Minimal Madness from Musical Mistresses

Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

June 3rd, 2010, 7:31 pm #1

According to Wikipedia on the Restoration movement

75% of the congregations and 87% of the membership are mainline
25% others
None Institutional 2,500
No Separate Bible Class 1,100
One Cup 550
Mutual Edification 130

So, if you do them math (Donnie) you can calculate the total number of congregations any of which I could attend and be accepted if I did not try to upset their views.

Out of that number the ones who have been diverted to instruments as a separate (divided) assembly has been very tiny. Give three cheers for the preachers, elders, purple haired ladies, CM and piney.com.

I have been working with another large group which refused to go instrumental but compromised with singing groups. Members will be fighting even this bowing to Baal and allowing the hypocritic arts and artists to hog the place of Jesus Christ and His Word.
Quote
Share

Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

June 3rd, 2010, 9:56 pm #2

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]A really interesting report/observation by Wikipedia!!!

Despite the very minor differences in those "congregational" issues, churches of Christ worldwide are still united. An extremist congregation might call itself "One-Cup Church of Christ" -- but I know of no one by that church name. Another extremist might call itself "No-Separate-Bible-Class Church of Christ" -- but I know of no one by that church name.

The 18,000+/- congregations worldwide are simply "churches of Christ." Now, we cannot argue the fact that there have been attempts by instrumental music enthusiasts to subvert the church with their acquired view of being just like "the other nations." Yes, in the process, a few congregations [very minimal in number] have been diverted. About 20 of them?

Yes, I've done the math -- some 99.88888% has refused to go along with the piano flow. Thanks to the elders and leaders who are firm and supportive of the truth, who are loyal to Christ and His church, who do not easily succumb to cultural and social influences and "peer" pressures. Some of the congregations [with weak leaders] that have drifted [at no fault of the members] have affiliated with either the Christian Church or the Community Church. Just check out the Willow Creek Association to see which congregations have affiliated with that group. So, overall, churches of Christ are virtually non-instrumental.

Regardless of what they do at the annual Tulsa Musical Workshop. And regardless of what and how Max Lucado and Rick Atchley, et al, teach and say and do.[/color]
Quote
Share

Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

June 8th, 2010, 9:37 pm #3

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Revised stats:

Most members of the church of Christ live outside the United States. Surprised? There are more members of the church in Africa and India alone than in the United States, in approximately 16,000 congregations.

There are more than 100 congregations in the Philippines. Church growth and influences are quite strong in Central and South America.

Restoration Movement groups from Great Britain, historically, were more influential than those from the United States in the early development of the movement in Australia and New Zealand.

There are approximately 40,000 congregations worldwide, with most of the churches of Christ outside the United States. There is no known congregation of the church of Christ outside the U.S. that uses musical devices in the assembly. As mentioned earlier, some 20 congregations in the U.S. partially or wholly use musical instrumental objects in their assemblies -- some have affiliated with the Christian Church [instrumental music, anyway]; some have associated themselves with the Community Church; while others stubbornly remain in the fellowship.

So, with 20 of the 40,000 churches of Christ worldwide into implementing "mechanical music" devices in their "spiritual worship," the percentage of congregations shying away from mechanical worship is even greater.

It is 99.95% -- but it is virtually 100% when the tiny group of instrumentalist congregations are "at home" with the Christian Church or associating themselves with "the other nations." It is a shame that the decision of weak and succumbing leaders of a congregation would prevail even when members object.[/color]
Quote
Like
Share

Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

June 8th, 2010, 11:10 pm #4

Donnie, I have added your stats to my quick "requested" review of the A&M Church of Christ.

http://www.piney.com/A.and.M.Church.Of. ... ml#Revised

Good numbers. Some very Bible-literate people have decided to stand in the gap and fight. Already, the "leaders" are pointing to anyone who objects as unloving a divisive.
Quote
Share

Guy
Guy

August 30th, 2011, 7:13 pm #5

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]A really interesting report/observation by Wikipedia!!!

Despite the very minor differences in those "congregational" issues, churches of Christ worldwide are still united. An extremist congregation might call itself "One-Cup Church of Christ" -- but I know of no one by that church name. Another extremist might call itself "No-Separate-Bible-Class Church of Christ" -- but I know of no one by that church name.

The 18,000+/- congregations worldwide are simply "churches of Christ." Now, we cannot argue the fact that there have been attempts by instrumental music enthusiasts to subvert the church with their acquired view of being just like "the other nations." Yes, in the process, a few congregations [very minimal in number] have been diverted. About 20 of them?

