Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

September 8th, 2011, 5:10 am #21

William Crump said "Since Christ through Paul only said to sing..."

Paul NEVER said to ONLY sing, but to sing. Nice play on words William. When you are looking to prove your point without the backing of the Scriptures you have to resort to such devious tactics.


William also said "What about those as well as rest rooms, electricity, air conditioning, heating, kitchens, podiums, pews, song books, carpets, drapes, and a thousand other non-essentials that are in virtually all churches? Having any or all of those items does NOT violate the New Testament, because Christ never addressed any of them. None of those items clash or defy the Gospel or any of Christ's explicit directives."

Correct, and instruments played to aid the singing ALSO do not clash or defy the Gospel or any of Christ's explicit directives. With or without the instruments, the directive of singing is still accomplished.
Dave's Declarative Statement:
<ol>[*]Blowing the trumpet (or beating the drums) unto the Lord aids (enhances) the singing.
</li>[*]Blowing the trumpet (or beating the drums) unto the Lord does not clash or defy the gospel or any of Christ's explicit directives.
</li>[*]Therefore, while blowing or not blowing the trumpet (or beating or not beating the drums) unto the Lord, the directive of singing is still accomplished.
</li>[/list]Following Dave's Declaration:
<ol>[*]Burning incense unto the Lord aids (makes more meaningful) the singing.
</li>[*]Burning incense unto the Lord does not clash or defy the gospel or any of Christ's explicit directives.
</li>[*]Therefore, with or without burning incense, the directive of singing is still accomplished.
</li>[/list]Needless to say, we know Dave's PREFERENCE. [BTW, the expressions "preferences" and "traditions" are Dave's favorite defense mechanisms when presenting his LOGIC as originating from God.]

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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

September 8th, 2011, 5:55 am #22

Two commands....
1)You shall not kill
2)Sing

Number one is definitive.....no gray areas.
Number two is not meant to be as definitive as number 1. It is general and is not prohibitive of aids (instruments of music) to accompany the singing. To sing with an instrument to accompany the singing is just that....SINGING WHILE playing an instrument to accompany the singing. The singing is accomplished with a capella or instruments of music to AID the singing.
END OF STORY!
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave,

Your premise above is erroneous. So, let the Scripture teach you the truth:[/color]
"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." (Col. 3:16)

"Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;" (Eph. 5:19)
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]COMMAND: Let the word of Christ indwell; teach and admonish one another.

MEDIUM/METHOD: Speaking or singing (either way, essentially reciting)

OBJECT: Psalms, hymns, spiritual songs -- the word of Christ.

MECHANICAL MUSIC is scripturally displaced (has no place) in the assembly of saints:

1. Operating the musical machinery is not a command.
2. It is not a method or a medium to speak the truth.
3. It is an object (inanimate, lifeless) that is not and cannot convey the truth.[/color]



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Dave
Dave

September 8th, 2011, 6:31 am #23

Brother Cruz,

Post a letter of apology and repentance on this website and no longer publish divisive filth.

-Sonny
Donnie said "MECHANICAL MUSIC is scripturally displaced (has no place) in the assembly of saints:..."

DISPLACED is it now?
Not WRONG now, but DISPLACED according to the gospel of Donnie.

1. Operating the musical machinery is not a command. NEITHER....is operating a PA. Both the PA and musical instruments can aid the singing.
2. It (musical instruments) is not a method or a medium to speak the truth. No, it just AIDS the method of singing.
3. It (musical instruments) is an object (inanimate, lifeless) that is not and cannot convey the truth. Vocal singing can be lifeless too if the heart and spirit are not there. Anyone can sing but just go through the motions. Again, the instrument is used to aid the singing and the spirit of the words from the person can be acceptable worship to God.

Donnie, you can't win here. It is not possible.
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

September 8th, 2011, 1:56 pm #24

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave,

Your premise above is erroneous. So, let the Scripture teach you the truth:[/color]
"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." (Col. 3:16)

"Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;" (Eph. 5:19)
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]COMMAND: Let the word of Christ indwell; teach and admonish one another.

MEDIUM/METHOD: Speaking or singing (either way, essentially reciting)

OBJECT: Psalms, hymns, spiritual songs -- the word of Christ.

MECHANICAL MUSIC is scripturally displaced (has no place) in the assembly of saints:

1. Operating the musical machinery is not a command.
2. It is not a method or a medium to speak the truth.
3. It is an object (inanimate, lifeless) that is not and cannot convey the truth.[/color]


Dave doesn't seem to realize that the New Testament mentions NOTHING about "aiding," "enchancing," or "accompaning" the singing with any other kinds of music. Only man takes it upon himself to ASSUME that he can go beyond the New Testament and ADD other kinds of music to "aid," "enhance," and "accompany" the singing. When man does that, he speaks where the New Testament does not.

I'll spell it all out again for those who were too obstinate to get it the first time. Volume, tempo, pitch, and unison/harmony are non-issues, because Jesus never addressed them. Whenever we sing, there must be volume (loud or soft), tempo (fast, medium, or slow), and pitch (where in the vocal range to begin singing). Singing may be in unison or in harmony. Since Jesus addressed NONE of those issues, we have the freedom to use them with our singing as we see fit. If people are going to make an issue out of "complex" harmony, they must also deal with volume, tempo, and pitch, because they form the basic elements of singing.

