John
John

December 17th, 2003, 4:10 pm #11

Is this the one that preaces at Otter Creek in Nashville or is it his father? Thanks.
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

December 18th, 2003, 11:47 am #12

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(Source: http://www.newleafbooks.org/BOOKS/C/church_flies.html)

Tim Woodroof is a third generation preacher in Churches of Christ. He has ministered with congregations in Nebraska, Oregon, and Tennessee. He presently preaches for the Otter Creek Church of Christ in Nashville. He is also the author of Walk This Way (1999), a study of the Sermon on the Mount.
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Otter Creek Church of Christ
5253 Granny White Pike
Nashville, Tennessee 37220 United States
E-mail Address: ottrcrk.aol.com
Web Site Address: http://www.ottercreek.org
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THINGS YOU MUST KNOW ABOUT “A Church That Flies” [Otter Creek] and
Tim Woodroof’s Message: A New Call to Restoration in the Churches of Christ

(Source: http://www.ottercreek.org)
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MINISTRY TEAM

Vicki Atnip Administrative Assistant for the Youth & Children's Ministries
Melanie Brown, Associate Children's Minister
Janet Crothers, Children's Minister
Kay Duncan, Bookkeeper
Trina Gehl, Communications Coordinator
Scott Owings, Minister of Spiritual Formation
Emma Phillips, Administrative Assistant
Lee Ann Rice, Church Administrator
David Rubio, Youth Minister
Steve Sherman, Missionary in Residence
Brandon Scott Thomas, Music Minister
Tim Woodroof, Senior Minister

Major Responsibilities of the Music Minister

• Leading the Body in worship that is designed to glorify Jesus, & be transformative for the Church
• Serving the 60+ people involved in the music ministry in a pastoral nature by leading, encouraging, and equipping
• Planning for major events (musicals, concerts, plays) surrounding Christmas & Easter
• Organizing and executing our Summer Life Series. This includes special speakers, concerts, family event nights & evenings highlighting VBS & Camp
• Encouraging a broader spectrum of Churches and the community through the ZOE Worship ministry (National and local seminars and worship recordings)


A word from Brandon ... It's that excitement that fuels me to go and share on a more national level with ZOE.



Major Responsibilities of the Senior Minister

• Ministers the Word through preaching, teaching, and writing
• Leads the Ministry Team to encourage focused, effective efforts
• Works with elders on visioning and planning
• Facilitates communication and problem-solving with congregation
• Counsels on spiritual, marital, and pre-marital issues
• Encourages a wider range of Christians through speaking, writing, and holding conferences


A word from Tim ... The validity of my wider work (writing, speaking) is rooted in an authentic ministry here at Otter Creek.

ELDERS

[The Senior Minister and the Ministry Team “must increase” and we, the elders, “must decrease.” There is a web page for each of the ministry team members with pictures and detailed job specifications and other information. There is not a single page for any or all of us, the elders of the congregation—some web formatting of the Change Movement era that is similar to those of a number of transformed churches of Christ. We work with humility behind the scenes. Hopefully, one of these days, we’ll occupy even half of a page that lists all the elders’ names—even without pictures and telephone numbers and e-mail addresses. (by Donnie Cruz)]
Last edited by ConcernedMembers on December 18th, 2003, 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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John
John

December 18th, 2003, 1:43 pm #13

From what I can see from Mr. Waddey's review adn the comments from the Otter Creek Church of Christ website is that this is the kind of church that Madison wants to turn into.

I guess my question is this, why doesn't Otter Creek get as much attention as Woodmont Hills?
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John Waddey
John Waddey

December 28th, 2003, 6:19 am #14

KEEPING ABREAST: REVIEWS OF BOOKS AND MATERIALS RELATING TO THE CHANGE MOVEMENT


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Ideas are spread by word of mouth or by print or electronic media. Those determined to change churches of Christ into a denomination of their own liking are issuing a steady stream of books promoting their views. Many immature and unsuspecting souls will be influenced by them. The author of the following reviews has assumed the unpleasant task of reading and evaluating all the books being circulated by promoters of change. He also makes a point of reading, reviewing and recommending those books and tracts that do a good job of responding to the agents of change and promoting the Master's message. Hopefully this page will be a useful resource for those desiring helpful information on this troublesome movement.
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To share your ideas, to ask additional questions or to recommend other books for review, email the author @ [url=mailto:JOHNWADDEY@aol.com]JOHNWADDEY@aol.com[/url].
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<font size=“+2”>VOICES OF CONCERN WERE VOICES OF CHANGE</font>

Forty years ago a diabolic attack on the Lord's church was published under the title Voices of Concern. The editor of the volume was Robert Meyers, then minister of the Riverside Church of Christ in Wichita, KA. The contributing authors were men and women once connected with the Church of Christ, who had separated from it. It was published and distributed by Carl Ketcherside's Mission Messenger of St. Louis. The 17 articles ranged from bitter tirades against the church, her message and her people by those who had rejected the Scripture as their authority, to the pitiful meanderings of the ignorant and confused. Since there was a general pattern observable in all of the writings, the following review as applicable to all.


THE MESSAGE OF THE CONTRIBUTORS CONSIDERED
<ol>[*]They were convinced that the Church of Christ is thoroughly legalistic. "...the object of Church of Christ concern is all too often a God of legalism rather than a God of love..." (Charles Warren, p. 200). "The scriptures were ...not written to be complete descriptions of anything or blue prints" (p. 39). "Why should the church of the twentieth century want to be like the one of the first? (p. 40). "This system (legalism j.w.) is a code of requirement, or what is often called "the plan of salvation" (p. 41). "Legalism sees sin as a violation of the written code" (p. 41). (All the above quotes are from J. P. Sanders). What he really means is, he objects to the command, "if any many speak, let him speak as the oracles of God" (I Pet. 4:11). Also he resents the fact that "sin is the transgression of the law" (I John 3:4).

[*]They rejected the Bible as the verbally inspired Word of God. Nine of them expressed their loss of confidence in the Bible as a work of divine perfection. "I came to realize that rather than making the Bible alive, the verbal inspiration theory was killing the message of the Bible" (Logan Fox, p. 19). Even after his loss of faith, Bro. Fox continued to circulate among our churches.

[*]They felt that, "The Church of Christ should admit the reality of their denominational status and humbly confess the possibility that they might be wrong in belief and practice" (Ralph V. Graham, p. 140).

