Ken Sublett

Brian Cade
Brian Cade

February 8th, 2012, 8:54 pm #11

We have made it absolutely clear and no one can dispute it:

Those who had a long-term agenda to slowly "boil the frog" and add musical instruments and sow discord and break up families:
  • Have worked in consert (we might call that conspiracy) with the Christian Church and have used their PRIESTLY religion books and sermons.

    I have told the world that ALL of the proof texts used to prove that PSALLO commands instrumental music (for the first time in ANY history in the year 1878) quote the PLUCKING part but do not say that PSALLO never means to play an instrument. If you PLUCK a harp string then you pluck: it means nothing unless you define WHAT is to be plucked.

    While it is not nice to shoot the messenger, I suspect that I would also be embarassed if my "fleecees" discovered that the CONTEXT of their prooftexts ALSO point to males plucking the harp string (and being labeled as vile) in order to PLUCK a young boy whos hairS had been PLUCKED.
Sure, THAT is what Jesus pointed out as the Spirit OF CHRIST in the Prophets and in MANY spoken and acted parables used to HIDE the truth from the Jewish religionists.
  • If it is not CHRIST LIKE to tell people that the universal PERSONAE of religious performers is that of gender-challenged and most performed "religion" and THAT has not changed in OUR culture,

    Then WHY is it so CHRIST LIKE to sow discord just to MAKE A PLACE IN THE MAINSTREAM and actully USE them in the "Holy Places" claimg to LEAD the "audience" into God's presence when EKKLESIA is a ONE-ANOTHER speaking that which is written school of the Bible?
Rather than being threatened by this, perhaps there is time in Germany to REPENT of using a Navigating the Winds of Change which was articulated perfecty in Mein Kampf.

I suggest that someone should make sure that the modern Germans understand how para-church groups use the methods which destroyed their nation by a man who CLAIMED to be FOLLOWING IN THE STEPS OF JESUS who had--as he MISread the Bible-- "murdered" a million Jews as the APPROVED EXAMPLE. He, too, heard the SPIRITS murmur instructions to him. Jesus speaks through the Word as His SPIRIT and source of LIFE.

You should also make sure that ALL German churches read the following which shows that Richard Wagner was Hitler's Musical Worship Minister used to COLLECTIVIZE the HUMAN MATERIAL.

There is no exception to the fact that MUSICAL PERFORMANCE and all PERFORMANCE ARTS is DEFINED under the heading of DEMAGOGUE. There is no exception that musical performance has always been used to COLLECTIVIZE the tribes to walking in the STEPS OF THE TYRANT connected to DEMAGOGUE connected to KLEPTOMA.

These PATHETIC BOOKS and sermons 100% of the time lie about God and to God by quoting or even alluding to isolated parts of verses of the priestly, civil state religion to which God abandoned Israel because of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai. [stephen 101aaa]

They have never read the context nor understood the story line of the curse of the Monarchy (senior pastor).

Not even in the VILEST of pagan temples--of which Jerusalem was one of the worst--could slick speakers, singers or musicians enter into the Holy Place as a SHADOW type of the body or church of Christ, EVEN to clean out the garbage left over from musical idolatyr.

Therefore, false teachers not only try to mislead using a Goyim or Gentile-like "Stopping the purge" animal sacrifice as GOD COMMANDING INSTRUMENTAL PRAISE and then WE MUST NOT BE DISOBEDIENT, they go beyond what would be permitted in the Mother Goddess temples where all of the priests and singers were emasculated or even sex-changed but NEVER allowed in the CELLA or "presence of the god."

Therefore, for Bible-literate readers, any attempt to IMPOSE the curse of the WORSHIP OF THE STARRY HOST including Saturn numbered 666, from the PRIESTLY-CIVIL-MILITARY sacrificial system would border on mental confusion.

On the other hand
  • the Spirit OF Christ spoke through the PROPHETS
    and not through Kings (dominant pastors) HAND PICKED to carry out the captivity and death penalty imposed BECAUSE of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai.
Read Acts 7 where Stephen ALSO was silenced because HE told the "generation of vipers" or "crooked generation" (meaning perverted skolion singers) EXACTLY what I have said and MOST IF NOT ALL preachers have been BLINDED about.

