Music in Worship-Jeff Walling

Bart
Bart

September 23rd, 2004, 2:58 am #1

As I read one post condemning Jeff Walling on his view that "music in worship is an gray area and one that is a matter or opinioin", I find myself disturbed. I mean ... isn't it? Can 2 people not disagree on this topic and still serve the same God? I am disturbed that one is comdemned for such a view. The whole argument presented in that posting was that "music in worship in not authorized". Well, now that you mention it, using a song book is not authorized. Using a pitch pipe to remind the song leader of the tune is not authorized. Meeting in Church Buildings is not "authorized" as the early church met in homes! Neither is mid-week bible study, and for the record, the passages we read in I Corinthians 11 where Jesus breaks the bread and passes the cup if from when Jesus instituted the Lords Suppper (Last Supper) on a THURSDAY night **NOT SUNDAY** (passover Thursday) before his crucifiction. I'm not arguing that either of these practices we have is wrong, just the opposite. But tell me, is Sunday night bible study "authorized"? Or did someone decide that once per week was not enough. Let me say that I have grown up in the Church of Christ, and been a member since my baptism at 12 years of age, and I frankly am not ready for them to roll in a piano or organ or guitar in for the Sunday worship, but all we've really got to go on is "sing and make melody in your heart to God". And you and I might not be able to do that with a piano "distracting you", but can you look at your buddy George who sings with the accompanyment of a piano and tell if he's "glorifying GOd in his heart" or not? What about your contemporary Christian musicians? Are they doing Satan's work by getting the message out there in verse with (for heavens sake) instruments in the background? But I read the NIV, which is apparently authored by Satan according to some of the posts on this site, so my thinking is all backwards, right. I just wish someone could answer all my points. Where in this chat room is the love that Christ talks about in His teaching?
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B
B

September 24th, 2004, 8:09 pm #2

If I can take a shot at this from 2 different directions.


Scriptural - The important one.

I won't start rattling them all off, because I know Ken will follow up with a multicolored, Brittanica sized response anyway. Let me say one thing, though. This non-instrumental worship is not something that the restoration movement guys just came up with in the 1800's. It has its root in scripture. We have become far too accepting of any variation and spin folks want to put on these issues. There is no New Testament pattern to support using instruments in worship. They are mentioned quite a bit in Psalms. I believe their absence from the NT is relevant (in every version). There is one Old Testament principle that I would like to see applied to our worship today. Followers of God in the OT wouldn't have dreamed of adding to or taking away from the example God put out there for them. Cain tried with his sacrifice. Nadab and Abihu tried and it didn't turn out too well. We should prepare ourselves for the possiblity that this actually DOES matter to God. The focus of worship is God, not us. I would imagine if God wanted the instruments, he would have asked for them. As for the songbooks and pitch pipes...it's apples and oranges.

Practical/Logical - Just think about it.

If it's about a desire to change the churches of Christ, there are PLENTY of denominations out there that already have instrumental music. Most of them differ with us on other significant points of scripture, but a few are pretty similar to us. Why do people want to force a change in the churches of Christ, when they can find a church that is already there? This to me is like the pro-abortion Catholics that get mad because the pope has taken a pro-life stance with the Catholic church. You can get mad if you want, but that is not what your church says. Period. Are you Catholic first or pro-abortion first. If it's about our condemning other denominations, we waste too much time on that as it is. Although God provides us with some good indicators of who's going to heaven and who isn't, he will not consult any of us on the eternal fate of Billy Graham or any other person. If we use that to help us decide who needs to be evangelized, it's a great help. If we use it to remind others that we're going to heaven and they're headed for hell, then shame on us. The reputation for thinking we are the only ones going to heaven has not served us very well over the years. (Then again, neither has the reputation for in-fighting). A reputation for thinking others are lost and actually trying to do something about it might work a little better.
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

