Minimal Madness from Musical Mistresses

Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

September 6th, 2011, 4:20 am #11

In the last post this statement was made: "I have to remind them that using individual cups is what divided churches: many 'high' church groups still use one cup." I'm not really interested in one vs. multiple cups (though some may be and I'd be willing to read what they had to say) - I've been in assemblies where both of these practices were observed.

I doubt those who post here normally appeal to the practice of 'high church groups' for guidance in practice and doctrine. Of course, anyone's practice or doctrine should rest on what is revealed in the Word. One difficulty is one man's 'approved example' is another man's 'incidental.'

Are we comfortable with taking the position that whatever was practiced before (in our experience or historical stream) is what is right or best? Is it 'changing' a practice that divides or is it an insistence that 'what is old is better' that divides?

Brother Sublett, could you provide some historical documentation for the statement, "People have to be reminded that the Sunday School Movement began as a way to take the education away from the elders"? Could you also elaborate on the role taken over by women in churches? In what sense have you seen churches where it could be said "women rule over them" (Isaiah 3:12)?

In what sense do the "instrumental groups assuredly EXCLUDE most of the Church of Christ"? This is not a statement that I am unable to see a difference or that I agree with instrumental music, but rather a question about your observation or experience of their exclusionary practices concerning members of the churches of Christ?
Brother Sublett, could you provide some historical documentation for the statement, "People have to be reminded that the Sunday School Movement began as a way to take the education away from the elders"? Could you also elaborate on the role taken over by women in churches? In what sense have you seen churches where it could be said "women rule over them" (Isaiah 3:12)?

Look up The Sunday School Movement under Google. The lust to take over churches of Christ began by agents sent out by Standard Publishing Company into Tennessee. Joining the group normally means that you will buy song books and Sunday School literature prepared by them and therefore they are in control. There was some kind of shady deal connected with their acquiring Alexander Campbell's Song books to which they added notes.

Most churches are effeminate and no ten males could be forced to get out of bed on Sundan morning and put together what we call a worship service meaning "hard bondage" with the Jews. Rhetorical styles of speaking, sissy songs and singing is effeminate: when you move, says Niceta, from speak or say to sing it is both the mark and cause of the effeminate. Early observers of the early frontier said that the worship was a conspiracy between women and disenfranchised men." Teaching is the Biblical mandate of a church with the elders in charge: children now are under the domination from cradle to the college class.

The White Paper used to "persuade" the elders at Max Lucado's church was prepared by a female. I have reviewed it. Of course, she like the men think that if you collect all of the verses with an instrument in it it is proven that God commanded instruments for the church. It is certain that none of the writers have ever gone beyond collecting verses out of a lexicon and could never have read the context. The option is that they didn't NEED to read if they could lie with enough coercive force.

In what sense do the "instrumental groups assuredly EXCLUDE most of the Church of Christ"? This is not a statement that I am unable to see a difference or that I agree with instrumental music, but rather a question about your observation or experience of their exclusionary practices concerning members of the churches of Christ?

The instrumentalists knew that they planned--with a high hand--to impose instruments into peaceable churches. They knew that they offended a bunch of people but calculated that they could make up the loss when they added instruments. No Bible-literate disciple would endure any kind of instruments when Jesus comes to be the only Teacher when the elders "teach that which has been taught."

The instrumentalists preach liberty but that only means you can attend and put something in the not-commanded collection plate. No, you cannot preach against instruments. No, you cannot teach a class.

With the modern spawn of promise keepers and the purpose driven cult they CALCULATE (re Rick Atchley) that they can loose half of the "owners" but make up the difference jiffy quick if their music turns tricks on route 666. Rick couldn't help boast about how they had inclucated the instrumental view into children trusting parents sent to "youth meetings" with the goal, he says, of "destroying this movement.'

If you toss a skunk into my house you KNOW that you are excluding me. Instrumentalists claim they can worship (whatever that be) without instruments. They know that they are exclucing half of the body by imposing instruments.

The folly of the people is that they blame those forced to leave with SOWING DISCORD. It happened to J.W.McGarvey who was not allowed to preach against the addition in his own congregation.

There is NO music in any godly worship in the entire Bible: if you cant grasp that then you do not know the meaning of ekklesia or synagogue or know the meaning of a DISCIPLE.
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

September 6th, 2011, 5:07 am #12

Brother, they still call themselves a Church of Christ. You stated that only a few Churches of Christ use instruments and practically none overseas. This is incorrect data. The majority of "Churches of Christ" in Australia DO use instruments. Only you are not including them. They do not call themselves Christian Church or Disciples of Christ. They call themselves Church of Christ. (Yes, I am familiar with the history of the 3 groups.)

