Keith D. Stanglin P.hd: Harding weaving about Instrumental Music

Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

November 3rd, 2012, 3:42 am #21

I speak for most if not ALL Churches of Christ before young preachers started listening to professors working really hard to join the tribe of theologians.

I even speak for Augustine, like the original Nicean Creed, never spoke of the Spirit as a person or a member of the Godhead.

Therefore, the Spirit is personified with the use of personal pronouns but not because He is a Person separated from full Deity. Rather, as my spirit groans within me and argues with me (Roman 7, Romans 8), God's invisible Spirit is personified because it belongs to Him. Furthermore, this is a common way of "humanizing" even inanimate objects:

Paul Tillich wrote:

"The Spirit is sometimes personified in the Bible, as in John 16:7-8, and this has led many to believe that it is a person. They do so because they do not take into account an idiom of the original Greek language. In Greek, inanimate objects which in English would be couched in the neuter gender, are given a masculine or feminine gender, if those objects are identified with any particular individual. ' For example, a chair is described as "it" in English, because it is neuter, being neither masculine nor feminine. But in Greek that chair can be identified with its owner. If it belongs to me, the chair is described as he; if it belongs to my wife, as she.


A common book on hermeneutics in churches of Christ writes:

"For this reason, the Holy Spirit has frequently been personified in Scripture, identifying it with God, and so it is personified as he.

"However, if the Holy Spirit were actually a person it should be rendered as he in every place where the word is referred to; but it is not. It is sometimes rendered in the neuter. In Romans 8:16, Paul writes: "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit." The neuter, itself is used, and this is in accord with the Greek text, as any Greek scholar will acknowledge.

"To personify inanimate objects is normal in Scripture. Wisdom is represented as a woman (Proverbs 9:1), mammon is described as a friend (Luke 16:9), sin is personified as a slave-owner (Romans 6:16), the Holy Spirit as a comforter (John 14:26), expressing the spirit of Truth. So Micah declared: "I am full of power by the spirit of the Lord" (Micah 3:8). The prophets were moved by the spirit to record the Scriptures (Nehemiah 9:20; 2 Peter 1:21), and God used the same means to speak to Israel through His Son (Hebrews 1: 1). For the rest of the quote Click Here.

"Personification.-- This is a figure of speech by which inanimate beings are spoken of as animated, or endowed with life and volition; animals are endowed with feelings akin to those of men.

"This is well suited to an imaginary condition of mind, and therefore frequently employed in Hebrew Scriptures. Indeed, it is now a staple in the market of communication, and we use it so commonly ourselves that whe have almost ceasted to speak of it as a figure of speech." (Prof. D. R. Dungan, Hermeneutics, p. 324, Gospel Light Publishing)


> "For God is rational (spiritual), and Reason was first in Him; and so all things were from Himself. This Reason is His own Thought (or Consciousness) which the Greeks call logos, by which term we also designate Word or Discourse and therefore it is now usual with our people, owing to the mere simple interpretation of the term, to say that the Word was in the beginning with God; although it would be more suitable to regard Reason as the more ancient; because God had not Word from the beginning, but He had Reason even before the beginning; because also Word itself consists of Reason, which it thus proves to have been the prior existence as being its own substance.... He became also the Son of God, and was begotten when He proceeded forth from Him (Tertullian from chs. 5,7).

http://www.piney.com/HsBsAcWs.html

> "Again--Some will say, What does the expression Holy Spirit mean?

Well, in scripture it stands first for God the Holy Spirit,

and secondly for the holy mind or spirit of a believer-

-for illustration, take Peter's words to Ananias, "Why has Satan tempted you to lie to the Holy Spirit; you have not lied to men, but to God," (the Holy Spirit.) And the Saviour says, How much more will your heavenly Father give a holy spirit (as it should be translated) to those that ask him. Again--Praying in a holy spirit. Again--Paul says he approved himself God's servant "by knowledge, by long sufferings, by kindness, by a holy spirit'" by a mind innocent of the love of gain, or commerce, or sensuality. Walter Scott Early Restoration Movement leader.
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November 3rd, 2012, 4:35 am #22

Below is a version of the song that many are repeating regularly at the "innovative" churches.
Why would God ever want to "take not thy Holy Spirit from me"????
Or "I'll never do anything without your leading Spirit, Lord".
"Holy Ghost, fall down on me."
This is pure Pentecostal.
Now read:


Lyrics to Holy Ghost :

[Chorus:]
Holy Ghost fall down on me
Let your spirit fall down on me [x2]

[Verse 1:]
Create in me a new heart oh God
And renew a right spirit within me
Cast me not away from thy presence oh God
Take not thy Holy Spirit from me

[Chorus]

[Verse 2:]
Holy Spirit help me to walk right
Talk right, live right
Help me to be right
I'll never do anything without
Your leading spirit, Holy Spirit

[Bridge:]
Cast me not from thy presence oh Lord
Take not your spirit
Take not your spirit from me [x3]
Holy Ghost fall down Lord fall on me
Holy ghost fall down Lord fall on me...

