Change Agent (called by God)
Change Agent (called by God)

June 9th, 2010, 2:54 pm #11

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave,

From Matthew's and John's accounts, my basic math tells me: TWO. I was looking very intently for:

(1) the Spirit OF the Father (Matt. 10:20)

------------ and --------------
(2) the Spirit OF Jesus Christ (Phil. 1:19)

. . . speaking to or communicating with ... what was that "third person" you made up?

So that you may clearly understand, please read very carefully the two passages I referenced.[/color]
Donnie you are a great example of why people out there are often disgusted with the Church of Christ. How many times in the New Testament is there reference to the Holy Spirit on someone? From God of course, just as Jesus came from God, but of course one, why is that so difficult. Keep twisting scripture as you and Ken are masters at, i will continue to be an agent of change.
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

June 9th, 2010, 5:25 pm #12

Holy, holy, holy! Lord God Almighty!
Early in the morning our song shall rise to Thee;
Holy, holy, holy, merciful and mighty!
God in three Persons, blessed Trinity!

Holy, holy, holy! All the saints adore Thee,
Casting down their golden crowns around the glassy sea;
Cherubim and seraphim falling down before Thee,
Who was, and is, and evermore shall be.

Holy, holy, holy! Though the darkness hide Thee,
Though the eye of sinful man Thy glory may not see;
Only Thou art holy; there is none beside Thee,
Perfect in powr, in love, and purity.

Holy, holy, holy! Lord God Almighty!
All Thy works shall praise Thy Name, in earth, and sky, and sea;
Holy, holy, holy; merciful and mighty!
God in three Persons, blessed Trinity!
Jesus Christ or Jesus of Nazareth was the SPIRIT Who
guided the Apostles into all truth: Peter said that He left us an
example which means a WRITTEN example.  When all of the Eye-
and Ear-witnesses had recorded their PARTS you wil find the term The
Holy Spirit very rare.  In the Book of Revelation you will
notice that the message to each church was from Jesus Christ and ends
by demanding that we HEAR what the SPIRIT says to the churches. The
Name of the Spirit OF God is the Spirit OF Christ. Donnie can learn you
about prepositional phrases all day long and you will never grasp that
the spirit OF anger is not a little person inside of your carnal body.
 In John 14 when Jesus promised 'another' or different
Comforter he said I WILL COME TO YOU.  Then, the mutual
ABIDING or INDWELLING includes only Father and Son.

Nextly, because the letters were SUMMING UP the revelation of Christ
guiding the Apostles, they DO NOT address in the name of a pagan
trinity.

THERE ARE ONLY TWO ACTORS: The Sender and the
Receiver.

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly,
.......That Godhath made that same Jesus,
.......whom ye havecrucified, both Lord and Christ.

Jesus of Nazareth was the predestinated and protected SEED
of Abraham. He did not exist before He existed.

Notice in the address is to:

Rom. 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle,
.......separated unto the gospel of God,
Rom. 1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holyscriptures,)
Rom. 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord,
.......which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

1Cor. 1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle
.......of Jesus Christ
.......through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
1Cor. 1:2 Unto
.......the church of God which is at Corinth,
.......to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints,
.......with all that in every place call upon
.......the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
1Cor. 1:3 Grace be unto you, and peace,
.......from God our Father, and from
.......the Lord Jesus Christ

Gal. 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man,
.......but by Jesus Christ,
.......and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
Gal. 1:2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:
Gal. 1:3 Grace be to you and peace
.......from God the Father,
.......and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
Gal. 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins,
.......that he might deliver us from this present evil world,
.......according to the will of God and our Father
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

June 9th, 2010, 10:23 pm #13

Matthew 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the FATHER and of the SON and of the HOLY SPIRIT,

from the REAL Word of God, not yours Donnie, how many are capitalized there?
1?
2?
3?

This is from the mouth of Jesus. Jesus wanted us to know that there was one, as you say, so you may clearly undertstand, so Jesus COMMUNICATED three there. Nothing confusing about that. Did Jesus speak of the Spirit of Jesus there? What about the Spirit of the Father? No! Three but ONE.
Just to CLEARLY COMMUNICATE, yes Donnie, all of these three are SPIRITS. What would you call your soul? Is it something physical like a heart? No. Most everyone will die one day (not everyone will see death), and when we do, what is left after the body goes back to dust? The spirit, or the soul.


