Madison's New (Instrumental) 'Vision'

Racnor
Racnor

August 31st, 2012, 4:34 am #61

Where is "Scripture" when you really need him?
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B
B

August 31st, 2012, 1:06 pm #62

Ken, harmony is akin to IM because neither were authorized. Right?
Had the New Testament addressed harmony, either pro or con, then we would have had to abide by that directive. But the New Testament doesn't address harmony--or pitch or volume or tempo--so man has liberty there.

On the other hand, the New Testament does address the kind of music we are to use, which is vocal music. So, by the neither-add-to-nor-take-from command, we are not at liberty to add other kinds of music, such as instrumental music.

There is a considerable difference between that which is authorized, like vocal music; that which is not authorized by virtue of the neither-add-to-nor-take-from command, like instrumental music; and that which is not addressed in any form or fashion, like harmony, volume, pitch, and tempo.

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Scripture
Scripture

August 31st, 2012, 2:12 pm #63

Where is "Scripture" when you really need him?
Differences in singing and speaking are hardly just objective. That is speaking merges into singing, when intonation and personal expression such as bodily expressions are considered. Singing is an expanded form of the intonation of speaking.

With speaking there is intonation of voice as well as personal expression such as facial expressions, and these are pre-expressions of our modern singing. Even in speaking there are somewhat musical expressions, such as Romans 6, where Paul suddenly says ""God forbid!" or "May it never be!" Speaking in this respect is little different from singing. Singing also gives expression to the church as a corporate body, and is an aspect of "confessing" Christ not only individually but corporately. We see this every worship in interpreting both the objective message and well as the speaker's intent and sincerity.

One of the main emphases in 1 Cor. 14 is the sharing of the gospel of Christ with the entire community. Should someone have a psalm, a teaching, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation then that gift is to be shared with the entire community of faith (v. 26), but it should be shared in a teaching and understandable way (vss. 27, 28). This is a far cry from the modern system of paid clergy and entrenched church bureaucracy.

It is generally agreed that Phil 2:6-11 is a song in that it has lofty language; 1 Tim 3:16 contains language such as can be used in our hymns today. These are shadows of the modern hymnal singing.

Did you ever wonder whether the Apostle Paul would have been shocked if he could have seen that one day that his writings are considered the way the we do today?



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Scripture
Scripture

August 31st, 2012, 2:14 pm #64

Where is "Scripture" when you really need him?
Differences in singing and speaking are hardly just objective. That is speaking merges into singing, when intonation and personal expression such as bodily expressions are considered. Singing is an expanded form of the intonation of speaking.

With speaking there is intonation of voice as well as personal expression such as facial expressions, and these are pre-expressions of our modern singing. Even in speaking there are somewhat musical expressions, such as Romans 6, where Paul suddenly says ""God forbid!" or "May it never be!" Speaking in this respect is little different from singing. Singing also gives expression to the church as a corporate body, and is an aspect of "confessing" Christ not only individually but corporately. We see this every worship in interpreting both the objective message and well as the speaker's intent and sincerity.

One of the main emphases in 1 Cor. 14 is the sharing of the gospel of Christ with the entire community. Should someone have a psalm, a teaching, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation then that gift is to be shared with the entire community of faith (v. 26), but it should be shared in a teaching and understandable way (vss. 27, 28). This is a far cry from the modern system of paid clergy and entrenched church bureaucracy.

It is generally agreed that Phil 2:6-11 is a song in that it has lofty language; 1 Tim 3:16 contains language such as can be used in our hymns today. These are shadows of the modern hymnal singing.

Did you ever wonder whether the Apostle Paul would have been shocked if he could have seen that one day that his writings are considered the way the we do today?



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Scripture
Scripture

August 31st, 2012, 3:05 pm #65

Where is "Scripture" when you really need him?
Differences in singing and speaking are hardly just objective. That is, speaking merges into singing, when intonation and personal expression such as bodily expressions are considered. Singing is an expanded form of the intonation of speaking.

With speaking there is intonation of voice as well as personal expression such as facial expressions, and these are pre-expressions of our modern singing. Even in speaking there are somewhat musical expressions, such as Romans 6, where Paul suddenly says "God forbid!" or "May it never be!" Speaking in this respect is little different from singing. Singing also gives expression to the church as a corporate body, and is an aspect of "confessing" Christ not only individually but corporately. We see this every worship in interpreting both the objective message and well as the speaker's intent and sincerity.

