NASHVILLE TENNESSEAN - Christians must 'let go' some beliefs for sake of peace, theologian

NASHVILLE TENNESSEAN - Christians must 'let go' some beliefs for sake of peace, theologian

David Rhoades
David Rhoades

November 29th, 2006, 6:27 pm #1

"We need to forsake the Christendom model," Camp said. "The most basic Christian commitment … is that we say we believe in the Lordship of Jesus. But, if we claim that, how can a Muslim or Jew trust us, if we say Jesus is the Lord of all Lords?"

Co-sponsored by the First Amendment Center at Vanderbilt University, the daylong conference was prompted by a desire to begin a dialogue about global religious conflict.

"We felt like the larger community is calling for this," said Larry Bridgesmith, executive director of Lipscomb's newly established Institute for Conflict Management.

http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll ... /611290429
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

November 29th, 2006, 7:04 pm #2

David you missed out on Luny U's Bible class where we heard Jesus say:

I came to bring peace, not a sword?

How can such people eat and defecate?

I have a better solution which the Restorers would accept:

To make peace with Jews and Muslims quit teaching, beginning at Luny U in about 1942 that there be THREE GOD persons. You cannot do anything but bring on hate and the urge to kill you when you spend megabucks preaching POLYTHEISM.

Next, tell the Muslims that "we do NOT believe in instrumental music or even that charismatic, girly harmony." The worship wars in Africa have been brought on by charismatic music and the "territorial imperative."

Nextly, tell them that the church is a SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE and all we want to do is to read and dialog the Word of God and not even DISCUSS the diversities of Romans 14.

Then, tell them that women are NOT to take stand up, speak out roles in the assembly.

Finally, pledge that as faithful Bible and history believers when we come into your country we WILL NOT teach them the LAW OF GIVING.

Jesus had that plan. However, this looks like the emerging of the Kenites or Esau race which brough wine, women and music into the Jerusalem Temple. Some of the PhDuh's are pushing to restore the Old Testament for a pattern for faith and practice.

The very meaning of CONFLICT RESOLUTION is compromise: I win, YOU LOSE. That is the Driving Purpose of the new President who firstly asks where we want to "continue to be identified with churches of Christ." Well, you don't HAVE to: you can just STEAL the property of widows.

Judas had a plan: Triumph over JUST JESUS and there would be "peace in our time." I can hardly NOT throw up at such Hegelian treachery. If we give up the uniqueness of Jesus then no doubt the MUSLIMS will lay down their arms!
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Neal James
Neal James

November 29th, 2006, 7:28 pm #3

"We need to forsake the Christendom model," Camp said. "The most basic Christian commitment … is that we say we believe in the Lordship of Jesus. But, if we claim that, how can a Muslim or Jew trust us, if we say Jesus is the Lord of all Lords?"

Co-sponsored by the First Amendment Center at Vanderbilt University, the daylong conference was prompted by a desire to begin a dialogue about global religious conflict.

"We felt like the larger community is calling for this," said Larry Bridgesmith, executive director of Lipscomb's newly established Institute for Conflict Management.

http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll ... /611290429
After being associated with Lipscomb for 5 decades I am ashamed at what I'm hearing these days. Can the powers that be not teach the Scriptures and let the chips fall where they may? Is the Bible not the miracle of the ages and the answer for all adversaries? Would any intelligent person say that the Koran is in any respect to be compared with the Scriptures? I learned a long time ago that when you get into a useless discussion you will waste valuable time and compromise your aims, goals and objectives. Why doesn't Lipscomb show some "David Lipscomb" quality by preparing their trusting students to exalt Jesus Christ as the "way, truth and life?" I'll be waiting. / Sincerely / Neal James
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John
John

November 30th, 2006, 2:01 pm #4

"We need to forsake the Christendom model," Camp said. "The most basic Christian commitment … is that we say we believe in the Lordship of Jesus. But, if we claim that, how can a Muslim or Jew trust us, if we say Jesus is the Lord of all Lords?"