Now, killer of the messenger, You have never read anything on this or other threads by this writer which did NOT;
  • Attempt to impose some Bible literacy 101aaa.
    Post the CONTEXT of their PROOF text for which they have granted themselves "liberty" to rewrite the narrative.
    Post some of the Story Line so that baptized believers with A holy spirit will not be fleeced by someone wanting to build an ark in the parking lot: Especially if they CLAIM that the Holy Spirit is speaking to them. All of the Bible DISPUTES that false claim to the GODHOOD.
You, TOO-NERVOUS friend, seem to be laboring under the illusion created by NOT ever beginning with Genesis 1 and then seeing that the Serpent in the garden was a Musical Enchanter. Typified as Lucifer "the singing and harp playing prostitute."

If you have been "fabricated" in any of the ONCE-Christian Bible Schools you have
  • Firsly, been STARVED for lack of understanding the Old Testament because none of the PhDuhs have a clue based on their books, sermons and PRODUCT.

    You probably have been INDOCTRINATED by men who were ALREADY duped into the UNITY MOVEMENT meaning YOU CAPITULATE, and CANNOT tell the truth about the MUSIC-MEANS-IDOLATRY construct.

    They have written and confessed that the colleges should exercise a PROPHETIC ROLE to be Chanellers and Facilitatorsy of "advanced degrees" (about 212 degrees F) to GO OUT into "conservative churches" and RESTRUCTURE THEM. I have reviewed a bunch of books and articles and I make the RAW ASSERTION that they CANNOT ethicallly quote men like Chrystom or Luther without EITHER deliberately lying or by simply QUOTING what some other PhDuh wrote in order to get that new still-bleeding sheep skin.
Now, I know fully well that the INSTRUMENAL ONCE Church of Christ diverters have TEAMED with INSTRUMENTAL Christian churches to go on MISSION and WORK LIKE LITTLE JESUS WALKERS to CONVERT people to the Christian Church meaning INSTRUMENTAL.

One of our "conservative" universities sent out their THEATRICAL DEPARTMENT dressed as GARGOYLES (demons) to LEAD more people to Christ.

Now, you may need to CONFESS that you REALLY have one of those hidden agendas to TAKE CAPTIVE the German churches using the same SCHEME which worked on the HUMAN MATERIAL FOR HITLER into being a COMMUNITY which means COMMUNE. One of the leading changelings even quoted MACHIAVELLI to explain why it takes a DECADES HIDDEN AGENDA unless you intend to use more VIOLENT MEANS. OTHERWISE, I am not sure why you are so opposed by FREE SPEECH. The torch has passed from neo-pagan churches to individuals INTO WHOSE HANDS Jesus put the GO button in the first place.

Because you cannot find a SINGLE case where I have not posted the FULL CONTEXT which the preacher-hirelings CHRUNCH into little pieces to DIVERT and SOW DISCORD (sure some boast about infiltrating and diverting), I think that the READERS and "sponsoring churches" and members whose funds are being DIVERTED to the enemy should WAKE UP

I accept that as DEFACTO PROVEN because you WILL NOT defend a single one of the PROOF ASSERTIONS used to sow discord, nor will you EXPLAIN to people why my IN CONTEXT quoation is NOT following in the Steps of Jesus Christ who as the spirit OF Christ told all of the PROPHETS to radically condemn the PRIESTLY religionism which STARVED the people for LACK of the Word of God. The MARK is always MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS.

If you are not nice I am going to begin posting the ABSOLUTE PROOF that "preacher" is not on the approved list in Ephesians 4; that Paul called the "manny" robbers, that Peter called the "manny" corrupters of the word meaning '"selling at retail" and that PREACHING as an act was IMPOSED at about the same time that SINGING and the use of NON-Scripture songs SLITHERED IN--about the year 373: too late to be New Testament Church. Catholic added music because, they confessed, it was COMMON TO ALL PAGAN CULTS. Alexander Campbell called "trained and placed" preachers the CRAFTIEST CRAFT OF ALL.

