Ken Sublett

Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

February 11th, 2012, 6:19 pm #11

Greg, Ken is not a trained Bible scholar interested in truth nor is he willing to admit when he is wrong, as he often is. His motivation is not to teach truth but to win arguments and he will do so by any means necessary, including attacking and condemning anyone who dares disagree with him. He also will fabricate lies and claim they are from the Bible, for example, teaching that the Israelites were condemned for musical idolatry (whatever that means) at Mt Sinai, when the relevant passage in Exodus 32 says nothing of the kind.
You would do well to ignore Ken's ramblings. Do not be fooled by the large amount of cutting and pasting that he does, either. That only indicates he knows how to use a word processor to obscure his distinct lack of scholarship and dishonesty.
You missed the point that in addition to having a PhDuh in "cutting N pasting" I was also learned how to REED and RIGHT.

Directly contradicting Sanging and Clanging Paul commanded--because he could REED the RIGHTINGS of Christ--that we use ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH to teach "that which is written for our learning." Now, that is a DIRECT COMMAND for NO other role than Cutting N Pasting Christ's songs and sermons on the minds of the body which is not an AUDIENCE.

Elers were commanded to TEACH THAT WHICH HAS BEEN TAUGHT" and REFUTE those who do NOT teach that which has been taught.

You have to get in the NARROW way and NOT violate the direct command against private interpretation or further expounding that which CHIRST has fully expounded.

The ONLY way you can keep from TERMINAL sins (as at Mount Sinai) is to Cut N Paste in context.

I told you that religious musicians are called PARASITES and they would do ANYTHING to feed off the widow's plate.

Don't you find it a MARK that you don't know a single LATTER DAY PREACHER who does not say that GOD COMMANDED for them what God IMPOSED as punishment for a sin WITHOUT REDEMPTION? If you can't find one, that leaves Donnie and me who never sell the free water of the Word: that's a MARK.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

February 11th, 2012, 7:04 pm #12

Donnie: Briefly, please re-read and study Exodus 32 more carefully. [You might notice in v. 2 that "your sons" wore golden earrings. LOL!!!] Seriously, notice the molten calf. Notice the "dancing" in verse 19. Associate dancing with singing or music and musical instruments.

I missed that one completely but it fits the UNIVERSAL patternism of religious performers.
The word MUSIC demands dancing or "moving together" harmony as in body parts.

And she spake unto him according to these words, saying, The Hebrew servant, which thou hast brought unto us, came in unto me to mock [PLAY] me: Ge.39:17

Professor Robert Briffault's introductory words to his article titled "Sex in Religion" published in the book "Sex in Civilization" (Garden City Publishing Co.).

"The elaborate mystic theology of Egypt was replete with sexual symbolism; hierodular [sacred] prostitution, ritual bestiality were among the observances of its cult. The religions of Babylonia, of Asia Minor, of the far-flung Semitic colonies, were notorious for the licentiousness of their rites: their priestesses were sacred prostitutes and prostitution was incumbent upon every woman.

To this common description of early religious beliefs, we have the incident of Aaron bringing out the bull for the Israelites to worship when Moses remained longer on Mount Sinai than the people thought. The people were getting edgy so Aaron made a festivity for them by fashioning the golden calf and told them to worship the calf in a sexual manner (Exodus 32:25-35). God was angry with Aaron and the people for this. But the people thought that by their sexual actions they were actually worshipping God in a proper way. Their worship was to "Baal-Peor" (Hebrew: "Lord of the Opening," that is, "Lord of the Vagina") (see Psalm 106:28,29 for this identification). The rebellious Israelites were making images (and setting up pillars) in honor of this pagan deity that demanded gross sexual actions as a part of the "nature rituals" by the worshippers. This was nothing strange to the Israelites because most Gentile religious activities involved a measure of sexual activity as a part of their liturgies and rituals.