PA systems, Dave's favorite (and fallacious) argument is also a non-issue, because Jesus also never addressed them. PA systems only amplify sound that originates elsewhere, nothing more.

On the other hand, we do NOT have the freedom to use musical instruments, because Jesus authorized/specified singing. If we ADD instrumental music to the vocal music, we ADD another kind of music that Jesus did not authorize/specify. Again, those who ADD IM speak where the New Testament does not.

Don't be obstinate. Stick with a cappella singing and you'll do well.
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JimmyJoe
JimmyJoe

September 8th, 2011, 9:29 pm #25

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave,

Your premise above is erroneous. So, let the Scripture teach you the truth:[/color]
"Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." (Col. 3:16)

"Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;" (Eph. 5:19)
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]COMMAND: Let the word of Christ indwell; teach and admonish one another.

MEDIUM/METHOD: Speaking or singing (either way, essentially reciting)

OBJECT: Psalms, hymns, spiritual songs -- the word of Christ.

MECHANICAL MUSIC is scripturally displaced (has no place) in the assembly of saints:

1. Operating the musical machinery is not a command.
2. It is not a method or a medium to speak the truth.
3. It is an object (inanimate, lifeless) that is not and cannot convey the truth.[/color]


I enjoy watching people use the old pick and choose theology of scripture to prove their point. As I used to hear years ago, give me the chapter and verse that proves the two verses you picked pertain to a worship service. As I have read the entire chapters that contain said verses, my personal impression is that they pertain to how we live our daily lives. Personally I think Col.3:12-14 are some pretty important verses. Actually, you don't have to prove anything to me as I have yet to see anyone on this site change their mind about what they personally believe. Therefore, no rebuttal is necessary.
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

September 9th, 2011, 2:25 am #26

Donnie said "MECHANICAL MUSIC is scripturally displaced (has no place) in the assembly of saints:..."

DISPLACED is it now?
Not WRONG now, but DISPLACED according to the gospel of Donnie.

1. Operating the musical machinery is not a command. NEITHER....is operating a PA. Both the PA and musical instruments can aid the singing.
2. It (musical instruments) is not a method or a medium to speak the truth. No, it just AIDS the method of singing.
3. It (musical instruments) is an object (inanimate, lifeless) that is not and cannot convey the truth. Vocal singing can be lifeless too if the heart and spirit are not there. Anyone can sing but just go through the motions. Again, the instrument is used to aid the singing and the spirit of the words from the person can be acceptable worship to God.

Donnie, you can't win here. It is not possible.
"You Are Fighting a Losing Battle." We've seen those words from Dave on many occasions in the past, yet Dave is still fighting his own battle with this site--and still losing as usual.

So what else is new?
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

September 9th, 2011, 9:20 am #27

I enjoy watching people use the old pick and choose theology of scripture to prove their point. As I used to hear years ago, give me the chapter and verse that proves the two verses you picked pertain to a worship service. As I have read the entire chapters that contain said verses, my personal impression is that they pertain to how we live our daily lives. Personally I think Col.3:12-14 are some pretty important verses. Actually, you don't have to prove anything to me as I have yet to see anyone on this site change their mind about what they personally believe. Therefore, no rebuttal is necessary.
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]I concur. There is no question whatsoever that every Christian is responsible for his own life and soul whether ALONE or in A GATHERING OF SAINTS.

"Teaching and admonishing ONE ANOTHER" suggests to me that an ASSEMBLY of saints may be involved. [How did the expression "worship service" originate, anyway? Heb. 10:25 simply mentions -- "not forsaking the ASSEMBLING of ourselves together ... exhorting one another."]

But there are other options, especially when it is not so inconvenient as in facilitating the "teaching and admonishing ONE ANOTHER" by conference call or by making hundreds of individual phone calls. [Of course, I'm being facetious. ][/color]
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

September 9th, 2011, 9:31 am #28

Donnie said "MECHANICAL MUSIC is scripturally displaced (has no place) in the assembly of saints:..."

DISPLACED is it now?
Not WRONG now, but DISPLACED according to the gospel of Donnie.

1. Operating the musical machinery is not a command. NEITHER....is operating a PA. Both the PA and musical instruments can aid the singing.
2. It (musical instruments) is not a method or a medium to speak the truth. No, it just AIDS the method of singing.
3. It (musical instruments) is an object (inanimate, lifeless) that is not and cannot convey the truth. Vocal singing can be lifeless too if the heart and spirit are not there. Anyone can sing but just go through the motions. Again, the instrument is used to aid the singing and the spirit of the words from the person can be acceptable worship to God.

Donnie, you can't win here. It is not possible.
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave,

No, I am not fighting a losing battle.

You are. You are the one going against the grain. The church of which you claim to be a member does not indulge in the operation of mechanical music in the assembly -- like it or not. [/color]
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

September 9th, 2011, 2:51 pm #29

Yes, Dave is fighting a desperate battle with this site, a battle he will never win. The only way Dave could ever "win" would be to convince this site to believe as he does, embrace the Change Movement, and endorse musical instruments in worship. That will never happen, of course, and Dave actually knows that. But tilting at the proverbial windmills as Don Quixote did keeps Dave busy here and out of trouble elsewhere.
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R*
R*

September 9th, 2011, 6:17 pm #30




Dr. Crump, Ken, and Donnie, I think y'all are just plain wrong on the IM issue. However, we will never change the minds of each other.

Thanks to all for a "civil discussion".
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