Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

October 31st, 2010, 2:57 am #11

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave,

Jesus did not make instrumental music an issue because he never brought up (commanded or ensampled) the use of musical devices [as well as other idolatrous objects] in the first place. And because he made no mention of it does not give you permission to concoct or invent something that's self-pleasing and enjoyable and, then, persuade yourself and others that your extraneous invention or discovery is pleasing and acceptable to God.[/color]
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Anonymous
Anonymous

October 31st, 2010, 3:25 am #12

One good point that AM made is that with Jesus you clearly understood/understand everything about Him.
If there was something that He didn't like you knew/know it. Did He ever make instrumental music an issue? No, and you had better not either.
As long as we worship in Truth and Spirit our worship is accepted by God. Praise teams.....a capella.....instruments of music......clapping.......is of no issue......it is HOW we worship our God in our hearts.
Are you wiser than our King? Would you speak in place of Jesus, since He would not on such issues?
Surely not!
Praise teams.....a capella.....instruments of music......clapping.......is of no issue......it is HOW we worship our God in our hearts.

"HOW" is given by example. The rest is Human preference. We can agree that Jesus is our example and when we are leading a lost soul to God, our only lesson can be to teach what Jesus did when he was before God. There is no preference or options. Do you think Jesus's example is just an option for a deeper more effective marketing campaign? Or is it something we can passively acknowledge and call it Christian if we can humanly and polictical find it comfortable? Once again, there is nothing to point to in the Bible, in the life of Jesus, that would suggest external worship of God.

Where did Jesus Speak of Praise teams? I have a child that is sad because there is a feeling of inadequacy and rejection due to the older people have microphones and sit on the front row. The lesson, I give to my child is that these people do not understand the spirit in young or lost and that God's people do not need a microphone. Of course I reference the Prayer at the temple when Jesus stated that the person praying, wants to be seen before men and not be humble before God. I also teach that these people are lost too and we should help them find God as we also search. Yet, why would they, once again, want to be recognized before men as something more reverant?
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

October 31st, 2010, 7:45 am #13

One good point that AM made is that with Jesus you clearly understood/understand everything about Him.
If there was something that He didn't like you knew/know it. Did He ever make instrumental music an issue? No, and you had better not either.
As long as we worship in Truth and Spirit our worship is accepted by God. Praise teams.....a capella.....instruments of music......clapping.......is of no issue......it is HOW we worship our God in our hearts.
Are you wiser than our King? Would you speak in place of Jesus, since He would not on such issues?
Surely not!
Dave wrote to AM: "Are you wiser than our King? Would you speak in place of Jesus, since He would not on such issues? Surely not!"

We can ask Dave the same question: Would Dave assume (speak where Jesus did not) that because "Jesus didn't say not to," then it is permissible to have instruments in worship? Dave had better not! Since we are told the kind of music to use (vocal), then ADDING IM is speaking where Jesus has not. It's as simple as that.
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AM
AM

October 31st, 2010, 2:03 pm #14

I am curious as to why people in the New church of Christ see those of us in the Traditional church of Christ not acceptable to speak to what seems to be wrong in the worship of God, as we follow the patterns of Jesus Christ. Looking to where the story begins with the Jewish nation and King David, who was a musician, played a harp, wrote music in his worship to God and established the laws for his kingdom, we could see a contrast. The King's laws were not beneficial to the masses and basically made an elitist class, that left people out (if they were not born a Jew). Jesus came along and loved all people the same, unlike the previous king. Jesus's worship to God, was totally different to the way David worshipped God. There are alot of records to show David worshipped God with music(Psalms)yet there is not one record that Jesus worshipped God with music. It would just follow that if the Bible was written to include such detail about music in the Old Testament, would it not point out the same with Jesus? What example should we follow, David's or Jesus? There in would the answer to our spiritual nature that Jesus helps us recognize, which uses no external form of music.
It comes down to calling oneself a follower of Christ example or not a follower of that example. All modern churches seem to want to be all inclusive of people, what seems to make problems is the example we use to call ourselves Christian. The tradition, that the progressive church goers find less than a desirable form of worship, may be more of the pattern Jesus put forth for worship and not just tradition itself.

