Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

September 6th, 2011, 7:45 pm #21

So it would appear that those so-called "churches of Christ" in Australia and New Zealand that have instrumental music are nothing more than bastardized congregations that have polluted themselves with the IM-toting Christian Churches/Disciples of Christ.

Regardless of whatever other names a congregation may call itself, a TRUE church of Christ congregation anywhere in the world does NOT have instrumental music.

***********************************************

Dr. Crump, those are strong words from a mere man. You are speaking for God where God has not spoken. For your own good you may want to qualify your statement with "in my opinion". JMHO

That I am a mere man is true. That the TRUE Church of Christ does not have IM is a true statement; it is not an "opinion." The TRUE Church of Christ does not observe what Christ never authorized in the New Testament, as far as doctrinal issues are concerned. For example, music IS a doctrinal issue, because Christ addressed it. Christ through Paul authorized singing (vocal music); He did not authorize any other forms of music. Likewise, the Lord's Supper IS a doctrinal issue, because Christ addressed it. Christ authorized bread and fruit of the vine; He did not authorize pizza and soft drinks. Baptism for salvation and remission of sins IS a doctrinal issue, because Christ addressed it. Christ said that those who believe AND are baptized shall be saved. He also commanded through Peter that we repent AND be baptized FOR remission of sins; He gave us no option about baptism. Yet many folks wrongly believe they are "saved by faith alone" and regard baptism as entirely optional. On the other hand, PA systems and other non-essentials are NOT doctrinal issues, because Christ never addressed them. Yet many people insist on mixing, comparing, and confusing doctrinal issues (those that Christ addressed) with non-essential issues (those that Christ never addressed).

Therefore, as far as music is concerned, those congregations that embrace IM yet insist on calling themselves "churches of Christ" are FALSE and deceive the public. Those churches can whitewash and perfume themselves with whatever name appeals to the gullible public, but they will NEVER be TRUE churches of Christ until they ditch the instruments and embrace the doctrinal issues that Christ authorized in the New Testament. Now, those ARE strong words, because the TRUTH is STRONG.
Quote
Share

Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

September 6th, 2011, 9:31 pm #22

The statement that I gave is factual per God's truth. You will NEVER find documented the mention of musical machines in the assembly of saints every being condemned anywhere during the apostolic era and among Christians in the early centuries. Also you will NEVER find a PA system ever mentioned in existence anywhere during the apostolic era and among Christians in the early centuries. Many such items that we employ today to worship God were not used during the first century worship of God. Does that mean that a PA system is wrong? Certainly not.

My entire second paragraph, my own declaration of the Truth of God's Word, is just that....what God wants instead of what men, like you, want.

My advice to you, Donnie, is like what Sonny gave to you the other day. Give up living for satan and repent. Give this site to God and you and this site will flourish. As of now, you are in danger of hell fire. Notice where I said that you are in danger....not lost....as of yet. While your heart still beats, you have time to do what is right.
What you want is not of importance Donnie.....what God wishes is everything!
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave,

The modern PA system did not exist in the New Testament era. Even if there were other forms of PA systems.

On the other hand, musical instruments have been in existence ever since man, including David the skilled musician, invented them.

Know what? While they were IN EXISTENCE in the New Testament era, there is NO RECORD in the apostolic writings and from those of the "early church fathers" of their being played in the assembly.

I don't need your condemnation of hellfire as my destination. That can never play a role in presenting a valid argument from your distorted mind. (You've been warned of that before as that is a malicious statement emanating from someone with very weak arguments and nothing else worthwhile to present.)

I know when the truth speaks for itself. You and I are both obligated to know and speak the truth. That's what God wishes from all of us. [/color]
Quote
Like
Share

R*
R*

September 6th, 2011, 10:04 pm #23

That I am a mere man is true. That the TRUE Church of Christ does not have IM is a true statement; it is not an "opinion." The TRUE Church of Christ does not observe what Christ never authorized in the New Testament, as far as doctrinal issues are concerned. For example, music IS a doctrinal issue, because Christ addressed it. Christ through Paul authorized singing (vocal music); He did not authorize any other forms of music. Likewise, the Lord's Supper IS a doctrinal issue, because Christ addressed it. Christ authorized bread and fruit of the vine; He did not authorize pizza and soft drinks. Baptism for salvation and remission of sins IS a doctrinal issue, because Christ addressed it. Christ said that those who believe AND are baptized shall be saved. He also commanded through Peter that we repent AND be baptized FOR remission of sins; He gave us no option about baptism. Yet many folks wrongly believe they are "saved by faith alone" and regard baptism as entirely optional. On the other hand, PA systems and other non-essentials are NOT doctrinal issues, because Christ never addressed them. Yet many people insist on mixing, comparing, and confusing doctrinal issues (those that Christ addressed) with non-essential issues (those that Christ never addressed).