I might begin my rant that there is NO LAW OF TITHING and there is NO LAW OF GIVING because Paul told me so and the historical church was LITERATE enough not to have "passing the plate" as an ACT of worship. "Conservative" scholars of the Restoration Movement deny that BUDGET is part of School of the Bible. Thomas Campbell DENIED that any elder or deacon has any authority to add the ANXIETY of imposing DEPT: Paul denied that you have the right to impose PLEASING or "creating mental excitement" which is connected to rhetoric, singing and instruments.

Those are the TWIN TOWERS upon which modern COMMUNE builders build with all of the earmarks of a CULT. The Cockatrice's eggs are finally HATCHING OUT.
Why shoot the messenger? Because the meesenger is a raving lunatic.

Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

February 8th, 2012, 10:44 pm #12

"Of particular interest is the way that early modern playwrights, music theorists, and theater apologists addressed this conflated language of the "enemy," by echoing the same connections between sexuality and playing found in the most virulent antitheatrical tracts.

"As this paper will demonstrate, by "playing" with the conflated language, these writers defended their art,

justifying their existence in a society that was both seduced and repulsed by them. By claiming the polemical antitheatrical language, these players escaped from the ideological margins to which their opponents had tried to relegate them.

Using the artifices of mimesis (imitation) and comedy
they pointed out and defused their opponents' anxieties about music, theater, and sexuality,
creating a space for players in the cultural mainstream.

"Among more sophisticated persons it was recognized that many of the prophets were merely lunatics and that their utterances were misleading; but the popular assumption of divine guidance was not readily abandoned." (Parkes, Henry Bamford, Gods and Men The Origins of Western Culture, p. 106, Knopf)

(Parkes, Henry Bamford, Gods and Men The Origins of Western Culture, p. 106, Knopf

"Awed by the mysteries of his own spirit (See 1 Cor 14) no less than by those of nature, primitive man was likely to attribute to divine influence any abnormal emotional state, whether above or below the usual level. Medicine men customarily went into states of trance

in which they were believed to be in communication with the gods,
and many tribes supposed lunatics and sexual deviants to be divinely possessed.

"In most early societies, moreover, men evolved techniques
for deliberately inducing the abnormal forms of consciousness
in which they supposed themselves to achieve union with divine power,
sometimes by the use of drugs and other physiological stimuli,
sometimes by hypnotic dances and music.

The wild utterances (praise singing) to which they gave vent on such occasions were regarded as the words of a god and were interpreted as divine commands or predictions of future events." (Parkes, H.B., Gods and Men, p. 32-33).

"In this fashion every common tribal interest--the recurrence of the seasons, the increase of the food supply, successful hunting--was likely to become embodied

in some regularly repeated ceremony, which usually included group dancing, singing, and feasting.
Besides enabling men to express, and thereby to allay, anger and anxiety, such ceremonies also promoted tribal unity and strengthened the loyalty of the individual to tribal traditions,

for the emotional excitement they aroused had the effect of breaking down the barriers between individuals
and thus fusing all tribesmen into a collective whole. Meanwhile, whole systems of magical devices were gradually elaborated." (Parkes, p. 29)

"The development both of religion and of the arts can be traced back in a continuous line to the hunting era. The group ritual of the primeval tribesmen were the origin not only of all religious ceremonial, but also of the drama and of poetry and music, while magic gave birth to the visual arts." (Parkes, p. 30).

"Awed by the mysteries of his own spirit no less than by those of nature, primitive man was likely to attribute to divine influence any abnormal emotional state, whether above or below the usual level. Medicine men customarily went into states of trance in which they were believed to be in communication with the gods, and many tribes supposed lunatics and sexual deviants to be divinely possessed.

All Sabazianism or Stary Worship (and serpents) to which God abandoned the PATTERNISTS Levites and those who claim that a spirit told them to "follow their patternism." had to be MALES but they had to perform the roles of women. The Levites "praise" originated in Egypt was to to threaten sexual abuse to threaten the enemy. The clothes worn by not-commanded priests were the Stola or the garb of bad women. The clothes, the songs and the style of presentation was effeminate. That also defined rhetoric in the preachery style. That is why God left us a MARK to sort out the Crooked Generation: the command was to PREACH the Word by READING the Word. That is the ONE PIECE PATTERNISM because the Lord's Supper is a teaching aid.

