Matthew 18:15-17

Matthew 18:15-17

Sonny
Sonny

September 6th, 2011, 4:25 am #1

Brother Cruz,

Post a letter of apology and repentance on this website and no longer publish divisive filth.

-Sonny
Quote
Share

Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

September 6th, 2011, 7:43 am #2

Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. (Romans 16:17)
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Brother Elliott,

I have read your recent posts in reference to instrumental music in the church of Christ Jesus. You are an angry man.

You seemed unwilling to accept the fact that this practice was the ultimate reason for the religious census of 1906 that settled the marked division between: (1) the church of Christ of which you CLAIM to be a member and (2) the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ group with some of its congregations maintaining the Church of Christ label.

Whether or not most of the "Churches of Christ" (Disciples of Christ/Christian Church) in Australia use instrumental music is not the point. The churches of Christ worldwide, including those in Australia, Africa, India, the Philippines, and other countries do not indulge in operating musical devices in their assemblies, with the exception of about 20 in the United States.

If you believe or even pretend that there is no or there hasn't been a division resulting from the operation of mechanical music [you know -- "mechanical" or "musical machinery"] in the assembly, you are in your delusionary state of mind.

If you believe that the church of Christ and the Christian/Disciples Church should be "united" with or without the trumpet or sackbut, then, go for it, by all means.

(1) The change agents have already done their part by initially using the professional services of the "Praise Team" (the Baptist "choir" in the church) and eventually implementing mechanical music in the assembly. Result????? Some 20 congregations that have embraced such changes (and many thanks to their ELDERS!!!). These congregations have either become Christian Church surrogates or converted to Community Church-ism.

(2) There is another task to accomplish. It is your turn to intrude upon the affairs of the Disciples/Christian Church. Try as hard as you can to convince them to sell their musical instruments or donate them to Goodwill or to other denominations.

Brother, I did not cause this division.

If there should be a letter of apology and repentance, do not expect that from me or from this website. That is not going to happen.

If I were you, I would immediately begin to obtain the mailing addresses of the change agents operating in the brotherhood -- we have already provided some of their names. Notify them and require them to write to thousands of congregations of the church of Christ Jesus a letter of apology and repentance ... and not to EVER do that anymore.

By the way, this website will continue to warn (maybe not you, but) your own relatives who may seem to wonder why you have fallen for the contemptible efforts of the change agents to divide the church over inanimate, lifeless musical objects. This website will continue to warn peaceful congregations that change agents may be arriving soon in their localities.

The divisive filth is in the evil schemes of the change agents.

Donnie Cruz
[/color]
Quote
Like
Share

Dave
Dave

September 6th, 2011, 12:18 pm #3

Brother Cruz,

Post a letter of apology and repentance on this website and no longer publish divisive filth.

-Sonny
I wouldn't expect you to pen such an apology Donnie.
Your arrogance and pride is huge....huge enough even to keep you out of heaven.
Quote
Share

Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

September 6th, 2011, 3:38 pm #4

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave, tell me what you did not understand when you read my response. I will be glad to elucidate further.

I am just a simple man with no aspirations to associate myself with the change agents whose pride is HUGE in making a HUGE name for themselves by rewriting the history of the Restoration Movement. Their influence is so HUGE as to create havoc in once-peaceful congregations. Huge names as MAX Lucado, Al MAXey [your favorite agent], Rick Atchley, et al. They are the discord sowers.

I am trying my very best to remain faithful in Christian living and to remain faithful and loyal to God's truth and His church. I'd rather not change the doctrine of Christ and His apostles, would you? The AGENTS OF CHANGE have done just that, and is it surprising why they're referred to as "change agents"? By not modifying and altering God's truth, I strongly believe I am safe in that regard.

What about you? Unlike you and your self-righteous judgment of others, I would leave it to God -- it will be His call on the Judgment Day.[/color]

Quote
Like
Share

Dave
Dave

September 6th, 2011, 6:06 pm #5

Brother Cruz,

Post a letter of apology and repentance on this website and no longer publish divisive filth.

