Nashville School of Preaching and the Holy Spirit

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April 5th, 2012, 12:28 pm #11

...againm this has nothing to do with the doctrine of the trinity. You don't know what you are talking about, as usual.
"Anonymous" doesn't support his accusations with Biblical references. Saying Ken is wrong does not make "Anonymous" right.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

April 5th, 2012, 4:44 pm #12

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]You may have a point: "this has nothing to do with the doctrine of the trinity." Why? Because the trinity doctrine is NOT FOUND in the Bible.

John clearly explains the relationship between the Father and His Son. In John's account -- "that I am IN the Father, and the Father IN me" -- just where was/is the spirit of Jesus Christ?

Now, we know about the spirit of Jesus Christ or the spirit of God in: Philippians 1:9; Romans 8:9; I Peter 1:11. Find out and study these and other passages very carefully.[/color]
Donnie: John clearly explains the relationship between the Father and His Son. In John's account -- "that I am IN the Father, and the Father IN me" -- just where was/is the spirit of Jesus Christ?

Of the "different in some respects Comforter" Jesus said "I" will come to you. People have made a profession out of disputing the unique authority of "Jesus of Nazareth" and I have never found the "brotherhood" able to stomach quoting the punch line:

John 14:17 Even the Spirit OF truth; whom the world cannot receive,
because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him:
but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Donnie probably passed "remedial reading, grade 6" since he grasps that "Father-Son" dwells IN the obedient believer AND the obedient believer dwells IN Father-Son. The Holy (wholly) Spirit is not mentioned because Jesus made it clear that I WILL COME TO YOU.

John who named the Comforting Holy Spirit as Jesus Christ the Righteous says that if you DON'T grasp that ONE GOD and One Lord relationship you are an ANTI-CHRIST.

How many God Persons are there? This is final exam:

1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God,
and one mediator between God and men,
the man Christ Jesus;

The neo Trinitarians originating in Nashville and plaguing everyone means--in my opinion--based on the strong delusion patternism which produces Lying Wonders as in musical and theatrical performance--that those so deceived will never, can never confess their faults.

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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

April 6th, 2012, 1:20 am #13


http://www.piney.com/Nashville.School.o ... pirit.html

Seeing God as three "persons" each with their "centers of consciousness" and each given their own dispensation was invented by H. Leo Boles of David Lipscomb College (LU) and promoted by the Gospel Advocate and therefore the dogma of many churches of Christ.
<table width="90%" border="1" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="2"><tr><td valign="top">John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

</td><td valign="top">1John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. </td></tr><tr><td valign="top">John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter [parakletos], that he may abide with you for ever; </td><td valign="top">And if any man sin, we havean advocate [parakletos] with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous</td></tr><tr><td valign="top">John 14:17 Even the Spirit OF truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. </td><td valign="top">1John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. </td></tr><tr><td valign="top">John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you</td><td valign="top">1John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. </td></tr><tr><td valign="top">John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth
them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of
my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.</td><td valign="top">1John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar 
</td></tr><tr><td valign="top" width="50%">John 14:22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? </td><td valign="top">and the truth is not in him.  </td></tr><tr><td valign="top">John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words  </td><td valign="top">1John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby  we that we are in him.
</td></tr><tr><td valign="top">and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.</td><td valign="top">1John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
1John 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

</td></tr><tr><td valign="top">John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Fathers which sent me.</td><td valign="top">1John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. </td></tr><tr><td valign="top">John 14:25 These things have I spoken unto you,
 </td><td valign="top">1John 2:7 Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old
commandment which ye had from the beginning.  </td></tr><tr><td valign="top">being yet present with you. </td><td valign="top">The old commandment is the
</font><font color="#990000">word which ye have heard from the beginning.</td></tr><tr><td valign="top">John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the HolyGhost , whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
</td><td valign="top">1John 2:8 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is
true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true
light now shineth
.</td></tr><tr><td valign="top">The Spirit's Name will be Jesus Christ</td><td valign="top">1John 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. [trap or snare laid for an enemy]
</td></tr></table>
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Anonymous
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April 7th, 2012, 5:24 am #14

What's obvious is that you are confusing the Trinity with Tri-theism; but that's understandable coming from a guy whose dates on the Stone-Campbell movement are off by a hundred years or more.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

April 7th, 2012, 8:07 am #15

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Brian,

There is no confusion here between trinitarianism and tritheism. There are differences, but there is also commonness in both doctrines. Both teach that there are three separate persons or beings. That is not taught in the Scripture.