Co-sponsored by the First Amendment Center at Vanderbilt University, the daylong conference was prompted by a desire to begin a dialogue about global religious conflict.

"We felt like the larger community is calling for this," said Larry Bridgesmith, executive director of Lipscomb's newly established Institute for Conflict Management.

http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll ... /611290429
I think it would be beneficial to read Dr. Camp's response to the article.

Theologian disputes how article described his talk

It should make clear that the newspaper misrepresented his statements.
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

November 30th, 2006, 3:01 pm #5

"We need to forsake the Christendom model," Camp said. "The most basic Christian commitment … is that we say we believe in the Lordship of Jesus. But, if we claim that, how can a Muslim or Jew trust us, if we say Jesus is the Lord of all Lords?"

Co-sponsored by the First Amendment Center at Vanderbilt University, the daylong conference was prompted by a desire to begin a dialogue about global religious conflict.

"We felt like the larger community is calling for this," said Larry Bridgesmith, executive director of Lipscomb's newly established Institute for Conflict Management.

http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll ... /611290429
Allah is NOT Jehovah: There are many elohim but only ONE Lord (Jehovah). Allah is the MOON goddess and part of the religion which existed thousands of years before Mohammed. This was the prevailing religion of Babylonia when God's PATTERNISM was to separate Abraham, his family and disciples. The tablets of the area give a written history some 2 to 3 three thousand years older than Moses.

Because of the musical idolatry of the alway-pagan TRIAD at Mount Sinai God abandoned them to Sabazian (Acts 7 and many Old Testament accounts). At the same time, the "civilians" were quarantined to the Qahal, synagogue or church in the wilderness to keep them out of Jerusalem the ONE PLACE ONLY where this abandonment was permitted. Plutarch defining "what God is Worshipped by the Jews" notes:
  • <font color=blue>22. The Korybantes are variously described. Their cult was identified or closely allied to that of the Kabeirian divinities, and that of the Great Mother. It was celebrated in the islands of the Aegean Sea and in Phygia. Music, dancing, processions, and ecstatic frenzy were characteristics.
    23. Sabazios, Sabaoth, or Sabbat, the god of the Planet Saturn, was better known as Bacchus or Dionysos, and was also styled in Semitic countries</font>
Later, the Israelite elders demanded a king like the nations and God knew that it was so they could worship like the nations. The kings would enslave the people and lead them into the delayed captivity and death in Syria and Babylon. The nations were the GOYIM which meant that the lost Jews wanted to worship like the nations. That is why the temple was more devoted to idolatry than God. After all, God gave David a Jebusite high place to make alternative sacriifices.

<font color=blue>The Canaanites were under Assyro-Babylonian dominance from 3000 to 1700 BCE. Even by circa 1400 BCE, their influence was still so great that all correspondence with Egypt and the Pharaoh was conducted in Babylonian, and the name of the moon-god Sin formed the basis for the Canaanite names Sinai and the wilderness of SIN.

"Allah" is a pre-Islamic name . . . corresponding to the Babylonian Bel' (Encyclopedia of Religion, I:117 Washington DC, Corpus Pub., 1979).</font>

This is the moon goddess Allah with her hands on the backs of 2 leopards. This statue was found in Catal Huyuk, Turkey,near the city of Ephesus. Of course, the people in control in Jerusalem were NOT Israelites and Jesus refused to speak the good news except in parables (fools most "christians"). John refused to baptize them and identified the as a generation or RACE of vipers. The offspring of Abraham through Hagar are identified with Egypt, Mount Sinai, Jerusalem and Sodom (John 18).