There is NO other evidence in the Bible or contemporaneous history which does not prove that the MOCKING most often induced by music or other drugs is sexual or homosexual. There is lots of recorded history that SLICK RHETORIC (preaching as opposed to reading and teaching), singing, instrument playing and THE PERSONA of what they blasphemously call "worship services" are the MARK and CAUSE of sexual perversion. There is nothing but MUSIC which can account for people forcing their agenda.
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Brian Cade
Brian Cade

February 11th, 2012, 10:45 pm #13

You missed the point that in addition to having a PhDuh in "cutting N pasting" I was also learned how to REED and RIGHT.

Directly contradicting Sanging and Clanging Paul commanded--because he could REED the RIGHTINGS of Christ--that we use ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH to teach "that which is written for our learning." Now, that is a DIRECT COMMAND for NO other role than Cutting N Pasting Christ's songs and sermons on the minds of the body which is not an AUDIENCE.

Elers were commanded to TEACH THAT WHICH HAS BEEN TAUGHT" and REFUTE those who do NOT teach that which has been taught.

You have to get in the NARROW way and NOT violate the direct command against private interpretation or further expounding that which CHIRST has fully expounded.

The ONLY way you can keep from TERMINAL sins (as at Mount Sinai) is to Cut N Paste in context.

I told you that religious musicians are called PARASITES and they would do ANYTHING to feed off the widow's plate.

Don't you find it a MARK that you don't know a single LATTER DAY PREACHER who does not say that GOD COMMANDED for them what God IMPOSED as punishment for a sin WITHOUT REDEMPTION? If you can't find one, that leaves Donnie and me who never sell the free water of the Word: that's a MARK.
Proverbs 10:19
When words are many, sin is not absent, but he who holds his tongue is wise.

Matthew 6:7
And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.

Ecclesiastes 5:3
As a dream comes when there are many cares, so the speech of a fool when there are many words.
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Greg
Greg

February 11th, 2012, 11:01 pm #14

Greg, Ken is not a trained Bible scholar interested in truth nor is he willing to admit when he is wrong, as he often is. His motivation is not to teach truth but to win arguments and he will do so by any means necessary, including attacking and condemning anyone who dares disagree with him. He also will fabricate lies and claim they are from the Bible, for example, teaching that the Israelites were condemned for musical idolatry (whatever that means) at Mt Sinai, when the relevant passage in Exodus 32 says nothing of the kind.
You would do well to ignore Ken's ramblings. Do not be fooled by the large amount of cutting and pasting that he does, either. That only indicates he knows how to use a word processor to obscure his distinct lack of scholarship and dishonesty.
My focus is to continue to study and learn God's way and to reflect His way in my living. Part of that involves diligent study of Scripture and issues that are of the meat and not just the milk of the Word. Sometimes this focus involves being a doer of the Word such as showing love to others, teaching, serving, helping the poor, hungry, needy, etc.

Ken provides, for me, an interesting and in-depth perspective of looking at the Scriptures. I just like to absorb what I can from the overflow of information he provides. I would also be willing to study with you regarding the same topics. If you want, you can take my original post with those questions (including the follow up questions) and give me your perspective and insight as well. None of us may agree on all personal preferences but it is the matters of faith that are key, I believe.

I don't get involved in personal attacks and name calling. I don't have the inclination or the time. Doing that just takes me off of my focus and my goal and it just doesn't seem to reflect patience with each other. So I will respect you and Ken and anyone, regardless of what anyone else chooses to do or say about each other.

I hope you receive this in the loving spirit it was intended.

Greg

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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

February 11th, 2012, 11:21 pm #15

Proverbs 10:19
When words are many, sin is not absent, but he who holds his tongue is wise.

Matthew 6:7
And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.

Ecclesiastes 5:3
As a dream comes when there are many cares, so the speech of a fool when there are many words.
Proverbs ten is intended to be read and understood by definint the Words.It would be nice if those not intending to be a disciple not muddy up Gregs thread. Here is the reason lifting texts is dangerous.