We can go for a lengthy discussion of the Trinity doctrine. But we can start with a simple premise -- by properly defining the word, the noun, the common/improper noun called "spirit." Let's expand that a bit to the expression "holy spirit" as it is commonly claimed that the "Holy Spirit of God" refers to the third person in the Trinity doctrine.

Would you be willing to accept the expressions [notice the capitalization for your benefit]:

(1) "the Spirit" and
(2) "the Holy Spirit" and
(3) "the Spirit OF God" and
(4) "the Holy Spirit OF God" and
(5) "the Spirit OF the Lord" and
(6) "the Spirit OF the Father" and
(7) "the Spirit OF Christ" and
(8) "the Spirit OF our God" and
(9) "the Spirit OF life in Christ Jesus"
(10) "the Spirit OF the living God"
(11) "the Spirit OF His Son"
(12) "the Spirit OF Jesus Christ"
(13) "the Spirit OF life from God"
(14) NOTE: The preposition "OF" denotes that from which anything proceeds or possession or ownership or "belonging to"

... are synonymous expressions that are commonly identified by Christendom as referring to the third person in the Trinity doctrine????

So, some of the simple questions for you at this point are as follows:

(1) What is the definition of the word "spirit"?
(2) Is "spirit" a noun -- a proper noun or common noun?
(3) Is the word "holy" a proper noun or an adjective in "holy spirit"?
(4) If Scripture teaches about "the spirit OF the Father" ...
(5) If Scripture teaches about "the spirit OF His Son" ...
(6) Does the Scripture teach about "the spirit OF the Holy Spirit"?
(7) Before we go any further, do you understand the question listed in items (4), (5) and (6)?
(8) In other words, (a) if the Father has a spirit and (b) if the Son has a spirit, (c) why would you say or not say that the Holy Spirit has a spirit?

Finally, in response to your comment about the Movement, truth is not only that the change agents are off but also that the change agents are the ones who are rewriting the history of the Restoration Movement.[/color]
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

April 7th, 2012, 3:29 pm #16

I have added this exchange to
The Nashville School of Preaching and The Holy Spirit

http://www.piney.com/Nashville.School.o ... pirit.html

Boy, am I glad that at least one other person out there understands that "Holy" is not the first name of a people named Holy Spirit.

If someone tried to separate MY spirit from ME I would probably protect myself. That may be why John said that if you deny the Father - Son relationship you are an ANTI-Christ And as they say, THAT'S a Salvation Issue!
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Joined: February 16th, 2012, 8:07 pm

April 7th, 2012, 5:34 pm #17

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Brian,

There is no confusion here between trinitarianism and tritheism. There are differences, but there is also commonness in both doctrines. Both teach that there are three separate persons or beings. That is not taught in the Scripture.

We can go for a lengthy discussion of the Trinity doctrine. But we can start with a simple premise -- by properly defining the word, the noun, the common/improper noun called "spirit." Let's expand that a bit to the expression "holy spirit" as it is commonly claimed that the "Holy Spirit of God" refers to the third person in the Trinity doctrine.

Would you be willing to accept the expressions [notice the capitalization for your benefit]:

(1) "the Spirit" and
(2) "the Holy Spirit" and
(3) "the Spirit OF God" and
(4) "the Holy Spirit OF God" and
(5) "the Spirit OF the Lord" and
(6) "the Spirit OF the Father" and
(7) "the Spirit OF Christ" and
(8) "the Spirit OF our God" and
(9) "the Spirit OF life in Christ Jesus"
(10) "the Spirit OF the living God"
(11) "the Spirit OF His Son"
(12) "the Spirit OF Jesus Christ"
(13) "the Spirit OF life from God"
(14) NOTE: The preposition "OF" denotes that from which anything proceeds or possession or ownership or "belonging to"

... are synonymous expressions that are commonly identified by Christendom as referring to the third person in the Trinity doctrine????

So, some of the simple questions for you at this point are as follows:

(1) What is the definition of the word "spirit"?
(2) Is "spirit" a noun -- a proper noun or common noun?
(3) Is the word "holy" a proper noun or an adjective in "holy spirit"?
(4) If Scripture teaches about "the spirit OF the Father" ...
(5) If Scripture teaches about "the spirit OF His Son" ...
(6) Does the Scripture teach about "the spirit OF the Holy Spirit"?
(7) Before we go any further, do you understand the question listed in items (4), (5) and (6)?
(8) In other words, (a) if the Father has a spirit and (b) if the Son has a spirit, (c) why would you say or not say that the Holy Spirit has a spirit?