<font color=blue>BEL:(Akkadian), Sumerian Enlil, Mesopotamian god of the air and a member of the triad of gods completed by Anu (Sumerian: An) and Ea (Enki). Enlil meant Lord Wind: both the hurricane and the gentle winds of spring were thought of as the breath issuing from his mouth, and eventually as his word or command. [Ea is the post-flood LAMECH and the 'patron god of music' among other things]

The crescent moon and the star with it, that has penetrated even Islam, are associated with the worship. Jones and Pennick (A History of Pagan Europe, Routledge, London and New York, 1995, pp. 77 ff) notes that the crescent and star motif of Islam recalls the worship of the Moon God Sin, who had already subsumed the worship of the three goddesses Allat, Al-Uzzah and Manat.</font>

Stephen was murdered in part for exposing the mostly-Arab or Canaanite sects in Jerusalem as "predestinated" at Mount Sinai because of musical idolatry of the trinity. He further connected this to the worship in Israel (Amos 5-9; Isa 5 etc) and confirms that the temple was a concession for the CIVIL LEADER, DAVID in an unlawful Monarchy NOT CONNECTED to Gibeon and the Tabernacle. Like the modern apostate church, foreigners or mercinary Jews imported Arabs and displaced most of the Jews who would CONVERT to Zeus-Dionysus worship including "wine, women and song" including prostitutes and Sodomites into the holy places.

<font color=blue>To this day, the star of the god Remphan or Kaiwan or Chiun stands on the Israeli flag as the star of David which it is not. It and the crescent moon stand on the flag of Islam also, symbolising the morning star of the planet which is the god of this world (2Cor. 4:4). It is of note that the terms Kaiwan/Kiyyun and Remphan are understood to be interchangeable from New Testament and Old Testament. The LXX renders the text the tabernacle of Moloch and the star of your god Raephan (Raiphan) (cf. Brentons translation of the LXX).

The Soncino commentary sides with the identification of the deities as the Assyrian Siccuth and Kaiwan, the latter being Saturn [Chaldee 666]. The booth (Succoth) of the deity associated with Moloch (LXX) can only be the concept of the moon-god, as the booth is the symbol for the concealment of the New Moon when the moon enters its booth and is concealed. The observation is done to note when the deity emerges and that is evidenced by the crescent as the upturned horns of the calf. </font>

Both Judaism and Islam were Sabazian and are regulated by the Moon rather than the creator of the moon. They continue in that which God abandoned them as a curse.

Imblichus wrote Of the Hebrew Kadeshim and the Eleusinian. <font color=blue>Thus "Bacchus was directly called upon," he says. The Sabazian worship was Sabbatic; the names Evius, or Hevius, and Luaios are identical with Hivite and Levite. The French name Louis is the Hebrew Levi; Iacchus again is Iao or Jehovah; and Baal or Adon, like Bacchus, was a phallic god. "Who shall ascend into the hill (the high place) of the Lord?" asks the holy king David, "who shall stand in the place of his Kadushu [[Heb char]]"? (Psalms xxiv. 3). Kadesh may mean in one sense to devote, hallow, sanctify, and even to initiate or to set apart; but it also means the ministers of lascivious rites (the Venus-worship) and the true interpretation of the word Kadesh is bluntly rendered in Deuteronomy xxiii. 17; Hosea iv. 14; and Genesis xxxviii. </font>

We have come to the end of the circle where the "serpent bites its tail" in the symbolism of the Devil. John identifies those who have PROCURED musical worship teams or use instruments as SORCERERS under the Mother of Harlots. His symbol of the Devil who unleashes the LOCUSTS or muses from hell is Apollo who had many Seeker Centers.
  • <font color=blue>Apollo and Artemis are the mystic sun and the higher occult moon (SD 2:771). Apollo stands for order, justice, law, and purification by penance. His attribute as a punisher of evil is shown by his bow, with which as an infant he slew Python. He is the deity who wards off evil; the healer, father of Aesculapius and often identified with him; and the god of divination, associated especially with the Oracle at Delphi.

    The other principal seat of his worship was at Delos, his birthplace. He was also the patron of song and music, of new civic foundations, and protector of crops and flocks. His lyre is the sacred heptachord or septenary, seen in the sevenfold manifestations of the Logos in the universe and man; he is also the sun with its seven planets. He answers in some respects to the Hindu Indra and Karttikeya and in others to the Christian archangel Michael; Janus was the Roman god of light.