I believe you want to skew the data to fit your agenda. It does not matter because they are Christians in the Lord's eyes and one day soon this will all become clear and many of our brethren (undoubtedly with pure motives, such as yourself) will realize how much time you wasted on Christians who use instruments when you could have been reaching "the lost."

Yesterday I had a Bible study with an adult man on his porch who has a very rough and irreligious background. We are studying every other Sunday afternoon. I taught him the Great Commission among other verses yesterday, and we finished with prayer. In two weeks we will study again, and I hope he is becoming a follower of Jesus, and to soon baptize him into Christ for the remission of his sins.

God has no problem with respectfully and lovingly challenging false teachers. The problem is that you are wrongfully identifying people as such (based on instruments). Furthermore, this method of utilizing your website for such purposes is not only failing to reaching the lost, but is likely turning them away as they are not mature enough to understand the arguments. Plus, this site is being divisive to the brotherhood because you are not going to people directly first, followed by going to the elders/congregation where they teach and preach (per Matthew 18).

I believe in the grace of God, and pray for your conscience and soul. I believe your motives are pure. I believe your decisions and actions pertaining to this site are sinful. I pray to one day come to this site and for it to be no more, or to have a letter of apology and repentance.

-Sonny
Many people who believe in Jesus but who have never been baptized still call themselves "Christians," when, by Christ's own requirements for salvation, they are NOT Christians.

Likewise, a congregation may call itself "church of Christ" when it is really not. In the case of so-called "churches of Christ" in Australia and New Zealand, most of them are actually affiliated and intertwined with the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ. According to Wikipedia:

"The period from 1875 through 1910 also saw debates over the use of musical instruments in worship, Christian Endeavor Societies and Sunday Schools. Ultimately, all three found general acceptance in the movement.[93]:51 Currently, the Restoration Movement is not as divided in Australia as it is in the United States.[93]:53 There have been strong ties with the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ), but many conservative ministers and congregations associate with the Independent Christian Churches/Churches of Christ instead.[93]:53 Others have sought support from non-instrumental Churches of Christ, particularly those who felt that "conference" congregations had "departed from the restoration ideal".[93]:53"

Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churches_o ... ew_Zealand

So it would appear that those so-called "churches of Christ" in Australia and New Zealand that have instrumental music are nothing more than bastardized congregations that have polluted themselves with the IM-toting Christian Churches/Disciples of Christ.

Regardless of whatever other names a congregation may call itself, a TRUE church of Christ congregation anywhere in the world does NOT have instrumental music.

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Dave
Dave

September 6th, 2011, 12:24 pm #13

According to Wikipedia on the Restoration movement

75% of the congregations and 87% of the membership are mainline
25% others
None Institutional 2,500
No Separate Bible Class 1,100
One Cup 550
Mutual Edification 130

So, if you do them math (Donnie) you can calculate the total number of congregations any of which I could attend and be accepted if I did not try to upset their views.

Out of that number the ones who have been diverted to instruments as a separate (divided) assembly has been very tiny. Give three cheers for the preachers, elders, purple haired ladies, CM and piney.com.

I have been working with another large group which refused to go instrumental but compromised with singing groups. Members will be fighting even this bowing to Baal and allowing the hypocritic arts and artists to hog the place of Jesus Christ and His Word.
Someone once said...."Regardless of whatever other names a congregation may call itself, a TRUE church of Christ congregation anywhere in the world does NOT have instrumental music."

That declaration is false, spewed forth from the mouth of a false teacher. Instrumental music is not/nor ever will be a factor, per the Word of God, in deciding whether a church is a TRUE church of Christ. This has already been proven time and time again by the Word of God.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

September 6th, 2011, 2:55 pm #14

The first statement is factual per God's truth. You will NEVER find documented the operation of musical machines in the assembly of saints in existence anywhere during the apostolic era and among Christians in the early centuries.

The entire second paragraph, your own declaration of independence from God's Word, is not the truth -- you certainly fabricated that even while there are other criteria that determine the true church of Christ Jesus.

My advice to you, Dave, is for you to join the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ religion, even though you're not likely to do so. They have everything you need, plus more. In that church you will be freer than ever to express your love for the guitar, sackbut, organ or whatever musical device you prefer.
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R*
R*

September 6th, 2011, 3:40 pm #15

According to Wikipedia on the Restoration movement

75% of the congregations and 87% of the membership are mainline
25% others
None Institutional 2,500
No Separate Bible Class 1,100
One Cup 550
Mutual Edification 130

So, if you do them math (Donnie) you can calculate the total number of congregations any of which I could attend and be accepted if I did not try to upset their views.

Out of that number the ones who have been diverted to instruments as a separate (divided) assembly has been very tiny. Give three cheers for the preachers, elders, purple haired ladies, CM and piney.com.