-Sonny
Donnie, you said..."By not modifying and altering God's truth, I strongly believe I am safe in that regard."

You claim that four part harmony a capella is not altering God's Word. There is no authority for such, other than to sing. Singing is still accomplished even with the additional harmony parts. You PREFER the tradition of four-part a capella harmony.

Others claim that instrumental music is not altering God's Word. There is no authority for such, other than to sing. Singing is still accomplished even with the instruments aiding the singing. They prefer the tradition of instruments to aid the singing.

You consider one (instrumental music with the singing) to be wrong, while you don't consider the four part a capella singing to be wrong.
You have never proven, by the Word of God, where the one is right and preferred over the other...and....you never will.

You HAVE modified God's Truth by making instrumental music wrong. You have sinned for condemnation of such. You condemn someone for judging, yet you do the same. It is called hypocrisy.
Quote
Share

Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

September 6th, 2011, 7:10 pm #6

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave,

Where is brother Sonny when you need him to defend your argument or cause?

Four-part harmony is not a musical object or device. You know better. A musical device, lifeless and inanimate at that, must be struck, percussed, beat or played (or "played with" as a professional toy) to produce sounds or noises. You would not want that done to your vocal cords.

The purpose of singing or speaking hymns in the assembly is to "let the word of Christ dwell in you RICHLY (Colossians 3:16). It means that in order to "teach and admonish one another" via singing or speaking in the assembly, the message expressed in the hymn must be clear and understandable. The musical device does not have a message to convey whatsoever. So, what is the purpose of blowing the trumpet or strumming the guitar? Answer, anyone? Dave?

I must admit that even the four-part harmony, when it's too complex and redirects the attention and focus away from the truth being clearly understood and from indwelling in us richly, may not be conducive to the teaching and admonition that ought to take place in the assembly.

Singing and speaking to teach and admonish is an "apostolic tradition." Do not confuse that with the man-made, papal-decreed (Roman Catholic Church) tradition of operating musical devices in "the Mass."

Besides, you can still have "singing" WHILE playing the sackbut or blowing the trumpet -- just as well as WHEN you're burning incense or singing praises and adoration to the Immaculate Conception, the Virgin Mary ("Mother of God") WHILE singing. We know about the ability of man to MULTI-TASK in God's presence.

When there is no mention in Scripture of using inanimate, lifeless musical objects and devices in the assembly of New Testament saints, IN THE FIRST PLACE, obviously, there is no modification or alteration involved.

No, Dave, I have not modified or altered the Scripture -- it is still intact.
[/color]
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

September 6th, 2011, 8:00 pm #7

The first census in 1906 did not change anything. It listed the Churches of Christ separate from the Methodists; this does not prove that the churches of christ now belongs to the Methodists.

The only urge for unity between what became the Disciples of Christ/Christian churches and what became The Church of Christ included a few handshakes: this was based on a set of standards from which Churches of Christ have never deviated. The Disciples wsent out and almost immediately got in bed with the Millerites (SDA), formed a "society" and decided that THEY had to convert all of the Jews before Jesus COULD RETURN on time in 1844.

Alexander adopted the title of The Millennial Harbinger to examine all of the views and REPUDIATED all of them. He laughed at the notion that a UNION could be achieved by afew handshakes.

In 1906 the Disciples/Christian Churches had a grand denominational scheme to "include ALL OF CHRISTENDOM." They held almost nothing in common with The Churches of Christ: the Stoneites rejected the Atonement. The Churches of Christ were essentially the same after the Disciples sowed discord among most DISCIPLES by introducing instruments. The discorders got their way but the Churches of Christ were not part of their denomination.