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Anonymous
Anonymous

October 31st, 2010, 6:55 pm #15

"

We can ask Dave the same question: Would Dave assume (speak where Jesus did not) that because "Jesus didn't say not to," then it is permissible to have instruments in worship? Dave had better not! Since we are told the kind of music to use (vocal), then ADDING IM is speaking where Jesus has not. It's as simple as that.

William Crump, I realize that is has been a while since you have been out of college, so let me explain some logic, and profile YOUR illogical reasoning. People like you, William, believe that logic doesn't apply to them. For a reality check.....most people like you have their own rules for logic......speaking of reality check.....that would do you a bit of good.
William Crump said "Since we are told the kind of music to use (vocal), then ADDING IM is speaking where Jesus has not. It's as simple as that."

Logically speaking, whether we use an instrument or not, as long as the singing is accomplished we are acting on the command TO SING. The instrument will ONLY accompany the singing. It neither takes place of or prohibits the singing.
Now, William says that an instrument is ADDING to that which is called for in Scripture.
Let's now apply that to what is called for when we are commanded to GO and teach the world about Jesus.
Matthew 28
9Therefore GO and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
The only examples we have of to "GO" in the NT is by foot, animals, and boat.
So if we, today, use a plane, a car, the internet, or anything else not used by the first century church, then by William's example we are going BEYOND what it is called for in the Scriptures.
In the NT church, instrumental music being used to accompany the singing isn't spoken of, so by William's call, we shouldn't use it.
In the NT church, the internet isn't spoken of to GO to teach the world about Christ, but yet that is ok with those who use this evil concerned members site to promote hate.
Do you see a double standard here?
Good! Because that is what they want to employ here....a double standard to protect a tradition.

AM,
It seems to me that you are wrong when you say that "Jesus's worship to God, was totally different to the way David worshipped God."
Why is that wrong. Why was David loved by God?
Acts 13
22After removing Saul, he made David their king. He testified concerning him: 'I have found David son of Jesse a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.'
Why AM?
Because Jesus taught that the heart meant everything in worship to His Father. David knew that. That is why he not only praised God with his words, but also his talent of playing and singing.
He used ALL of his heart and soul to worship God. He was a lot different than most kings.
Am, also with your reasoning about why the OT spoke of instrument but not the NT.......how about another counter reasoning?
Hear what Jesus says.....Matthew 19
17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
18"Which ones?" the man inquired.
Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,'and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'

AM, does those verses mention anything about any condemnation of musical instruments?
Is there condemnation anywhere in the NT for instruments of music?
Would you condemn something simply because there is no mention of it's use in the NT?
Would that also go with the PA system that you use for announcements in the church, preaching the Word, amplifying the song leader's voice? It isn't mentioned as being used anywhere in the NT either. And yes, AM, it IS tradition because the manner in which we worship God today is far far different than the way the apostles and the first church did. Is tradition wrong? No.....UNLESS it becomes spoken of as the ONLY WAY to worship our Lord.

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AM
AM

October 31st, 2010, 6:58 pm #16

One good point that AM made is that with Jesus you clearly understood/understand everything about Him.
If there was something that He didn't like you knew/know it. Did He ever make instrumental music an issue? No, and you had better not either.
As long as we worship in Truth and Spirit our worship is accepted by God. Praise teams.....a capella.....instruments of music......clapping.......is of no issue......it is HOW we worship our God in our hearts.
Are you wiser than our King? Would you speak in place of Jesus, since He would not on such issues?
Surely not!
"One good point that AM made is that with Jesus you clearly understood/understand everything about Him."

I did not make that point. Therefore your point is not validated by my statement, nor is your statement valid at all.

As others on this site, try validating your thoughts and statements with Jesus, not another poster.
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Dave
Dave

November 1st, 2010, 12:34 am #17

AM,
So you don't believe that with Jesus you clearly understood everything about Him?
Interesting......


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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

November 1st, 2010, 12:45 am #18

"

We can ask Dave the same question: Would Dave assume (speak where Jesus did not) that because "Jesus didn't say not to," then it is permissible to have instruments in worship? Dave had better not! Since we are told the kind of music to use (vocal), then ADDING IM is speaking where Jesus has not. It's as simple as that.

William Crump, I realize that is has been a while since you have been out of college, so let me explain some logic, and profile YOUR illogical reasoning. People like you, William, believe that logic doesn't apply to them. For a reality check.....most people like you have their own rules for logic......speaking of reality check.....that would do you a bit of good.
William Crump said "Since we are told the kind of music to use (vocal), then ADDING IM is speaking where Jesus has not. It's as simple as that."