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Joined: January 28th, 2012, 10:19 pm

March 8th, 2012, 8:58 pm #16

My focus is to continue to study and learn God's way and to reflect His way in my living. Part of that involves diligent study of Scripture and issues that are of the meat and not just the milk of the Word. Sometimes this focus involves being a doer of the Word such as showing love to others, teaching, serving, helping the poor, hungry, needy, etc.

Ken provides, for me, an interesting and in-depth perspective of looking at the Scriptures. I just like to absorb what I can from the overflow of information he provides. I would also be willing to study with you regarding the same topics. If you want, you can take my original post with those questions (including the follow up questions) and give me your perspective and insight as well. None of us may agree on all personal preferences but it is the matters of faith that are key, I believe.

I don't get involved in personal attacks and name calling. I don't have the inclination or the time. Doing that just takes me off of my focus and my goal and it just doesn't seem to reflect patience with each other. So I will respect you and Ken and anyone, regardless of what anyone else chooses to do or say about each other.

I hope you receive this in the loving spirit it was intended.

Greg
Consider the passage in Romans 16:17-18 which provides an example that those who those who cause divisions and offenses contrary to Bible doctrine be noted and avoided. The reason why is stated in vs 18 they don't serve God and they deceive the elect. They should not be allowed free access to the faithful church.

Consider the passage in Galatians 1:6-10 which provides another aspect of false teachers. The Holy Spirit through Paul says let them be accursed that teach another gospel and twice says the same thing. That which is accursed is to be noted and avoided. We do not advocate nor promote that which the Bible says is accursed.

Consider the passage in Galatians 2:4-6 which tells us the inspired example is not to submit to false doctrine no not for one hour.

The gist of the matter is that we dismantle and dispose of ideas and concepts that are not taught in the BIble. The reason we do this is that the souls of the elect may be protected from the confusion and wrong attitudes that come from false teaching. We must also identify who is teaching false ideas so that there influence will be negated. It is a matter of loving the truth and preserving the faithful in Gods kingdom.

Comments welcome

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Greg
Greg

March 9th, 2012, 2:05 am #17

Thank you for your prompt response. Ok......

From your point #2 about the singing can I infer that outward singing is at least not against God's law? I understand that you do not understand its purpose from a personal perspective, but I sense you are not actually advocating that scripture condemns it. Accurate assessment or not?

"Social Singing" has always been a way to bind "tribal" groups together. There is some evidence that social singing binds the group to the Alpha Male. I know that Preachers have a problem with knowing how to "do" church so that it works.

Many people love it, but lots of people feel the anxiety oozing out when perfect complex harmony is deliberately produced thinking that perfectly performed singing some how appeases God. I am one of those whose "anxiety" rides very close to the "edge" and a college chorus can push me over creating both spiritual and physical damage. That is based on the creation of endorphins and other "goodies" which produce the impulse to Fight, Flight or Sexual feelings. Loud singing which OSHA would outlaw if it had the nerve creates Decibel poisoning. That happens when sound is over about 85db and church music can produce 110 with permanent damage to the hearing.

We know that singing as an ACT came c. 373 so singing was not understood to be a liturgical act: that divided the west from the east churches. Even then singing would be like the modern Muslims or Jews sing: it is not metrical. If there is a command to sing in a tuneful sense, and the command is to "use one mind and one mouth to speak that which is written for our learning," then we are in trouble because God did not provide anything metrical in a tuneful sense. The Catholic never sang in a tuneful sense and the organ never accompanied congregational singing. After the Reformation people accustomed to gather in the now-state owned cathedrals learned to love harmony (not a Biblical command). Men like Calvin came to approve some Psalms (only) to be radically rewritten (many in error) and set to one of a few melodies to be sung in unison (only). Harmony came later. That's why it may be acceptable but no one can claim it as a restoration of First Century Churches.