[*]They insisted that we should give up the idea of trying to restore New Testament Christianity. "Restorationism as advocated by the Churches of Christ is unhealthy...as a way of life." "Restorationism is irrelevant to man's needs" (Graham, p. 139).

[*]They argued that we should cease to object to the use of instrumental music in worship. According to them, " while it is most likely that the first church did not use instruments of music in their worship, (they are) not convinced on that account that it is wrong" (Wm. Reedy, p. 241).

[*]They insisted that the Church of Christ inhibited their intellectual inclinations. "The free man questions, tries, tests. He acknowledges no authority to which he does not freely consent as internalized truth. He is subject to no control above his own conscience. He does not obey because it is commanded, but because it is the way of truth and wisdom" (N. L. Parks, p. 80-81). "I did not have the feeling of personal security to enable me to speak freely of my doubts and growing disbeliefs" (Cecil Franklin), p. 78).

[*]They resented being pressured for their changing attitudes. "Looking back, I can see clearly how my studies, working experiences and association with believers of different denominations led me...into a ...broader Christian commitment than the restricted liberty afforded me in the Churches of Christ. Being quite outspoken in my preaching, talk, and writings, I found the restrictions placed on my freedom of expression intolerably frustrating. I and my congregation became subjected to the West Berlin type of isolation because of my views." (Graham, p. 129-130).

[*]They wanted to stay and help us see and accept their new found light, and were sad that they could not do so. "I have felt that if I am right and they are wrong, then instead of leaving them, I should share with them what I believe" (Fox. p. 25). "This book pleads with the Church of Christ to spare such men the agony of separation by creating an atmosphere in which independent minds may feel at home" (Meyers, p. 2).

[*]According to them, we should join the movement for ecumenical unity. "They should be willing to let consensus of rational opinion of all Christian scholars of whatever church and age be the decisive factor in matters of interpreting the Bible" (Graham, p. 141).

[*]They wanted us to believe they all love us and sincerely want to save us from our self-destruction. "I have no intention of leaving them so long as one of the churches is free enough to hear such compassionate strictures as fill the pages of this book" (Meyers, p. 262). Their hope was that this book would "so alter conditions that no other volume of this kind would ever need be written." (back dust cover). "Viewed sociologically or scripturally, the Church of Christ is not the church of Christ. Its members in a sense are neither ‘Christian only' nor ‘the only Christians'" (Parks, p. 84). "The church of Christ appears then as a lower middle class phenomenon ‘on the make' at the socio-economic level" (Parks p. 73).

[*]We should be frightened because, according to them, almost all of our young intellectuals were leaving us and thousands of our members were clamoring for a change. "Many in the church of Christ are completely unaware of how many intelligent, compassionate Christian men and women have departed from them in search of freedom from dogma" (Meyers, p. 2). "Thousands are restless and dissatisfied with the aridity of exclusivism and authoritarianism" (Meyers, p. 3).

[*]We were already suffering from an incurable disease and they predicted we would soon be completely out of business. "There are many indications that the Church of Christ is showing signs of decadence and that it is running a marathon race with catastrophe...there is little manifest interest by those from without" (Carl Etter, p. 110). Etter's prediction was originally made in 1945. "Our system has had its day and we are even now, poised between two worlds" (Meyers, p. 261).

[*]They hoped that we would not seek to answer their charges, but accept them and adjust accordingly. "Those who read the contributions with a spirit of retaliation will miss its very tenor and mistake its real purpose" (back dust cover).
[/list]
OUR REACTION TO VOICES OF CONCERN

Considering the above, those familiar with God's word and loyal to it would agree that Voices of Concern are Voices of Apostasy! These people are apostates, like Judas who betrayed Christ; like Phygellus and Hermogenes who turned away from the apostle; like Demas who forsook Paul, like Hymenaeus and Alexander who blasphemed; like Hymenaeus and Philetus, men who concerning the truth have erred...whose words eat like gangrene; and a host of others who went astray down through the years.

"They went out from us, but they were not of us: for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but they went out that they might be made manifest that they all are not of us" (I John 2:19). We should not be overly concerned because apostates have criticisms to make of the Lord's church.

Can we really expect them to have a favorable attitude towards that which have rejected? A guilty conscience compels them to discredit the church and its ministers, to somehow justify themselves and ease their sense of shame. Instead of being a great tragedy that they left us, we are much better off that they did. "For there must be factions among you that they that are approved may be made manifest among you" (I Cor. 11:19). Now we see their true colors! We should be most concerned about those who are still among us as traitors and subversives (Acts 20:29-31).

In reading the book, it is obvious that almost all of the contributors lost their faith in the Bible as the inspired Word of God and absolute authority in Christianity. This happened before their exodus. Nine of the seventeen writers frankly states or implied their rejection of this fundamental doctrine. This is well illustrated in their complaints and charges. Virtually none of them are substantiated by scriptural proof. Few Biblical reference adorns the pages of this book. I note some 28 references or allusions in its 263 pages.

Like the sectarians of the past, they had a burning, unyielding desire to make the church of Christ into a denomination such as they had gone into. Misery loves company.

Their smug assurance that the church of Christ, as it had existed for the last 200 years, was finished was humorous. Especially since in the same year in which their book was published, a news release announced that the Church of Christ was the fastest growing body in the country. No doubt there were bitter tears when they were confronted with this information. One is led to wonder how a poor, ignorant, legalistic bunch, as they describe us, managed to effect such a thing?

Editor Meyers claimed to be a minister of the Church of Christ. His production and encouragement of this diabolic attack on the Lord's church, the inspiration of the Bible and the doctrine of Christ marked him as one who bid them Godspeed and was thus a partaker of their evil deeds (II John 11). He was a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Carl Ketcherside's endorsement and praise of this book pointed out his true inclination. He desired to stay among us and wear the same name, but he had long since departed from the principle of restoring New Testament Christianity.

It is interesting to note the repeated references of the writers to their class as the most brilliant, intelligent and sensitive among us. Assuming their judgment to be right, I summon Paul to express the divine observation, "Behold your calling, brethren, that not many wise after the flesh...are called; but God choose the foolish things of the world, that he might put to shame them that are wise...that no flesh should glory before God" (I Cor. 1:26-29). No doubt this must be one of those areas where they had discovered the Bible to be errant!