    Abaddon 'abaddon (Hebrew) [from the verbal root 'abad to perish, be cut off] Destruction, abyss; the region of the dead, synonym of She'ol in the Old Testament. Equivalent to the Greek apollyon (destruction, laying waste -- Rev 9:11). Thus Abaddon, Apollyon, Hades, and Orcus all signify the underworld -- the kama-loka or region of disintegrating "shells," human or other.</font>
This is the same meaning of the word SERVICE which the Musical Warrior Levites under the KING and COMMANDERS of the army (not priests) provided a loud crashing sound during slaughter and burning of innocent "types" of Jesus Christ.

Islam is built on the sword just as the INFILTRATING and DIVERTING of colleges and churches is violent if "you don't get over it or get out." Rejoice: you are watching prophecy unfold and Jesus gave us the MARK when He said that Doctors of the Law Take Away the Key to Knowledge. That is what they DO. That is their PROFESSION. Paul outlawed them by demanding that we use THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN or SCRIPTURE to speak with ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH to educate, glorify God and keep the peace.
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Jimmy Wren
Jimmy Wren

November 30th, 2006, 10:04 pm #6

Dr. Camp was quoted as saying: "Many have expressed feelings of dismay in response to the story, feelings I also shared when I read the report."(End of quote.)

Sometimes we don't realize just how far from the bible we are until those around us speak up. Thankfully Dr. Camp said that he shared those same feelings when he read the report.

In Christ,
Jimmy
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

December 3rd, 2006, 7:34 pm #7

"We need to forsake the Christendom model," Camp said. "The most basic Christian commitment … is that we say we believe in the Lordship of Jesus. But, if we claim that, how can a Muslim or Jew trust us, if we say Jesus is the Lord of all Lords?"

Co-sponsored by the First Amendment Center at Vanderbilt University, the daylong conference was prompted by a desire to begin a dialogue about global religious conflict.

"We felt like the larger community is calling for this," said Larry Bridgesmith, executive director of Lipscomb's newly established Institute for Conflict Management.

http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll ... /611290429
Recently some items on TV reflected just how much Christianity is becoming more ecumenical.

One show about faiths featured a Muslim man and his Christian wife. The theme was about peace and harmony in religion, that people of different faiths can all get along. The Christian wife said that it didn't matter what one believed; it was only important what was in one's "heart." This implies that what one believes is not necessarily what lies in one's heart. This fallacious reasoning does not recognize that one's "heart" is the seat of one's beliefs. This reasoning also promotes the fallacious, ecumenical concept that all faiths and beliefs, Christian or not, lead to heaven or paradise. Christ never promoted ecumenism; He promoted one faith, one way, HIS way, no other way. Such a union of Muslim and Christian violates 2 Cor. 6:14 (KJV): "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? Some would then argue, "Muslims believe in God [whom they designate as 'Allah'] just like Christians do, and Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet." Yes, but the difference is that Muslims do not believe that Jesus IS God Incarnate, part of the Holy Trinity, Who died for the sins of the world; neither do Muslims believe Jesus as equating Himself with God when He said, "I and [my] Father are one" (John 10:30 KJV) or "Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?(John 14:9 KJV). Again, Jesus equates Himself with God the Father, a concept that Muslims reject.

The other item was a TV ad for the Universalist Church. It posed the premise that this church accepted people with different beliefs and then presented something like a motto of "different beliefs--one faith." Again, this ad not only promoted ecumenism but also implied that belief and faith are mutually exclusive. How can people believe a bunch of different doctrines and yet have the same "faith"? Those of one faith have one identical belief, that of the Word of God, for one's faith IS one's belief.
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

January 7th, 2007, 4:05 am #8

"We need to forsake the Christendom model," Camp said. "The most basic Christian commitment … is that we say we believe in the Lordship of Jesus. But, if we claim that, how can a Muslim or Jew trust us, if we say Jesus is the Lord of all Lords?"

Co-sponsored by the First Amendment Center at Vanderbilt University, the daylong conference was prompted by a desire to begin a dialogue about global religious conflict.

