Madison's New (Instrumental) 'Vision'

William
William

June 14th, 2012, 7:38 am #11

It is interesting to see how the permissives (no, not progressives) have chosen to return to the controversies of the dark ages regarding adding pagan practices to Christian worship with almost the same dark ages arguments. The moderators of this blog site have a point in questioning where will you ever see it necessary to draw a line; after praise teams - choirs; for choirs - robes for choir and preacher; after that interpretive dance; etc. Since congregational autonomy is not being questioned, and what we know as Churches of Christ (capital "C") is merely a loose fellowship of like minded believers, you are welcome to the name for there is no patent on it. But for clarity perhaps you will consider appending the eponym with a parenthesis, such as Church of Christ (believing less every day).
Quote
Share

Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

June 14th, 2012, 7:52 am #12

Mr. Cruz,
in your post on 13 June at 3:27 your conclusion stated "Once, the brotherhood knows about what Madison is doing to achieve its goal of increased membership by whatever means, I wonder if certain churches or elders of other congregations will be inquiring or writing to Madison's leaders about this "endeavor." I know, I know about congregational autonomy. But this is not an "autonomy" issue. This is a New Testament church issue!!!"

You're right....so right. It isn't about congregational autonomy....it's about following Jesus and you not going about like an old lady craving her gossip. You are acting the opposite of what Jesus showed us to do and be. You and all the rest here slander any brother or sister that doesn't agree to your ideology. I mentioned "your ideology" for it certainly isn't that of God. You slander the elders of the congregation where you attend. I would put your gossip levels against those of anyone. Do you not care where your soul is eventually going?

As the great John Watson Smith spoke of......comments welcome
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Anon [let's not confuse you with the original poster "B"], please identify yourself differently. You address me as "Mr. Cruz"; how may I address you?

I said: [1] "a New Testament church issue." You want me to say that [2] "it's about following Jesus." It appears that you're incapable of noting the difference. Let me help you:

(1) A "NT Testament church issue" simply means that our concern should be about the impact of one congregation within the fellowship or brotherhood, when said congregation begins to adhere to some NEW or NEWLY ACQUIRED teaching foreign to the New Testament, in order to achieve the goal of increased membership at any cost. [I can explain this further and in more detail, if you're interested.]

(2) That "it's about following Jesus" is fine. Why not? But this has nothing to do with our subject of discussion here -- concerning a church with a pre-existing anomaly called "division" that is about to complicate the same anomaly, now called "further division." What you speak of, "it's about following Jesus," is really about an individual Christian's responsibility. Can you initiate a thread by that title or subject?

The excuses to deviate from the topic being discussed, such as: (1) "it's about following Jesus"; (2) "you do not have Christian love"; and "you slander" ... are pretty mild compared to the change agents' despicable motto: "it is not a salvation issue."

Anon, "freedom of speech" is still practiced in this country, and you know it. Just wait when The Christian Chronicle finds out about the new Madison plan to keep the youth and increase its membership with instrumental music, and then reports it or gossips [your impression--and I like it better] about it.

Anon, I did not initiate the report: Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision" -- someone else did it. Besides, it is not a gossip as it was announced to the congregation.[/color]
Quote
Like
Share

Anonymous
Anonymous

June 14th, 2012, 8:09 am #13

Unfortunately, you are still defying your elders if you are a member of Madison. "Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy that person. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple." - 1 Cor. 3:16-18, Paul, speaking of the church.
Quote
Share

Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

June 14th, 2012, 8:26 am #14

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Defying the elders?

What about the elders defying God's authority? Did you know that the elders are to teach that which they've been taught [instead of teachings acquired from churches founded by men (and women)]? (I Tim. 3:2; II Tim. 2:24)

Did you read about division in the eldership itself in 2001? Please read the Timeline threads.

What about the passage you quoted applying to all Christians including you ... and me ... and the elders?[/color]
Quote
Like
Share

B
B

June 14th, 2012, 12:25 pm #15

If the elders decide to implement instrumental music, the change agents jump on that and insist that we "must not defy the elders." The change agents, thinking that elders are infallible, abuse the New Testament's admonition and would have everyone blindly follow elders who have chosen to defy the New Testament by adding more to what is written in the command to sing and make melody in the heart.

Christians should NOT obey rogue elders.
Quote
Share

Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

June 14th, 2012, 12:37 pm #16

Original Message <font face="times" size="3">(June 11 2012 at 3:32 AM):</font>

<table width="725" border="0"><tr><td valign="top" width="98%">
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="98%"><tr><td width="98%" bgcolor="#ffffff">

<table border="0" width="98%" align="center"><tr><td>
[color=#000000" size="5" face="times]Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision"[/color]
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Last month the elders announced Madison's new "vision" that approves the use of instrumental music. If someone wrote about this I didn't see it.