Looking about, I wonder, where are the thousands who were waiting for the chance to grab their new liberal posture? Some of Carl Ketcherside's disciples went go that route. The Christian Churches were going that way. An occasional congregation among us has been subverted by men like those of this book. However, I fear their "thousands" was a wishful dream of their apostate minds.


ADMONITIONS FOR MY BRETHREN
  • We should profit from the criticisms of this book. Negative preaching must be balanced with the positive and constructive message of the gospel. Doctrinal righteousness, to the neglect of the practical righteousness, is of the same category as faith without works.
  • Cold, lifeless, ritualistic worship is not the New Testament kind. A warm and genuine spiritual love must fill our lives and worship.
  • Smugness, self-righteousness and a refusal to listen, consider and study with those who have questions should not be our practice. Sometimes we show a lack of genuine interest and concern for those who have doubts. Some of them might possibly be salvaged if someone cared enough to teach them the way of the Lord more perfectly (Acts 18:26).
  • The charge of political maneuvering and undue power being exercised by some few in the church must be frankly considered and corrected. Service must be the measure of greatness (Matt. 20:26).
  • The fact that most of these men are graduates of Christian Colleges should be sufficient warning to the administrators that there might be a serious deficiency in the methods, manner and content of their Bible education program. "Take heed to thyself and they doctrine" (I Tim. 4:16), is a timely warning.
  • Remember, many of these men have been connected with the teaching staffs of our schools, or desired to be. We must beware. We cannot allow the death shroud of "academic freedom" settle over our schools and shield those who would corrupt the faith of our students..
  • All of these men had educational experiences at state or sectarian schools of higher learning. Educational degrees are no assurance of the soundness and quality of a preacher. Even a degree from our schools is no guarantee.
    Know the man, know what he believes; first hand, before he is employed
  • Five of these men left the Lord's church for the Christian Churches. Is this not because of a weakness in teaching and attitude on our part, concerning the Christian Churches? They are not our brethren! Surely a hundred years is enough for the Lord to remove their candlestick (Rev. 2:5). They have progressed to a full denominational stance. They admit this. We have no more in common with them than we do with other Protestant bodies. There is far more between us than an instrument of music! The authors of this book seemingly never learned that lesson. We need more instruction noting the differences between us and that body of people.
  • They would liked to have stayed among us and shared their new found faith (or lack there of) with us. This should serve as a warning to the brotherhood today. Some who no longer share our faith are yet among us. They are spreading their error among our people. I "tell you even weeping that they are enemies of the cross of Christ; whose end is perdition! (Phil. 3:18-19a).
That which was a small problem 40 years ago is now a major problem. The unbelief of those voices of concern has now spread across the face of our brotherhood. Today's agents of change are the lineal descendants of those past apostates. The objections of this book are synonymous with those of our promoters of change. Now, rather than departing, they are strongly entrenched among us. Brethren, we are under siege. Turning our heads or closing our eyes will not save us. The lines must be clearly drawn. Acting now will save us the disaster of a major apostasy and schism. Weakness, procrastination and compromise will be catastrophic. Better to lose a few apostates now than many later-on.

John Waddey
Last edited by ConcernedMembers on December 28th, 2003, 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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John Waddey
John Waddey

January 4th, 2004, 5:57 am #15

KEEPING ABREAST: REVIEWS OF BOOKS AND MATERIALS RELATING TO THE CHANGE MOVEMENT


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Ideas are spread by word of mouth or by print or electronic media. Those determined to change churches of Christ into a denomination of their own liking are issuing a steady stream of books promoting their views. Many immature and unsuspecting souls will be influenced by them. The author of the following reviews has assumed the unpleasant task of reading and evaluating all the books being circulated by promoters of change. He also makes a point of reading, reviewing and recommending those books and tracts that do a good job of responding to the agents of change and promoting the Master's message. Hopefully this page will be a useful resource for those desiring helpful information on this troublesome movement.
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To share your ideas, to ask additional questions or to recommend other books for review, email the author @ [url=mailto:JOHNWADDEY@aol.com]JOHNWADDEY@aol.com[/url].
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<font size=“+2”> COME TO THE TABLE (A Review)</font>
Dr. John Mark Hicks is professor of theology at David Lipscomb University. His Ph.D. is from Westminster Theological Seminary. In this book, he has given us the latest chapter in the ever- evolving "change" theology that has captivated many of our young intellectuals. The book is the result of his "revisioning" the Lord's Supper. His thesis is, "Their supper (that of the early church) was home-based, a full meal with food and drink, and interactive fellowship at a table and characterized by joyous celebration" (p. 9). To put the book in proper context, readers should note that Dr. Hicks was active in a "Community Church" experiment while living in Memphis. Currently he is closely associated with Dr. Rubel Shelly and the Woodmont Hills Family of God in Nashville. That church served as his laboratory for testing his new concept of communion. When one has read this book he may well agree that Dr. Hicks and those of his kindred in the "change brotherhood" are much like the ancient Athenians. They "spend their time in nothing else, but either to tell or to hear some new thing" (Acts 17:21).