Brian Cade
Brian Cade

February 9th, 2012, 7:56 pm #13

More equivocation. You cannot define a word in one sense and then use it in a different sense as support. Your argument is invalid.

Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

February 9th, 2012, 10:10 pm #14

When up to 1/2 of the congregations leaves rapidly they may not know about the persona of ALL religious music and musicians. The Greeks taught that "if a man plays and sings he is either drunk, perverted or just having fun." Plato expressed the view that if a performer came into a civil district and wanted to get paid they would cover him with Honey and dab him with cotton (tar and feather) because no such person was allowed in their community. Religious musicians were always mocked as PARASITES.

"Philodemus considered it paradoxical that music should be regarded as veneration of the gods while musicians were paid for performing this so-called veneration. Again, Philodemus held as self deceptive the view that music mediated religious ecstasy. He saw the entire condition induced by the noise of cymbals and tambourines as a disturbance of the spirit.

He found it significant that, on the whole, only women and effeminate men fell into this folly.

Accordingly, nothing of value could be attributed to music; it was no more than a slave of the sensation of pleasure, which satisfied much in the same way that food and drink did.

Similar opinions may be found in the writings of Philo. On one occasion he spoke of the Jewish "Feast of Fasting," used by the Greeks for the Day of Atonement:

"Now, many a man from the false religions, which are not ashamed of criticising what is noble, will ask: how can there be a feast without carousing and overeating, without the pleasant company of hosts and guests, without quantities of unmixed wine, without richly set tables and highly stacked provisions of everything that pertains to a banquet, without pageantry and jokes,

bantering and merry-making to the accompaniment of flutes and citharas, the sound of drums and cymbals and other effeminate and frivolous music of every king,

enkindling unbridled lusts with the help of the sense of hearing. For in and through the same [pleasures] those persons openly seek their joy, for what true joy is their they do not know.

Women's singing was a vital part of all pagan worship. In very early times women became priestly singers of the gods in the temple.

"Women and girls from the different ranks of society were proud to enter the service of the gods as singers and musicians. The understanding of this service was universal: these singers constituted the 'harem of the gods'." (End of Quasten)

"Before the establishment of the kingdom under Saul, it was the women who, as in every young civilization, played a major part in the performance of music. Such figures as Miriam, Deborah, Jephthah's daughter, and the women hailing the young hero David have become almost archetypes of female musicians.

"Characteristic of all these cases is the familiar picture of a female chorus, dancing and singing, accompanied by frenzied drum-beating.

This is the scene known to the entire Near East, and not
"even the severe rule of Islam could wholly suppress this age-old practice." (Int Dict of the Bible, Music, p. 457).

"There is incontrovertible archaeological evidence for the antiquity of the musical guilds themselves. The Phoenicians (Canaanites) outshone their contemporaries in music, and the Israelites were early influenced by them.

Musical guilds of the Hebrews may be traced back in some instances,
to old Canaanite families whose designations, such as Hemen the Ezrahite (I Chron. 2:6),
became a part of later Hebrew family names." (Unger, Merril, Archaeology and the Old Testament, Zondervan, P. 216-7)


A deeper-reaching attempt to explain the significance of the castrato age has been made by Moses (1960) in an interesting paper on the psychology of the castrato voice. He interprets the emergence of this vocal fashion as the fulfillment of an age-old dream wish of bisexual hermaphroditism. Even if one does not follow Moses in some of his somewhat overdrawn conclusions, there is left enough of a solid basis for his theory. Hermaphroditic mythology plays an important part in cultural history. In collections of primitive art one sometimes see sculptures of idols each with female breasts and a penis

Voices mirror not only individual characters but the spirit of a period as well. In this sense the voice of the castrato personifies the bisexual ideal with its unity of a female voice in a man's body. In the mythological atmosphere of the baroque opera the castrato portrayed gods and mythological persons who presented male and female characteristics in a vocal hermaphroditic combination.
In an unfinished book that Paul Moses left at his death he predicted, over ten years ago, quite correctly the approach of another age of crossover of the sexes. The young generation of today favors fashions that obliterate the differences between the sexes. Girls wear pants, and young men sport girlish long hair and wear necklaces and bracelets. The classical love song of the nineteenth century, the love-centered operettas, and the popular songs of the "June-moon" variety of the first half of this century have given way to the harsh rhythms of rock and roll of the unisex generation. And the phoniatrist sees among his patients an increasing number of young adult males who do not use the deep masculine voice that the pubertal growth of the larynx offers but continue to speak in an artificial high pitch of almost female sound. Friedrich S. Brodnitz, M.D.