September 27th, 2004, 6:35 am #3

As I read one post condemning Jeff Walling on his view that "music in worship is an gray area and one that is a matter or opinioin", I find myself disturbed. I mean ... isn't it? Can 2 people not disagree on this topic and still serve the same God? I am disturbed that one is comdemned for such a view. The whole argument presented in that posting was that "music in worship in not authorized". Well, now that you mention it, using a song book is not authorized. Using a pitch pipe to remind the song leader of the tune is not authorized. Meeting in Church Buildings is not "authorized" as the early church met in homes! Neither is mid-week bible study, and for the record, the passages we read in I Corinthians 11 where Jesus breaks the bread and passes the cup if from when Jesus instituted the Lords Suppper (Last Supper) on a THURSDAY night **NOT SUNDAY** (passover Thursday) before his crucifiction. I'm not arguing that either of these practices we have is wrong, just the opposite. But tell me, is Sunday night bible study "authorized"? Or did someone decide that once per week was not enough. Let me say that I have grown up in the Church of Christ, and been a member since my baptism at 12 years of age, and I frankly am not ready for them to roll in a piano or organ or guitar in for the Sunday worship, but all we've really got to go on is "sing and make melody in your heart to God". And you and I might not be able to do that with a piano "distracting you", but can you look at your buddy George who sings with the accompanyment of a piano and tell if he's "glorifying GOd in his heart" or not? What about your contemporary Christian musicians? Are they doing Satan's work by getting the message out there in verse with (for heavens sake) instruments in the background? But I read the NIV, which is apparently authored by Satan according to some of the posts on this site, so my thinking is all backwards, right. I just wish someone could answer all my points. Where in this chat room is the love that Christ talks about in His teaching?
Let me add to B’s comments: “As for the songbooks and pitch pipes...it's apples and oranges.” That’s a good analogy. I don’t hear the sound of the pitch pipe. Now, I’m curious to see someone use the pitch pipe throughout the singing of every hymn—has anyone thought about the feasibility of this? I imagine it would take years and years of practice and training to proficiently use the pitch pipe like an instrument while singing a hymn. Hmmm! The songbook does not sing nor create a sound or noise … well, unless I drop it when and while it’s all really quiet in the meeting place.

Bart has made a good point about meeting in church buildings as being authorized. Meeting in homes would be ideal. But I would like to know of homes big enough to accommodate hundreds, or even thousands, of members to fellowship one with another. Meanwhile, the scriptures speak of instances of expediency wherein principles or the truth is not violated. I wouldn’t be surprised if the early Christians met in the synagogues—Christ and the apostles certainly preached and taught in the synagogues.

Where is the authority for mid-week Bible study? Well, there is authority for studying the scriptures anytime. We are to exhort one another daily (Heb. 3:13). The early disciples at Berea searched the scriptures daily (Acts 17:10-11). And we know what “all scripture is” in II Timothy 3:16. I’m afraid we’re not even up to the task in our study of God’s word.

In regard to the observance of the Lord’s Supper, let’s just stay with Acts 20:7 as the disciples came to break bread “upon THE first day of THE week.” And with the evidences from the early writers of church history that Christians in the first century did observe the Lord’s Supper every first day of the week.

Yes, let’s stay with what you said that “but all we've really got to go on is ‘sing and make melody in your heart to God’"—no more, no less. Everything else is speculative in regard to “teaching and admonishing one another in psalms, hymns and spiritual songs.”

Donnie
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JD
JD

September 27th, 2004, 9:12 pm #4

You guys need to read ROMANS before you go spouting about DISPUTABLE matters that you hav opinions about, but no facts.

I guess that God ENJOYED instruments, but now DOESN'T.....

Your argument about pitch pipes and song books is LAUGHABLE. Give me a BREAK!!! Either they are WRONG or they are OK based upon your original argument about instruments. No "authorization" NO GO! Be consistent will you? I am.