Donnie, you and Ken always try to hide the Word underneath your clever language. God's Word will not be hidden! You can't keep it down.

Matthew 10
19 But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; 20 for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.

Phillipians 1
19 For I know that this will turn out for my deliverance through your prayer and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ

Yes Donnie, if we are made in the image of God, then OF COURSE, they are all Spirits. We are all have a spirit (soul) too. God is a Spirit, Jesus is a Spirit, the Holy Spirit is a Spirit.

John 4:24 (King James Version
24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

THREE, but ONE!

Matthew 28 CLEARLY STATES three, yet we know from John 1 that they are One.
YES Donnie, God in Three Persons, is right. Not right according to Cruz 23, verse whatever, but right according to the Word of God.....and that is all that counts.
Donnie, just to note......if you would allow the Spirit of Christ to indwell in you, this would not be so hard. Keep fighting Him, and you will never understand it.
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave,

So far, you have completely ignored the question: "Why did the publishers or compilers of hymns from generations past go through all the trouble of making the correction if there was no difference between: (a) the Catholic/papal-originated doctrine of God in "three persons" and (b) what the Scripture teaches regarding God's nature?

The modification was INTENTIONAL. The change, to my knowledge, is found only in the various hymnbooks used in churches of Christ. Did you even look up the corrected version in the hymnbook that your congregation in South Carolina uses? It does not say, "God in three persons, blessed Trinity"; does it?

You've also ignored the period in Christendom when the Trinity doctrine was INVENTED. Are you that unfamiliar with the Roman Catholic Church, the papacy, the Nicene Creed, the Roman Emperor Constantine? Dave, you don't go by the popularity of a doctrine or creed. Are you that afraid to check out human creeds and doctrines against what the Scripture teaches?

You can quote all the passages in reference to the Spirit or God's Spirit or the Holy Spirit of God or even the holy Spirit of Jesus Christ. Yes, I'd be the first one to let you know that I believe in God's holy Spirit. I also believe in the three essences or entities in the Godhead. But the big question is when did the Scripture authorize you to label the Spirit of Christ or God as a person and designate a male gender????? That's like making your own mind or your own spirit a different person from Dave. It does not work that way.

Let me know if you are really interested in studying more about the "Spirit OF Jesus Christ" or "the Spirit OF the Father" or "the Spirit OF God" -- these are all synonymous phrases or expressions in the Bible.

I'll give you a few hints in regard to the study of the "Spirit OF the Lord" -- another synonymous expression:

-- What or how much do you know about the Spirit OF the Lord as you study the Old Testament?
-- What does the Old Testament really say about God's Spirit?
-- Who invented the Trinity doctrine? Wherefrom was the doctrine originated?
-- Would you accept the Trinity doctrine that's been handed down from the papacy?
-- Would you accept the Trinity doctrine because the Protestant Churches like this papal doctrine?
-- Are you familiar with the Father-and-the-Son relationship written about by John and others?
-- Why was God's or Christ's Spirit left out in all of the Father-Son communication?
-- Why do versions of the Bible sometimes refer to the Holy Spirit of God as an "IT"?
-- Why do versions of the Bible sometimes refer to the Holy Spirit of God as a "HE" -- but not always?
-- What about baptizing in the NAME [only one] of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?
-- It is scriptural to say "the holy Spirit of Jesus Christ." Why is that?
-- It is scriptural to say "the holy Spirit of the Father." Why is that?
-- Why do we not find in Scripture "the holy Spirit of the holy Spirit?
-- What is the significance of the preposition "OF" in the expressions above?
-- OK ... OK ... OK. "OF" signifies belongingness or possession--something that belongs to.
-- So, does the "Nose "OF" Dave make that nose another person apart from Dave?

