Racnor
Racnor

August 24th, 2012, 9:16 pm #51

It's already been advertised that Madison's instrumental music campaign has begun with the kids. You could say that was a FACT.

If change agents report that FACT, it is lauded as newsworthy; if CM reports that FACT, it is condemned as "gossip and sin."

DOUBLE STANDARD


Just a little fun with "boiling the frog". Watch ALL of the video.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyBKz1wdK0M
Quote
Share

Racnor
Racnor

August 25th, 2012, 1:12 pm #52

No doubt the Pharisees and Sadducees in Jesus' day would have branded Jesus a "gossip" when He said of them:

"Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees" (Matt. 16:6b KJV). Jesus was warning His disciples to beware the false doctrines of the Sadducees and Pharisees. He was doing what He later had Paul write in Romans 16:17--to MARK and AVOID them. Likewise, to emulate Jesus, we here at CM warn others to MARK and AVOID the change agents who teach doctrines that are not found in the New Testament.
Matthew 23

New International Version (NIV)


A Warning Against Hypocrisy

23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other peoples shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

5 Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries[a] wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called Rabbi by others.

8 But you are not to be called Rabbi, for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth father, for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. 11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.



Quote
Share

Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

August 25th, 2012, 6:28 pm #53

[color=#0000FF" size="4]A great message for the CHANGE AGENTS who busily and constantly provide new and "innovative" [HA-HA] solutions for the church that Christ established. Instead, they're dividing and corrupting the church, the bride of Christ.

Why cannot change agents found their own church FROM SCRATCH and leave Christ's church ALONE?
[/color]
Quote
Like
Share

B
B

August 25th, 2012, 6:49 pm #54

Matthew 23

New International Version (NIV)


A Warning Against Hypocrisy

23 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other peoples shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

5 Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries[a] wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called Rabbi by others.

8 But you are not to be called Rabbi, for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth father, for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. 11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.



Yes, the Pharisees and other Jewish leaders of Jesus' day would have branded Him a "gossip" because Jesus warned of their unscriptural "leaven," whether it was hypocrisy or anything else in the wrong. Again, we at CM emulate Jesus and warn others against the unscriptural "leaven" of the change agents. When we mark and avoid the change agents, they erroneously call that "gossip"; we call that doing exactly what the New Testament tells us to do.
Quote
Share

Joined: June 28th, 2012, 11:38 am

August 27th, 2012, 11:56 pm #55

Donnie asked..."Why are you afraid to identify yourself?"

Can we talk about B?

Can you say double standard?

THIS IS NOT CONDUCIVE TO LEARNING GOD'S TRUTH.


=======================
Dave,

"B" [is not necessarily a good ID, but it] ... is as acceptable as "D" for Dave, e.g., and it is better than "Anonymous." No, there is no "double standard."

"Gossip is sin" [or "St. Louis Cardinals" that you tried to use] is not a personal identity -- it is a topic. On the other hand, "MCC-Torn" is not a topic -- it is a VERY personal and sincere identity of a member at Madison, the author of this thread.

TO OTHERS: Please do not respond to this obstruction and diversion. THIS IS NOT CONDUCIVE TO LEARNING GOD'S TRUTH.
I did not come here because I enjoy fussing and fighting or taking sides with other church members. This is pretty much a last gasp at communicating with someone or anyone who still cares about the ruining of a once great congregation.

I have spoken with several elders and church leaders about a lot of the recent changes. They just shrug it off. Others who tried to talk about concerns say the same thing. I don't think they care about people who are genuinely hurting for the congregation they love. We are expendable.

In the vision they said that they were not going to let "tradition" get in the way of bringing in new souls. But what about the thousands of souls who have left the church because of their break with "tradition"? Didn't Madison used to pack the auditorium for 2 services every Sunday? Didn't Madison used to be the biggest congregation in the church?

Who are these people they are trying to reach anyway? How many people are sitting around out there saying "I wish there was a church with an identity crisis that disrespects its heritage and confuses its children with inexplicable mixed messages and is willing to run off over half its members who have supported it with blood sweat and tears for decades out there that we could join."

Are there enough of these bizarre people out there to quadruple the current membership? That's about what it would take to come close to replacing all the good people they have run off already. I think they will be lucky to find a dozen in the first couple of years who want to wade into the mess they have made.

