New Poll @this website - do you believe in instrumental music or do you believe in LOVE?

Sonny
Sonny

November 1st, 2010, 2:26 am #21

Scriptural Verification:

Paul comes out swinging in verse 1

"If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. " - 1 Corinthians 13: NASV.

Poll:
a.) I believe in instrumental music
b.) I choose LOVE

Thanks for your participation and lots of love all!

N.J. Gold
Isaiah 1:17
learn to do right!
Seek justice,
encourage the oppressed.
Defend the cause of the fatherless,
plead the case of the widow.

Song of Solomon -http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=KJV

Here is a great example of proof-texting. You take a verse "out of context" to "prove" a point that the text is not actually saying.

1 Corinthians 13:1 - "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal."

The context of this verse is not using these instruments for worship, but just in general, whereas Psalm 150:5 is in the context of worship.

Psalm 150:5

"praise him with the clash of cymbals, praise him with resounding cymbals."

-Sonny
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AM
AM

November 1st, 2010, 3:01 am #22

AM,
So you don't believe that with Jesus you clearly understood everything about Him?
Interesting......

So you don't believe that with Jesus you clearly understood everything about Him?
Interesting......

I did not state what I understood or did not understand about Jesus. That is two times you have stated things I did not state. I can see where you could easily be mislead into believing things that are not rooted in the truth.

To believe that one clearly understands God would be an indication of narcissism. The most obvious examples of narcissism are found in: CEO's of large corporations, Hollywood Actors and ministers of large churches, of which I am not.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

November 1st, 2010, 3:54 am #23

Here is a great example of proof-texting. You take a verse "out of context" to "prove" a point that the text is not actually saying.

1 Corinthians 13:1 - "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal."

The context of this verse is not using these instruments for worship, but just in general, whereas Psalm 150:5 is in the context of worship.

Psalm 150:5

"praise him with the clash of cymbals, praise him with resounding cymbals."

-Sonny
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Just wondering why you referenced that particular passage as being in the context of worship. Isn't the issue with instrumental music associated with its use in the assembly of the saints during singing?

-- David was not dealing with singing in the gathering of saints.
-- It was David, the MUSICIAN, who invented instruments of music (Amos 6:5).
-- It was David (not God) who ordained musical instruments while king of Israel (II Chron. 29:27).
-- "Praise him with" came from David, the skilled musician, not God.

Would you clarify your stance that Psalm 150 is somehow giving New Testament Christians permission or authority to "worship" God with musical devices? Sounds like a faulty assumption on man's part.[/color]
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AM
AM

November 1st, 2010, 4:05 am #24

"

We can ask Dave the same question: Would Dave assume (speak where Jesus did not) that because "Jesus didn't say not to," then it is permissible to have instruments in worship? Dave had better not! Since we are told the kind of music to use (vocal), then ADDING IM is speaking where Jesus has not. It's as simple as that.

William Crump, I realize that is has been a while since you have been out of college, so let me explain some logic, and profile YOUR illogical reasoning. People like you, William, believe that logic doesn't apply to them. For a reality check.....most people like you have their own rules for logic......speaking of reality check.....that would do you a bit of good.
William Crump said "Since we are told the kind of music to use (vocal), then ADDING IM is speaking where Jesus has not. It's as simple as that."

Logically speaking, whether we use an instrument or not, as long as the singing is accomplished we are acting on the command TO SING. The instrument will ONLY accompany the singing. It neither takes place of or prohibits the singing.
Now, William says that an instrument is ADDING to that which is called for in Scripture.
Let's now apply that to what is called for when we are commanded to GO and teach the world about Jesus.
Matthew 28
9Therefore GO and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
The only examples we have of to "GO" in the NT is by foot, animals, and boat.
So if we, today, use a plane, a car, the internet, or anything else not used by the first century church, then by William's example we are going BEYOND what it is called for in the Scriptures.
In the NT church, instrumental music being used to accompany the singing isn't spoken of, so by William's call, we shouldn't use it.
In the NT church, the internet isn't spoken of to GO to teach the world about Christ, but yet that is ok with those who use this evil concerned members site to promote hate.
Do you see a double standard here?
Good! Because that is what they want to employ here....a double standard to protect a tradition.

AM,
It seems to me that you are wrong when you say that "Jesus's worship to God, was totally different to the way David worshipped God."
Why is that wrong. Why was David loved by God?
Acts 13
22After removing Saul, he made David their king. He testified concerning him: 'I have found David son of Jesse a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.'
Why AM?
Because Jesus taught that the heart meant everything in worship to His Father. David knew that. That is why he not only praised God with his words, but also his talent of playing and singing.
He used ALL of his heart and soul to worship God. He was a lot different than most kings.
Am, also with your reasoning about why the OT spoke of instrument but not the NT.......how about another counter reasoning?
Hear what Jesus says.....Matthew 19
17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
18"Which ones?" the man inquired.
Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,'and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'

AM, does those verses mention anything about any condemnation of musical instruments?
Is there condemnation anywhere in the NT for instruments of music?
Would you condemn something simply because there is no mention of it's use in the NT?
Would that also go with the PA system that you use for announcements in the church, preaching the Word, amplifying the song leader's voice? It isn't mentioned as being used anywhere in the NT either. And yes, AM, it IS tradition because the manner in which we worship God today is far far different than the way the apostles and the first church did. Is tradition wrong? No.....UNLESS it becomes spoken of as the ONLY WAY to worship our Lord.
David was not a nice person. Adulterer, murderer and he was over the top self-centered. Yet God loved him. David was King of a powerful nation, and he answered to know one. If he wanted to take someone's wife and then kill the husband because of protest, it was done and it was legal. People would throw themselves at the foot of the king and the king could use them in anyway he wanted. David found God and worshipped him as he, the king, was worshipped. He sacrificed animals. Wanted to build a temple to God. His Psalms descibed how he worshipped God:

Psalm 149:3
Let them praise his name in the dance: Let them sing praises unto him with timbrel(tambourine)
and harp.