In general, the book is reflective of Hick's training and station as a theologian. In terms of readability and comprehension, this means that the average disciple, not trained in theological jargon, will not fathom a good 80 percent of what he says. The author is also a university professor. Readers will find his method and style dull and repetitious. For slow readers, or those loathe to read such materials, they can read his concluding chapter wherein he summarizes his twelve points for revisioning the Lord's Supper.
  • In that he repeats his thesis that the "supper is a table rather than an altar" (p. 185). He evidently has us confused with the Catholic Church for it is their priests who observe the sacrifice of the mass. Our brethren have never done so.
  • He insists that the "Lord's supper is a meal eaten at a table," not just "bread and wine" but a meal. "It is not the Lord's ‘snack' but the Lord's supper," he says (p. 186). By this he means we should have a dinner meal with the usual provisions and then commune while thus engaged in the dining experience. Some folks read, "he took a cup" and insist that the communion wine must be served in that which has a handle. Some read "table" and insist that there must be a sit down table in order to commune. Strange, unfounded thinking.
  • To Dr. Hicks, the Supper is "more than a mere symbol. It is a genuine communion with God through Jesus Christ in the Spirit. God is present at the table" (p. 187). In this he is remarkably close to Luther's notion that the emblems become the real flesh and blood of Jesus when taken.
  • The supper should be "a time for sharing, prayer and conversation about what God has done for us... (p. 188). Earlier he calls it a "Jubilee festival" (p. 63). He would have it observed with "resounding jubilation or enthusiastic outbursts" (p. 97).
  • He likes to say that we have "evoked images of blood and gore at the supper and participants feel guilty if they do not concentrate on the cross and Christ's death as they eat and drink" (p. 189). Paul, who did not have the privilege of studying at a modern seminary, taught that the Lord ordained bread and fruit of the vine to be taken in remembrance of his body and blood. In so doing we proclaim the Lord's death. He taught that eating and drinking the emblems in an unworthy manner would make us, "guilty of the body and blood of the Lord" (I Cor. 11:23-29). But Dr. Hicks believes that the supper is "focused on the resurrection of Jesus rather than the death of Christ" (p. 189).
  • According to Hicks, the church should "revision the supper as a socio-ethical witness through shared food" (p.189). He sees it as "an example of economic ethics" as "the meal served the poor in the Christian community" (p. 190) and those of the world as well. "The church...should invite the poor, the disenfranchised and the outsider to share food with them as a witness to the grace of God" (p. 190).
  • To Hicks, we should revision the supper as a moment of inclusiveness that transcends all cultural, ethnic and gender boundaries" (p. 191). Already we commune with any Christian man or woman of any race or station in life. But he means more. He wants the women to participate in the teaching and serving related to the observance of the supper. He faults those churches where "only men may serve the table" (p. 79).
  • Bro. Hicks tells us, "At the table we ...we mutually pledge to "be there" for each other...we mutually commit to give our lives for each other..." (p. 191). This is one of the many new discoveries Dr. Hicks has made regarding the Lord's Supper. But he did not find them in the Bible.
  • We should "revision the supper as the participation of all except the rebellious." By "all" he means whether they are Christians or not. Only rebellious sinners should not be invited. They need not even be believers in Christ. He reasons, "we do not exclude guests from singing, hearing the gospel or giving, and neither should we exclude them from the table" (p. 192). Per his logic even Hindus and Buddhists and others should share the holy feast just so they are not rebels to God.
  • Per this book, we should "revision the supper as a family event, including children." "They are on the journey of faith, and the supper will shape the growth and development of that faith" (p. 192). If this logic be correct, would not baptism also be a learning event to shape the growth and development of children's faith? If not why?
  • Dr. Hicks acknowledges that his plan is "difficult because it creates dissonance between ourselves and our immediate heritage. It is difficult because its implementation is fraught with logistic, practical and communal problems" (p. 194). And we would add it is fraught with Biblical problems. But such means little to the promoters of change who have already displaced Biblical authority with their own standards. It is also certain to cause strife and division when men try to implement such practices among those who know and love the Truth of God.
  • Jesus asked "When the son of man cometh will he find faith in the earth?" (Lk. 18:8). Hicks has a different version. He asks, When the Son of Man returns, "Will he find a church sitting at table with each other, sharing their food, embodying the values of the gospel, and waiting for the Messianic banquet?" (p. 195).
In general, the reader will note that Dr. Hicks employs a new brand of hermeneutics to reach his conclusions. For example, he seems to make no distinction between the Old and New Covenants. He sees the O.T. festivals as a communion service and thus we are to model our Lord's Supper after them (p. 47). "Eating the Lord's Supper is analogous to eating Israel's sacrifices" (p. 47). He finds Christ sharing communion with people before he instituted the Lord's Supper. For every passage that speaks of Christ eating with anyone is, according to him, part of the communion story. Of course since the text does not imply his conclusions, he assures us it is found in the "theological meaning." "The table during Jesus ministry continues in the church when his disciples gather at the table. Jesus' table etiquette is kingdom etiquette..." (p. 63). The new hermeneutic even allows him to make the meal eaten by Paul and the hungry, storm-tossed mariners a communion (p. 201). Why has it taken the world so long to discover this new system? Another discovery is that "the Lord's Supper...was not a mere corporate worship ritual, but the daily experience of worship...in a community of disciples who ate their "common" food together" (p. 91). He also finds it acceptable to describe the supper as "sacraments" (p. 104).

As change agents are wont to do, he first reaches his conclusion then looks for supporting facts to prove his case. It seems not to bother him that to do so he must compare apples with oranges. For example, Jesus provided fish and bread for the five thousand (Luke 9:10-17), therefore we should have a meal for communion (p.57-58). Since those meal stories are the "theological basis" for communion, would it bother the author if someone proposed buttermilk and cornbread with our communion? While one of the first principles of the change gospel is that there is no pattern for the faith, worship, organization and work of the church, Dr. Hicks quotes with approval, criticism of folks like us for not returning to the "New Testament patterns" he thinks he has found (p.137). Contrary to most change agents, the author appeals to the law of silence to prove his point, but only in reference to the Didache, an uninspired document from the early church. Regarding the document's reference to the Lord Supper, Hicks notes, "Strikingly absent is any reference to the body and blood of Christ, or the traditional words of institution..."(p. 130).

Those brethren who cannot see or hear evil in the doctrines of the change agents, should know that in Hicks' view "the essence of the modern supper (our communion, jhw) is suspect because it has lost its table... (meal) form" (p. 121). "(T)he modern church dangerously distorts the supper..." (p. 126).

A similar view of the supper had arisen in the church in Corinth. In his rebuke of their practice, Paul asked, "What have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? Or despise ye the church of God..." (I Cor. 11:22). For those who know God's Word and love and respect it, the simple noting of Dr. Hicks' teaching on the sacred Supper is sufficient to demonstrate his faulty thinking. Perhaps you will agree that it is truly amazing what a fellow can learn at a seminary!

John Waddey
Last edited by ConcernedMembers on January 4th, 2004, 6:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jeremy
Jeremy

January 4th, 2004, 8:25 pm #16

I'm sorry to say that I must disagree with you, Mr. Waddey.

Dr. Hicks teaches Theology of the Church and Systematic Biblical Doctrine, as well as Psalms, Deuteronomy, and other Bible classes (not just theology, as you previously stated), and he does a fine job of each.

The followers of Christ didn't sit in silence and bow their heads while passing around a little tray of matzo crackers or little discs of unleavened bread while sipping little cups of grape juice. The communion service described in the New Testament is not that small. You see it described almost everywhere as "breaking bread" and as "a feast". Most people that I know don't consider a quarter inch piece of cracker as a feast. Perhaps you do, but I don't know.