Therefore, as far as music is concerned, those congregations that embrace IM yet insist on calling themselves "churches of Christ" are FALSE and deceive the public. Those churches can whitewash and perfume themselves with whatever name appeals to the gullible public, but they will NEVER be TRUE churches of Christ until they ditch the instruments and embrace the doctrinal issues that Christ authorized in the New Testament. Now, those ARE strong words, because the TRUTH is STRONG.
Dr. Crump, if you elect to condemn Churches of Christ for using IM and go as far to call them bastardized congregations that are false, I can't help you. It's between you and the Lord. In my opinion that is something to think about.
Quote
Share

Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

September 7th, 2011, 1:41 am #24

Since "to bastardize" something is to debase or corrupt it (see dictionary.com), a "bastardized congregation" is one that is debased and corrupt--one that does not following the doctrinal teachings of Christ in the New Testament. It is also a congregation that holds as doctrines the teachings of men. Therefore, any church of Christ congregation that espouses IM when it is not authorized in the New Testament is, by hard definition, a "bastardized congregation." Perhaps "debased and corrupt" sounds better on the ears, but the meaning remains the SAME, nonetheless. Sometimes, the truth is VERY hard for change agents to swallow.
Quote
Share

Dave
Dave

September 7th, 2011, 2:07 pm #25

According to Wikipedia on the Restoration movement

75% of the congregations and 87% of the membership are mainline
25% others
None Institutional 2,500
No Separate Bible Class 1,100
One Cup 550
Mutual Edification 130

So, if you do them math (Donnie) you can calculate the total number of congregations any of which I could attend and be accepted if I did not try to upset their views.

Out of that number the ones who have been diverted to instruments as a separate (divided) assembly has been very tiny. Give three cheers for the preachers, elders, purple haired ladies, CM and piney.com.

I have been working with another large group which refused to go instrumental but compromised with singing groups. Members will be fighting even this bowing to Baal and allowing the hypocritic arts and artists to hog the place of Jesus Christ and His Word.
Donnie, your claim that my arguments are weak...is false. I have backed everything that I have spoke of from the Word of God. You are in danger of living the rest of your life in hell because you do exactly what you claim others do...you judge wrongly. You don't PREFER instrumental music, although you can't prove, by the Scriptures that it is sinful. You don't PREFER praise teams, clapping, the lifting of holy hands, etc., so you judge wrongly that their worship is holy entertainment.
The main problem is this, and will continue to be this....those who want to worship God differently (more spirited and lively) do not have a problem with yours and others traditions. YOU....are the one who has a problem with someone worshiping God differently (not sinful or against Scriptures). You have judged wrongly and you ARE in danger of hell fire. THIS....is what this site is all about....EVIL condemnation of others who prefer to worship (within the bounds of the Scriptures) differently.
Quote
Share

Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

September 8th, 2011, 1:27 am #26

Dave's title of "It IS What It IS" sounds a bit like Bill Clinton's waffling to the grand jury when he said, "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is."
Quote
Share

Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

September 8th, 2011, 2:42 am #27

Donnie, your claim that my arguments are weak...is false. I have backed everything that I have spoke of from the Word of God. You are in danger of living the rest of your life in hell because you do exactly what you claim others do...you judge wrongly. You don't PREFER instrumental music, although you can't prove, by the Scriptures that it is sinful. You don't PREFER praise teams, clapping, the lifting of holy hands, etc., so you judge wrongly that their worship is holy entertainment.
The main problem is this, and will continue to be this....those who want to worship God differently (more spirited and lively) do not have a problem with yours and others traditions. YOU....are the one who has a problem with someone worshiping God differently (not sinful or against Scriptures). You have judged wrongly and you ARE in danger of hell fire. THIS....is what this site is all about....EVIL condemnation of others who prefer to worship (within the bounds of the Scriptures) differently.
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave,

1. You have backed up everything you've spoken with your own logic and philosophy. There is no directive from God to use musical objects and devices in the assembly of saints. There is also no directive from God to burn incense during the assembly of saints. To MECHANICAL MUSIC LOVERS like you and your supporters, based on YOUR logic, neither instruments nor sweet incense should affect singing. Correct, Dave? There is still singing, right, Dave? Now, tell me again, from your own logic, that you are now prepared to practice burning incense unto the Lord as you've always been prepared to blow the trumpet unto the Lord? (NOTE: There are numerous activities that YOU [Dave] can perform in the assembly without affecting singing, meaning that singing still goes on. Why don't you practice them to enhance your "worship"?)

2. Clapping [programmed, rhythmic JOY]; lifting "holy" hands [holy or unholy--what is that; men or women--or both]; praise teams or choirs -- SAVE them for later.

