Lack of Perspective or Lack of Faith?

Lack of Perspective or Lack of Faith?

Joined: February 16th, 2012, 8:07 pm

May 2nd, 2012, 8:46 pm #1

As I was scrolling down the landing page, I noticed a question "Is the church headed for apostasy?" Initially I blew it off as a loaded question but after I thought about it, I decided "No, it isn't." Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail against it and who am I to doubt Him? Regardless of how it is delivered, the message remains the same.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

May 3rd, 2012, 5:53 am #2

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Brian,

The topic "Lack of Perspective or Lack of Faith" sounds appealing, but what's your premise? Lacking ... on whose part?

Is the church headed for apostasy? That's a challenging but a fair question. [Brian, in case you now prefer this to be the title, let me know and I'll change it.]

Here's the narrative pertaining to the church:[/color]

<ol>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Jesus said to Peter, "... upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it," (Matt. 16:18).[/color]
</li>[*]I[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]n the following verse, it says: "And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven...."[/color]
</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Then in the following verse 28 (and in Mark 9:1 as well), it says: "And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power."[/color]
</li>[*]I[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]n Acts 1 and 2, we find the kingdom come with power ...[/color]

</li>[/list][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Questions: Are the words "church" and "kingdom" synonymous or used interchangeably? Do you believe that they are? Why do agents of the Change Movement do not believe and do not teach this New Testament pattern of the church anymore?[/color]
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Joined: February 16th, 2012, 8:07 pm

May 3rd, 2012, 7:55 am #3

Thanks, Donnie, the title is fine as is.

As to your questions, let me start with your premise. Granted, there are a lot of like-minded and very prominant individuals advocating for changes in the way the church of Christ does things, but I'm still undecided as to whether or not it is an organized effort with a formal structure. Even then, there is no reason to fear it. You can acknowledge its existence without being afraid (2 Tim. 1:7)
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

May 3rd, 2012, 8:14 am #4

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Brian,

I do not understand why suddenly you'd bring up "reason to fear." Any "reason to fear" is neither a factor nor an issue with me.

There are questions related to your initial message:

-- A lack of perspective on the part of whom or which group?
-- A lack of faith on the part of whom or which group?
-- An organized effort by whom or which group?

I like the expression "a formal structure" or "a structure." It is parallel to a design or a pattern. From the church's standpoint or the individual Christian's, the pattern or structure must be God-approved or New Testament-based.[/color]
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Joined: February 16th, 2012, 8:07 pm

May 3rd, 2012, 5:32 pm #5

Regarding a lack of perspective - I take statements like "The church is heading for apostasy" with a large grain of salt. That is too broad a statement. God won't allow that to happen. Remember Elijah complaining to God that he was the only one left to worship Him? God essentially told Elijah not to think so much of himself because there were plenty of others. Elijah's problem was discouragement and consequently his focus became too narrow. He lacked perspective on the issue.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

May 3rd, 2012, 6:07 pm #6

The REMNANT will be very tiny: if God reserved 7,000 who had not bowed to Baal out of several millions, only a FEW (almost none) will be chosen meaning testing as by fire.

Here is one of the many reasons why to KNOW a crucified Savior is to go OUTSIDE of the massed multitutes and suffer reproaches. The MARK of a beast is that a preacher is applauded and pretty rich. Nothing fills his coffers better than music that HYPNOTIC drug. Shelly etal even BOAST about creating a GROUP MENTALITY.

Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate:
<font color="#FFFFFF">....
for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction,
....and many there be which go in thereat:

Lk 13:20 And again he said,
....Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God?

Lk 13:21 It is like leaven,
....which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal,
....till the whole was leavened.

Lk 13:22 And he went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem.