One of the main emphases in 1 Cor. 14 is the sharing of the gospel of Christ with the entire community. Should someone have a psalm, a teaching, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation then that gift is to be shared with the entire community of faith (v. 26), but it should be shared in a teaching and understandable way (vss. 27, 28). This is a far cry from the modern system of paid clergy and entrenched church bureaucracy.

It is generally agreed that Phil 2:6-11 is a song in that it has lofty language; 1 Tim 3:16 contains language such as can be used in our hymns today. These are shadows of the modern hymnal singing.

Did you ever wonder whether the Apostle Paul would have been shocked if he could have seen that one day that his writings are considered the way the we do today?
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

August 31st, 2012, 4:37 pm #66

Original Message <font face="times" size="3">(June 11 2012 at 3:32 AM):</font>

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[color=#000000" size="5" face="times]Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision"[/color]
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Last month the elders announced Madison's new "vision" that approves the use of instrumental music. If someone wrote about this I didn't see it.

They said that using instruments is not a "salvation issue". Both services will use acappella music for now, but the first service will now get a praise team like the second service. And the second service will have more creative worship.

But the youth group gets to start using instrumental music. They said light acoustical instruments.

This seems like a huge change so I was surprised not to see it here yet.


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[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]NOTE:The information above has been submitted anonymously. Meanwhile, we have opted to substitute "Concerned" for "Anonymous" as the name. The message remains unedited.
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[color=#000000" size="3" face="times]We've heard from the author who is a long-time member of Madison and would like to be identified as "MCC-Torn" [... and appropriately so].[/color]
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[color=#0000FF" size="5" face="times]Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision": Cymbals, Psalteries, Harps ANATHEMA
By Ken Sublett[/color]



Heritage Church of Christ following the ACU pattern has imposed what he calls instrumental music.

http://www.piney.com/Heritage.Church.of ... Music.html

Jim Hackney led by the NACC at ACU gives his "proof texts" all of which are lies because he does not know the context.

http://www.piney.com/Jim.Hackney.Instru ... rship.html

The expression "having cymbals and psalteries and harps" is not a pattern for Christian worship: it is defined as the worship of Apollo (abaddon, Apollyon) and Dionysus first outed at Mount Sinai. If God turned them over to worship the starry host, and scholars agree that the Jews worshipped the starry host on their way back to Babylon, why do you suppose that latter day elders fulfil the warning of Paul against wolves and violently impose the same patternism: Who knows? both the Shadow and any Bible student knows.

http://www.piney.com/Having.Cymbals.and ... s.and.html
The direct command is to "Use ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH to teach that which is written for our learning which Paul defines as Scripture. Because there is absolutely NO MUSIC possible in SPEAKING that which is written WITHOUT MEASURE or METRON: meter. That is Why Jesus is the personified WORD or LOGOS: Logos is defined to specificially EXCLUDE Jewish fables, poetry or music. SPEAK is exclusive and if you can take the liberty to SANG in mind-altering harmony then simple simons can say that you STILL sang even if you CLANGE.

IT'S JUST THIS SIMPLE: ADULTS DO NOT MAKE MUSIC WHEN JESUS (The Holy Spirit and ONLY Teacher and Mediator) appears WHEN the Elders "Teach that which has been taught."

Again, you have to be faithful to the Word of God: there is not a command, example or remote inference that any godly people congregated for singing with or without instruments. In fact, The Church of Christ (the Rock) ordained the Qahal, synagogue or Church of Christ in the wilderness.

INCLUSIVE of Rest, reading and rehearsing the Word of God.
EXCLUSIVE of vocal or instrumental rejoicing or high sounding rhetoric: Jesus called them hypocrites.
There was never any singing or praise service in the synagogue because the PURPOSE was:

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath
.....in every city (groups as small as 10 families Ex
.....them that preach him,
.....being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Ex. 18:20 And thou shalt teach them ordinances and laws,
.....and shalt shew them the way wherein they must walk,
.....and the work that they must do.

caermna
A. Objectively, sacredness, sanctity sanctitas regum, et caerimonia deorum. legationis
B. [select] Subjectively, a holy dread, awe, reverence, veneration of the Deity (external; while religio has regard both to internal and external reverence for God

ostendo , A. In gen., to show, disclose, exhibit, manifest: ille dies cum glori maxim sese nobis ostendat, 2. Transf.: vocem, to make heard, Phaedr. 1, 13, 9.
1. To show, express, indicate by speech or signs; to give to understand, to declare, say, tell, make known, etc. (syn.: indico, declaro, significo). :

Ex. 18:21 Moreover thou shalt provide
tout of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness;
.....and place such over them, to be
.....rulers of thousands,
.....and rulers of hundreds,
.....rulers of fifties, and
.....rulers of tens:

When SINGING as ACT was imposed as late as ad 373 and SPLIT the east and west churches, why would we think that those great scholars NEVER thought of anything TUNEFUL when you GATHER YOURSELVES to Read and Discuss the Word.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

August 31st, 2012, 5:00 pm #67

Babylonian Tablets proves that people knew how to MANIPULATE people with "god sounds."