JD
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Jason
Jason

March 1st, 2005, 6:50 pm #5

As I read one post condemning Jeff Walling on his view that "music in worship is an gray area and one that is a matter or opinioin", I find myself disturbed. I mean ... isn't it? Can 2 people not disagree on this topic and still serve the same God? I am disturbed that one is comdemned for such a view. The whole argument presented in that posting was that "music in worship in not authorized". Well, now that you mention it, using a song book is not authorized. Using a pitch pipe to remind the song leader of the tune is not authorized. Meeting in Church Buildings is not "authorized" as the early church met in homes! Neither is mid-week bible study, and for the record, the passages we read in I Corinthians 11 where Jesus breaks the bread and passes the cup if from when Jesus instituted the Lords Suppper (Last Supper) on a THURSDAY night **NOT SUNDAY** (passover Thursday) before his crucifiction. I'm not arguing that either of these practices we have is wrong, just the opposite. But tell me, is Sunday night bible study "authorized"? Or did someone decide that once per week was not enough. Let me say that I have grown up in the Church of Christ, and been a member since my baptism at 12 years of age, and I frankly am not ready for them to roll in a piano or organ or guitar in for the Sunday worship, but all we've really got to go on is "sing and make melody in your heart to God". And you and I might not be able to do that with a piano "distracting you", but can you look at your buddy George who sings with the accompanyment of a piano and tell if he's "glorifying GOd in his heart" or not? What about your contemporary Christian musicians? Are they doing Satan's work by getting the message out there in verse with (for heavens sake) instruments in the background? But I read the NIV, which is apparently authored by Satan according to some of the posts on this site, so my thinking is all backwards, right. I just wish someone could answer all my points. Where in this chat room is the love that Christ talks about in His teaching?
One needs to consider the entire text of the Bible in order to answer this question fully. All I want you to look at is this: God, throughout scripture is consistant in all He does. From the beginning to the return of Christ, God has things placed in a specific order. If God has laid out all of these things in a specific order, why would our worship to Him be any different. God is specific about His order for our worship to Him that He doesn't need but undoubtly deserves. Therefore, if He wanted instrumental music engaged into the public worship, He would have specified. As far as contemporary christian music, we are not in a place of public worship assembled with other believers when listening to this. Remember Christ said to the disciples about those casting out demons and performing miracles in His name, "those who are for us are not against us", anyone that uses different means to spread the Gospel outside of the public worship are for the kindgoms expansion, not against it.

Jason
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John Rebman
John Rebman

March 3rd, 2005, 12:33 pm #6

I thought I would throw this out to you gentleman. I was confronted with this question. Do we in the churches of Christ believe that to substitute a word, that changes the meaning of the text is a sin? I said to my inquirer: "Why yes."

He asked, "does the New Testament says that man is saved by faith?" quoting Romans 5:1 and Galatians 5:6?
He goes on to say, you believe Denominationalists ADD the word ONLY, formulating the doctrine of faith only" (Revelation 22:18; 11 John:9).

"When God said sing, and men ADD the word ONLY, formulating the doctrine of SING ONLY what is the actual difference?"

He quoted Acts 16:15: "Paul, Silas and Luke baptized Lydia and her HOUSEHOLD. ADD the word infants, assuming that all households have infants, and you have the apostles practcing infant baptism."

He asked, "Does a false premise produce a false conclusion?"
"You believe God commands an alien sinner to believe, repent, confess faith in Christ, be immersed in water for the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit."

He asked, "would this individual be considered a believer, a term which includes each act of faith required to make him a Christian?" I agreed.

He then quoted 1 Peter 3:21: "baptism does also now save us."
Asking, if I "thought this part (baptism)stood for the whole, the other acts of faith not being SPECIFIED but included?" My answer: "yes."

He reminded me that "the Jerusalem church, praised God, which included any and all acceptable acts of praise since no certain one was specified."

His question: "Do you believe psallo means the heart strings are plucked, twitched, twanged?"
"If so, would you show me the verse in the New Testament where the heart is a musical instrument?"
I replied: authentic evidence is unavailable to prove that the heart is a "musical instrument."
He quoted Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, and despertely wicked: who can know it?"


He then asked, "Could a false premise produce a false conclusion?"
JR
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

March 3rd, 2005, 9:12 pm #7

To connect MUSIC as WORSHIP has the same ORIGIN as to connect SEXUALITY to WORSHIP. It is ANTI-Biblical and ANTI-Christian and universally perverted and perverting. That means that even Plato warned that it is CATCHING.

Worship means to GIVE HEED to God in Christ by giving attendance to the public reading of that word. The PLACE is called a synagogue or school of the Bible and NOT a pagan worship center where "worship" ot THRESKIA always meant wine, women and song and more!
  • <font color=red>He reminded me that "the Jerusalem church, praised God, which included any and all acceptable acts of praise since no certain one was specified."</font>
In the Old Testament you can PRAISE (make self vile) your God or gods WHILE USING a harp. However, PRAISE is something you SPEAK. You cannot wail like lost banshees and clamor PRAISE GOD, PRAISE GOD --repeat 21 times and do ANYTHING but praise self and make a fool of yourself before God and most people.
  • <font color=blue>And the shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all the things that they had HEARD and SEEN, as it was TOLD unto them. Lu.2:20

    Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. Ac.2:47 </font>
The word praise is from:
  • <font color=blue>Ainos (g136) ah'ee-nos; appar. a prim. word; prop. a story, but used in the sense of 1868; praise (of God): - praise.