Logically speaking, whether we use an instrument or not, as long as the singing is accomplished we are acting on the command TO SING. The instrument will ONLY accompany the singing. It neither takes place of or prohibits the singing.
Now, William says that an instrument is ADDING to that which is called for in Scripture.
Let's now apply that to what is called for when we are commanded to GO and teach the world about Jesus.
Matthew 28
9Therefore GO and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."
The only examples we have of to "GO" in the NT is by foot, animals, and boat.
So if we, today, use a plane, a car, the internet, or anything else not used by the first century church, then by William's example we are going BEYOND what it is called for in the Scriptures.
In the NT church, instrumental music being used to accompany the singing isn't spoken of, so by William's call, we shouldn't use it.
In the NT church, the internet isn't spoken of to GO to teach the world about Christ, but yet that is ok with those who use this evil concerned members site to promote hate.
Do you see a double standard here?
Good! Because that is what they want to employ here....a double standard to protect a tradition.

AM,
It seems to me that you are wrong when you say that "Jesus's worship to God, was totally different to the way David worshipped God."
Why is that wrong. Why was David loved by God?
Acts 13
22After removing Saul, he made David their king. He testified concerning him: 'I have found David son of Jesse a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.'
Why AM?
Because Jesus taught that the heart meant everything in worship to His Father. David knew that. That is why he not only praised God with his words, but also his talent of playing and singing.
He used ALL of his heart and soul to worship God. He was a lot different than most kings.
Am, also with your reasoning about why the OT spoke of instrument but not the NT.......how about another counter reasoning?
Hear what Jesus says.....Matthew 19
17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
18"Which ones?" the man inquired.
Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,'and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'

AM, does those verses mention anything about any condemnation of musical instruments?
Is there condemnation anywhere in the NT for instruments of music?
Would you condemn something simply because there is no mention of it's use in the NT?
Would that also go with the PA system that you use for announcements in the church, preaching the Word, amplifying the song leader's voice? It isn't mentioned as being used anywhere in the NT either. And yes, AM, it IS tradition because the manner in which we worship God today is far far different than the way the apostles and the first church did. Is tradition wrong? No.....UNLESS it becomes spoken of as the ONLY WAY to worship our Lord.
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave is never tired of: "Scripture does not say 'NOT TO'; therefore, God authorizes it."

Dave looks for "specifics" -- only when they favor his fallacious logic.

Based on Dave's fallacious logic -- it is OK to worship the Virgin Mary.

How can that be?

Well, it's really that simple. Just base it on Dave's erroneous premise: that the Scripture does NOT say "NOT TO." Where that's applicable to instrumental music being "NOT FORBIDDEN"; it is applicable also to the worship of the Virgin Mary being 'NOT FORBIDDEN."

"Instrumental music" is a very specific element or component.

"The Virgin Mary" is also a very specific element or component.

Right?

Right![/color]
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Joined: October 7th, 2010, 12:36 am

November 1st, 2010, 1:48 am #19

AM,
So you don't believe that with Jesus you clearly understood everything about Him?
Interesting......

Well, would it be fair or unfair to say that in 1 Corinthians 13:1 Paul draws a contrast?

http://mw2.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/contrast

TY and lots of love to all.

church affiliation - church in the woods (wilderness)
ISAIAH 1:17
learn to do right!
Seek justice,
encourage the oppressed.
Defend the cause of the fatherless,
plead the case of the widow.
Song of Solomon -http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se ... ersion=KJV

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Joined: October 7th, 2010, 12:36 am

November 1st, 2010, 1:57 am #20

AM,
So you don't believe that with Jesus you clearly understood everything about Him?
Interesting......

What is "Biblically prescribed worship?

Biblically prescribed worship, (e.x. Exclusive Psalmody, A Cappella Singing, The Lord's Supper, Baptism) also known as the regulative principle of worship(*) or RPW is the historical Calvinist teaching on how the second commandment(**) and therefore the Bible orders public worship. This principle teaches us that a command or approved example from the Bible is NEEDED for any activity to be included in worship.

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=n ... of+worship

<i></i>http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=n ... ommandment
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