The verse that the church of Christ uses as the time of observance is Acts 20:7. I've seen so many posts on here that say things are taken out of context; however, this is one that seems to be MORE out of context than just about anything else I've seen. The ultracons want to do what they always do -- take out the part of the verse that defends their cause and throw the rest out. The WHOLE verse says, "On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight." Now, if that means we have to take communion every week, then whoever's preaching better keep on going until midnight, or we're disobeying the "direct command" central to the church of Christ dogma!

As for younger people (and the unbaptized) taking part in the Lord's Supper, what's actually wrong with it? There's nothing in the Bible that says the disciples or members of the church had to be baptized before they could partake.

Just because it's a church of Christ tradition does not make it Godly or right.
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Kenneth Sublett
Kenneth Sublett

January 5th, 2004, 2:21 am #17

The Meaning of the Fellowship Meal

John Mark Hicks: Several features characterize the fellowship meals of Israel. First, it is a moment of communion between God and his people. God eats with his people as the fat is burned to him. God is present at this meal. It is eaten before the Lord as if God sits at the table with the worshipper. Thus, worshippers eat with assurance, thanksgiving and confidence as they experience communion with God in this meal. God comes to the table with his people as he calls them to a table to experience his communion.

It is a fact that Jesus fired the Doctors of the Law: they were so BLIND that they thought that the SACRIFICIAL SYSTEM would continue. Therefore, John Hicks is consistent with the REST OF THE BAND in attempting to make EVERYTHING CHRISTIAN into everything PRE-CHRISTIAN.

I don't know where John got the VISIONARY REVELATION that Paul compared the Lord's Supper to the SACRIFICIAL festivals of Judaism. These sacrifices were based on their LOSTNESS having repudiated God and been turned over to a NATIONAL festival. However, the FAT was for the Levitical priests. As Bruce White Judaizes with the PRIESTS demanding TITHES most of the TROUBLERS attempt to define their PATTERNISM by repudiating the sacrifice of Christ:

For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. Ro.14:17

The VISION of the Lord's Supper as feeding God denies the fact that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ has ended all sacrifices and symbols. The praise or fruit of the lips has REPLACED literal sacrificial meals.

THE ORIGIN IN BABYLON: NOT IN THE BIBLE

The idea of FEEDING, clothing, housing, singing to and having sex with him/her is raw end-time Babylon Harlot Worship. Because of ISRAEL'S "sitting DOWN to eat and RISING UP TO PLAY in musical idolatry, God TURNED them over to worship the pagan "gods." Therefore, the FIRST attempt to share their TABLE with their god had them SHARING FOOD WITH DEMONS.

"On the assumption that he is to be identified with the Philistine god, Lagrange thinks the idea is derived from the special prerogative of Beelzebub as fly-chaser (chasse-mouche). In the Babylonian epic of the deluge, "the gods gather over the sacrificer like flies" (see Driver, Genesis, 105). It was easy for the heathen Semites, according to Lagrange, to come to conceive of the flies troubling the sacrifice as images of spirits hovering around with no right to be there; and so Beelzebub, the god who drove away the flies, became the prince of demons in whose name the devils were exorcised from the bodies of the possessed.

THIS IS WHERE THEY ASSUMED THAT A SPIRIT GOD WOULD EAT WITH THEM EVEN IN "COMMUNION."


I appointed a sacrifice on top of the mountain peak'
Seven by seven I arranged the sacrificial vessels;
Beneath them I piled reeds, cedar wood, and myrtle.
The gods smelled the savor,
The gods smelled the sweet savor.
The gods above the sacrificer collected like flies.



When at length the queen of the gods drew near,
She raised the great bows which An at her wish had made.
"O ye gods, as I shall not forget the jewel of my neck
These days I shall not forget--to eternity I shall remember!
Let the gods come to the SACRIFICE,

http://www.piney.com/GilgameshFlood2.html

Ken, I broke down and bought this book: it just grasps verses and NARRATES a theology of the Lord's Supper right out of vapors. I am ashamed that people will PAY to be misled.
Last edited by ConcernedMembers on January 5th, 2004, 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Kenneth Sublett
Kenneth Sublett

January 5th, 2004, 5:04 pm #18

I'm sorry to say that I must disagree with you, Mr. Waddey.

Dr. Hicks teaches Theology of the Church and Systematic Biblical Doctrine, as well as Psalms, Deuteronomy, and other Bible classes (not just theology, as you previously stated), and he does a fine job of each.

The followers of Christ didn't sit in silence and bow their heads while passing around a little tray of matzo crackers or little discs of unleavened bread while sipping little cups of grape juice. The communion service described in the New Testament is not that small. You see it described almost everywhere as "breaking bread" and as "a feast". Most people that I know don't consider a quarter inch piece of cracker as a feast. Perhaps you do, but I don't know.

The verse that the church of Christ uses as the time of observance is Acts 20:7. I've seen so many posts on here that say things are taken out of context; however, this is one that seems to be MORE out of context than just about anything else I've seen. The ultracons want to do what they always do -- take out the part of the verse that defends their cause and throw the rest out. The WHOLE verse says, "On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight." Now, if that means we have to take communion every week, then whoever's preaching better keep on going until midnight, or we're disobeying the "direct command" central to the church of Christ dogma!

As for younger people (and the unbaptized) taking part in the Lord's Supper, what's actually wrong with it? There's nothing in the Bible that says the disciples or members of the church had to be baptized before they could partake.

Just because it's a church of Christ tradition does not make it Godly or right.
Jeremy, I think that you are just a SEED PICKER: but the message will get through WITH your help.

Jesus sent the Apostles/Evangelists OUT to preach the Gospel. He didn't send them out to make CANAANITES or CAINITE worshipers. He said to:

MAKE DISCIPLES by
Baptizing AND Teaching what had been taught

Peter DID this by telling ALREADY-BELIEVERS to repent AND be baptized AND

Jesus said MY WORDS are SPIRIT and LIFE (John 6:63)

Receiving A holy spirit or A clear conscience or CONSCIOUSNESS meant A co-perception given to DISCIPLES. ALL of the history of baptism proves that one simply COULD NOT be an unbaptized DISCIPLE

Proseltes and TRADE DISCIPLES clearly understood this to mean that the MASTER fabric washer (baptizer) would NEVER teach you his trade secrets or MYSTERIES until you had been baptized to become HIS student "like a little child."