I'm out of time right now. So, would you like to study the subject of "the holy Spirit of Jesus Christ" in more detail?[/color]
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

June 9th, 2010, 11:27 pm #14

Jesus Christ or Jesus of Nazareth was the SPIRIT Who
guided the Apostles into all truth: Peter said that He left us an
example which means a WRITTEN example.  When all of the Eye-
and Ear-witnesses had recorded their PARTS you wil find the term The
Holy Spirit very rare.  In the Book of Revelation you will
notice that the message to each church was from Jesus Christ and ends
by demanding that we HEAR what the SPIRIT says to the churches. The
Name of the Spirit OF God is the Spirit OF Christ. Donnie can learn you
about prepositional phrases all day long and you will never grasp that
the spirit OF anger is not a little person inside of your carnal body.
 In John 14 when Jesus promised 'another' or different
Comforter he said I WILL COME TO YOU.  Then, the mutual
ABIDING or INDWELLING includes only Father and Son.

Nextly, because the letters were SUMMING UP the revelation of Christ
guiding the Apostles, they DO NOT address in the name of a pagan
trinity.

THERE ARE ONLY TWO ACTORS: The Sender and the
Receiver.

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly,
.......That Godhath made that same Jesus,
.......whom ye havecrucified, both Lord and Christ.

Jesus of Nazareth was the predestinated and protected SEED
of Abraham. He did not exist before He existed.

Notice in the address is to:

Rom. 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle,
.......separated unto the gospel of God,
Rom. 1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holyscriptures,)
Rom. 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord,
.......which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

1Cor. 1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle
.......of Jesus Christ
.......through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
1Cor. 1:2 Unto
.......the church of God which is at Corinth,
.......to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints,
.......with all that in every place call upon
.......the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
1Cor. 1:3 Grace be unto you, and peace,
.......from God our Father, and from
.......the Lord Jesus Christ

Gal. 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man,
.......but by Jesus Christ,
.......and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
Gal. 1:2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:
Gal. 1:3 Grace be to you and peace
.......from God the Father,
.......and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
Gal. 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins,
.......that he might deliver us from this present evil world,
.......according to the will of God and our Father
Matthew 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the FATHER and of the SON and of the HOLY SPIRIT,

from the REAL Word of God, not yours Donnie, how many are capitalized there?
1?
2?
3?


Mt 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. [There is nothing left over for a "father" and "spirit" sitting on a chair somewhere]

G1849 exousia ex-oo-see'-ah From G1832 (in the sense of ability); privilege, that is, (subjectively) force, capacity, competency, freedom, or (objectively) mastery (concretely magistrate, superhuman, potentate, token of control), delegated influence:authority, jurisdiction, liberty, power, right, strength.

Mt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach [didaktikos] all nations,
baptizING them in the name [Jesus Christ] of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

TeachING them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Mt 28:20

The NAME is singular: Jesus Christ. He did not say what WE have commanded you or WE will be with you until the mission is complete.

Now Peter may have been a fisherman but he had very good hearing.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

VERTICALLY
The Invisible and Inaudible from TOP God the Father
The visible and audible WORD of God Jesus of Nazareth MADE Lord and Christ

HORIZONTIALLY TO REFUTE ALWAYS-PAGAN TRINITY

Jesus as the Christ is
Father within ME and His breath (spirit) lets ME hear.

Jesus Christ as THE ONLY Word in the Spirit realm would teach them EVERYTHING which was really to BRING to their remembrance what He HAD taught them face-to-face.

Jesus of Nazareth as the Spirit Lord had to let Paul SEE and HEAR Him to qualify him as an apostle.

Paul said that he was an apostle LAST OF ALL.

Therefore, when each Spirit Led writer finished his PART then knowledge which had been in PART was then made COMPLETE.

Thereafter, the Role of Jesus Christ is to TEACH us all that we need when the elders teach that which has been taught.

He is now the Intercessor for all of us but SPEAKING audibly and visibly to NO ONE.
If you deny that then you deny His power to put SPIRIT into written text.







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Dave
Dave

June 10th, 2010, 4:25 am #15

Ken,
Don't mean to bypass and ignore you, AGAIN, but.....actually I DO mean to bypass and ignore you, AGAIN.
At least with Donnie, it is very easy to show where he is in error, even as he continues to use his familiar smoke screen. With you Ken, we talk about the weather, and you want to talk about cows.
129Your testimonies are wonderful;
Therefore my soul observes them.
130The unfolding of Your words gives light;
It gives understanding to the simple.