    And we have sent with him the brother, whose praise is IN THE GOSPEL throughout all the churches; 2Co.8:18

    Aineô (cf. ainêmi, ainizomai), impf.
    b. esp. in religious sense, glorify God,

    Epaineô being used instead:--properly, TELL, SPEAK

    And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and SAYING, Lu.2:13

    For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our LEARNING, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope. Rom 15:4

    That ye may with one mind and one mouth GLORIFY [praise] God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Rom 15:6 </font>
Isaiah defined keeping FALSE SABBATHS in Amos. This included God condemning MUSICAL performance RATHER THAN speaking God's Words and practicing tmen:
  • <font color=blue>Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols. Am.5:23

    BUT let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream. Amos 5:24

    IF thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy PLEASURE on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor SPEAKING THINE OWN WORDS Is.58:13 </font>
It is utterly IMPOSSIBLE to glorify God unless you 'teach that which has been taught.' SINGING is NOT: Paul said SPEAK the inspired Biblical text

Except as included with ballet and gymnastics for the warriors to give them MELODY or HARMONY in their battle attack, no one attributes to music anything other than having PLEASURE. Psalm 41 prophesied that Judas would not TRIUMPH OVER Jesus where TRIUMPH or ALARM means to play instruments and "make a joyful noise before the Lord." I have told you what the preacher will not: this was NOT musical worship but MUSIC always means to create a sense of PANIC which the traffickers peddle as SPIRITUAL:
  • DSS: <font color=purple>They have overtaken me in a narrow pass (gap) without escape
    And there is no rest for me in my trial.
    They sound my censure upon a harpand their murmuring and storming upon a zither." Ps.41:11

    However, Jesus would WIN over the musical WARRIOR LEVITES:

    I will groan with the zither of lamentation
    in all grief-stricken mourning and bitter complaint
    until iniquity and wickedness are consumed
    and the disease-bringing scourge is no more.

    Then will I play on the zither of deliverance
    and harp of joy,
    on the tabors of prayer and the pipe of praise
    without end.

    I will sing with knowledge and all my music
    shall be for the glory of God.
    (My) lyre (and) my harp shall sound
    for His holy order
    and I will tune the pipe of my lips
    to His right measure. </font>
Paul in Romans 15 OUTLAWED that. Jesus agreed with Isaiah 58 which OUTLAWS speaking your own words when the HOLY CONVOCATION meant to READ or REHEARS the Words of God. If you sing Twila Paris or Keith then you are WORSHIPING them and you cannot deny that it is to KEITH and TWILA that you are GIVING HEED TO and it is impossible to otherwise.
  • <font color=red>His question: "Do you believe psallo means the heart strings are plucked, twitched, twanged?"

    "If so, would you show me the verse in the New Testament where the heart is a musical instrument?"

    I replied: authentic evidence is unavailable to prove that the heart is a "musical instrument."

    He quoted Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, and despertely wicked: who can know it?" </font>

    <font color=blue>Jer 17:10 I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

    Plautus, Curculio CAPPADOX My spleen is killing me, my reins are in torment, my lungs are being torn asunder, my liver is being tortured, my heart-strings are giving way, all my intestines are in pain.

    Hecuba Alas! a dreadful trial is near, it seems, [230] full of mourning, rich in tears. Yes, I too escaped death where death had been my due, and Zeus did not destroy me but is still preserving my life, that I may witness in my misery fresh sorrows surpassing all before. But if the bond may ask the free of things that do not GRIEVE them or WRENCH their heart-strings, you ought to speak in answer to my questions and I ought to hear what you have to say.</font>
Whatever PSALLO means. Paul insisted that it be DONE IN THE HEART. By using the PARALLEL word GRACE he meant a QUALITY OF THE MIND OR HEART and not a HARP.