[Vamp:]
Me
I need you to fall fresh on me
Send a fresh wind
Let it fall on me
I need you to fall on me
A fresh wind, a new touch
Oh, I need you to reign down your presence on me
Oh, me I need a touch from Thee
Fall fresh on me
Drench me in your Spirit Oh...

[ These are Holy Ghost Lyrics onhttp://www.lyricsmania.com/ ]
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November 3rd, 2012, 1:56 pm #23

The songs in the innovative churches provide a clue to what is going on.

There is a clear preference for a foreordained "sovereignty" of God. This is the opposite of free will, which is in the traditional stance of Churches of Christ (also of Christian Churches and Disciples of Christ)--I speak broadly.

The idea of grace is especially important to the "sovereignty" innovators since it fits right in, with the Holy Spirit "falling down" and giving grace, without man or woman having to do a "whisper."
Jimmy Swaggart says it best for these "disciples" when he told the story of a derelict man who was driving down the highway and ran into a strong wall. His father, who was a religious man, worried about the soul of his son, until the night he dreamed that he saw his son in heaven. The son said in this dream "Daddy, when I realized in that last split second before I did, I prayed, "Jesus Christ, I believe in you. Save me." This is typical death bed repentance, and although I don't want to mock these people, this removes any responsibility for living a high-performance Christian life.

The statement from Christ's Sermon on the Mount is not "where your heart is there will be your treasure also" but "where your treasure is there will be your heart also." Good works are an assurance that our faith is genuine. Fear of death does not constitute the type of saving faith of which James speaks.

I think that we have to bring in the view of elders again, who in "overseeing" the local congregation, they are beset by a number of strains of thought, and are beyond their "pay grade" in a way, with numerous ideas coming their way, and with stresses between elders, and genuine disagreement within, the carriers of modification have a free shot at the "old traditions."

This places additional stresses on the preacher, who is made dizzy by the events taking place about him. Some preachers are driven by desire of having a "mega-church" and so want to be popular in the community; other preachers would like to maintain the basic old doctrines; others are just arms for the church programs. All in all, we are convinced that the Scriptures themselves are placed on the back burner, and the uniqueness of the Churches of Christ in history begins to be lost. The church then becomes like the "nations about them." Little influence then emanates from the church to the larger society, and eventually the Churches of Christ walk in lock-step with the decaying culture.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

November 3rd, 2012, 3:01 pm #24

You are correct: there is no "Sovereign" concept in the Bible. It is a fact that God's will WILL be carried out. Sovereign means that God HAS free will whereas if God randomly picked some to heaven and some to hell from eternity past, then the Calvinist (LU) insist that God CANNOT change His Mind.

turannos
I. an absolute sovereign , unlimited by law or constitution,
2. in a wider sense, the tyrant's son, or any member of his family, Soph.:--so, hê turannos was both the queen herself or a princess,
II. turannos, on, as adj. kingly, royal, Trag.
2. imperious, despotic, Thuc.; turanna


They are always so cock sure that THEY are the "chosen" ones:

The Jews thought that they were predestined: Paul in Romans 10 and 1 Cor 10 gives the example of the musical idolatry at Mount Sinai as PROOF of their folly:

1Corinthians 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Corinthians 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Corinthians 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
1Corinthians 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
1Corinthians 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

1Corinthians 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. [Musical idolatry of the Egyptian triad represented by the golden calveS

"The triumphal hymn of Moses had unquestionably a religious character about it; but the employment of music in religious services, though idolatrous, is more distinctly marked in the festivities which attended the erection of the golden calf." (Smith's Bible Dictionary, Music, p. 589).

1Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: [PATTERN] and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
1Corinthians
10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

So instrumental music, women worship leaders and a sense of PREDESTINATION is the MARK that they are NOT chosen to be saved.