February 20th, 2012, 11:49 pm #15

I've been wading through this joker's material for months. This guy is a blooming idiot.

Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

February 21st, 2012, 4:01 am #16

"We know that Canaanite prophets were organized in guilds centered on the larger sanctuaries, as, for example, 'the prophets of Baal four hundred and fifty, and the prophets of the Asherah four hundred,' with whom Elijah had memorable dealings on Mount Carmel (1 Kings 18). Similarly, Israelite cultic prophets were to be found in and around the sanctuaries, roving about in rowdy troops, working themselves up into frenzies by dancing and music, and uttering semi-coherent oracles which the credulous accepted as divinely inspired." (Heaton, E. W., Everyday Life in the Old Testament, p. 221, Scribners) (Also see de Vaux, p. 242)

"Among these pupils is found to much greater extent than among the teachers a certain ecstatic feature. They arouse their feelings through music and induce a frantic condition which also affects others in the same way, in which state they 'prophesy' and, throwing off their garments, fall to the ground. In later times too we find traces of such ecstatic phenomena. Thus e.g. in Zech 13:6; 1 Ki. 20:37-38, the 'wounds' on the breast or on the forehead recall the self-mutilation of the priests of Baal (1 Ki. 18:28). The deeds, suggestive of what the dervishes of our own day do, probably were phenomena quite similar to the action of the prophets of the surrounding tribes" (Int Std Bible Ency., Prophecy, p. 2462)

"'Now they leap spiritedly into the air, now they bend their knees to the ground and revolve on them like persons possessed." Now compare with the passage in 1 K 19:18 where God promises Elijah that he will spare 'those who have not bent the knew before Baal.'... This also explains Elijah's reproach in 1 K 18:21 where he accuses those who would serve both Baal and Yahweh at the same time of 'hobbling first on one leg, then on the other." (de Vaux, p. 241).

"We have evidence of ritual dances in the context of other Syrian cults. One of the Ras Shamra poems, in a passage which is unfortunately full of gaps, mention mrqdm 'dancers' apparently in connection with a sacrifice. Herodian depicts Heliogabalus at a sacrifice to his god of Emesa, 'dancing round the altars to the sound of every kind of musical instruments; with him certain women of his country performed a sprightly round, with cymbals and tambourines in their hands." (de Vaux, p. 241).

"This is how Apuleius describes the cortege of the Syrian goddess '...they began to howl all out of tune and hurl themselves hither and thither, as though they were mad. They made a thousand gestures with their feet and their heads; they would bend down their necks and spin round so that their hair flew out in a circle; they would bite their own flesh; finally, every one took his two-edged weapon and wounded his arms in divers places." (de Vaux, p. 242)

The prophets of Baal performed a noisy form of "prophesying" but they could not "bring their gods into their presence." This "prophesying" was not pretty; it involved singing, music, naked dancing and even cutting themselves. The emotional "high" proved that the god was in them.

"All these texts point, explicitly or implicitly, to the fact that the dance had a musical accompaniment. Even though the Bible makes no mention of it we must assume that the movements of the prophets of Baal on Mount Carmel were made with an accompaniment on certain musical instruments... There is an obvious satirical intent in the biblical story and we could find no better illustration of a similar attitude than a rather curious bas-relief in the Museo delle Terme in Rome whichderides a ceremony of Isis. In front of a row of images of the gods, men and women are dancing with grotesque contortions; their knees are all bent their heads thrown back and their arms upraised; they are holding castanets or the double flute. An aged choirmaster and a group of spectators mark time by clapping their hands." ( de Vaux, Roland, The Bible and the Ancient Near East, Doubleday, p. 242).