The NACC or Christian Church did not begin to SECT OUT of the Disciples until 1927 and were not counted separately until 1971: that was the time they began their hostile attack: then and now they promote UNITY MEETINGS meaning that YOU have to Conform or Confirm to OUR views before you can be one of US. Leroy Garrett was a fundamentaly promoter of the Stone-Campbell REunion and that was about the worst deliberatel lie promotedby the NACC and just a handfull of DUPES they BOUGHT by flattery.

Here is what the CHRISTIAN CHURCHES were promoting and explains why the Churches of Christ were more closely aligned with the Baptists than wikth the Christian Churches.



When someone says that MOST churches of Christ in Australia are INSTRUMENTAL what the persom means is "at least in my little area." A church of Christ with instruments belongsto the denomination Christian Church-Churches of Christ. They adopted Churches of Christ instead of their title The Church of Christ undoubdetly to sow confusion.

Most of the effort to plant non-instrumental churches of Christ began in about 1937. When the first missionaries went there the CoC was a denomination.

Quote
Like
Share

Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

September 6th, 2011, 8:04 pm #8

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave,

Where is brother Sonny when you need him to defend your argument or cause?

Four-part harmony is not a musical object or device. You know better. A musical device, lifeless and inanimate at that, must be struck, percussed, beat or played (or "played with" as a professional toy) to produce sounds or noises. You would not want that done to your vocal cords.

The purpose of singing or speaking hymns in the assembly is to "let the word of Christ dwell in you RICHLY (Colossians 3:16). It means that in order to "teach and admonish one another" via singing or speaking in the assembly, the message expressed in the hymn must be clear and understandable. The musical device does not have a message to convey whatsoever. So, what is the purpose of blowing the trumpet or strumming the guitar? Answer, anyone? Dave?

I must admit that even the four-part harmony, when it's too complex and redirects the attention and focus away from the truth being clearly understood and from indwelling in us richly, may not be conducive to the teaching and admonition that ought to take place in the assembly.

Singing and speaking to teach and admonish is an "apostolic tradition." Do not confuse that with the man-made, papal-decreed (Roman Catholic Church) tradition of operating musical devices in "the Mass."

Besides, you can still have "singing" WHILE playing the sackbut or blowing the trumpet -- just as well as WHEN you're burning incense or singing praises and adoration to the Immaculate Conception, the Virgin Mary ("Mother of God") WHILE singing. We know about the ability of man to MULTI-TASK in God's presence.

When there is no mention in Scripture of using inanimate, lifeless musical objects and devices in the assembly of New Testament saints, IN THE FIRST PLACE, obviously, there is no modification or alteration involved.

No, Dave, I have not modified or altered the Scripture -- it is still intact.
[/color]
Didn't Dave favor us with his vain, repetitious bit of "You're a sinner!" some months ago? Could it be that he's starting it all over again? Oh, the originality!
Quote
Share

Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

September 6th, 2011, 8:42 pm #9

Donnie, you said..."By not modifying and altering God's truth, I strongly believe I am safe in that regard."

You claim that four part harmony a capella is not altering God's Word. There is no authority for such, other than to sing. Singing is still accomplished even with the additional harmony parts. You PREFER the tradition of four-part a capella harmony.

Others claim that instrumental music is not altering God's Word. There is no authority for such, other than to sing. Singing is still accomplished even with the instruments aiding the singing. They prefer the tradition of instruments to aid the singing.

You consider one (instrumental music with the singing) to be wrong, while you don't consider the four part a capella singing to be wrong.
You have never proven, by the Word of God, where the one is right and preferred over the other...and....you never will.

