NOT Using Musical Instruments in the Assembly: Is It a Human Tradition?

Dave
Dave

May 5th, 2011, 8:55 pm #21

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]This thread is being addressed to IM lovers. I am thinking specifically of Dave who has constantly endorsed and defended the use of musical devices in the assembly of saints. [BTW, Dave, will you allow me to reveal to CM readers your last name? I do not recall you ever mentioning your last name here as you did at the other site (which I would not label as "evil"). I think that you mentioned your last name briefly at the other site only when you challenged Mike to a debate. I could say more about that challenge, etc., but that's really not about this thread. And you edited it out shortly after.]

In many of our discussions with you regarding IM, you never fail to mention that "not using" musical instruments in the gathering of saints is a human or man-made tradition in the church. [By now I hope that you are convinced that "in the church" means "in the church of Christ" that you claim to be a member of.]

Whenever I mention to you that the worship of "the Virgin Mary, Mother of God" is a good example of man-made traditions, you immediately dismiss it in defense of IM as being commanded and authorized by God, as well as being pleasing to Him.

We have just heard of the beatification of the RCC pope John Paul II. (There are so many doctrinal errors in Roman Catholicism. I strongly believe that based on what the Holy Scripture teaches. What about you? Anyway, when time allows, there will be a lot of discussions in the future regarding these errors.)

Just to name a few from a long list of Catholic heresies and "human traditions," here they are:[/color]
  • Prayers for the dead
    </li>
  • Wax candles introduced in church in the 4th century
    </li>
  • Veneration of angels and dead saints
    </li>
  • Worship of Mary, "Mother of God"
    </li>
  • Prayers directed to Mary or dead saints
    </li>
  • Extreme Unction
    </li>
  • Doctrine of Purgatory in the 6th century
    </li>
  • Worship of the cross, images and relics
    </li>
  • Canonization of dead saints
    </li>
  • ... and so many, many more
    </li>
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]It is apparent that the Roman Catholic Church has evolved through the centuries because of the evolution of these man-made traditions. Unlike in the very early centuries, the church that Christ established in about 33AD does not now resemble at all the ever-evolving Roman Catholic Church.

My point is that man-made traditions, including the ones listed above, which were of PAGAN origins, are matters that man-made tradition believers do and observe, instead of what these believers DO NOT DO NOR OBSERVE.

Do you see my point? How can you assert that by "NOT DOING, NOT OBSERVING, something," it is a tradition?

Instead, using musical instruments in the assembly of saints is THE man-made tradition. Recorded history reveals it.[/color]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Let us discuss civilly, please. No name-calling, no grammatical concerns, no personal attacks, no hostile remarks. Thanks!
William,
You wanted it.....you got it. You tried to slander the Lord's church and in the process all you have accomplished is getting the lot of you MARKED!

You can't slander the Lord's church, don't you know that? It is you who are cursed.
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

May 6th, 2011, 1:22 am #22

"It is you who are cursed!" So says Dave in another melodramatic fit of self-righteousness. So he's now putting a "hex" on those with whom he disagrees? Dave may have watched too many of those old horror movies from Universal Studios and Hammer Films.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

May 6th, 2011, 3:24 am #23

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]This thread is being addressed to IM lovers. I am thinking specifically of Dave who has constantly endorsed and defended the use of musical devices in the assembly of saints. [BTW, Dave, will you allow me to reveal to CM readers your last name? I do not recall you ever mentioning your last name here as you did at the other site (which I would not label as "evil"). I think that you mentioned your last name briefly at the other site only when you challenged Mike to a debate. I could say more about that challenge, etc., but that's really not about this thread. And you edited it out shortly after.]

In many of our discussions with you regarding IM, you never fail to mention that "not using" musical instruments in the gathering of saints is a human or man-made tradition in the church. [By now I hope that you are convinced that "in the church" means "in the church of Christ" that you claim to be a member of.]