Joined: February 16th, 2012, 8:07 pm

February 21st, 2012, 4:56 am #17

...which has nothing to do with Mt Sinai. You don't get to add in commentary at will, especially when you are attempting to twist scripture to fit your wild assertions. Exodus 32 is silent about music at Mt Sinai. You've read something into the text that isn't there; worse, you've built doctrine on it, compounding your error. Your wasting your time.


April 6th, 2012, 1:09 am #18

You should understand that the NACC has their own stable of teachers actively trying to seduce peaceable churches of Christ into confirming their false teachings about music.

They have enlisted a few men to engage in a mock battle: A PRO instrumental "church of Christer" dialogs a PRO instrumental "Christian churcher."

These "dialogs" have been trafficed as UNITY MEETINGS in an attempt to RETURN the non-instrumental "erring brethren"--called a SECT--back into the fold of those identified as a CHURCH. The Church of Christ scholars do NOT understand that the Church of Christ was never part of the Disciples Denomination -- including the later secting of the Christian Church -- when they refused to be COUNTED in the 1906 census.

While the colleges invite men like David Faust in to discuss UNIFYING that which was never united, David Faust unloads the whole litany of FALSE TEACHING about the Bible and historical theologians. That is the same script read by Rick Atchley. The NACC and fellow "unifiers" then jump to spread their SIDE of the debate far and wide and church of Christ debaters sit in stunned silence. It is not arrogant to state that based on all of the papers and books, the Church of Christ rests its practice on older scholars. Therefore, they lie and call it "traditionalism" meaning that they CAUGHT the non-machine position like a disease. However, because MACHINE ritualists have infiltrated our universities, preachers accept false teaching and lack grounding in the Old Testament or scholarship. Nor, have the Greek gurus ever read "beyond the sacred page" of scholars who quote scholars who quote scholars.
  • Rick Atchley and others taunt: "No church of Christ college or university even defends the ANTI-instrumental position."

    I remember a young preacher in middle Tennessee tauntingly reporting that he had been discussing the issue with a "brother" preacher and he was convinced to NO LONGER preach against instruments."

    This becomes psychological violence making the LAITY too fearful of the NIKE to ever seem ignorant, legalistic or sectarian by ever opposing "God's annointeds."
As "proof 4" David Faust "arrogantly" asserts that Jesus had nothing to say about the instrumental / non-instrumental issue. I arrogantly assert that as the Spirit OF Christ in the PROPHETS He refuted the PRIESTLY RELIGION which was "the worship of the starry hosts." (Read Acts 7 and then I can point out a half dozen "prophetic" parallels.) Even IF Jesus DID NOT discuss instruments it might have been because both singing and instruments were OUTLAWED for the Qahal, synagogue or church in the wilderness. As a "people" -- as opposed to a NATIONAL teknokrat -- Jesus exampled the synagogue which "had no praise service." This is based on a direct command, all historic examples and minimal common sense: you don't MUSICATE in a school of the Bible.

Having DIVERTED the scholars, David Faust goes on to discuss HYPOCRITES. And there we have all of the "unifiers" with their rants down:

Jesus DID discuss rhetoricians, singers and musicians and called them HYPOCRITES. How was that? Look at my more complicated (includes Scripture) diatribe under David Faust. Jesus also identified the trumpet IN the synagogue as the mark of a Hypocrite. He did many more ACTED PARABLES which He said, HID the truth from the Religious operatives.

Note the fairly STRAIGHT FORWARD flow (I confess to confusing by quoting Scripture and history they twist). HERE IS THE STRAIGHT SCOOP:

David Faust asserts: "Jesus did not address the instrumental issue."

I QUOTE Jesus who Quotes Isaiah and Ezekiel to IDENTIFY and define HYPOCRITES. These were slick speakers (for hire), singers and instrument players.

First, I quote Isaiah who was understood by Jesus, Paul and many of the historic scholars of note but probably no preacher has ever read it (I dogmatize: you can refute me)

ALL mouth religion is HYPOCRITICAL because SPIRITUAL worship is in the PLACE of the human spirit. That leaves church (Paul called it SYNAGOGUE) as A SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE as clearly defined in the NOT music passages.