In Contrast, Jesus was a king and treated people differently. We agree that Jesus never abused an individual for his desire, the point Jesus treated people differently than did David.

Jesus's worship to God did not have dance, timbrel or harp. And he was the sacrifice. Jesus is trying to get us to turn away from how David lived his life and worshipped. When the limits of our languages are stretched to the greatest degree and the concept not conveyed, the only way to communicate thoughts are by an example. The rearing of children is often done by example due to their immaturity and lack of understanding, which is alot like people dealing with spiritual issues. Thus Jesus came and gave us an example of how things should be with God. A dramatic and different way to the way things were being done in his time. Honestly, as a follower of Christ I will adhere to every aspect of his life. I will not be coereced into thinking that there are options to the worship of God. Jesus could have danced, he could have played a harp, but he did not. I hope we can discuss why he did not do these things sometime, yet if I boldly state that I am a follower of Christ, how could I do things any other way? I have trust in him.

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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

November 1st, 2010, 4:32 am #25

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Just wondering why you referenced that particular passage as being in the context of worship. Isn't the issue with instrumental music associated with its use in the assembly of the saints during singing?

-- David was not dealing with singing in the gathering of saints.
-- It was David, the MUSICIAN, who invented instruments of music (Amos 6:5).
-- It was David (not God) who ordained musical instruments while king of Israel (II Chron. 29:27).
-- "Praise him with" came from David, the skilled musician, not God.

Would you clarify your stance that Psalm 150 is somehow giving New Testament Christians permission or authority to "worship" God with musical devices? Sounds like a faulty assumption on man's part.[/color]
Most people must go outside the New Testament to "justify" the use of IM in Christian worship; either that or resort to the fallacious excuse of "God didn't say not to," a phrase that appears nowhere in the New Testament.
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Dave
Dave

November 1st, 2010, 4:34 am #26

So you don't believe that with Jesus you clearly understood everything about Him?
Interesting......

I did not state what I understood or did not understand about Jesus. That is two times you have stated things I did not state. I can see where you could easily be mislead into believing things that are not rooted in the truth.

To believe that one clearly understands God would be an indication of narcissism. The most obvious examples of narcissism are found in: CEO's of large corporations, Hollywood Actors and ministers of large churches, of which I am not.
AM, you say you did not state what you understood about Jesus?
Did you not say...."I am sure in days to come we will understand why Jesus did not use musical instruments to worship God."
When you said that, I took it to CLEARLY mean that Jesus was easily understood to those who followed Him. Do we need to understand WHY Jesus did not use musical instruments? That is the whole point. It DID NOT MATTER with Jesus. If He didn't make it an issue, why should we?
That is what is clearly understood about Jesus. You made the point without knowing it. Nothing new AM. People do that every day. It doesn't have to be a narcissistic tendency to know what God is thinking......we have 66 books that speak of God thoroughly to let us KNOW how He loved, rebuked, disciplined mankind.
Do we know what God will do in 5 minutes or even in 5 seconds? Of course not.
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AM
AM

November 1st, 2010, 3:22 pm #27

Here is a great example of proof-texting. You take a verse "out of context" to "prove" a point that the text is not actually saying.

1 Corinthians 13:1 - "If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal."

The context of this verse is not using these instruments for worship, but just in general, whereas Psalm 150:5 is in the context of worship.

Psalm 150:5

"praise him with the clash of cymbals, praise him with resounding cymbals."

-Sonny
The statement was not about worship as it was an example of how Paul viewed an instrument. Paul could have described the worthlessness of people's actions without love as a "cart that has square wheels". Yet Paul used the lowest imaginable abstract image he could to describe those with out love. The point is Paul did not have a favorable opinion of the noise of instruments. Why the question about worship and instruments?

If Paul viewed musical instruments as a God given tool that actually promoted good and the love of God, would he have used such a derogatory comment about the noise they make? Honestly nowhere in the Bible will be found a passage that says God spoke through a trumpet or a clarinet......
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

November 1st, 2010, 6:19 pm #28

It is true: the most perfect example Paul could find to ridicule speaking in tongues other people did not understand was the use of "lifeless Instrumentals." Lifeless means "without breath." His use of "carnal weapon" has the same "making war" image: "Hoplon" identifies a round bronze shield which made "clanging brass" sounds.


Last edited by Ken.Sublett on November 1st, 2010, 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Dave
Dave

November 2nd, 2010, 12:03 am #29

The statement was not about worship as it was an example of how Paul viewed an instrument. Paul could have described the worthlessness of people's actions without love as a "cart that has square wheels". Yet Paul used the lowest imaginable abstract image he could to describe those with out love. The point is Paul did not have a favorable opinion of the noise of instruments. Why the question about worship and instruments?

If Paul viewed musical instruments as a God given tool that actually promoted good and the love of God, would he have used such a derogatory comment about the noise they make? Honestly nowhere in the Bible will be found a passage that says God spoke through a trumpet or a clarinet......
AM,
If not a clanging cymbal, then what? Please come up with a better analogy than Paul?

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AM
AM

November 2nd, 2010, 1:39 am #30

Where do you find scripture to argue my point? If you do not find something that states a cymbal is good for worship, other than it is your and your peacher's preference, I will not converse with you any longer. You have no desire to promote good and help others learn and are shallow with you responses.

I will give you a hint- the only other places in the Bible where cymbals are mentioned are in the Old Testament. Well before our Savior and Paul were on the earth.
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