Finally, in response to your comment about the Movement, truth is not only that the change agents are off but also that the change agents are the ones who are rewriting the history of the Restoration Movement.[/color]
This raises the question of who or what is "The angel of the Lord". By your reasoning, the angel is the Lord yet context clearly shows that the angel is a separate and different person than the Lord.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

April 7th, 2012, 7:07 pm #18

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]It depends on the definition of the word, along with the preposition "of" that indicates possession.

Both "spirit" and "angel" are nouns and entities. Both "belong to" the Lord. Both can be modified by an adjective, e.g., "holy," etc. On those points, I agree with you.

By definition, the word "spirit" as an entity is not a being. Throughout biblical history, events and occurrences, the word "spirit" has meant: "power," "breath," "wind," "mind," etc. For example: "[3] All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils" (Job 27:3). A "spirit" does not have a gender.

On the other hand, an "angel" is a being, a spiritual being [if that makes you happy]; nonetheless, a being.

Each one of us has a "spirit" -- whether holy or evil. But it doesn't mean that my spirit or your spirit is a separate being.

So, the "spirit OF the Lord" [a.k.a. "the spirit" or "the holy spirit" (which simply means "the spirit that is holy")] is the power or mind of God or Christ -- and is NOT a separate being.

Brian, I appreciate your spirit [pun intended?] of discourse this time. No animosity that I noticed. I agree with you on the related issue of "belongingness" or "possession" as to the use of the preposition "of." But, again, it goes back to the definition or identification of both nouns: (1) "spirit" as an entity meaning "power" or "wind" or "mind" vs. (2) "angel" as an entity that is a being.[/color]
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Joined: February 16th, 2012, 8:07 pm

April 7th, 2012, 10:20 pm #19

Remember the first premise: God is three persons. This means that the Father is not the Son; they are two distinct persons. It also means that the Father is not the Holy Spirit; they are two distinct persons as well.
The idea that the Holy Spirit is the force of God or the power of God is understandable but flawed because the New Testament says otherwise. There are several verses where the Holy Spirit is put in a coordinate relationship with the Father and the Son (Matt. 28:19; 1 Cor. 12:4-6; 2 Cor. 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2):since the Father and Son are both distinct persons, the coordinate expression strongly intimates that the Holy Spirit is a person also. Then there are places where the masculine pronoun he (Gk. ekeinos) is applied to the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 15:26; 16:13-14), which one would not expect from the rules of Greek grammar, for the word "spirit" (Gk. pneuma) is neuter, not masculine, and would ordinarily be referred to with the neuter pronoun ekeino. Moreover, the name counselor or comforter (Gk. parakletos) is a term commonly used to speak of a person who helps or gives comfort or counsel to another person or persons and is used of the Holy Spirit in John's gospel (14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:7).
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

April 7th, 2012, 11:59 pm #20

Brian,

I really appreciate you and one of the few times you've shown as being willing to discuss doctrinal differences. You brought up a very usual set of arguments that can be disproved very easily. Let me remind you again that the Trinity doctrine was invented by the Roman Catholic Church -- approved in the Council of Nicea. Doctrinally speaking, there are quite a few of the papal doctrines that the Protestant Churches have propagated. I think you should be one of those intelligent folks who would readily point out that the RCC is dominated by man-made traditions and creeds, not surprisingly, as the Roman government and paganism had so much influence upon what later became the ever-evolving Roman Catholic religion. Even the man-made tradition of the Trinity had its share of influence in various translations of the Bible, especially the New Testament. For example, even my beloved King James Version of 1611 did not escape from such an influence in its rendering of:

(1) the Holy Spirit OF the FATHER (GOD) or
(2) the Holy Spirit OF the SON, CHRIST (GOD) or
(3) [SADLY and ERRONEOUSLY] the Holy Sprit OF the HOLY SPIRIT (also GOD)

----------- oops!!! no. (3) sounds ODD ----------

. . . as being each a PERSON or BEING--clearly a papal influence. That's how you've come across the translation that the Holy Spirit OF GOD is masculine. (Translators have become obligated to identify the spirit of God as a "HE" -- which is a distortion.

[to be continued...]
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