If these false teachers SELL TICKETS to twist all known evidence with the MOTIVE of introducing instruments KNOWING that they will deliberately sow discord; and IF they tell you that the Holy Spirit told them to contradict all who went before them; and If I (not corrupting the Word by selling at retail) post BIBLICAL TEXTS and THOSE scholars they TWIST; and others call that RANTING then it proves Jesus warning that "doctors of the Law take away the key to knowledge."

I rantingly assert that they TWIST all known evidence.
I arrogantly quote THEM and then quote the Bible and the scholars they twist.
YOU, need to take the INITIATIVE to sort out the TRUTH from the LIES.
I don't get paid so you cannot intimidate me.
Ken, you stated above "The Church of Christ scholars do NOT understand that the Church of Christ was never part of the Disciples Denomination -- including the later secting of the Christian Church -- when they refused to be COUNTED in the 1906 census."

Truth of the matter is the Church of Christ and Disciples of Christ and Independent Christian Churches were all originally part of the Stone-Campbell movement that began in 1832. While you are close to being correct some of the Church of Christ did not want to be counted in the census after 1907. The actual event that began the split was not music. It was in 1895 at the Texas State Convention in Gainesville, Tx where the Missionary Society threw a black tie party and the some of the southern churches were upset at the lack of support and funds to their churches and how the missionary society could throw extravagant parties.

There are many history books out on this subject and you are completely misinformed. I am not here to argue theology or ideologies with you, but it would help if you knew actual history if you are going to use it in your arguments.

I am not writing this to make you upset or look bad, I just want to help inform you.

Remember: in Essentials unity, in non-essentials, liberty and in all things charity!

Church HIstorian in Training

Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

April 6th, 2012, 1:52 am #19

Unity existed among many groups on the wild frontier but there was never "fellowship" which means I endorse you, I assemble with you and I support you. The 1832 handshake was a few handshakes where John Smith recorded the "agreement" which would permit agreement on an intellectual level. The "contract" the few preachers with no denominational authority signed was a statement perfectly in agreement with what became Churches of Christ. The ink was not dry before the Disciples began violating it.

This arrogance by a few preachers was divisive for the masses of preachers who resented the claim--as Campbell resented-- of Stone's boasting that "the Reformers have come over to us."

Those who became The Church of Christ repudiated the agreement and by 1837 Alexander Campbell ridiculed any kind of unity based on a handshake when the Stoneites had absolutely nothing in common with the Campbellites: Stone repudiated the Atonement, and did not believe that baptism was necessary at that time. Since what was "witchcraft" at Cane Ridge gave birth to the Christian movement which bonded more with the Methodist including the denominational structure of ordaining preachers and the "shouting methodist" exercise as an ACT of worship. ... .html.html

It is reasonable to say that all of the so-called Stone-Campbell Movement are liars about this issue: especially the Lunenburg letters.

the lady from Lunenburg to write the editor of the Harbinger is in an article entitled "Letters to England-No. 1," which was published in the June, 1837,

You have never read the Lunenburg correspondence. To Campbell a "c"hristian was one who lived according to Christian principles. We speak of a "c"hristian nation. However, a "C"hristian is ONLY one who has obeyed the gospel.

I. With all despatch, then, I hasten to show that I have neither conceded nor surrendered any thing for which I ever contended; but that on the contrary, the opinion now expressed, whether true or false, is one that I have always avowed.

(Footnote in original reads: It is with us as old as baptism for the remission of sins,
and this is at least as old as the "Christian Baptist." Read the first two numbers of that work.)

1. Let me ask, in the first place, what could mean all that we have written upon the union of Christians on apostolic grounds,
had we taught that all Christians in the world
were already united in our own community?

2. And in the second place, why should we so often have quoted and applied to apostate Christendom what the Spirit saith to saints in
Babylon--"Come out of her, my people, that you partake not of her sins,
and that you receive not of her plagues"--
had we imagined that the Lord had no people beyond the pale of our communion!

3. But let him that yet doubts, read the following passages from the Christian Baptist, April, 1825:--

"I have no idea of seeing, nor wish to see, the sects unite in one grand army.
This would be dangerous to our liberties and laws. For this the Saviour did not pray.
It is only the disciples dispersed among them
that reason and benevolence would call out of them,
"&c. &c. This looks very like our present opinion of Christians among the sects!!!
2d ed. Bethany, p. 85.