Now, we have it: A DISCIPLE is a BAPTIZED believer who has turned from the OLD TRADE (an unbaptized guitarIST was excluded from the church of Christ in the Apostolic Constitutions written under the name CHURCH OF CHRIST about a.d. 205). They have gained CITIZENSHIP in the Kingdom of heaven. Jesus ADDED those being SAVED by obedience at BAPTISM to the CHURCH or SYNAGOGUE which is HIS BODY and His kingdom.

A DISCIPLE is a student of Christ. Therefore, we need to show you FROM THE BIBLE that Paul as a PREACHER dialoged or communed with his STUDENTS: he did not lecture out of his training in THEOLOGY OF CHURCH--whatever that means in commercial religio.

The DISCIPLES were identified as CHRISTIANS at Antioch as a major sender of evangelists--OUT.

Jesus Christ and the Bible clearly show that ONLY baptized believers are identified as CHRISTIANS. Even Max Lucado has to confess that the Bible knows of NO unbaptized "believer."

The very meaning of baptism FOR the remission of sins means that the apprentice "striking to BECOME a Tentmaker" would be grouped with the presumptious insane if he said: "I don hav ta be BAPTIZED: God gave me the GIFT and exempted ME from needing to be a STUDENT since God has predestinated me to salvation."

Believer's baptism REJECTS the ONCE sacrifice of Christ which, they hallucinate, was ONLY for the JEWS. "Now, God PREDESTINATES me to be SAVED: Now, HE must come (as in the Mass) and DIE ALL OVER AGAIN just for me so the MEMBERS will ADD me to the church." Believer's Baptism is a pagan baptism, repudiates the CROSS of the first century and identifies those who HAVE FAITH by believing the WORDS OF GOD as "A SATANIC CULT."

Jesus promised to EAT and DRINK with the disciples IN THE KINGDOM which is the HEAVENLY REALM of those ADDED to the church.

Heb 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
Heb 12:19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven , and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect ,
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. Col.1:18
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Re.1:5
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Heb 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

Teleios (g5046) tel'-i-os; from 5056; complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); neut. (as noun, with 3588) completeness: - of full age, man, perfect.

The early CHURCH obeyed the direct command of Jesus: their HYMNING or PSALMING was TO GOD and not a SEEKER-SUCKER-STRATEGY. They went into PRIVATE PLACES to eat the Lord's Supper and considered the WATCHERS unworthy to enter into the "most holy place" alone with God. I am afraid that the THRILLS AND CHILLS are to REAP worship for the INSTITUTION and the PERFORMING CLERGY (women presiding OVER with a TUNE) which is assuredly NOT a synagogue of Christ.

The ARIANS were the first to make singing men and women into a PUBLIC DEMONSTRATION as an "evangelistic" tool to DENY that Jesus was God made manifest. I truly believe that OUTING theatrical performance to replace Lord Jesus Christ as the IN PRIVATE or IN SPIRIT Mediator in the quiet and dark Most Holy Place of OUR SPIRITS made perfect. John Mark Hicks and the other Judaizers trying to turn it into a JUBILEE simply has been BLINDED by the light of Jesus as PROPHESIED and therefore peddles STRONG DELUSIONS. It HAS NO relationship to A church of Christ. When God POURS OUT HIS SPIRIT in WRATH, He makes people into BUFFOONS speaking gibberish.

Ken
Last edited by ConcernedMembers on January 5th, 2004, 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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John Waddey
John Waddey

January 6th, 2004, 8:47 pm #19

I'm sorry to say that I must disagree with you, Mr. Waddey.

Dr. Hicks teaches Theology of the Church and Systematic Biblical Doctrine, as well as Psalms, Deuteronomy, and other Bible classes (not just theology, as you previously stated), and he does a fine job of each.

The followers of Christ didn't sit in silence and bow their heads while passing around a little tray of matzo crackers or little discs of unleavened bread while sipping little cups of grape juice. The communion service described in the New Testament is not that small. You see it described almost everywhere as "breaking bread" and as "a feast". Most people that I know don't consider a quarter inch piece of cracker as a feast. Perhaps you do, but I don't know.

The verse that the church of Christ uses as the time of observance is Acts 20:7. I've seen so many posts on here that say things are taken out of context; however, this is one that seems to be MORE out of context than just about anything else I've seen. The ultracons want to do what they always do -- take out the part of the verse that defends their cause and throw the rest out. The WHOLE verse says, "On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight." Now, if that means we have to take communion every week, then whoever's preaching better keep on going until midnight, or we're disobeying the "direct command" central to the church of Christ dogma!

As for younger people (and the unbaptized) taking part in the Lord's Supper, what's actually wrong with it? There's nothing in the Bible that says the disciples or members of the church had to be baptized before they could partake.

Just because it's a church of Christ tradition does not make it Godly or right.
Dear Bro. Jeremy:

Thank you for taking time to write and share with me your thoughts about communion.

First of all I remind you that my review was not a discussion of which courses Dr. Hicks teaches at Lipscomb University, but of the ideas he has set forth in his book, "Come to the Table."

Second by simply calling me or other brethren "ultracons" meaning ultra conservatives, you do not establish your case. Only if you can substantiate your ideas by God's Word will it stand. If it is based only on your feelings, human reasoning, denominational practices, etc. it will not stand the test.

Third the point of discussion about the scriptural way to commune is not whether we drink fruit of the vine from one cup or many, nor is it whether the cups are small or large. The only salient point is why do we drink? Jesus said, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood: this do, as often as ye drink it, in remembrance of me" (I Cor. 11:25). Nowhere do we read that Christ taught, nor that early Christians understood it to be part of a common meal on a festive occasion. That is where human thinking runs contrary to God's revealed will. The size of the piece of bread we eat in the memorial is not the point of issue. If a congregation wished to have a large quantity of bread so all could have a bigger bite, there would be no criticism. But if you partake to fill you belly, you would have missed the point of the communion. After eating the Passover supper Jesus instituted the sacred memorial (Luke. 22:20). Paul rebuked the Christians in Corinth because they were mixing the communion with their common meals. He asked, "What have ye not houses to eat and to drink in" or despise ye the church of God..." (I Cor. 11:20-22). Being a memorial, whether we eat and drink a little or a lot, is not the point. The point is are you doing it for the prescribed purpose?