You might have defined a PSALM which is a GREEK word:
  • <font color=blue>Psal-mos'; from 5567; a set piece of music, i.e. a sacred ode
    accompanied
    with the VOICE,
    harp
    or OTHER instrument; a "psalm");
    collect. the book of the Psalms: - psalm. Comp. 5603. </font>
You might have quoted Ephesians 5:19! The word PSALLO simply means that you TOUCH something. The word TOUCH absolutely restricts psallo to how it is defined and how it is ALWAYS used. A similar base word is used by EVE who grasped that she was not being asked to EAT an APPLE but engage in sexual intercourse and Paul told us that she was WHOLLY SEDUCED John told us that Cain was OF that wicked one.
  • <font color=blue> Naga (g5060) naw-gah'; a prim. root; prop. to touch, i. e. lay the hand upon (for any purpose; euphem., to lie with a woman); by impl. to reach (fig. to arrive, acquire); violently, to strike (punish, defeat, destroy, etc.): - beat, (* be able to) bring (down), cast, come (nigh), draw near (nigh), get up, happen, join, near, plague, reach (up), smite, strike, touch.

    Nega (h5061) neh'-gah; from 5060; a blow (fig. infliction); also (by impl.) a spot (concr. a leprous person or dress): - plague, sore, stricken, stripe, stroke, wound.

    Nagan (h5059) naw-gan'; a prim. root; prop. to thrum, i. e. beat a tune with the fingers; espec. to play on a stringed instrument; hence (gen.) to make music: - player on instruments, sing to the stringed instruments, melody, ministrel, play (-er, -ing.. </font>
Remember that our HEART is our mind which controls the brain: the brain is made up of stuff which is more like HEART STRINGS than BOW STRINGS. Everything we feel is in the brain. Why not toss out the children playing games and give it a workout.

Why aren't you ANGRY with yourself for being EXTORTED out of that money to PAY hirelings who have been BLINDED by God for minimizing His Gord? Rather than getting stroked by the Madness Minister look what you could SEE if you loved the Lord and PRAISED Him by repeating HIS songs and sermons? More later.

Ken
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C King
C King

September 19th, 2006, 1:58 am #8

Many years ago while teaching a co-worker the Gospel of Christ, I was asked
by his mother why we did not use instruments of music in the worship and I
responded that there was no authority in the New Testament. She then asked me to find out when it came into the worship.
I looked for three days as time permitted to find the answer, it seemed to alude me at every turn. Finally I found it under music history.
What I found was that in AD 666 the Emporer Constans II made a present of some pagan artifacts taken from temples to pope Vitalian. Included in this was a primative organ, which he liked and decided that it would be a good aid to the worship, thus the Mark was given and by AD 670 it had to be removed due the resistance of the turmull it generated. (this is the 1260 days of
prophecy.
It was reintroduced in AD 757 When one was given to Pepin, King of the Franks.
After this it was gradually impliminted in all man's churches.


MAN WAS FIRST MARKED 1340 YEARS AGO

REFERENCES:
THE NEW INTERNATIONAL BIBLE ENCYCLOPEDIA VOLUME 13, PAGE 446
CHAMBERS BIBLE ENCYCLOPEDIA VOLUME 7 PAGE 112
AMERICAN ENCYCLOPEDIA VOLUME 12 PAGE 688
ENCYCLOPEDIA OF RELIGION AND ETHICS, JAMES HASTINGS
HISTORY OF WESTERN MUSIC, DONALD J. GROUT PAGE 63
HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH, VOLUME 4, PAGE 439

MANY MORE REFERENCES, I STUMBLED ACROSS WHILE ANSWERING A QUESTION
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

September 19th, 2006, 2:58 am #9

I will check to make sure that I have that one. I began with a small list about 25 years ago and have added other lists and lots of research on my on. As I have time I have been adding links to these quotes mostly on my home page because too many of the other links go dead and you cannot count on them.

http://www.piney.com/MuHistor.html

If anyone has others I will add them. The point is that the musical madness flies in the face that the Bible and all known repudiates them and connects music as does the Bible to telling God "we will not listen to your words." I don't see how one would even need to try to prove that because it seems self-evident.
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David L. Nicholson
David L. Nicholson

November 1st, 2006, 3:55 am #10

I was raised in the church of Christ; accepted the old time ways...preached 23 yers - masters degree - ACU - realized what many have said in these arguments. My "brethren" were ok but not actually better or more dedicated than the "denominatuional Christians."
Finally, i saw and experienced enough ... left c oh C - looked at "sporot filled churches." They are more dogmatic that c of C. Finally found Methodist Church 18 years ago Much more spiritual... Let the c of C "do its thing." If you do not like it LEAVE! I have made many mistakes in life but leaving the c of C was NOT one of them. Praise God ... "i saw the light... I saw th light...." If you feel strong on only acapello music stay in c of C; if you do not then leave and leave the c of C alone. Everyone is happy!

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