Last edited by Ken.Sublett on November 3rd, 2012, 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

November 3rd, 2012, 5:03 pm #25

Below is a version of the song that many are repeating regularly at the "innovative" churches.
Why would God ever want to "take not thy Holy Spirit from me"????
Or "I'll never do anything without your leading Spirit, Lord".
"Holy Ghost, fall down on me."
This is pure Pentecostal.
Now read:


Lyrics to Holy Ghost :

[Chorus:]
Holy Ghost fall down on me
Let your spirit fall down on me [x2]

[Verse 1:]
Create in me a new heart oh God
And renew a right spirit within me
Cast me not away from thy presence oh God
Take not thy Holy Spirit from me

[Chorus]

[Verse 2:]
Holy Spirit help me to walk right
Talk right, live right
Help me to be right
I'll never do anything without
Your leading spirit, Holy Spirit

[Bridge:]
Cast me not from thy presence oh Lord
Take not your spirit
Take not your spirit from me [x3]
Holy Ghost fall down Lord fall on me
Holy ghost fall down Lord fall on me...

[Vamp:]
Me
I need you to fall fresh on me
Send a fresh wind
Let it fall on me
I need you to fall on me
A fresh wind, a new touch
Oh, I need you to reign down your presence on me
Oh, me I need a touch from Thee
Fall fresh on me
Drench me in your Spirit Oh...

[ These are Holy Ghost Lyrics onhttp://www.lyricsmania.com/ ]
I am certain that these people have never been disciples of Psalm 51

Cast me not from thy presence oh Lord
Take not your spirit
Take not your spirit from me [x3]
Holy Ghost fall down Lord fall on me
Holy ghost fall down Lord fall on me...


David was not a wimpy-singy-fella:

Psa 51:1 HAVE mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness:according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out MINE transgressions.

Psa 51:2Wash me throughly from MINE iniquity, and cleanse me from MY sin.
Psa 51:3 For I acknowledge MY transgressions: and MY sin is ever before me.

David "judged" God's RIGHT to punish:

Psa 51:4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight:
.....that thou mightest be justified [MORALLY RIGHT] when thou speakest,
.....and be clear when thou judgest [PUNISH]. Psa 51:4

Psa 51:7 Purge me with hyssop, [purify]
.....and I shall be clean:
.....wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

Heb. 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith,
<font color="#FFFFFF">.....
having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience,
.....and our bodies washed with pure water.


AFTER Confession and Washing from his UNHOLY SPIRIT David would have a clean heart, a right spirit, A holy spirit and a free spirit. If God removed HIS Spirit then David would be dead. David says nothing about a "spirit person" falling on him: that would sound a little gender confused.

We are baptized FOR the remission of sins from OUR Spirit: therefore the Gift is that we now have "A" holy spirit.
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November 4th, 2012, 7:15 pm #26

Have you ever noticed that the melodies of these new songs are such that it is difficult to carry a tune.

Striking is that "you", "your", "Father", "Son", "Holy Spirit" and such words referring to the divine are a few notes higher than the words around them.

Also "me", "my", "our", and "I" are a few notes lower than the notes around them.

Am I just imagining this?

What is the explanation, if this is the case?

Could it be that the writers are suggesting that Christians are but "dirty rags."

Or that God has a condescending view of humanity? Does he? That he really despises them?

Is there a theological bias in the melody as well as in the words of the songs?
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

November 4th, 2012, 7:32 pm #27

That's one for B or Donnie:

It may be that the new theology is based on the irrational: doesn't need to make sense.

Or it may be because they are often written by giddy, girlish males and just blurt out their aspirations to make love to God (Jeff walling Daring to Dance with God.)

Or it may be a proof of Strong Delusions inflicted by God on those who do not love the truth.

Or it may be because within their merry brotherhood, they know that anything they sing in Jazzy (that f word) will be licked up by their groupies. The New Wineskins concept worships Dionysus, Bacchus etal and maybe they have been initiated into the "gay brotherhood" and have become the perfected and we mortals just are not supposed to know the secrets of the mysteries. Mysteries is from music which always meant to "make the lambs dumb before the slaughter." When Jesus called the MEN just children piping wanting everyone to lament or sing and dance, this was a repudiation of those men clustering around hoping John wore SOFT clothing.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

November 4th, 2012, 7:37 pm #28

Wayne Jackson Jesus in the form of God.

http://www.piney.com/Wayne.Jackson.Jesu ... f.God.html

The Spirit OF Christ defined the meaning of GOD: nothing which the New Testament writers in any way disturbs the facts:



Keith D. Stanglin at Harding seems to follow the "navigating the winds of change scheme."

http://www.piney.com/Keith.D.Stanglin.H ... Music.html

He weaves back and forth by defending 'a cappella' and then weaves to the Instrumental Worship groups denying that there is any command against instruments.