I have a sense of Christian unity when the congregation is singing with one heart/mind words which admonish, encourage, challenge and teach. It is of course not the only way this occurs as a Christian but is a way I believe I experience. This of course is done when one is truly focused on the words and thoughts being sung and not on how we sound harmony-wise. If you heard me or any of my family growing up singing, you would be confident we all needed a bucket to carry a tune. There were/are no buckets available in the churches I attended or attend and none of us would ever be accused of being Pavarotti! LOL! But I believe we sang with the spirit and meaning of the words and the Christian ideals and standards that were contained in those songs which is part of your points #3 and #7 and #8.

I don't have any agenda to eleminate it: my wife and three girls constituted a pretty good "team" in the earlier years: I finally had to go see a doctor. He said have surgery which probably won't work or go to the University for speech therapy or QUIT trying to sing in church. I know others who have lost lots of their speech because of trying to outdo others in "doing my part." My then 94 year old Mother couldn't agree with me more but that is why a large percentage of people endure singing as hurting: the Greeks understood that and separated social festivals into age groups. That also includes lots of hearing loss.

I give to the church where I attend an offering and I save some money for the poor, missions in Central America or other special food needs in the community. I guess I give (not tithe) AND I lay by instore for other occasions. Is this what you understand scripture to teach or am I in error here?

That's true: you cannot do a modern assembly without a building and lots of costs: the early synagogue collected only for the poor but someone had to pay for the large number of buildings. Lots depends on whether you can trust the people handling the money. We know that the Tabernacle was built by free will giving and certainly the Bible defends it. But there is no law which you have to obey. Almost by definition a church cannot get much of its funds to the poor and collective efforts may let the few do the work so that the "mite givers" can feel secure. The "Lay by him in story" is I believe what Jesus was speaking about: if you see someone in need you should give alms. At the same time when a church moves toward the "social gospel" it is easy to minimize the command to assemble yourself to learn. You could do that better at home with a computer but "confessing together" seems to be speaking or singing the Words of Christ as a mutual confession. Praise ditties composed by people not very Scriptural I think defeats that.

Before churches in the ancient world and even in my time small communities had a community building and took care of those in need. A DISCIPLE is a STUDENT and when Paul uses "give heed to" or "give attendance to" he uses forms of "worship."


On a personal note, I come from a family of which some have engineering(metallurgical/aerospace and electrical) and military backgrounds (army and navy). I was neither as my career interests lie in the business world and my wife and I own our business. I say that because I understand and can appreciate your technical way of communicating and writing. Thank you for your efforts to make it more palatable for me.

Because of you, I learned what plecturn, musing and applicate mean. I too was taught to never go past a word I did not understand. Thanks for reminding me and challenging me!

Look forward to your reply.

Tell the "psallo" based instrumentalists that they violate the command to use only the fingers and only on a string: you cannot pluck a trumpet.

I learned Applicate when the Bible head of a Christian school used it. Another is EXPLICATE which is outlawed as private interpretation or further expounding. Before you explicate or applicate we should educate and let the Bible rest in its own culture. I can't think of any change in culture which would minimize a Disciple of Christ from being a Student of Christ. The Campbells really tried to restore worship as Reading and Musing the Word: of course the Lord's Supper is a teaching activity. I think "doubtful disputation" in Romans 14 was Paul saying "let your personal opinions not hinder just teaching the text" in context.
Ken,

Can you give me Greek word used in James 5:16 which distinguishes the English words "sin" vs. "faults"? Also what is the key distinguishing features and theological implications?

Thanks in advance!

Greg
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Greg
Greg

March 9th, 2012, 2:22 am #18

Thank you for your prompt response. Ok......

From your point #2 about the singing can I infer that outward singing is at least not against God's law? I understand that you do not understand its purpose from a personal perspective, but I sense you are not actually advocating that scripture condemns it. Accurate assessment or not?

"Social Singing" has always been a way to bind "tribal" groups together. There is some evidence that social singing binds the group to the Alpha Male. I know that Preachers have a problem with knowing how to "do" church so that it works.