Yes, I've done the math -- some 99.88888% has refused to go along with the piano flow. Thanks to the elders and leaders who are firm and supportive of the truth, who are loyal to Christ and His church, who do not easily succumb to cultural and social influences and "peer" pressures. Some of the congregations [with weak leaders] that have drifted [at no fault of the members] have affiliated with either the Christian Church or the Community Church. Just check out the Willow Creek Association to see which congregations have affiliated with that group. So, overall, churches of Christ are virtually non-instrumental.

Regardless of what they do at the annual Tulsa Musical Workshop. And regardless of what and how Max Lucado and Rick Atchley, et al, teach and say and do.[/color]
We use only one cup and one loaf in our communion service every Lords Day and also have no bible classes, we do not use instrumental music during worship service. There are congregations all over the US and abroad that worship this way, according the pattern set before us in the scriptures. If you would like to learn more about why we worship this way, please contact mcalisterfam@att.net
Quote
Share

Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

August 30th, 2011, 8:03 pm #6

We use only one cup and one loaf in our communion service every Lords Day and also have no bible classes, we do not use instrumental music during worship service. There are congregations all over the US and abroad that worship this way, according the pattern set before us in the scriptures. If you would like to learn more about why we worship this way, please contact mcalisterfam@att.net

I grew up in a two-glass congregation. I believe G.C. Brewer takes credit for finding a market for the individual cups. People love to slander one cuppers but I have to remind them that using individual cups is what divided churches: many "high" church groups still use one cup.

People have to be reminded that the Sunday School Movement began as a way to take the education away from the elders. Standard Publishing still wants your church so they can sell song books and ss literature. As it turned out the women took the elder's role away from them: Isaiah 3 warned about that.

While individual classes sounds wise, the result has been a female-dominated group from the cradle to "college class." "Institutions" again sound so wise but if you build one Satan will take it away from you.

I believe that you can make the case that Jesus had the disciples "portion" out the juice before they actually drank. But, again, when they love to speak of division in the non-instrumental church of christ, they miss the point that I could probably be accepted by any of them: I would not be so presumptuous as to try to force a change and everyone would be happy. The instrumental groups assuredly EXCLUDE most of the Church of Christ.

In a blog, a preacher was in great distress when his 2 year old asked him how far away the moon was. He thought of all of the laws of gravitey and decided not to tell the kid. I told him to be as smart as the kid and tell him it was about 236,000 miles or so. That's what the kid asked and now he knows more than the preacher did before. That is where the classes have insulted their kids and their charge from God. I believe that if you read a whole thought pattern from the Bible they will understand "what it says." In time, the whole meaning will develop. On the other hand, kids can go away from college and think that Moses saved the people from the flood in the Ark of the Covenant.

Quote
Like
Share

Sonny
Sonny

August 31st, 2011, 2:03 am #7

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Revised stats:

Most members of the church of Christ live outside the United States. Surprised? There are more members of the church in Africa and India alone than in the United States, in approximately 16,000 congregations.

There are more than 100 congregations in the Philippines. Church growth and influences are quite strong in Central and South America.

Restoration Movement groups from Great Britain, historically, were more influential than those from the United States in the early development of the movement in Australia and New Zealand.

There are approximately 40,000 congregations worldwide, with most of the churches of Christ outside the United States. There is no known congregation of the church of Christ outside the U.S. that uses musical devices in the assembly. As mentioned earlier, some 20 congregations in the U.S. partially or wholly use musical instrumental objects in their assemblies -- some have affiliated with the Christian Church [instrumental music, anyway]; some have associated themselves with the Community Church; while others stubbornly remain in the fellowship.

So, with 20 of the 40,000 churches of Christ worldwide into implementing "mechanical music" devices in their "spiritual worship," the percentage of congregations shying away from mechanical worship is even greater.

It is 99.95% -- but it is virtually 100% when the tiny group of instrumentalist congregations are "at home" with the Christian Church or associating themselves with "the other nations." It is a shame that the decision of weak and succumbing leaders of a congregation would prevail even when members object.[/color]
Brother Cruz,

Most every C of C in Australia IS instrumental.

-Sonny
Quote
Share

Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

September 4th, 2011, 5:54 am #8

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Sonny,

There are still congregations within the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ religious group that have retained the name "Church of Christ" but are not affiliated with the churches of Christ.[/color]
Quote
Like
Share

Joe Spivy
Joe Spivy

September 6th, 2011, 1:12 am #9

We use only one cup and one loaf in our communion service every Lords Day and also have no bible classes, we do not use instrumental music during worship service. There are congregations all over the US and abroad that worship this way, according the pattern set before us in the scriptures. If you would like to learn more about why we worship this way, please contact mcalisterfam@att.net

I grew up in a two-glass congregation. I believe G.C. Brewer takes credit for finding a market for the individual cups. People love to slander one cuppers but I have to remind them that using individual cups is what divided churches: many "high" church groups still use one cup.