Whenever I mention to you that the worship of "the Virgin Mary, Mother of God" is a good example of man-made traditions, you immediately dismiss it in defense of IM as being commanded and authorized by God, as well as being pleasing to Him.

We have just heard of the beatification of the RCC pope John Paul II. (There are so many doctrinal errors in Roman Catholicism. I strongly believe that based on what the Holy Scripture teaches. What about you? Anyway, when time allows, there will be a lot of discussions in the future regarding these errors.)

Just to name a few from a long list of Catholic heresies and "human traditions," here they are:[/color]
  • Prayers for the dead
    </li>
  • Wax candles introduced in church in the 4th century
    </li>
  • Veneration of angels and dead saints
    </li>
  • Worship of Mary, "Mother of God"
    </li>
  • Prayers directed to Mary or dead saints
    </li>
  • Extreme Unction
    </li>
  • Doctrine of Purgatory in the 6th century
    </li>
  • Worship of the cross, images and relics
    </li>
  • Canonization of dead saints
    </li>
  • ... and so many, many more
    </li>
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]It is apparent that the Roman Catholic Church has evolved through the centuries because of the evolution of these man-made traditions. Unlike in the very early centuries, the church that Christ established in about 33AD does not now resemble at all the ever-evolving Roman Catholic Church.

My point is that man-made traditions, including the ones listed above, which were of PAGAN origins, are matters that man-made tradition believers do and observe, instead of what these believers DO NOT DO NOR OBSERVE.

Do you see my point? How can you assert that by "NOT DOING, NOT OBSERVING, something," it is a tradition?

Instead, using musical instruments in the assembly of saints is THE man-made tradition. Recorded history reveals it.[/color]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Let us discuss civilly, please. No name-calling, no grammatical concerns, no personal attacks, no hostile remarks. Thanks!

Last edited by Ken.Sublett on May 6th, 2011, 3:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Dave
Dave

May 6th, 2011, 5:31 am #24

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]This thread is being addressed to IM lovers. I am thinking specifically of Dave who has constantly endorsed and defended the use of musical devices in the assembly of saints. [BTW, Dave, will you allow me to reveal to CM readers your last name? I do not recall you ever mentioning your last name here as you did at the other site (which I would not label as "evil"). I think that you mentioned your last name briefly at the other site only when you challenged Mike to a debate. I could say more about that challenge, etc., but that's really not about this thread. And you edited it out shortly after.]

In many of our discussions with you regarding IM, you never fail to mention that "not using" musical instruments in the gathering of saints is a human or man-made tradition in the church. [By now I hope that you are convinced that "in the church" means "in the church of Christ" that you claim to be a member of.]

Whenever I mention to you that the worship of "the Virgin Mary, Mother of God" is a good example of man-made traditions, you immediately dismiss it in defense of IM as being commanded and authorized by God, as well as being pleasing to Him.

We have just heard of the beatification of the RCC pope John Paul II. (There are so many doctrinal errors in Roman Catholicism. I strongly believe that based on what the Holy Scripture teaches. What about you? Anyway, when time allows, there will be a lot of discussions in the future regarding these errors.)

Just to name a few from a long list of Catholic heresies and "human traditions," here they are:[/color]
  • Prayers for the dead
    </li>
  • Wax candles introduced in church in the 4th century
    </li>
  • Veneration of angels and dead saints
    </li>
  • Worship of Mary, "Mother of God"
    </li>
  • Prayers directed to Mary or dead saints
    </li>
  • Extreme Unction
    </li>
  • Doctrine of Purgatory in the 6th century
    </li>
  • Worship of the cross, images and relics
    </li>
  • Canonization of dead saints
    </li>
  • ... and so many, many more
    </li>
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]It is apparent that the Roman Catholic Church has evolved through the centuries because of the evolution of these man-made traditions. Unlike in the very early centuries, the church that Christ established in about 33AD does not now resemble at all the ever-evolving Roman Catholic Church.