4. Again, speaking of purity of speech in order to the union of Christians, we say,

"None of you [Christians] have ever yet attempted to show
how Christians can be united on your principles.

You have often showed how they may be divided, and how each party may hold its own,
but while you pray for the visible unity of the Disciples,
and advocate their visible disunity, we cannot understand you."
March, 1837, vol. 4.

The 1960 Census which was, I believe, the first, saw the Disciples / Christian Churches attempting to do a body count including the Churches of Christ in Nashville. The Census taker knew this was utterly false and consulted Lipscomb who just said NO to the body snatchers.

The Disciples-Christian churches already had a Denominational Movement underway and needed the body count to send them vast sums of money.

As far as the PRESENT CLAIM by the Christian Churches you have to grasp that they did not begin to hold separate denominational meetings until 1927 and were still counted as Disciples unto THEY were removed from the census as late as 1971. That was the time when Garrett etal began to "cut out" Churches of Christ where "unity" meant you AFFIRM instruments or you CONFORM and then we can have unity.

Now why would people fall for the NACC effort at "unity" and claiming that Churches of Christ were legalistic sectarians when the Christian Church did not BEGIN to SECT out of the Disciples until 1927?

When Churches of Christ denied that they had ever been "joined" even fraternally since the introduction of instruments among the Disciples which split that group. At that time the Disciples/Christian Churches issued a Centennial edition of the Declaration and Address which should prove to anyone that Churches of Christ could not be counted on.
Last edited by Ken.Sublett on April 6th, 2012, 2:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

April 6th, 2012, 4:14 pm #20 ... Union.html

This is the "pre fabled union" in 1831: the denial of any kind of "union" in the above Lunenburg quote was in 1837. Without passing judgment one way or another, the Reformers saw the Disciples as just another denomination, and saw Barton W. Stone bent on forming a NEW INCLUSIVE denomination. Garrison proposed to include ALL OF CHRISTENDOM. That is why the Disciples have reached a dead end.

Historians should understand the difference between Mythological History and True History.
Among the Greeks it was widely taught that rhetoricians, poets and music must not be permitted to write about true history. It was ok to lie about history when entertaining (only) but never in the schools or called assemblies (ekklesia).

And I believe that is especially true about those tasked to REwrite the history of groups always known as The Church of Christ in every period. The Catholics thought of them as universal (the one true church) but they called themselves The Church of Christ because Jesus of Nazareth "whom God made to be both Lord and Christ" purchased it and is the head of His own kingdom. That kingdom has no other task but to "use one mind and one mouth" to teach "that which is written for our learning." The Laded Burden outlaws all "spiritual anxiety created by religious ceremonialism." Paul used the Greek ARESKOS or Self-pleasure or Latin Placeo which outlaws the same thing clearly defined in the literature as "rhetoric, singing, instruments or drama." Jesus would call them hypocritic arts by pointing to Isaial 6 and Ezekiel 33.

The modern writers of Encyclopedias (smile) and text books have never read the original resources but as in ALL scholarly settings rest on the textbooks YOU must follow if YOU intend to get a passing grade. We will show yoou that Richard Hughes has led many simpletons down the path by false teaching about Alexander Campbell and the "apocalyptic tradition." The name MH in fact was to repudiate ALL millennial speculations and to refute the Disciples organization to "save all of the Jews to make it possible for Jesus to return." They fell for the Millerite (SDA) predictions: the Jews didn't want to get saved--thank you very much--and Jesus didn't return. However, it proved the radical separation of the Disciples and Reformers whose churches called themselves churches of Christ. At one time the Stone people called themselves CHRISTIANS and the Campbell disciples called themselves DISCIPLES. Of course a baptized believer is a DISCIPLE and is called a CHRISTIAN but the body bears the name of Christ. Disciples don't DO worship services: they go to BIBLE CLASS.

I have made it my way-past-retirement task to make these ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS from Clay Tablets onward available for anyone wanting to get TRUE HISTORY from the writers mouth--and not get fleeced so you can get a still-bleeding sheep skin. I don't DO dogma and don't join the ANTICHRISTS in their trinitarian worship.
Last edited by Ken.Sublett on April 6th, 2012, 4:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.