebuked? Of course not! There wouldn't be much left of their congregations if preachers stuck to somber, serious sermons all the time. Nevertheless, I think Sonny should begin a campaign to reform the comical preachers of this world. Tell them to "get serious," stop the yuck-yucking, and persent their sermons without a hint of levity.

Are you up for that, Sonny, or do you think that "levity" in the pulpit is acceptable and totally different from "levity" on Internet message boards? Mind you, the passage above doesn't split "levity" into that which is acceptable or unacceptable. The passage clearly indicates that there should be NO LEVITY.

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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

May 9th, 2011, 4:25 pm #48

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]This thread is being addressed to IM lovers. I am thinking specifically of Dave who has constantly endorsed and defended the use of musical devices in the assembly of saints. [BTW, Dave, will you allow me to reveal to CM readers your last name? I do not recall you ever mentioning your last name here as you did at the other site (which I would not label as "evil"). I think that you mentioned your last name briefly at the other site only when you challenged Mike to a debate. I could say more about that challenge, etc., but that's really not about this thread. And you edited it out shortly after.]

In many of our discussions with you regarding IM, you never fail to mention that "not using" musical instruments in the gathering of saints is a human or man-made tradition in the church. [By now I hope that you are convinced that "in the church" means "in the church of Christ" that you claim to be a member of.]

Whenever I mention to you that the worship of "the Virgin Mary, Mother of God" is a good example of man-made traditions, you immediately dismiss it in defense of IM as being commanded and authorized by God, as well as being pleasing to Him.

We have just heard of the beatification of the RCC pope John Paul II. (There are so many doctrinal errors in Roman Catholicism. I strongly believe that based on what the Holy Scripture teaches. What about you? Anyway, when time allows, there will be a lot of discussions in the future regarding these errors.)

Just to name a few from a long list of Catholic heresies and "human traditions," here they are:[/color]
  • Prayers for the dead
    </li>
  • Wax candles introduced in church in the 4th century
    </li>
  • Veneration of angels and dead saints
    </li>
  • Worship of Mary, "Mother of God"
    </li>
  • Prayers directed to Mary or dead saints
    </li>
  • Extreme Unction
    </li>
  • Doctrine of Purgatory in the 6th century
    </li>
  • Worship of the cross, images and relics
    </li>
  • Canonization of dead saints
    </li>
  • ... and so many, many more
    </li>
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]It is apparent that the Roman Catholic Church has evolved through the centuries because of the evolution of these man-made traditions. Unlike in the very early centuries, the church that Christ established in about 33AD does not now resemble at all the ever-evolving Roman Catholic Church.

My point is that man-made traditions, including the ones listed above, which were of PAGAN origins, are matters that man-made tradition believers do and observe, instead of what these believers DO NOT DO NOR OBSERVE.

Do you see my point? How can you assert that by "NOT DOING, NOT OBSERVING, something," it is a tradition?

Instead, using musical instruments in the assembly of saints is THE man-made tradition. Recorded history reveals it.[/color]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Let us discuss civilly, please. No name-calling, no grammatical concerns, no personal attacks, no hostile remarks. Thanks!
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

May 9th, 2011, 5:27 pm #49

People who quote proof-texts are out to deceive you: and since TIME IS SHORT even preachers and scholars are joining the merry band:



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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

May 9th, 2011, 6:06 pm #50

Ephesians 4
29 Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.

Thank you Sonny for the Scripture.

If nothing else would condemn those who run and support this site, this Scripture does.

As I said before, I have done nothing to curse those who lay low here. They have done this themselves.

Get ready, get a chair and have a sit, and listen to all the excuses that are to follow this post.

Oh Donnie.... You have asked those questions before......many times. I have answered them......many times.
No more! The game is over!

Dave said, "The game is over!" When people are backed into a corner and don't want to answer questions, they cry foul and come out with angry sentiments like, "You are cursed!" or "You don't love the Lord's church!" and then "The game is over!" If Dave wants to bow out, that's fine.

I don't think Sonny will be rebuking Dave anytime soon for his lack of saintly behavior, because I get the impression that Sonny agrees with Dave's "theology." BTW, Dave's "theology" includes pronouncing a curse upon those who disagree with him (that is, "You are cursed!") and then playing the innocent "saint" by trying to make everyone believe he did nothing wrong. That, of course, is deception and hypocrisy. 1 John 4:20 condemns as LIARS those who say they love God but who show hatred for others. Therefore, someone who says he loves the Lord's church but who posts hate messages against those who disagree with him is a LIAR. I suggest that Dave take that warning very seriously.
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