Your treatment of Acts 20:7 reveals much about you and your thinking. First you say "the church of Christ uses" this verse for the time of their observance. This implies that you no longer consider yourself a part of the church of Christ.

Second you say we take it out of context. Perhaps you could explain from this text why the disciples assembled that day? Why did Paul tarry seven days before his departure from Troas? When they broke the bread that day, what did they do? What day is the first day? Is there a difference in eating food for the belly and partaking of the Lord's Supper? Is this distinction made where you worship?

You evidently do not think that weekly communion is necessary, or that communion should be limited to that day. Since such is the universal practice of churches of Christ and the early Christians, why do you not go to a church that observes it after that fashion? Many denominational bodies could be found with such a view.

Third, your statement that since Paul preached until midnight, we must do the same if we are going to commune on the first day. This reveals that you are in desperate need of a good course in Hermeneutics, i.e., to study and understand the Bible. Specifically you need to learn to discern between things that are incidental and things that are essential.

Your railing against church of Christ traditions proves nothing. No church of Christ has closed communion. We do not interrogate those who commune. Rather we follow the Scripture that says, "Wherefore let a man examine himself, and so let him eat..." (I Cor. 11:28). We base our belief that the communion is for those who are Christians on Luke 22:29-30 where the Master said, "I appoint unto you a kingdom...that ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom..." The kingdom of Christ is his church (Matt. 16:18). The only table and eating that are part of the kingdom is the Lord's Supper. It is for those in his kingdom.

The tone and content of your letter reveal that you are already under the influence of those who are promoting unscriptural changes for the Lord's church. I suspect you don't even realize what it is they are leading you into. I plead with you as a brother in Christ not to allow your teachers to poison you against the church for which Christ died. That you will open the sacred book and fill your mind with those eternal truths and let them guide you as you serve the Master.

Yours in Christ,

John Waddey
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Kenneth Sublett
Kenneth Sublett

January 7th, 2004, 2:32 am #20

I'm sorry to say that I must disagree with you, Mr. Waddey.

Dr. Hicks teaches Theology of the Church and Systematic Biblical Doctrine, as well as Psalms, Deuteronomy, and other Bible classes (not just theology, as you previously stated), and he does a fine job of each.

The followers of Christ didn't sit in silence and bow their heads while passing around a little tray of matzo crackers or little discs of unleavened bread while sipping little cups of grape juice. The communion service described in the New Testament is not that small. You see it described almost everywhere as "breaking bread" and as "a feast". Most people that I know don't consider a quarter inch piece of cracker as a feast. Perhaps you do, but I don't know.

The verse that the church of Christ uses as the time of observance is Acts 20:7. I've seen so many posts on here that say things are taken out of context; however, this is one that seems to be MORE out of context than just about anything else I've seen. The ultracons want to do what they always do -- take out the part of the verse that defends their cause and throw the rest out. The WHOLE verse says, "On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight." Now, if that means we have to take communion every week, then whoever's preaching better keep on going until midnight, or we're disobeying the "direct command" central to the church of Christ dogma!

As for younger people (and the unbaptized) taking part in the Lord's Supper, what's actually wrong with it? There's nothing in the Bible that says the disciples or members of the church had to be baptized before they could partake.

Just because it's a church of Christ tradition does not make it Godly or right.
The church or ekklesia Jesus built was His kingdom or AREA OF RULE. His example and commands were to go preach and the LORD'S SUPPER more like PASSOVER prior to Babylon than John Mark Hicks claim that Paul had a SACRIFICIAL FEAST in mind where we lap up the fat with God. The PASSOVER was the sitting but the FITH CUP was the fulfillment that MESSIAH HAD COME: they did not engage in the drunken Babylonian Passover. The CUP was the CONTENTS and the TABLE was the setting. However,they did not EAT the original PASSOVER which involved REAL flesh and REAL blood. Therefore, the LORD'S SUPPER is something OTHER than eating to keep from starving Bruce White is apparently going to urge on the church. It was a MEMORIAL or REMEMBRANCE of the DEATH of Christ consumated in a LIVING LAMB and not a BROKEN BODY literally consumed.

The BROKEN BREAD symbolizes the BODY of Christ and the Fruit of the vine the BLOOD. Those who make it a REAL MEAL for eating the Lord's Supper with PORK BARBECUE in their teeth DENY that we EAT the BODY symbolically by the sop or "ground off bits" of BREAD. The EUCHARIST John Mark Hicks and the AGAPAE people promote implies EATING Christ or EATING FAT with God. Among the "scholars" who have confiscated our "colleges" there is an UNHOLY LUST to move on the OTHER side of the cross.

The Word ASSEMBLY IS

Sunagoge (g4864)soon-ag-o-gay'; from (the REDUPLICATE form of) 4863; an assemblage of persons; spec. a Jewish "synagogue" (the MEETING or the PLACE); by anal. a Christian EKKLESIA: - assembly, congregation, synagogue.

For if there come unto your SYNAGOGUE a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; Ja.2:2

Synagogue DOUBLES SUNAGO something like "Tom-Tom."

Acts19:41 And when he had thus spoken, he dismissed the ASSEMBLY.

Ekklesia (g1577) ek-klay-see'-ah; from a comp. of 1537 and a der. of 2564; a calling out, i.e. (concr.) a popular meeting, espec. a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Chr. community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.

Acts 20:1 AND after the uproar was ceased, Paul called unto him the DISCIPLES, and embraced them, and departed for to go into Macedonia.

Bruce White speaks of US filling YOU with a burning "holy spirt." However, one is filled with the Spirit as one is filled with the WORD of Christ which we also EAT as His SPIRIT and LIFE. This is the act of a STUDENT and not a pagan being INITIATED into obscene fellowship by eating you don't want to know what.

Mathetes (g3101) math-ay-tes'; from 3129; a LEARNER, i.e. PUPIL: - disciple.

Acts 20:2 And when he had gone over those parts, and had given them much EXHORTATION, he came into Greece,

EXHORTATION again is what one does RATHER than stirring up the carnal senses OUTLAWED for the synagogue in Romans 15.

Parakaleo (g3807) par-ak-al-eh'-o; from 3844 and 2564; to CALL NEAR, i.e. INVITE, invoke (by imploration, hortation or consolation): - beseech, call for, (be of good) comfort, desire, (give) exhort (-ation), intreat, pray.