It's perfectly clear to Nimrod--the mighty hunter AGAINST God and modern science as reported in Time Magazine.

http://www.piney.com/MuTimeBrain.html

It's hard to exaggerate the effect music can have on the human brain. A mere snippet of song from the past can trigger memories as vivid as anything Proust experienced from the aroma of his petite madeleine.

A tune can induce emotions ranging from unabashed joy to deep sorrow and can drive listeners into states of patriotic fervor or religious frenzy-- to say nothing of its legendary ability to soothe the savage beast.

Yet in spite of music's remarkable influence on the human psyche, scientists have spent little time attempting to understand why it possesses such potency.

"We tend to think of music as an art or a cultural attribute," notes Robert Zatorre, a neuroscientist at McGill University in Montreal,

"but it is a complex human behavior that is as worthy of scientific study as any other."

That's why Zatorre helped organize a conference, "The Biological Foundations of Music," sponsored last week by the New York Academy of Sciences, at which experts in disciplines ranging from neuroscience and neurology to brain imaging and psychology met to exchange notes about what's known--and, more important, what remains to be learned--in this small but growing field.

What seems clear is that the ability to experience and react to music is deeply embedded in the biology of the nervous system.

While music tends to be processed mostly in the right hemisphere(FEMININE) of the brain, no single set of cells is devoted to the task

Different networks of neurons are activated, depending on whether a person is listening to music or playing an instrument, and whether or not the music involves lyrics.

Specific brain disorders can affect the perception of music in very specific ways. Experiments done on epileptics decades ago showed that stimulating certain areas of the temporal lobe on both sides of the brain awakened "musical memories"--vivid re-creations of melodies that the patients had heard years earlier.

Lesions in the temporal lobe can result in so-called musicogenic epilepsy, an extremely rare form of the disorder in which seizures are triggered by the sound of music. Autism offers an even greater puzzle. People with this condition are mentally deficient, yet most are proficient musicians; some are "musical savants" possessed of extraordinary talent.

The opposite is true of the less than 1% of the population who suffer from amusia, or true tone deafness. They literally cannot recognize a melody, let alone tell two of them apart, and they are incapable of repeating a song (although they think they are doing it correctly). Even simple, familiar tunes such as Frere Jacques and Happy Birthday are mystifying to amusics, but when the lyrics are spoken rather than sung, amusics are able to recognize the song immediately.

"This goes way beyond an inability to carry a tune," observes psychologist Isabelle Peretz of the University of Montreal. "They can't dance, and they can't tell the difference between consonance [harmony] and dissonance either.

They all appear to have been born without the wiring necessary to process music." Intriguingly, people with amusia show no overt signs of brain damage or short-term-memory impairment, and magnetic-resonance-imaging scans of their brains look normal.

There is evidently no way to help these unfortunate folks (though, admittedly, they don't know what they're missing).But for instrumentalists, at least, music can evidently trigger physical changes in the brain's wiring.

By measuring faint magnetic fields emitted by the brains of professional musicians, a team led by Christo Pantev of the University of Muenster's Institute of Experimental Audiology in Germany has shown that intensive practice of an instrument leads to discernible enlargement of parts of the cerebral cortex, the layer of gray matter most closely associated with higher brain function.

As for music's emotional impact, there is some indication that music can affect levels of various hormones,

including cortisol (involved in arousal and stress),

Consider the following three types of damage that takes place in our bodies under exposure to loud volume.

First, loud volume slows down our ability to memorize and do other brain functions by constricting the flow of blood to the brain. In the words of Dr. Arnold Scheivel, professor of medicine at UCLA and an expert on brain growth, "If there is a bottom line, it is that no neuron is healthier than the capillary that supplies it.

We have a very strong feeling that in the capillary supply system is the story of the maintenance or slow decline of the brain." How does volume effect blood supply? The blood vessels undergo a narrowing of caliber in the presence of loud sound. This narrowing decreases the flow of blood to the different parts of the body, including the mind. A person studying under the influence of loud music has a decrease in the amount of blood flowing to the brain. This makes it more difficult to memorize and to understand their studies.