My point is that man-made traditions, including the ones listed above, which were of PAGAN origins, are matters that man-made tradition believers do and observe, instead of what these believers DO NOT DO NOR OBSERVE.

Do you see my point? How can you assert that by "NOT DOING, NOT OBSERVING, something," it is a tradition?

Instead, using musical instruments in the assembly of saints is THE man-made tradition. Recorded history reveals it.[/color]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Let us discuss civilly, please. No name-calling, no grammatical concerns, no personal attacks, no hostile remarks. Thanks!
William, I didn't put a curse on you......you did that yourself.
There is a way out though.......try JESUS!
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

May 6th, 2011, 8:06 am #25

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]This thread is being addressed to IM lovers. I am thinking specifically of Dave who has constantly endorsed and defended the use of musical devices in the assembly of saints. [BTW, Dave, will you allow me to reveal to CM readers your last name? I do not recall you ever mentioning your last name here as you did at the other site (which I would not label as "evil"). I think that you mentioned your last name briefly at the other site only when you challenged Mike to a debate. I could say more about that challenge, etc., but that's really not about this thread. And you edited it out shortly after.]

In many of our discussions with you regarding IM, you never fail to mention that "not using" musical instruments in the gathering of saints is a human or man-made tradition in the church. [By now I hope that you are convinced that "in the church" means "in the church of Christ" that you claim to be a member of.]

Whenever I mention to you that the worship of "the Virgin Mary, Mother of God" is a good example of man-made traditions, you immediately dismiss it in defense of IM as being commanded and authorized by God, as well as being pleasing to Him.

We have just heard of the beatification of the RCC pope John Paul II. (There are so many doctrinal errors in Roman Catholicism. I strongly believe that based on what the Holy Scripture teaches. What about you? Anyway, when time allows, there will be a lot of discussions in the future regarding these errors.)

Just to name a few from a long list of Catholic heresies and "human traditions," here they are:[/color]
  • Prayers for the dead
    </li>
  • Wax candles introduced in church in the 4th century
    </li>
  • Veneration of angels and dead saints
    </li>
  • Worship of Mary, "Mother of God"
    </li>
  • Prayers directed to Mary or dead saints
    </li>
  • Extreme Unction
    </li>
  • Doctrine of Purgatory in the 6th century
    </li>
  • Worship of the cross, images and relics
    </li>
  • Canonization of dead saints
    </li>
  • ... and so many, many more
    </li>
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]It is apparent that the Roman Catholic Church has evolved through the centuries because of the evolution of these man-made traditions. Unlike in the very early centuries, the church that Christ established in about 33AD does not now resemble at all the ever-evolving Roman Catholic Church.

My point is that man-made traditions, including the ones listed above, which were of PAGAN origins, are matters that man-made tradition believers do and observe, instead of what these believers DO NOT DO NOR OBSERVE.

Do you see my point? How can you assert that by "NOT DOING, NOT OBSERVING, something," it is a tradition?

Instead, using musical instruments in the assembly of saints is THE man-made tradition. Recorded history reveals it.[/color]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Let us discuss civilly, please. No name-calling, no grammatical concerns, no personal attacks, no hostile remarks. Thanks!
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave,

We have very patiently allowed you for quite some time now to declare your self-righteousness, your piety and your being a role model for Christian living.

You have refused to provide answers to some of the questions posed earlier. They would have settled a lot of issues you raised yourself.

Now, would you answer the initial question:[/color]
NOT Using Musical Instruments in the Assembly: Is It a Human Tradition?
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

May 6th, 2011, 12:31 pm #26

William, I didn't put a curse on you......you did that yourself.
There is a way out though.......try JESUS!
Dave, I don't think Jesus would approve of your putting a hex on those who disagree with you. That's the opposite of going the "extra mile."
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Fred Whaley
Fred Whaley

May 6th, 2011, 12:35 pm #27

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave,

The last time I checked, churches of Christ (40,000 congregation-strong worldwide) do not allow inanimate, lifeless musical devices to participate in their assemblies. ConcernedMembers is dedicated to mark the change agents and folks like you who go against the beliefs and Scripture-conforming practices of the church, the body of Christ.