You HAVE modified God's Truth by making instrumental music wrong. You have sinned for condemnation of such. You condemn someone for judging, yet you do the same. It is called hypocrisy.
A cappella singing with two-, three-, or four-part harmony does not alter the New Testament, because Christ never addressed harmony in singing. Had Christ said, "Praise Me by singing in unison" or "Praise Me with four-part harmony," then to sing otherwise would have been to defy His Word. Since Christ through Paul only said to sing and make melody in the heart, then harmony is not a factor; neither is volume or tempo, because Christ never addressed those. Had Christ said, "Praise Me with music," then we would have had carte blanche to praise Him with whatever kinds of music (vocal and/or instrumental) we desired. Instead, Christ limited us to singing and making melody in the heart. If we ADD instruments, it's another kind of music Christ did not authorize. He need not condemn IM with words; His directives are sufficient to limit us, for we may not override His explicit directives. Those who claim that IM is fine because it "accompanies" or "enhances" the singing do speak where Christ has not spoken.

What about the good-ole PA systems that some folks always like to bring up? What about those as well as rest rooms, electricity, air conditioning, heating, kitchens, podiums, pews, song books, carpets, drapes, and a thousand other non-essentials that are in virtually all churches? Having any or all of those items does NOT violate the New Testament, because Christ never addressed any of them. None of those items clash or defy the Gospel or any of Christ's explicit directives. Yet many people would rather yield to their worldly desires; hence, they insist on mixing, comparing, and confusing doctrinal issues (which Christ explicitly addressed in the New Testament) with non-essential issues (which Christ never addressed).
Quote
Share

Sonny
Sonny

September 6th, 2011, 10:14 pm #10

Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. (Romans 16:17)
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Brother Elliott,

I have read your recent posts in reference to instrumental music in the church of Christ Jesus. You are an angry man.

You seemed unwilling to accept the fact that this practice was the ultimate reason for the religious census of 1906 that settled the marked division between: (1) the church of Christ of which you CLAIM to be a member and (2) the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ group with some of its congregations maintaining the Church of Christ label.

Whether or not most of the "Churches of Christ" (Disciples of Christ/Christian Church) in Australia use instrumental music is not the point. The churches of Christ worldwide, including those in Australia, Africa, India, the Philippines, and other countries do not indulge in operating musical devices in their assemblies, with the exception of about 20 in the United States.

If you believe or even pretend that there is no or there hasn't been a division resulting from the operation of mechanical music [you know -- "mechanical" or "musical machinery"] in the assembly, you are in your delusionary state of mind.

If you believe that the church of Christ and the Christian/Disciples Church should be "united" with or without the trumpet or sackbut, then, go for it, by all means.

(1) The change agents have already done their part by initially using the professional services of the "Praise Team" (the Baptist "choir" in the church) and eventually implementing mechanical music in the assembly. Result????? Some 20 congregations that have embraced such changes (and many thanks to their ELDERS!!!). These congregations have either become Christian Church surrogates or converted to Community Church-ism.

(2) There is another task to accomplish. It is your turn to intrude upon the affairs of the Disciples/Christian Church. Try as hard as you can to convince them to sell their musical instruments or donate them to Goodwill or to other denominations.

Brother, I did not cause this division.

If there should be a letter of apology and repentance, do not expect that from me or from this website. That is not going to happen.

If I were you, I would immediately begin to obtain the mailing addresses of the change agents operating in the brotherhood -- we have already provided some of their names. Notify them and require them to write to thousands of congregations of the church of Christ Jesus a letter of apology and repentance ... and not to EVER do that anymore.

By the way, this website will continue to warn (maybe not you, but) your own relatives who may seem to wonder why you have fallen for the contemptible efforts of the change agents to divide the church over inanimate, lifeless musical objects. This website will continue to warn peaceful congregations that change agents may be arriving soon in their localities.

The divisive filth is in the evil schemes of the change agents.

Donnie Cruz
[/color]
Attack me as being angry. Deny that this site is divisive or going against Matthew 18:15-17. I am just guessing you have never talked directly with Rick Atchley about any issues, nor any of these other Christian men. Have you? If not, these actions are wrong and sinful. If so, but now going public on this forum instead of directly to those congregations, is wrong and sinful. Jesus may or may not be angry for you not living by Matthew 18:15-17. I have no reason to be angry. Again, I believe your motives are pure.

-Sonny
Quote
Share