"We felt like the larger community is calling for this," said Larry Bridgesmith, executive director of Lipscomb's newly established Institute for Conflict Management.

http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll ... /611290429
<font size=3 color=indigo face=times new roman>You know … the new “Institute for Conflict Management” at Lipscomb University! Isn’t this an extension from Pepperdine University’ legal department? Wait! Wasn’t it the Tennessean [again!] that printed an article sometime in July 2001 which said that elders at Madison would bring in an “unbiased” mediator, Larry Sullivan, to resolve “the split within the church”? [Sullivan, with direct ties to Rick Warren’s Saddleback Community Church organization, was law professor of the Straus Institute for Dispute Resolution at Pepperdine—trained in using the Hegelian Dialectic technique, compromising by consensus, etc.]

And now Lipscomb leading an “interfaith conference” in Nashville?

The Christian Chronicle reports the following in printed form:
  • <font color=black size=4 face=times new roman>Lipscomb hosts interfaith talks”</font>

    <FONT size=3 color=black face=times new roman>By Bobby Ross Jr.
    The Christian Chronicle

    In many ways, Nashville, Tenn. — sometimes called the buckle of the Bible Belt — is Church of Christ country.

    Davidson County, home of Music City, has 106 congregations, according to the 2006 edition of Churches of Christ in the United States. Only Harris County, Texas, which includes Houston, boasts more congregations with 142.

    Among all religious groups, Davidson County’s roughly 40,000 Church of Christ members and children rank second to the Southern Baptists’ estimated 100,000 adherents there.

    But those numbers eschew the reality that Nashville has a large and growing immigrant population with 60 to 70 languages spoken in the city’s schools, said Randy Lowry, president of Lipscomb University. That reality means Nashville has become much more diverse, with increasing pockets of Hispanic Catholics and Sudanese Muslims, among others.

    “We could choose, I guess, not to ever talk to each other,” Lowry said. “Or we could choose to live in a safe and respectful environment, to at least know who each other is.”

    Lipscomb invited Muslim, Jewish and Catholic representatives to campus recently for “A Call to Conversation: An Invitation to Dialogue on Religious Conflict.” But the conference took a controversial turn after a front-page report in The Tennessean, Nashville’s major daily newspaper.</font>
The Christian Chronicle continues:
  • <font color=black size=4 face=times new roman>Interfaith conference at Lipscomb sparks a firestorm in Nashville</font>

    <FONT size=3 color=black face=times new roman>By Bobby Ross Jr.
    The Christian Chronicle

    When Lipscomb University hosted a recent interfaith conference on religious conflict, the event drew front-page coverage in The Tennessean, Nashville’s major daily newspaper.

    While Lipscomb had sought media attention for what Lowry deemed “a historic meeting for the city of Nashville,” the story represented anything but the kind of attention the university wanted — or needed.

    “Christians must ‘let go’ some beliefs for sake of peace, theologian says,” the Page 1 headline screamed.

    The article reported that Lee Camp, a Bible professor at Lipscomb, had said Christians must shed the idea that they need to promulgate a worldwide Christianity. “The most basic Christian commitment ... is that we believe in the Lordship of Jesus,” the story quoted Camp as saying. “But, if we claim that, how can a Muslim or Jew trust us, if we say Jesus is the Lord of all Lords?”

    As that day’s paper landed on driveways, a firestorm erupted in the Bible Belt city. Church of Christ members and the larger evangelical Christian community flooded Lipscomb with calls and e-mails of concern. In an era in which political correctness frowns on proclaiming Jesus as the only way to heaven, bloggers and others questioned whether Camp — and Lipscomb — had bought into an all-religions-are-equal brand of pluralism.

    While top Lipscomb officials swung quickly into damage-control mode, many who had attended the conference deluged The Tennessean with complaints that the story mispresented Camp’s comments and the point of the interfaith dialogue. The newspaper defended the accuracy of its story but took the unusual step of offering Camp unedited space in the next day’s edition to clarify what he said.