Luke 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord,
....are there few that be saved?
....And he said unto them,
Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate:
....for many [almost all], I say unto you,
....will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
Luke 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up,
....and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without,
....and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us;
....and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

Luke 13:26 Then shall ye begin to say,
....We have eaten and drunk in thy presence,
....and thou hast taught in our streets.
Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you,
....I know you not whence ye are;
....depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth,
....when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets,
i....n the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
</font>
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Joined: February 16th, 2012, 8:07 pm

May 3rd, 2012, 11:59 pm #7

Raise your hand and wait till you're called on, Ken.
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Joined: January 28th, 2012, 10:19 pm

May 4th, 2012, 1:40 am #8

The REMNANT will be very tiny: if God reserved 7,000 who had not bowed to Baal out of several millions, only a FEW (almost none) will be chosen meaning testing as by fire.

Here is one of the many reasons why to KNOW a crucified Savior is to go OUTSIDE of the massed multitutes and suffer reproaches. The MARK of a beast is that a preacher is applauded and pretty rich. Nothing fills his coffers better than music that HYPNOTIC drug. Shelly etal even BOAST about creating a GROUP MENTALITY.

Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate:
<font color="#FFFFFF">....
for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction,
....and many there be which go in thereat:

Lk 13:20 And again he said,
....Whereunto shall I liken the kingdom of God?

Lk 13:21 It is like leaven,
....which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal,
....till the whole was leavened.

Lk 13:22 And he went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem.

Luke 13:23 Then said one unto him, Lord,
....are there few that be saved?
....And he said unto them,
Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate:
....for many [almost all], I say unto you,
....will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
Luke 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up,
....and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without,
....and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us;
....and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

Luke 13:26 Then shall ye begin to say,
....We have eaten and drunk in thy presence,
....and thou hast taught in our streets.
Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you,
....I know you not whence ye are;
....depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth,
....when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets,
i....n the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
</font>
Consider the teaching of John 15 that Jesus will remove the branches that are not producing fruit.

Consider the teaching in Revelation that churches need to repent and be zealous otherwise Jesus will come and take away that congregations "lampstand"

Consider the old testament record of the children of Israel how many times they were punished for straying from the law -word of God

I conclude that God continually tests and purges lax and nonproductive individuals and congregations. Hence the scripture indicates that not whom man approves but whom God approves will be saved. I suggest this is perfect harmony with the teaching that God has chosen the honest and faithful as heirs of salvation and his word will not return to him void, but accomplishing what it was sent to do.

I conclude that God nowhere promises to save unconditionally everyone even though they have a vocabulary and appearance that are "religious" . Individuals and congregations must be faithful as God defines what is faithful.

Comments welcome
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

May 4th, 2012, 6:53 am #9

Raise your hand and wait till you're called on, Ken.
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Brian,

Did you not hear Ken say, "I approve this message"? [And Ken is not running for president. ] Yes, it was Ken who approved your message, although it was uncalled-for.

Ken quoted passages from Scripture, and they made references to "the remnant" ... destruction ... the kingdom ... the saved -- all relevant to your topic being discussed now[/color]
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

May 4th, 2012, 5:24 pm #10

Consider the teaching of John 15 that Jesus will remove the branches that are not producing fruit.

Consider the teaching in Revelation that churches need to repent and be zealous otherwise Jesus will come and take away that congregations "lampstand"

Consider the old testament record of the children of Israel how many times they were punished for straying from the law -word of God

I conclude that God continually tests and purges lax and nonproductive individuals and congregations. Hence the scripture indicates that not whom man approves but whom God approves will be saved. I suggest this is perfect harmony with the teaching that God has chosen the honest and faithful as heirs of salvation and his word will not return to him void, but accomplishing what it was sent to do.

I conclude that God nowhere promises to save unconditionally everyone even though they have a vocabulary and appearance that are "religious" . Individuals and congregations must be faithful as God defines what is faithful.

Comments welcome
Beginning with Genesis the "pattern" is that there is an ongoing "pruning" or removing rather than gathering everyone.

1Corinthians 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you,
.....that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

Galatians 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

2Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people,
.....even as there shall be false teachers among you,
.....who privily shall bring in damnable heresies,
.....even denying the Lord that bought them,
.....and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2Peter 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways;
.....by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
2 Peter 2:13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness,
.....as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time.
.....Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves
.....with their own deceivings [delusions] while they feast with you;
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