Second, loud music can cause a form of schizophrenia. When a person is exposed to high level sound, a chemical is formed in the brain that is normally found in schizophrenia patients in mental institutions. A music therapist, investigating the effects of loud music, gave an emotional stability test to 240 teenagers while they listened to music.

A psychologist, who was unaware of how it was given, examined the results and determined that the test had been given in a mental institution.

Martin Polo, the director of Audio Visual Services at UCLA and noise consultant for the aerospace industry and related technologies writes, "Lastly, the presence of continued exposure to high level sound can trigger psychopathological impacts on individuals."

These impacts can range from depressions noted among females during the menstrual period to actual presence in the brain of chemicals normally found in schizophrenia and psychosis. There are a number of other interesting reaction to the presence of high level sound which involve the brain, including interference with vision.

Third, loud music can cause ulcers. When susceptible individuals are exposed to loud sound over a period of time, certain stomach functions are disrupted and an increase of hydrochloric acid is released, causing ulceration of the stomach. Martin Polon of UCLA writes, "The continuing exposure to high energy sound creates a stress reaction in the body that significantly involves the gastrointestinal system. Certain stomach functions are disrupted by abnormal contractions of the abdominal area, and increased infusion of hydrochloric acid causing dyspepsia. Recurring activation of this syndrome will lead to peptic ulceration in susceptible individuals.


ORGANUM or "After the Pipe Organ" may be more damaging than using instruments since the "audience" is pretty well dummed. MOST congregational seeks to be LOUD, Musically CORRECT, and the PARTS enter into combat to make their PART stand out.

A Disciple of Christ commanded to teach and observe WHAT HE commanded should never put SILENCE above a command which cannot be misunderstood. Jesus SPOKE or Cantillated the YEARLY halal and went out.

It really could matter less if you intend to violate the command to TEACH THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN FOR OUR LEARNING

Congregational singing, when the NACC and JUBILEEATORS such as Flat, Shelly etal, almost ceased when their disciples scrapped the song books and bought Howard's (Vineyard) PRAISE BOOK. We had an expert musician from a college who taught us to ROCK the beat by JUMPING over the bar and hitting with a thud. Undoubtedly, even the so-called conservative preachers made School of Christ into WORSHIP ONLY which they define out of the Pagan Song Books and which James repudates as contrary to PURE religion.


Last edited by Ken.Sublett on August 31st, 2012, 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Racnor
Racnor

September 1st, 2012, 3:28 pm #68

Had the New Testament addressed harmony, either pro or con, then we would have had to abide by that directive. But the New Testament doesn't address harmony--or pitch or volume or tempo--so man has liberty there.

On the other hand, the New Testament does address the kind of music we are to use, which is vocal music. So, by the neither-add-to-nor-take-from command, we are not at liberty to add other kinds of music, such as instrumental music.

There is a considerable difference between that which is authorized, like vocal music; that which is not authorized by virtue of the neither-add-to-nor-take-from command, like instrumental music; and that which is not addressed in any form or fashion, like harmony, volume, pitch, and tempo.
"B" has become quite comfortable speaking for God where God has not spoken. Perhaps his conscience has become comfortably numb.


1 Timothy 4

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Now the Spirit manifestly saith, that in the last times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to spirits of error, and doctrines of devils, 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy, and having their conscience seared
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B
B

September 1st, 2012, 5:18 pm #69

Many people do not like what is written in the New Testament, especially if it does not satisfy their personal desires, so when Bible-believers cite what is written therein, the scoffers smear those believers as "speaking for God." Take the neither-add-to-nor-take-from command, for instance. Racnor evidently doesn't believe it or doesn't follow it, so he smears B as "speaking for God" when B cites it as a scriptural reason for not having instrumental music. Racnor would have God list every conceivable "Thou shalt not" for every possible issue before Racnor would refrain from implementing something. That is, Racnor would demand that God say, "Thou shalt not have instrumental music" before he would ever dream of putting instruments away.

God need not explicitly mention an item or practice by name for it to be forbidden, because the neither-add-to-nor-take-from command covers that. When God explictly issues a directive and specifies what is to be done therein, we do not have the liberty to add to or take from that directive. Since God specifies vocal music, then we are not at liberty to add other kinds of music, such as instrumental music.

That's simply the way things are, but Racnor has the "freedom of choice" to defy God's explicit directive.
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B
B

September 1st, 2012, 6:22 pm #70

It is evidently Racnor's numb conscience that prompts him to fail to recognize the neither-add-to-nor-take-from command.
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