Many people love it, but lots of people feel the anxiety oozing out when perfect complex harmony is deliberately produced thinking that perfectly performed singing some how appeases God. I am one of those whose "anxiety" rides very close to the "edge" and a college chorus can push me over creating both spiritual and physical damage. That is based on the creation of endorphins and other "goodies" which produce the impulse to Fight, Flight or Sexual feelings. Loud singing which OSHA would outlaw if it had the nerve creates Decibel poisoning. That happens when sound is over about 85db and church music can produce 110 with permanent damage to the hearing.

We know that singing as an ACT came c. 373 so singing was not understood to be a liturgical act: that divided the west from the east churches. Even then singing would be like the modern Muslims or Jews sing: it is not metrical. If there is a command to sing in a tuneful sense, and the command is to "use one mind and one mouth to speak that which is written for our learning," then we are in trouble because God did not provide anything metrical in a tuneful sense. The Catholic never sang in a tuneful sense and the organ never accompanied congregational singing. After the Reformation people accustomed to gather in the now-state owned cathedrals learned to love harmony (not a Biblical command). Men like Calvin came to approve some Psalms (only) to be radically rewritten (many in error) and set to one of a few melodies to be sung in unison (only). Harmony came later. That's why it may be acceptable but no one can claim it as a restoration of First Century Churches.


I have a sense of Christian unity when the congregation is singing with one heart/mind words which admonish, encourage, challenge and teach. It is of course not the only way this occurs as a Christian but is a way I believe I experience. This of course is done when one is truly focused on the words and thoughts being sung and not on how we sound harmony-wise. If you heard me or any of my family growing up singing, you would be confident we all needed a bucket to carry a tune. There were/are no buckets available in the churches I attended or attend and none of us would ever be accused of being Pavarotti! LOL! But I believe we sang with the spirit and meaning of the words and the Christian ideals and standards that were contained in those songs which is part of your points #3 and #7 and #8.

I don't have any agenda to eleminate it: my wife and three girls constituted a pretty good "team" in the earlier years: I finally had to go see a doctor. He said have surgery which probably won't work or go to the University for speech therapy or QUIT trying to sing in church. I know others who have lost lots of their speech because of trying to outdo others in "doing my part." My then 94 year old Mother couldn't agree with me more but that is why a large percentage of people endure singing as hurting: the Greeks understood that and separated social festivals into age groups. That also includes lots of hearing loss.

I give to the church where I attend an offering and I save some money for the poor, missions in Central America or other special food needs in the community. I guess I give (not tithe) AND I lay by instore for other occasions. Is this what you understand scripture to teach or am I in error here?

That's true: you cannot do a modern assembly without a building and lots of costs: the early synagogue collected only for the poor but someone had to pay for the large number of buildings. Lots depends on whether you can trust the people handling the money. We know that the Tabernacle was built by free will giving and certainly the Bible defends it. But there is no law which you have to obey. Almost by definition a church cannot get much of its funds to the poor and collective efforts may let the few do the work so that the "mite givers" can feel secure. The "Lay by him in story" is I believe what Jesus was speaking about: if you see someone in need you should give alms. At the same time when a church moves toward the "social gospel" it is easy to minimize the command to assemble yourself to learn. You could do that better at home with a computer but "confessing together" seems to be speaking or singing the Words of Christ as a mutual confession. Praise ditties composed by people not very Scriptural I think defeats that.

Before churches in the ancient world and even in my time small communities had a community building and took care of those in need. A DISCIPLE is a STUDENT and when Paul uses "give heed to" or "give attendance to" he uses forms of "worship."


On a personal note, I come from a family of which some have engineering(metallurgical/aerospace and electrical) and military backgrounds (army and navy). I was neither as my career interests lie in the business world and my wife and I own our business. I say that because I understand and can appreciate your technical way of communicating and writing. Thank you for your efforts to make it more palatable for me.

Because of you, I learned what plecturn, musing and applicate mean. I too was taught to never go past a word I did not understand. Thanks for reminding me and challenging me!

Look forward to your reply.

Tell the "psallo" based instrumentalists that they violate the command to use only the fingers and only on a string: you cannot pluck a trumpet.