They said that using instruments is not a "salvation issue". Both services will use acappella music for now, but the first service will now get a praise team like the second service. And the second service will have more creative worship.

But the youth group gets to start using instrumental music. They said light acoustical instruments.

This seems like a huge change so I was surprised not to see it here yet.


[/color]</td></tr></table></td></tr></table></td></tr></table>

_________________________

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]NOTE:The information above has been submitted anonymously. Meanwhile, we have opted to substitute "Concerned" for "Anonymous" as the name. The message remains unedited.
-----------------------[/color]
[color=#000000" size="3" face="times]We've heard from the author who is a long-time member of Madison and would like to be identified as "MCC-Torn" [... and appropriately so].[/color]
=================================================



=================================================
[color=#0000FF" size="5" face="times]Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision": Cymbals, Psalteries, Harps ANATHEMA
By Ken Sublett[/color]



Heritage Church of Christ following the ACU pattern has imposed what he calls instrumental music.

http://www.piney.com/Heritage.Church.of.Christ.Instrumental.Music.html

Jim Hackney led by the NACC at ACU gives his "proof texts" all of which are lies because he does not know the context.

http://www.piney.com/Jim.Hackney.Instrumental.Music.in.Worship.html

The expression "having cymbals and psalteries and harps" is not a pattern for Christian worship: it is defined as the worship of Apollo (abaddon, Apollyon) and Dionysus first outed at Mount Sinai. If God turned them over to worship the starry host, and scholars agree that the Jews worshipped the starry host on their way back to Babylon, why do you suppose that latter day elders fulfil the warning of Paul against wolves and violently impose the same patternism: Who knows? both the Shadow and any Bible student knows.

http://www.piney.com/Having.Cymbals.and.Psalteries.and.html


1Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Corinthians 3:13 Every mans work shall be made manifest:
..... for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire;
.....and the fire shall try every mans work of what sort it is.
1Corinthians 3:14 If any mans work abide which he hath built thereupon,
.....he shall receive a reward.
1Corinthians 3:15 If any mans work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss:
.....but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
1Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God,
.....and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy;
.....for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
1Corinthians 3:18 Let no man deceive himself.
.....If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world,
.....let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
1Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God.
.....For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
1Corinthians 3:20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
1Corinthians 3:21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;

Sophia , Ion. -i, h, prop. A cleverness or skill in handicraft and art
in music and singing, in divination

True Sophia is the 'Spirit OF God.'

God HID Himself from the Sophist and Jesus WILL NOT PRAY for the Kosmos or World system
Last edited by Donnie.Cruz on November 19th, 2014, 6:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
Quote
Like
Share

B
B

June 14th, 2012, 12:38 pm #17

Mr. Cruz,
in your post on 13 June at 3:27 your conclusion stated "Once, the brotherhood knows about what Madison is doing to achieve its goal of increased membership by whatever means, I wonder if certain churches or elders of other congregations will be inquiring or writing to Madison's leaders about this "endeavor." I know, I know about congregational autonomy. But this is not an "autonomy" issue. This is a New Testament church issue!!!"

You're right....so right. It isn't about congregational autonomy....it's about following Jesus and you not going about like an old lady craving her gossip. You are acting the opposite of what Jesus showed us to do and be. You and all the rest here slander any brother or sister that doesn't agree to your ideology. I mentioned "your ideology" for it certainly isn't that of God. You slander the elders of the congregation where you attend. I would put your gossip levels against those of anyone. Do you not care where your soul is eventually going?

As the great John Watson Smith spoke of......comments welcome
I think discerning readers can differentiate between the real "B" and an obvious impostor.
Quote
Share

Joined: January 28th, 2012, 10:19 pm

June 14th, 2012, 8:24 pm #18



1Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Corinthians 3:13 Every mans work shall be made manifest:
..... for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire;
.....and the fire shall try every mans work of what sort it is.
1Corinthians 3:14 If any mans work abide which he hath built thereupon,
.....he shall receive a reward.
1Corinthians 3:15 If any mans work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss:
.....but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
1Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God,
.....and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Corinthians 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy;
.....for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
1Corinthians 3:18 Let no man deceive himself.
.....If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world,
.....let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
1Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God.
.....For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.
1Corinthians 3:20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
1Corinthians 3:21 Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;

Sophia , Ion. -i, h, prop. A cleverness or skill in handicraft and art
in music and singing, in divination

True Sophia is the 'Spirit OF God.'

God HID Himself from the Sophist and Jesus WILL NOT PRAY for the Kosmos or World system
Consider the words of the preacher in Ecclesiastes 1 and 2. Church leaders who think problems of the world should take priority over spiritual warfare should consider the evaluation of all the works under the sun - "what is crooked cannot be made straight and what is lacking cannot be numbered" . I submit to you that we should stay on course. Its a spiritual war. We are to love God with all our being and not be inordinate lovers of own selves as mankind does so often. Instrumental music adds nothing to a worship other than demonstrating mans stubborn will.