People have to be reminded that the Sunday School Movement began as a way to take the education away from the elders. Standard Publishing still wants your church so they can sell song books and ss literature. As it turned out the women took the elder's role away from them: Isaiah 3 warned about that.

While individual classes sounds wise, the result has been a female-dominated group from the cradle to "college class." "Institutions" again sound so wise but if you build one Satan will take it away from you.

I believe that you can make the case that Jesus had the disciples "portion" out the juice before they actually drank. But, again, when they love to speak of division in the non-instrumental church of christ, they miss the point that I could probably be accepted by any of them: I would not be so presumptuous as to try to force a change and everyone would be happy. The instrumental groups assuredly EXCLUDE most of the Church of Christ.

In a blog, a preacher was in great distress when his 2 year old asked him how far away the moon was. He thought of all of the laws of gravitey and decided not to tell the kid. I told him to be as smart as the kid and tell him it was about 236,000 miles or so. That's what the kid asked and now he knows more than the preacher did before. That is where the classes have insulted their kids and their charge from God. I believe that if you read a whole thought pattern from the Bible they will understand "what it says." In time, the whole meaning will develop. On the other hand, kids can go away from college and think that Moses saved the people from the flood in the Ark of the Covenant.
In the last post this statement was made: "I have to remind them that using individual cups is what divided churches: many 'high' church groups still use one cup." I'm not really interested in one vs. multiple cups (though some may be and I'd be willing to read what they had to say) - I've been in assemblies where both of these practices were observed.

I doubt those who post here normally appeal to the practice of 'high church groups' for guidance in practice and doctrine. Of course, anyone's practice or doctrine should rest on what is revealed in the Word. One difficulty is one man's 'approved example' is another man's 'incidental.'

Are we comfortable with taking the position that whatever was practiced before (in our experience or historical stream) is what is right or best? Is it 'changing' a practice that divides or is it an insistence that 'what is old is better' that divides?

Brother Sublett, could you provide some historical documentation for the statement, "People have to be reminded that the Sunday School Movement began as a way to take the education away from the elders"? Could you also elaborate on the role taken over by women in churches? In what sense have you seen churches where it could be said "women rule over them" (Isaiah 3:12)?

In what sense do the "instrumental groups assuredly EXCLUDE most of the Church of Christ"? This is not a statement that I am unable to see a difference or that I agree with instrumental music, but rather a question about your observation or experience of their exclusionary practices concerning members of the churches of Christ?
Quote
Share

Sonny
Sonny

September 6th, 2011, 4:18 am #10

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Sonny,

There are still congregations within the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ religious group that have retained the name "Church of Christ" but are not affiliated with the churches of Christ.[/color]
Brother, they still call themselves a Church of Christ. You stated that only a few Churches of Christ use instruments and practically none overseas. This is incorrect data. The majority of "Churches of Christ" in Australia DO use instruments. Only you are not including them. They do not call themselves Christian Church or Disciples of Christ. They call themselves Church of Christ. (Yes, I am familiar with the history of the 3 groups.)

I believe you want to skew the data to fit your agenda. It does not matter because they are Christians in the Lord's eyes and one day soon this will all become clear and many of our brethren (undoubtedly with pure motives, such as yourself) will realize how much time you wasted on Christians who use instruments when you could have been reaching "the lost."

Yesterday I had a Bible study with an adult man on his porch who has a very rough and irreligious background. We are studying every other Sunday afternoon. I taught him the Great Commission among other verses yesterday, and we finished with prayer. In two weeks we will study again, and I hope he is becoming a follower of Jesus, and to soon baptize him into Christ for the remission of his sins.

God has no problem with respectfully and lovingly challenging false teachers. The problem is that you are wrongfully identifying people as such (based on instruments). Furthermore, this method of utilizing your website for such purposes is not only failing to reaching the lost, but is likely turning them away as they are not mature enough to understand the arguments. Plus, this site is being divisive to the brotherhood because you are not going to people directly first, followed by going to the elders/congregation where they teach and preach (per Matthew 18).

I believe in the grace of God, and pray for your conscience and soul. I believe your motives are pure. I believe your decisions and actions pertaining to this site are sinful. I pray to one day come to this site and for it to be no more, or to have a letter of apology and repentance.

-Sonny
Quote
Share