It is heartbreaking that the elders hope those of us who love the church and our formerly great congregation will just go away. It is sobering to think of the divine accountability that is heaping upon their shoulders for the departure of these souls they were responsible for shepherding. I don't know if I could sleep at night.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

August 28th, 2012, 12:43 am #56

In the vision they said that they were not going to let "tradition" get in the way of bringing in new souls. But what about the thousands of souls who have left the church because of their break with "tradition"? Didn't Madison used to pack the auditorium for 2 services every Sunday? Didn't Madison used to be the biggest congregation in the church?

Of course, when they say that, they mean that NOT using instruments as "Just our Tradition." That's what Steve Flat also said. When they say that they are liars at worst or delusional at best. I think you have it right when you say that the elders probably just don't care for lost sheep and worship their presumed STATUS. Elders are made by their OWN Spirit. An elder must already be working to the point of exhaustion in preaching and teaching. They have let the NOT-commanded and NOT-funded preacher usurp their authority. Buck doesn't need anyone to agree.

You have to be Biblically Illiterate not to know that a major theme from the garden of Eden onward is that Lucifer (Zoe) "the singing and harp-playing prostitute in the garden of Eden" came EQUIPPED with Wind, String and percussions instruments when he/she was CAST AS PROFANE out of heaven: Chalal means blow the flute, pollute or prostitute. It is the word which defines those who first began to CALL themselves Jehovah. (Enosh)

The last warning is in Revelation 17 where the Babylon Mother of harlots arises and in Revelation 18 uses the "lusted after fruits" (same as in Amos) as rhetoricians, singers and instrument players: John called them SORCERERS who HAD deceived the whole world. He also said that these dogs or sorcerers will be 'Cast alive into the Lake of Fire."

You have as witness that none of the Bible and the "singing" was never tuneful. You also have as witness all of the church fathers who repudiate instruments in church. You have all of the founders of denominations saying that to call our practice "our tradition" or "our heratige" are just trying to let the WOLVES in: that's what Paul prophesied and it isn't pretty.

We had to wait for the Disciples / Christian Churches in 1878 to even think that the PSALLO word has any instrumental content.

Paul warned about the elders in 1 Corinthians 13:

La^l-e ,Mark of the Locusts
II. chatter, Opposite. articulate speech, as of locusts, chirp, Theoc.5.34; mesmbrias lalein tettix (sc. eimi), a very grasshopper to chirp at midday,
III. of musical sounds, aul [flute] lale Theoc.20.29; of trees, v.supr.1.2; di'aulou [flute] salpiggos l.[trumpet] Arist. Aud.801a29; of Echo, magadin lalein sound the magadis, [double flute]

Emba^t-eu , A. step in or on, frequent, haunt: c. acc., of tutelary god
philokhoros Pan embateuei A.Pers.449, cf. E.El.595
hina Dionusos embateuei S.OC679
IV. To be initiated into the mysteries, Jahresh.15.46 (Notium), cf. Ep.Col.2.18.
ho -eun t khri daimn D.H.1.77:


When elders and preachers are so treacherous, people will catch on and not be foolish enough to trust the "Lord's money" with such people. They REPLACEMENT flock will be butterflies and will flit to the next famouse "venue for Rock and Roll."


Quote
Like
Share

Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

August 28th, 2012, 11:13 pm #57

People who lie that IT IS NOT A SALVATION ISSUE do not understand that God said that He Hated those who took instruments into the holy place and caused God to sentence them to Assyrian Captivity with no redemption possible and He said I WILL NOT PASS BY AGAIN. For a short period the SONGS in the Temple became HOWLING which defines the effeminate Praise Singing." This persona of Vileness causes Godly people to flee Babylon.

Another thing God hates is those WHO SOW DISCORD among brethren. The Purpose Driven Cult intends to "infiltrate and divert" and this was confessed by Tom Haddon who had a slipped lip to early. The CULT believes that they can LOOSE half of the owners and RECOVER their "evangelism" by sucking in Seekers (a Term coined by Adolph Hitler to fool the Human Fodder to lose their place.

To say that is a CONSERVATIVE or TRADITIONALISTS or LEGALISTIC Church of Christ heritage is to prove that they are NOT APT to teach the Word as it HAS BEEN TAUGHT or they are truly infiltrating and diverting as a hostile takeover because they have a LUST FOR POWER. I believe that evil is bound up in one man.