3. Oh, "someone worshiping God differently"? Dave, would you be interested in becoming a member of a Charismatic or Pentecostal group that believes differently from the church of Christ you claim to be a member of. The first group operates all sorts of musical devices. Perhaps, excessively, but that shouldn't matter to you, Dave -- the drums, accordion, trumpet, guitar, piano, etc. The more, the better. And speaking of "PREFERENCES" [you use this expression in your logic very frequently], the instrumental worship is one of yours, undoubtedly. Go for it, by all means. You do not have to remain in the church where you are miserable, i.e., without instrumental music.[/color]
Quote
Like
Share

Dave
Dave

September 8th, 2011, 6:50 am #28

According to Wikipedia on the Restoration movement

75% of the congregations and 87% of the membership are mainline
25% others
None Institutional 2,500
No Separate Bible Class 1,100
One Cup 550
Mutual Edification 130

So, if you do them math (Donnie) you can calculate the total number of congregations any of which I could attend and be accepted if I did not try to upset their views.

Out of that number the ones who have been diverted to instruments as a separate (divided) assembly has been very tiny. Give three cheers for the preachers, elders, purple haired ladies, CM and piney.com.

I have been working with another large group which refused to go instrumental but compromised with singing groups. Members will be fighting even this bowing to Baal and allowing the hypocritic arts and artists to hog the place of Jesus Christ and His Word.
Donnie, when you talk about blowing a trumpet and burning incense, which no one has mentioned and which is isn't an issue here, we again see that you are into winning an argument and not into gaining the Truth. When you call me a mechanical music lover and I have never ever espoused such.....you are also into lying. I love a capella (which I have always stated), but will not condemn those who choose to use instruments of music.

This isn't a debate Donnie. It is LIFE!!!

The one comment by you, Donnie, was just out and out ridiculous (they pile up after a while).
You commented about me not having to remain in the church where I am miserable.
YOU, of all people, would say that about anyone else....YOU, who continually, day in and day out, slam Madison, the bride of Christ, because YOU didn't get your way with your traditions.
Donnie, YOU need to just take your ball and go home and play by yourself.
Quote
Share

Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

September 10th, 2011, 7:33 pm #29

Dave,

<ol>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]I talk about: [a] "blowing the trumpet unto the Lord" and "burning incense unto the Lord" to prove that your logic is fallacious and is not Scripture-supported.[/color]
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Both are activities or mechanical operations: [a] by blowing and by burning.[/color]
    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Both require objects: [a] the trumpet and the incense.[/color]
    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Both have man's intentions: [a] to aid or enhance "worship" and as odor of sweet smell odor unto the Lord.[/color]
    </li>
  • B[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]oth have man-ordained attribution: [a] "musical worship" service and sacrificial offering.[/color]

    </li>
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]You'd rather that I use the piano or organ instead of the trumpet as a musical device example. But you must realize that the trumpet is a musical instrument. Therefore, blowing the trumpet unto the Lord is as much an issue as playing the piano unto the Lord during the assembly. Get used to the idea that "blowing the trumpet unto the Lord" in the assembly [the Charismatic groups use it a lot] as an instrumental music issue.

I'm using: [a] blowing the trumpet and burning incense as a parallel illustration that neither one was ever a practice among New Testament Christians or in the church of the first century.

The inconsistency is in your position and logic that you have the affinity for the first type of service (instrumental music), but reject the second type of sacrifice (burning incense).

There goes your failing fallacious argument involving PREFERENCES (your own favorite form of argument).[/color]

</li>
[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]You are miserable in the church you claim to be a member of--the church that does NOT indulge in "instrumental music worship"--because you do not get your way with the papal-originated tradition. Teaching and admonishing one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs is an APOSTOLIC TRADITION (scripture-based). On the other hand, the man-invented "mechanical music service" is a PAPAL-ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH, PROTESTANT-PROPAGATED tradition (pagan-based).

Leave the Madison congregation out of this IM debate unless it is converted into this RCC-originated IM worship. The church of Christ worldwide is the body of Christ, also His bride. Madison is only a part of that body.

Dave, I didn't intend to upset you with substituting the trumpet for the piano or guitar. It's only to make you see that the trumpet is a musical instrument or device--lifeless and inanimate until you operate it mechanically.[/color]</li>[/list]
Quote
Like
Share

Dave
Dave

September 12th, 2011, 4:18 am #30

According to Wikipedia on the Restoration movement

75% of the congregations and 87% of the membership are mainline
25% others
None Institutional 2,500
No Separate Bible Class 1,100
One Cup 550
Mutual Edification 130

So, if you do them math (Donnie) you can calculate the total number of congregations any of which I could attend and be accepted if I did not try to upset their views.

Out of that number the ones who have been diverted to instruments as a separate (divided) assembly has been very tiny. Give three cheers for the preachers, elders, purple haired ladies, CM and piney.com.

I have been working with another large group which refused to go instrumental but compromised with singing groups. Members will be fighting even this bowing to Baal and allowing the hypocritic arts and artists to hog the place of Jesus Christ and His Word.
Donnie, you have and will never upset me. Pity for you is not the same as being upset with you. You understand?
Your response covered several items, but not this one.
I said "When you call me a mechanical music lover and I have never ever espoused such.....you are also into lying."

Please respond.
Quote
Share