So, just who is going against the grain? It is not ConcernedMembers. Rather, it is the change agents and other folks like you!!! So, just who is going against the Lord's church? It is not the ConcernedMembers website. Rather, it is the change agents and other folks like you.

You should know by now that instrumental music, when introduced, implemented and practised in the assembly, is a DIVISIVE ISSUE in the church, the body of Christ. Yet, the change agents operating in the brotherhood are out there to transform the church into something that it is not and shouldn't be.

We are here to defend the church and be loyal to Christ and His church. On the other hand, the change agents are out there to do the opposite -- change the church and make it conform to the demands of denominationalism, Community Church-ism, culture and society.[/color]
Dave - in other terms Donnie is saying that the Church of Christ is the only true church. All the churches that use instruments are not churches. With this hair-splitting theology the same could be said for all churches that use four-part harmony. The Catholics are closer to the first-century church on that one. They pick and choose what is truth and what is not and are inconsistent. They would probably say that this is comparing apples to oranges when it obviously is not.

Fred Whaley
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Dave
Dave

May 6th, 2011, 3:58 pm #28

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]This thread is being addressed to IM lovers. I am thinking specifically of Dave who has constantly endorsed and defended the use of musical devices in the assembly of saints. [BTW, Dave, will you allow me to reveal to CM readers your last name? I do not recall you ever mentioning your last name here as you did at the other site (which I would not label as "evil"). I think that you mentioned your last name briefly at the other site only when you challenged Mike to a debate. I could say more about that challenge, etc., but that's really not about this thread. And you edited it out shortly after.]

In many of our discussions with you regarding IM, you never fail to mention that "not using" musical instruments in the gathering of saints is a human or man-made tradition in the church. [By now I hope that you are convinced that "in the church" means "in the church of Christ" that you claim to be a member of.]

Whenever I mention to you that the worship of "the Virgin Mary, Mother of God" is a good example of man-made traditions, you immediately dismiss it in defense of IM as being commanded and authorized by God, as well as being pleasing to Him.

We have just heard of the beatification of the RCC pope John Paul II. (There are so many doctrinal errors in Roman Catholicism. I strongly believe that based on what the Holy Scripture teaches. What about you? Anyway, when time allows, there will be a lot of discussions in the future regarding these errors.)

Just to name a few from a long list of Catholic heresies and "human traditions," here they are:[/color]
  • Prayers for the dead
    </li>
  • Wax candles introduced in church in the 4th century
    </li>
  • Veneration of angels and dead saints
    </li>
  • Worship of Mary, "Mother of God"
    </li>
  • Prayers directed to Mary or dead saints
    </li>
  • Extreme Unction
    </li>
  • Doctrine of Purgatory in the 6th century
    </li>
  • Worship of the cross, images and relics
    </li>
  • Canonization of dead saints
    </li>
  • ... and so many, many more
    </li>
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]It is apparent that the Roman Catholic Church has evolved through the centuries because of the evolution of these man-made traditions. Unlike in the very early centuries, the church that Christ established in about 33AD does not now resemble at all the ever-evolving Roman Catholic Church.

My point is that man-made traditions, including the ones listed above, which were of PAGAN origins, are matters that man-made tradition believers do and observe, instead of what these believers DO NOT DO NOR OBSERVE.

Do you see my point? How can you assert that by "NOT DOING, NOT OBSERVING, something," it is a tradition?