Again in Ecclesiastes 2 the preacher states that wisdom excels folly as light excels darkness. Those who want sights and sounds of denominational proceedings are pandering to human desire. I assert they are walking in darkness and will continue to digress and err further and further. Someone said what they were really doing is worshiping the talents of men and women. I suggest that worship of almighty God is not a showcase for a few but a submission of will by all and our thanks to him. Proverbs 1 says the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom not the fawning over the talented.


Comments Welcome
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

June 14th, 2012, 9:19 pm #19

It is interesting to see how the permissives (no, not progressives) have chosen to return to the controversies of the dark ages regarding adding pagan practices to Christian worship with almost the same dark ages arguments. The moderators of this blog site have a point in questioning where will you ever see it necessary to draw a line; after praise teams - choirs; for choirs - robes for choir and preacher; after that interpretive dance; etc. Since congregational autonomy is not being questioned, and what we know as Churches of Christ (capital "C") is merely a loose fellowship of like minded believers, you are welcome to the name for there is no patent on it. But for clarity perhaps you will consider appending the eponym with a parenthesis, such as Church of Christ (believing less every day).
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]William,

"Eponym" in parentheses -- that's exactly what change agents should be honestly doing as/when they misrepresent, discredit and badmouth the church of Christ of which they still claim to be members of.

Jay Guin, e.g., a change agent who happens to be an elder of the University Church of Christ in Tuscaloosa, AL and who wants to alter much of the NT-based beliefs and teachings in the church of Christ -- has he considered founding his own church from scratch? He could relocate and name his church with the eponym appended: "Church of Christ (Community Church-Transformed)." That would clarify "change" matters and issues, wouldn't it? But, of course, we do not know how many of the other elders of the University agree with Jay Guin's church-doctrine-modification initiatives.

I can think of another example of the use of the eponym -- this time it's about the Community Church in Hendersonville, TN. I wrote about this a few years ago. I'll repost the message as soon as a find it.[/color]
Quote
Like
Share

B
B

June 17th, 2012, 1:28 pm #20

Original Message <font face="times" size="3">(June 11 2012 at 3:32 AM):</font>

<table width="725" border="0"><tr><td valign="top" width="98%">
<table border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="98%"><tr><td width="98%" bgcolor="#ffffff">

<table border="0" width="98%" align="center"><tr><td>
[color=#000000" size="5" face="times]Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision"[/color]
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Last month the elders announced Madison's new "vision" that approves the use of instrumental music. If someone wrote about this I didn't see it.

They said that using instruments is not a "salvation issue". Both services will use acappella music for now, but the first service will now get a praise team like the second service. And the second service will have more creative worship.

But the youth group gets to start using instrumental music. They said light acoustical instruments.

This seems like a huge change so I was surprised not to see it here yet.


[/color]</td></tr></table></td></tr></table></td></tr></table>

_________________________

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]NOTE:The information above has been submitted anonymously. Meanwhile, we have opted to substitute "Concerned" for "Anonymous" as the name. The message remains unedited.
-----------------------[/color]
[color=#000000" size="3" face="times]We've heard from the author who is a long-time member of Madison and would like to be identified as "MCC-Torn" [... and appropriately so].[/color]
=================================================



=================================================
[color=#0000FF" size="5" face="times]Madison's New (Instrumental) "Vision": Cymbals, Psalteries, Harps ANATHEMA
By Ken Sublett[/color]



Heritage Church of Christ following the ACU pattern has imposed what he calls instrumental music.

http://www.piney.com/Heritage.Church.of ... Music.html

Jim Hackney led by the NACC at ACU gives his "proof texts" all of which are lies because he does not know the context.

http://www.piney.com/Jim.Hackney.Instru ... rship.html

The expression "having cymbals and psalteries and harps" is not a pattern for Christian worship: it is defined as the worship of Apollo (abaddon, Apollyon) and Dionysus first outed at Mount Sinai. If God turned them over to worship the starry host, and scholars agree that the Jews worshipped the starry host on their way back to Babylon, why do you suppose that latter day elders fulfil the warning of Paul against wolves and violently impose the same patternism: Who knows? both the Shadow and any Bible student knows.

http://www.piney.com/Having.Cymbals.and ... s.and.html
"I think discerning readers can differentiate between the real "B" and an obvious impostor."

Who is B anyways? No name....therefore no idea to who I am. I must be ashamed of who I am. My real name has to be kept secret because something must have been done in the past to set off a sequence of events to protect my identity.
I am only and merely....just B. Therefore I am who I am.
Quote
Share