I have been working with another large group which refused to go instrumental but compromised with singing groups. Members will be fighting even this bowing to Baal and allowing the hypocritic arts and artists to hog the place of Jesus Christ and His Word.
So it would appear that those so-called "churches of Christ" in Australia and New Zealand that have instrumental music are nothing more than bastardized congregations that have polluted themselves with the IM-toting Christian Churches/Disciples of Christ.

Regardless of whatever other names a congregation may call itself, a TRUE church of Christ congregation anywhere in the world does NOT have instrumental music.

***********************************************

Dr. Crump, those are strong words from a mere man. You are speaking for God where God has not spoken. For your own good you may want to qualify your statement with "in my opinion". JMHO


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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

September 6th, 2011, 3:46 pm #16

REMINDER: A civil discussion up to this point.
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Dave
Dave

September 6th, 2011, 6:18 pm #17

According to Wikipedia on the Restoration movement

75% of the congregations and 87% of the membership are mainline
25% others
None Institutional 2,500
No Separate Bible Class 1,100
One Cup 550
Mutual Edification 130

So, if you do them math (Donnie) you can calculate the total number of congregations any of which I could attend and be accepted if I did not try to upset their views.

Out of that number the ones who have been diverted to instruments as a separate (divided) assembly has been very tiny. Give three cheers for the preachers, elders, purple haired ladies, CM and piney.com.

I have been working with another large group which refused to go instrumental but compromised with singing groups. Members will be fighting even this bowing to Baal and allowing the hypocritic arts and artists to hog the place of Jesus Christ and His Word.
The statement that I gave is factual per God's truth. You will NEVER find documented the mention of musical machines in the assembly of saints every being condemned anywhere during the apostolic era and among Christians in the early centuries. Also you will NEVER find a PA system ever mentioned in existence anywhere during the apostolic era and among Christians in the early centuries. Many such items that we employ today to worship God were not used during the first century worship of God. Does that mean that a PA system is wrong? Certainly not.

My entire second paragraph, my own declaration of the Truth of God's Word, is just that....what God wants instead of what men, like you, want.

My advice to you, Donnie, is like what Sonny gave to you the other day. Give up living for satan and repent. Give this site to God and you and this site will flourish. As of now, you are in danger of hell fire. Notice where I said that you are in danger....not lost....as of yet. While your heart still beats, you have time to do what is right.
What you want is not of importance Donnie.....what God wishes is everything!
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Dave
Dave

September 6th, 2011, 6:25 pm #18

According to Wikipedia on the Restoration movement

75% of the congregations and 87% of the membership are mainline
25% others
None Institutional 2,500
No Separate Bible Class 1,100
One Cup 550
Mutual Edification 130

So, if you do them math (Donnie) you can calculate the total number of congregations any of which I could attend and be accepted if I did not try to upset their views.

Out of that number the ones who have been diverted to instruments as a separate (divided) assembly has been very tiny. Give three cheers for the preachers, elders, purple haired ladies, CM and piney.com.

I have been working with another large group which refused to go instrumental but compromised with singing groups. Members will be fighting even this bowing to Baal and allowing the hypocritic arts and artists to hog the place of Jesus Christ and His Word.
ADDITIONAL REMINDER....this is your site Donnie.....do what you want.....you always have.
Change, edit, delete....whatever will further your agenda....kind of like the way you handle the very Word of God. If there is something there that will not lend to your way of thinking and traditions.....deny it and keep discussion away from it.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

September 6th, 2011, 7:15 pm #19

You did an excellent job with your "PARODY." Your "originality" is valued highly [LOL ... and facetiously].

There is really no need to edit your messages (unless there is malice). You certainly deserve to be heard completely.
Last edited by Donnie.Cruz on September 6th, 2011, 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

September 6th, 2011, 7:16 pm #20

The statement that I gave is factual per God's truth. You will NEVER find documented the mention of musical machines in the assembly of saints every being condemned anywhere during the apostolic era and among Christians in the early centuries. Also you will NEVER find a PA system ever mentioned in existence anywhere during the apostolic era and among Christians in the early centuries. Many such items that we employ today to worship God were not used during the first century worship of God. Does that mean that a PA system is wrong? Certainly not.

My entire second paragraph, my own declaration of the Truth of God's Word, is just that....what God wants instead of what men, like you, want.

My advice to you, Donnie, is like what Sonny gave to you the other day. Give up living for satan and repent. Give this site to God and you and this site will flourish. As of now, you are in danger of hell fire. Notice where I said that you are in danger....not lost....as of yet. While your heart still beats, you have time to do what is right.
What you want is not of importance Donnie.....what God wishes is everything!
Christ (the Rock) established the Church of Christ in its first state to quarantine the godly people from the always-pagan sabbath worship which included the Jews.

If you cannot read then maybe predestination works?

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