This is material supplied with an "exam" and it is pretty certain that no student is going to challenge his wavering views. He endorses the Stone-Campbell Movement which seeks UNITY but fails to mention that this is the old Leroy Garrett folly begun just after the NACC finally got delisted from the Disciples in 1971.

Mark E. Powell at Harding Graduate School will present a Seminar on the TRINITY.

http://www.piney.com/Mark.E.Powell.Semi ... inity.html

My first part of the review will be looking at the PROOF TEXTS from "scholarly" published world and then quote the ACTUAL church father to prove that they did not think of a trinity.

There is GOD and God has a SPIRIT or WISDOM or breath and when He speaks wordS those spoken wordS are always called the preexisting SON of God. He builds on the Foundation of John Mark hicks the major sowing of discord in the community church idea and musical worship teams


He uses his co-conspirator John Mark Hicks and a host of books on the Trinity. I



David was an unwitting prophet in some Messianic Psalms. Psalm 51 contrary to original sin is prophetic of Baptism in the kingdom of the Spiritual kingdom.

http://www.piney.com/Psalm.51.conceived.in.sin.html

Psalm 51 also defines the Spirit as OUR spirit made right, just and holly.


Wayne Jackson is one of many "conservatives" who have accepted the idea that the Spirit OF Christ is another "person" and is therefore to be worshipped.

Of course, there is only one God the Father who is to be worshipped. Unfortunately, those who believe in the Holy Spirit often believe that "he" is speaking to or through them. They love to boast about keeping a set of rules proven to be superior to other people's set of rules. That is because everyone can hear the Spirit making sure that what they think is what God thinks.

This is a quick review:

http://www.piney.com/Wayne.Jackson.Is.H ... rship.html

To be continued.
The BOOK of Psalms contains several forms of literature: Psalm 51 seems prophetic and the "spirit" they want on top is NOT A god person such as sophia (MOTHER of Zoe).

Psalm 51 obliterated by making it into a silly song affirms what we have said that at baptism God gives us the gift of A holy spirit or REgenerates our UNholy spirit.

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November 5th, 2012, 2:35 pm #29

Wayne Jackson Jesus in the form of God.

http://www.piney.com/Wayne.Jackson.Jesu ... f.God.html

The Spirit OF Christ defined the meaning of GOD: nothing which the New Testament writers in any way disturbs the facts:



Keith D. Stanglin at Harding seems to follow the "navigating the winds of change scheme."

http://www.piney.com/Keith.D.Stanglin.H ... Music.html

He weaves back and forth by defending 'a cappella' and then weaves to the Instrumental Worship groups denying that there is any command against instruments.

This is material supplied with an "exam" and it is pretty certain that no student is going to challenge his wavering views. He endorses the Stone-Campbell Movement which seeks UNITY but fails to mention that this is the old Leroy Garrett folly begun just after the NACC finally got delisted from the Disciples in 1971.

Mark E. Powell at Harding Graduate School will present a Seminar on the TRINITY.

http://www.piney.com/Mark.E.Powell.Semi ... inity.html

My first part of the review will be looking at the PROOF TEXTS from "scholarly" published world and then quote the ACTUAL church father to prove that they did not think of a trinity.

There is GOD and God has a SPIRIT or WISDOM or breath and when He speaks wordS those spoken wordS are always called the preexisting SON of God. He builds on the Foundation of John Mark hicks the major sowing of discord in the community church idea and musical worship teams


He uses his co-conspirator John Mark Hicks and a host of books on the Trinity. I



David was an unwitting prophet in some Messianic Psalms. Psalm 51 contrary to original sin is prophetic of Baptism in the kingdom of the Spiritual kingdom.

http://www.piney.com/Psalm.51.conceived.in.sin.html

Psalm 51 also defines the Spirit as OUR spirit made right, just and holly.


Wayne Jackson is one of many "conservatives" who have accepted the idea that the Spirit OF Christ is another "person" and is therefore to be worshipped.

Of course, there is only one God the Father who is to be worshipped. Unfortunately, those who believe in the Holy Spirit often believe that "he" is speaking to or through them. They love to boast about keeping a set of rules proven to be superior to other people's set of rules. That is because everyone can hear the Spirit making sure that what they think is what God thinks.

This is a quick review:

http://www.piney.com/Wayne.Jackson.Is.H ... rship.html

To be continued.
Acts 7
51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

November 5th, 2012, 9:30 pm #30

Resisting the Spirit is resisting the Word of God given by the Spirit OF Christ through the prophets.

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