    “I was shocked when I saw the (original) article because it did not reflect anything I heard at the conference,” said Khaled Sakalla, secretary of the Islamic Center of Nashville and a panelist at the conference. “The way the article was published made it sound like you have to give up your faith to co-exist, which wasn’t anything close to what the conference was about.”

    Tim Alexander, minister of the Smith Springs Church of Christ in Antioch, Tenn., offered a similar assessment, saying Camp’s comments were “grossly misrepresented.” Alexander, who earned his bachelor’s degree at Harding University and a Master of Theological Studies degree from Vanderbilt Divinity School, said many liberal theologians believe interfaith dialogue requires “yielding on distinctives” and pretending all faiths are basically the same.

    But Alexander said Lipscomb — which he suggested has had a past reputation in the Nashville religious community as “rather closed-minded, rather insulated” — did not compromise at all by inviting dialogue with Muslims, Jews, Catholics, Buddhists and others.

    “Lipscomb is not shrinking back in any way from our Christian claims, but it is saying that a mature Christian knows how to dialogue and promote peace in that dialogue with religious neighbors,” Alexander said.

    Larry Bridgesmith, director of Lipscomb’s new Institute for Conflict Management, which hosted the event, said Camp was not referring to evangelism when he discussed backing away from promulgating a worldwide Christianity. Rather, Camp was critiquing an imperialistic or militaristic approach to faith, Bridgesmith said. “We, as children of God, are called to be peacemakers,” Bridgesmith said of the importance of the interfaith dialogue.

    In his clarifying statement to The Tennessean, Camp said he insisted in his lecture that Christians not discard what is important to them. “I believe and teach that Jesus is Lord of Lords and King of Kings,” he said.

    “This exclusive claim of the authority of Christ thus presents a problem for ‘conflict management.’ I went on to ask these questions: How can the Jew or Muslim trust us if we hold onto the exclusive Lordship of Jesus? Given that I refuse to deny the Lordship of Jesus, what can I or other Christians possibly contribute to peacemaking, whether global or local?”

    Among Camp’s ideas: By serving and loving all people. By showing the gracious, generous hospitality of Jesus. By letting go of any strategy that seeks to violently impose “Jesus is Lord” upon another.</font>
Here’s an important lesson for the “conflict resolution” professor—the secular justice system’s approach to conflict resolution is not the solution to “endevouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace” (Eph. 4:3). Unity in God’s family must be achieved first—by rejecting those who intrude, divide and acquire the church—before a Christian college should even host an “interfaith conference.” Otherwise, churches of Christ should not be involved in attempting to resolve “interfaith conflicts.” Ecumenism has never worked even among Protestant denominations. The Roman Catholic Church is not having successes in bringing the “lost sheep” [the Protestants] back into the fold, the “Mother Church.” And now … churches of Christ resolving “interfaith conflicts”? The university’s “School of Conflict Management”—if and when applied to “interfaith marriage”—must be a joke.

Donnie</font>
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

January 7th, 2007, 11:12 pm #9

Sounds like foul treachery and worse cowardise if you as me.

All kinds of people go to Liberty University and they are not so LIMP WRISTED that they teach ALL doctrines.
People from all over the world have always come to Lipscomb: so loyal leaders taught them the Bible
as it is written. If you go to a Christian church school you WILL NOT be taught the non-instrumental
position.

What a WONDERFUL evangelistic opportunity while they are training Missionaries!

No one doubts that when a lawyer CHANGE FACILITATOR came to Lipscomb that the
goal of the Directors was, as they boasted at ACU, of shedding the church of Christ ownership.

I remember coming to Tennessee in 1980 and hearing a professor say that they were
removing all of the old conservative preachers.

Don't ever believe that they intend to be lukewarm NEUTRAL. They, in fact have a more
legalistic form of theology than the most conservatives.

I don't see how people can continue to suck up air when they are so bent on betrayal. If they
ALREADY have all of those foreign students WHO is going to get suckered into the excuse that
they have to CHANGE to attract more students. Sounds like those who have outgrown their
facilities need to ADD INSTRUMENTS otherwise people won't attend.
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