Psalm has the same meaning as a Song: both
Can be read
Can be recited
Can be sung
Can be sung to an aaccompaniment:

The first instrument of choice is the harp of God: the human voice
Or it can be accompanied with other instruments.

However, neither in Hebrew nor English are psalms metrical meaning that they can be chanted in a measured or tuneful sense.

There no true psalms which are sung TO a harp unless that instrument is named.

Why we know that NO ONE ever sang any Biblical text including the Psalms.

Modern exegetes do not agree in this matter. For a time many would admit no metre at all in the Psalms. Davison (Hast., "Dict. of the Bible", s. v.) writes: "
<font color="#FFFFFF">.....
though metre is NOT discernible in the Psalms,
.....it does not follow that rhythm is excluded".

This rhythm, however, "defies analysis and systematization". Driver ("Introd. to Lit. of O. T.", New York, 1892, 339) admits in Hebrew poetry
....."no metre in the strict sense of the term".
.....Exegetes who find metre in the Psalms are of four schools,
.....according as they explain Hebrew metre by quantity, by the number of syllables,
.....by accent, or by both quantity and accent. (from The Catholic Encyclopedia)


ONLY THE PSALMS WERE CHANTED:

Up to the Edict of Milan (AD 313), the psalms were interspersed with lessons.

By the time of Gregory I (circa 600), the Mass and Office had assumed a fixed shape and antiphonal psalmody (the chanting of a psalm alternately by two choirs) and responsorial psalmody (when the congregation responded to a psalm sung by a cantor) were institutionalized.The distinction between these types later faded.

A Cantor is a Chanter: The Jews cantillated which is Paul's SPEAK. Both singing AND melody (or grace) was IN THE HEART to specificially exclude the external meaning of Psallo which is a warfare word.

You could not sing TUNEFULLY nor could you accompany ANY of "that which is written for our LEARNING" (Rom 15 which defines the assembly inclusively and exclusively.)

In the 16th century, Protestant churches encouraged congregational psalm singing by adopting metrical versions in the vernacular. An important early translation was Clèment Marot's, the basis of the Calvinist psalter. A repertory of tunes came into being; these were set in a simple chordal style in collections which included Loys Bourgeois's complete psalter (1563), widely recognized as a standard version. Some later settings were more contrapuntal; Le Jeune and others dropped the tunes and composed what amounted to free motets.

That's MUCH too early to be one of the SINS of the ANTI-instrumental Church of Christ. </font>
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

August 30th, 2012, 9:45 pm #58

Original Message <font face="times" size="3">(June 11 2012 at 3:32 AM):</font>

<table width="725" border="0"><tr><td valign="top" width="98%">
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="98%"><tr><td width="98%" bgcolor="#ffffff">

<table border="0" width="98%" align="center"><tr><td>
[color=#000000" size="5" face="times]Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision"[/color]
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Last month the elders announced Madison's new "vision" that approves the use of instrumental music. If someone wrote about this I didn't see it.

They said that using instruments is not a "salvation issue". Both services will use acappella music for now, but the first service will now get a praise team like the second service. And the second service will have more creative worship.

But the youth group gets to start using instrumental music. They said light acoustical instruments.

This seems like a huge change so I was surprised not to see it here yet.


[/color]</td></tr></table></td></tr></table></td></tr></table>

_________________________

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]NOTE:The information above has been submitted anonymously. Meanwhile, we have opted to substitute "Concerned" for "Anonymous" as the name. The message remains unedited.
-----------------------[/color]
[color=#000000" size="3" face="times]We've heard from the author who is a long-time member of Madison and would like to be identified as "MCC-Torn" [... and appropriately so].[/color]
=================================================



=================================================
[color=#0000FF" size="5" face="times]Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision": Cymbals, Psalteries, Harps ANATHEMA
By Ken Sublett[/color]



Heritage Church of Christ following the ACU pattern has imposed what he calls instrumental music.

http://www.piney.com/Heritage.Church.of ... Music.html

Jim Hackney led by the NACC at ACU gives his "proof texts" all of which are lies because he does not know the context.

http://www.piney.com/Jim.Hackney.Instru ... rship.html

The expression "having cymbals and psalteries and harps" is not a pattern for Christian worship: it is defined as the worship of Apollo (abaddon, Apollyon) and Dionysus first outed at Mount Sinai. If God turned them over to worship the starry host, and scholars agree that the Jews worshipped the starry host on their way back to Babylon, why do you suppose that latter day elders fulfil the warning of Paul against wolves and violently impose the same patternism: Who knows? both the Shadow and any Bible student knows.

http://www.piney.com/Having.Cymbals.and ... s.and.html
We have posted an e-mail from a lady attending The Tulsa Workshop. The ACappella (goat singer) totally embarassed her. The Musical Worship Minister gets a lot of press even among instrumental churches which MARKS them as the rise of the PAGAN THESIS against whom Jesus spoke His ANTI thesis.