I learned Applicate when the Bible head of a Christian school used it. Another is EXPLICATE which is outlawed as private interpretation or further expounding. Before you explicate or applicate we should educate and let the Bible rest in its own culture. I can't think of any change in culture which would minimize a Disciple of Christ from being a Student of Christ. The Campbells really tried to restore worship as Reading and Musing the Word: of course the Lord's Supper is a teaching activity. I think "doubtful disputation" in Romans 14 was Paul saying "let your personal opinions not hinder just teaching the text" in context.
Can you comment on singing we may do alone and not in the worship? Specifically when we may be singing along to a hymn at home, some may play a piano as well or sing along to a gospel music station on the radio. Does the command for corporate worship (no instruments) also hold for private times as well. Interested in your thoughts on this....
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

March 9th, 2012, 9:08 pm #19

Ken,

Can you give me Greek word used in James 5:16 which distinguishes the English words "sin" vs. "faults"? Also what is the key distinguishing features and theological implications?

Thanks in advance!

Greg
I have updated my review of James 5 where you can click on the links since my opinion ammounts to little. I am always amazed that when you "fall into the hole" of looking at how people of that time would understand words that almost never do you fail to find condenmmed those who use the performing arts and crafts (definition of a hypocrite). That may not mean what James had in mind but it does mean that those who "see beyond the sacred page" always have to explain away that which they are doing as SELF WILL.

James Chapter 5 condemns unrighteous men who use music to seduce

http://www.piney.com/James.5.html

hamart-ia , h,
A. a failure, fault, tnd' ha. domn A.Ag.1197, etc.; ou t heautou hamartia khrsthai Antipho 4.3.4; ha. doxs error of judgement, Th.1.32.
2. in Philos. and Religion, guilt, sin, Pl.Lg.660c, al., Arist.EN1148a3, al., LXX Ge.18.20, al., Ev.Jo.8.46,al.

Latin: pecctum , i
pecco , to offend in any respect:


A JUST OR RIGHTEOUS MAN IS THE OPPOSITE OF:

pellco or perlco , to allure, entice, inveigle, decoy, coax, wheedle, etc. fraudem
B. Transf.: alienam segetem (alienas fruges, etc.), to draw away the fruits of another's land to one's own by incantations and magical arts
, Serv. Verg. E. 8, 99; Plin. 18, 6, 8, § 41.
dulcdo , nis, f. dulcis, : agrariae legis, orationis, Cic. de Or. 3, 40, 161; cf. vocis, Ov. M. 1, 709: gloriae, Cic. Arch. 10, 24 vox , tremebunda, id. ib. 3, 14, 25: theatrum ita resonans, deripere lunam vocibus, with charms, incantations,





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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

March 9th, 2012, 9:20 pm #20

Can you comment on singing we may do alone and not in the worship? Specifically when we may be singing along to a hymn at home, some may play a piano as well or sing along to a gospel music station on the radio. Does the command for corporate worship (no instruments) also hold for private times as well. Interested in your thoughts on this....
I did a paper on this issue some time back but I need to update it.

My personal opinion is that sing non-biblical text or playing instruments is not evil of itself.

My understanding that the Qahal, synagogue or Church in the wilderness was for Rest, Reading and Rehearsing the Word of God: speaking and meditating.

The synagogue excluded vocal or instrumental rejoicing or elevated forms of rhetoric.

I believe that Paul and peter define the nature of the assembly so that it is A School of Christ (the Campbells) or A School of the Word of Christ.

No one disputed that until the year 373 when the east and west churches were split becausse the Syrians imposed singing as an ACT: that was to sing their own text.

If we sing and play and hum and eat popcorn that has "entertainment value only" and it does not totally disable the purpose of church as a School of the Word. The oppposite view is that there is a LAW OF SINGING but there is no direct command for congregational singing.

I will update my paper which includes research from other people.

If people could grasp that Qahal, synagogue, church was a WORD ONLY assembly for edification or education I don't believe that any godly person could impose instruments or "teams" knowing that they are sowing massive discord.
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