You don't need your Greek mythology to understand the Word Ken.

Donnie, NO, let me repeat, NO I do not want to study with you about most anything. You have gone too far to continue to abuse the Word to fit your traditions.

You said..." But the big question is when did the Scripture authorize you to label the Spirit of Christ or God as a person and designate a male gender?????"

When you look to tear someone down when they use a term such as "PERSON" to describe Jesus, then again it just shows me that you want to use Scriptures to the detriment of man, instead of using Scriptures to save man, which is what it has always been it's intended use.
It is still appropriate to use the term "PERSON" for Jesus. Jesus was Spirit, but he also had put on a physical body that sensed pain, just as any man. Ever heard of the term "Son of Man?" Look it up.

Galatians 3:16

15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a mans covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. 16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, And to seeds, as of many, but as of one, And to your Seed,who is Christ.
This is the NKJV.
When it speaks of seed here it means PERSONS. PERSON(s)....Donnie.
Keep twisting and twisting Donnie, but as always, it's going to always weigh in favor of God's Word, not Donnie Cruz's wants and interpretations.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

June 10th, 2010, 7:47 am #16

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave,

How do you envision God's holy Spirit? [/color]
  • As "in a bodily shape like a dove" descending?
    </li>
  • As an entity or essence left out of the communication between the Father and the Son?
    </li>
  • As Job 27:3 states: "All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils"?
    </li>
  • As "a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind" (Acts 2)?
    </li>
  • As the giver of supernatural power to any Christian today just as well as the apostles?
    </li>
  • As the mind of Christ or God?
    </li>
  • All of the above?
    </li>
  • Some of the above?
    </li>
  • None of the above?

    </li>
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]All I am showing you is that I have not changed or twisted God's truth regarding God's [His] Holy Spirit. It is HIS Spirit after all. It is Christ's holy Spirit after all.

Simply put, Dave, it is the Spirit that BELONGS TO God or the Father or Christ or the Lord. You will not find anything about the Spirit that BELONGS TO the Holy Spirit.

I didn't think you'd be interested in studying the subject of God's (HIS) or Christ's (HIS) Holy Spirit. You simply panicked when I give you a list of related statements or topics to consider.

So, keep aligning yourself with the papal doctrine.

It is a fair conclusion that in all of the hymnbooks used in the churches of Christ, the publishers and compilers of hymns knew and understood the truth and did INTENTIONALLY change the words in "Holy, Holy, Holy!" by rejecting the Catholic-invented and Protestant-popularized Trinity doctrine and replacing it with the truth.

Yes, the spirit of God is an essence or an entity in the Godhead. The mind/spirit of Christ or of God is HOLY and is correctly identified as God's Holy Spirit or the Spirit OF the Lord. In contrast, the spirit of man is not holy. God's Spirit communes with the Christian's spirit. But the spirit OF man does not make itself another person of that man. Neither does God's Spirit make itself another "person."[/color]
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Dave
Dave

June 10th, 2010, 8:08 pm #17

Donnie, you say "Neither does God's Spirit make itself another "person.""

That is NOT what God's Word says.

Galatians 3:16
16The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say "and to seeds," meaning many people, but "and to your seed," meaning one person, who is Christ. (but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.-KJV)

Now you can mumble on with your double talk of how the NIV puts it in a definitive term of "PERSON" while the KJV does not, but they mean the same, and you know it.

Donnie, you speak with a forked tongue. spirit of the spirit of the spirit of the.......
Have you ever noticed that the only ones who can 'study' with you are those like William Crump and Ken Sublett?
You speak a foreign language Donnie. I speak the Word. Why would I, in any way, want to dialogue with you on God's Holy Word, when you continue to try and tear His Word down to fit your selfish needs?

Your double speak goes directly against these words in Psalms 119
130The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.
You try to make it hard for only a few to understand. Doesn't that sound more like something coming from the papacy than what you claim of me? Oh yea!