Lk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:



Tatian to the Greeks: Religious Hypocrites, Demons

http://www.piney.com/Tatian.to.the.Gree ... 254_353817

Chapter XXII.-Ridicule of the Solemnities of the Greeks.


<font color="#0000FF">And of what sort are your teachings? Who must not treat with contempt your solemn festivals, which, being held in honour of wicked demons, cover men with infamy?

I have often seen a man

and have been amazed to see, and the amazement has ended in contempt, to think how he is one thing internally,
but outwardly counterfeits what he is not-giving himself excessive airs of daintiness
and indulging in all sorts of effeminacy;
sometimes darting his eyes about;
sometimes throwing his hands hither and thither,

and raving with his face smeared with mud; sometimes personating Aphrodité, sometimes Apollo; a solitary accuser of all the gods, an epitome of superstition, a vituperator of heroic deeds, an actor of murders, a chronicler of adultery, a storehouse of madness, a teacher of cynaedi, an instigator of capital sentences;-
and yet such a man is praised by all.

But I have rejected all his falsehoods, his impiety, his practices,-in short, the man altogether.

But you are led captive by such men, while you revile those who do not take a part in your pursuits.
I have no mind to stand agape at a number of singers,
nor do I desire to be affected in sympathy with a man when he is winking and gesticulating in an unnatural manner.


What wonderful or extraordinary thing is performed among you? They utter ribaldry in affected tones, and go through indecent movements; your daughters and your sons behold them giving lessons in adultery on the stage. Admirable places, forsooth, are your lecture-rooms, where every base action perpetrated by night is proclaimed aloud, and the hearers are regaled with the utterance of infamous discourses!

Admirable, too, are your mendacious poets, who by their fictions beguile their hearers from the truth!


WHAT'S THE POINT? The point is that anyone who says that not using performing artist as "worship leaders" IS OUR OLD TRADITION is guilty of lying to God, About God and to the FLEECEES.</font>
Last edited by Ken.Sublett on August 30th, 2012, 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Quote
Like
Share

Racnor
Racnor

August 30th, 2012, 10:54 pm #59

Ken, harmony is akin to IM because neither were authorized. Right?
Quote
Share

Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

August 31st, 2012, 1:57 am #60

The female authority at GCM refutes a comment that there was no HARMONY in the Bible. In fact, harmony was not natural and not known until rich patrons imposed simple pipe organs in Cathedrals located at the sites of FAIR TOWNS: that money thingy? Only then did professional composers and Monks discovered that they had tgen fingers and accidentially discovered harmony: that is mixing a few MOUTHS and producing DOZENS of extra voices.

harmonia , hê, ( [harmozô] ) union of two bones by mere apposition,
IV. in Music, stringing,ha. toxou kail uras Heraclit.51 , cf. Pl.Smp.187a: hence, method of stringing, musical scale,
2. generally, music, autôi de tôi rhuthmôi mimountai
sunôidos (also suna^oidos E.HF787 (lyr.)), on, ( [ôidê] )
A. singing or sounding in unison with, echoing or responsive to,


Harmony was most often two voices in unison. if loud congregational singing it is anything by HARMONY: four voices singing four sets of words at four different times to four different tunes.

For harmony is a symphony, and symphony is an agreement; but an agreement of disagreements while they disagree there cannot be; you cannot harmonize that which disagrees. In like manner rhythm is compounded of elements short and long, once differing and now in accord; which accordance, as in the former instance, medicine, so in all these other cases, music implants, making love and unison to grow up among them; and thus music, too, is concerned with the principles of love in their application to harmony and rhythm.

Melody does not mean harmony: melody as tunefulness belongs to the 19th century says many sources. Even now, much of eastern music knows no tunefulness which, we are told, forces you to give attention to performance and not the words.

Maybe you can get by with anything but failing to let scripture speak for itself.
Last edited by Ken.Sublett on August 31st, 2012, 2:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
Quote
Like
Share