Instead, using musical instruments in the assembly of saints is THE man-made tradition. Recorded history reveals it.[/color]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Let us discuss civilly, please. No name-calling, no grammatical concerns, no personal attacks, no hostile remarks. Thanks!
Donnie,
I told you before that I would not give a rebuttal, so like always with any audience that you feel will come here, you continue to grandstand.
I will not give rebuttal because you have seen my answer here many times before. All that you do is continue to ask the same questions, and even when you get the Truth you ignore it....and ask the same question again. What should I expect...if you don't listen to Jesus, then why would you ever consider listening to me?

You said "We have very patiently allowed you for quite some time now to declare your self-righteousness, your piety and your being a role model for Christian living."

No you have not, you are grandstanding....again.

Donnie, you can't question anyone's Christian living when your life is in stark contrast to the way that Christ showed you to live.
You have insulted His church, His bride, the elders who rule over it, and no matter what you say about THOSE who you believe to be in error in guiding Madison, you went about all of this in a sinful manner. Your gripes and complaints should have never come to a public forum such as this.
YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING AND HAVE DONE!
You need to repent.
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

May 6th, 2011, 5:34 pm #29

Since Dave says he's given his answer here "many times before," then we must conclude that Dave approves of and sees nothing wrong with having instrumental music in worship assemblies, because it's allegedly OK to have anything that God doesn't condemn by name. That's the answer Dave has given here "many times before." If that's not true, however, then now is the time for Dave to set the record straight, once and for all time. If Dave's reply merely repeats his accusations that we're liars, we're cursed, and we don't love the Lord's church (same ole same ole), then we'll KNOW all the more that Dave approves of IM in worship assemblies. When people are backed into a corner, they are more likely to lash out in hostility and clam up when asked questions.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

May 7th, 2011, 2:49 am #30

Donnie,
I told you before that I would not give a rebuttal, so like always with any audience that you feel will come here, you continue to grandstand.
I will not give rebuttal because you have seen my answer here many times before. All that you do is continue to ask the same questions, and even when you get the Truth you ignore it....and ask the same question again. What should I expect...if you don't listen to Jesus, then why would you ever consider listening to me?

You said "We have very patiently allowed you for quite some time now to declare your self-righteousness, your piety and your being a role model for Christian living."

No you have not, you are grandstanding....again.

Donnie, you can't question anyone's Christian living when your life is in stark contrast to the way that Christ showed you to live.
You have insulted His church, His bride, the elders who rule over it, and no matter what you say about THOSE who you believe to be in error in guiding Madison, you went about all of this in a sinful manner. Your gripes and complaints should have never come to a public forum such as this.
YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING AND HAVE DONE!
You need to repent.
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave,

I certainly have. And your answer that I've seen "here many times before" is that, according to YOU, the Scripture does not forbid the use of musical instruments in the assembly and, therefore, God approves their mechanical operation.

You further state or imply that David, king of Israel, man of God and dearly loved by Him, ensampled for us the praise and worship of God "in the assembly" [an important component of the IM issue--"in the assembly"] with a variety [a long list] of "instruments of musick." So, the church assembled should emulate David

You further present this weak and fallacious argument by equating the PA system [which even a kindergartener knows is NOT a musical instrument] WITH any of the real musical devices (piano, organ, trumpet, harp, sackbut, flute, cornet, psaltery, etc.). That if we use the PA system, why not musical instruments?

You further suggest that the church is burdened by our "tradition" [human, man-made] such as by our objection to the use of musical instruments "in worship."

You've said many other things that discredit what churches of Christ believe and teach regarding IM. But those I've just mentioned should suffice my understanding of your stance on the mechanical operation of musical devices in the assembly. [OK, I'm not done in responding to all of your personal attacks, charges, accusations and judgments against me and others here; save them for later.] Right now, back to the initial question:[/color]
<b>NOT Using Musical Instruments in the Assembly: Is It a Human Tradition?</b>
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]I am trying to understand your hesitancy in giving a rebuttal. I think I do understand now. I have presented YOUR rebuttal myself. I have gathered from your various posts that your response would be a resounding YES to that question. If NO, then, correct me where I have misstated.[/color]
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