Acts 20:5 These going before tarried for us at Troas.
Acts 20:6 And we sailed away from Philippi after the days of UNLEAVENED BREAD, and came unto them to Troas in five days; where we abode SEVEN days.

Sunago (g4863) soon-ag'-o; from 4862 and 71; to lead together, i.e. collect or convene; spec. to entertain (hospitably): - / accompany, assemble (selves, together), bestow, come together, gather (selves together, up, together), lead into, resort, take in.
--------------------------
And upon the FIRST DAY of the week, when the disciples "SUNAGO" to break bread, Paul PREACHED unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight. Acts 20:7

They didn't SYNAGOGUE every day: they worked for a living. The ONLY reason for synagoguing on the FIRST DAY was to carry out the REMEMBRANCE of the passion of Christ. Paul tarried to teach them.

First, let's note that people do not assemble as STUDENTS in a SYNAGOGUE in order to eat a COMMON MEAL. The Lord's Supper is a way to show forth or PREACH the death of Jesus Christ. Because DOING CHURCH often meant travel and the need for food (no Shoneys, you know) people provided food for the group as they still do for extended gatherings.

JESUS SAID GO MAKE DISCIPLES, NOT WORSHIPERS. Paul's unique worship word is to GIVE HEED to the WORD. This is the only way to give heed to Jesus Christ.
.......Mathetes (g3101) math-ay-tes'; from 3129; a LEARNER, i.e. PUPIL: - disciple.

Now, listen up: the STUDENTS came together because they had been baptized to make them DISCIPLES. What do STUDENTS in the religious sense do? Why, they learn the Word of God which CANNOT be squeezed into sermons condemning and judging people who won't "worship" with instruments.
........THEY are thinking about a pagan worship center.
........Jesus and those in Troas were thinking about GOING TO BIBLE SCHOOL.
........Thomas Campbell called church A SCHOOL OF CHRIST.
........The Germans called it a SKUL

Therefore, you find almost no history of SINGING other than the Bible for hundreds of years.

There is little "WHEN IN CHUCH" description of a WORSHIP RITUAL which means the superstitious belief that if you obey the LAW OF SINGING God owes you something: at least He loses His right to burn you. The early assemblies were simple affairs of reading and studying the Word, singing Biblical songs to LEARN them, remembering Christ in the supper, listening to any learned person and providing for the poor or rather destitute. At its heart the synagogue was devoted to the WORD: the church continued to be that. I am not aware of any children meeting with these synagogues.

PAUL DIDN'T LEAD THE SINGING or take up a collection. Paul preached. But, Paul NEVER did what most preachers are trained to do to be skilled rhetoricians which were recognized in that period as of the SECTARIAN Hypocrites: speakers, sophists, singers or musicians. The teachers TEACH and do not lecture about US.

WHAT DID PAUL DO to meet the needs of the STUDENTS who assembled as a SYNAGOGUE OF CHRIST at the place of the ekklesia.

Dialegomai (g1256) dee-al-eg'-om-ahee; mid. from 1223 and 3004; to say thoroughly, i.e. DISCUSS (in argument or exhortation): - dispute, preach (unto), REASON (with), speak.

Paul discoursed about the word as a teacher would teach. But, he wouldn't teach FINANCIAL PLANNING in a BIBLE class. Nor would he bring in a "Music Team" to assist him in explaining baptism. The word also means the hard dialog by which even one who claimed inspiration in Corinth must submit his "songs" to another prophet. Because there were none of those in Corinth, Paul used his cutting method to tell everyone to sit down and shut up.

.......And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days REASONED with them out of the SCRIPTURES, Ac.17:2

If Paul had preached a cut and paste sermon believing that his construction had the power to MAKE SPIRITUAL CHANGES he would have been a traitor to the Spirit of Christ Which inspired the SCRIPTURES. You cannot PREACH in the rhetorician or sOPHISts (serpents) style without INTENDING to scramble the minds of the people so that they never "come to a knowledge of the truth."

And there were many lights in the UPPER chamber, where they were SUNAGO together. Ac.20:8

When he therefore was come up again, and had broken bread, and eaten, and TALKED a long while, even till break of day, so he departed. Acts 20:11

Homileo (g3656) hom-il-eh'-o; from 3658; to be in company with, i.e. (by impl.) to converse: - commune, talk.

And they TALKED TOGETHER of all these things which had happened. Lu.24:14

And it came to pass, that, while they COMMUNED together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them. Lu.24:15

LEARNING by a DISCIPLE never takes place at a LECTURE. Learning takes place when a good note taker "speaks to himself" and "meditates in the mind." Or, one discusses it with other students or the professor. Learning hasn't happened until DIALOG occurs and you can explain to others what you have learned.

The Bible, in most translations, speaks in a SPIRITUAL LANGUAGE. A "worshiper" even today doesn't care if it is an unknown dialect: they are out to rub their pleasure centers, get paid and get worshipped. However, one learns to PRAISE God by communing or dialoging or "singing" the Biblical material. They are FILLED with the spirit (word) of God and then "make melody" all week.

As John has noted, the church of Christ does not do an inquisition before allowing people to be their OWN Judges. T. Campbell got into trouble with the Presbyterians because he permitted Presbytrians of another SECT to take the Lord's Supper. The meaning of BAPTISM to the Baptists is to APPROVE them to eat the Lord's Supper. The Britannica notes that:

Quoted from the Britannica: "In other traditions within Protestantism the sacraments have become "ordinances," not channels of grace but expressions of faith and obedience of the Christian community. Among BAPTISTS the practice of "close communion" has RESTRICTED the ordinance to those who are baptized PROPERLY; i.e., as adults upon a profession of faith. The Society of Friends (Quakers) dropped the use of the Eucharist altogether in its reaction against formalism.

So, the seed picking has the universal theme: to FALSELY ACCUSE churches of Christ of what OTHERS are doing. This is the HEGLIAN DIALECT to try to use any means to make people UNHAPPY with their faith and practice SO that those who are TRULY CLOSED MINDED and CLOSED COMMUNION can infiltrate and divert. Jer, when the Baptists take over YOU will have to be purged of your CULT THINKING. You will have to endure the LAW until you cry "UNCLE." Then you will get a supernatural sign. You will then be ENDOCTRINATED and, if approved, BAPTIZED by having Jesus DIE AGAIN for your sins.

Ken
Last edited by ConcernedMembers on January 7th, 2004, 2:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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