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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

June 10th, 2010, 8:48 pm #18

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave,

I think the readers out there have observed this: In your discussion, you include too much of your adjectives and favorite expressions about those with whom you are discussing. When all of that is removed, your message is skeletal and contains only skimpy, irrelevant scriptural references with your faulty arguments. [In boxing, that would be an extremely low percentage of accurate punches -- just going through the motion.]

Of late you've mentioned the "seed" or "Jesus Christ." That's a deviation from the subject of the Spirit of God. Especially since we essentially agree on that issue.

We're discussing the validity of the Spirit of Jesus Christ [a.k.a. God's own Holy Spirit] as the third person in the papal doctrine of the Trinity.

Dave, the Spirit OF either the Father or the Son Jesus Christ -- that's what we're discussing. Why don't you study very carefully those expressions:

-- The Spirit OF God
-- The Spirit OF Christ
-- The Spirit OF Jesus Christ
-- The Spirit OF the Father
-- The Spirit OF the Lord
-- The Spirit OF OUR God
-- The Spirit OF His Son

You know the children's song: "This little light of mine." What does the preposition "OF" in that song signify? Possession? Something that belongs to? YES!!!

I think you're careless in not recognizing that little word "OF" and what that word means in those prepositional phrases or expressions associated with God's [oops ... another one of those possessive expressions] Spirit: God's Spirit.[/color]
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

June 10th, 2010, 10:55 pm #19

In other words, Donnie is saying that if you take Dave's remarks and filter out the insults and sarcastic remarks, all that's left is "skeletal" material.

Donnie, how would you interpret the following passages?

"This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one" (1 John 5:6-8 KJV).
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

June 11th, 2010, 8:19 am #20

Holy, holy, holy! Lord God Almighty!
Early in the morning our song shall rise to Thee;
Holy, holy, holy, merciful and mighty!
God in three Persons, blessed Trinity!

Holy, holy, holy! All the saints adore Thee,
Casting down their golden crowns around the glassy sea;
Cherubim and seraphim falling down before Thee,
Who was, and is, and evermore shall be.

Holy, holy, holy! Though the darkness hide Thee,
Though the eye of sinful man Thy glory may not see;
Only Thou art holy; there is none beside Thee,
Perfect in powr, in love, and purity.

Holy, holy, holy! Lord God Almighty!
All Thy works shall praise Thy Name, in earth, and sky, and sea;
Holy, holy, holy; merciful and mighty!
God in three Persons, blessed Trinity!
Good question, Bill.

Reference: "[6] This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. [7] For there are three that bear record {{{in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. [8] And there are three that bear witness in earth,}}} the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. (I John 5:6-8)

Please note the portion of the passage that is within the braces {{{...}}}. While this portion is used by theologians to defend the RCC/papal-approved, Nicene Creed-authorized Trinity doctrine, it has been considered spurious and is omitted from a number of versions. The main reason is that that statement is not found in any of the earlier Greek manuscripts before the 16th century. Interestingly, strong as a proponent the Roman Catholic Church or the papacy is in regard to the Trinity Creed, the New Revised Standard Version (Catholic Edition), that [spurious/disputed] text is not included.

If the disputed text is omitted, it should state: "For there are three that bear record, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Regardless of which version is preferred, we notice the expressions: (a) "these three are one" and (b) "these three agree in one." Without the disputed text, the prevailing idea would be: "these three agree in one." But in either expression, there is nothing that indicates or suggests "three persons." NONE!!! Three essences or entities, then? Yes. But an entity does not have to be a person. The "mind" [an entity] of Dave is NOT another person of Dave. And so is the mind or spirit of God. And so is the mind or spirit of Jesus Christ.

Now, the three entities: the spirit, and the water, and the blood. Whether "the water and the blood" means baptism and redemption or whether it means "the water and the blood" which flowed from the side of the Savior, NONE of the three entities is a person.

Consider this: "Because the Spirit is truth." Jesus said: "I am the way, the TRUTH, and the life."

The crux of the matter is that the witnesses are one, meaning, "in agreement." No evidence of the "third person" that the Trinity doctrine espouses.
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