Jay Guin: List of False Teachings at Wineskins

Dave
Dave

November 15th, 2010, 9:35 pm #21

AM,
The whole story represented the parallel from our command and from the Scriptures of.... TO SING.... and the father's simple instructions in 'cutting the grass.' AM, please let me know if I you are not connecting here, ok? The story had NOTHING to do with listening to an iPod during worship, or misusing an iPod in any way for our Lord.
Since God tells us TO SING.....do we have the freedom to sing a solo, with a praise team, with a choir, or having a piano to accompany our singing? These freedoms are taken away by man.....NOT GOD. God told us to sing.
NOW AM, we go to the father's instructions of 'mowing the grass.' The father didn't say how to cut the grass....he just said to cut it. Would an iPod be sinful if the boy used it while cutting the grass. The grass still gets cut, doesn't it??? However, the father did not SPECIFICALLY tell the son that he could use an ipod.....now did he? Does it matter that there were no instructions about the use of the iPod?
Not really.
If the iPod helps the son in doing a better job (since he obviously loves music), or getting the job done faster, then all is well.
The main point here, and also...is this.....if the father would have NOT wanted the son to have used the iPod, he would have so instructed.
Are you catching on AM?
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

November 15th, 2010, 11:12 pm #22

Dave wrote to Donnie: "As far as editing......I will leave that up to you. I will take content over crossing a t any day." Dave takes a defensive attitude when anyone corrects him about spelling/punctuation. It's as if Dave is saying, "I don't give a plugged nickel for spelling/punctuation and prefer to be illiterate any day than to have YOU correct me!" That just mars whatever "content" Dave posts even more.
In dealing with the "worship" issue, creating an image of the Virgin Mary ("Mother of God" per the RCC creed) to be worshiped would be a better illustration than the iPod and cutting the grass.

Although we have a timid illustration of the iPod which involves only listening, we'll just try to deal with that, anyway, because the example still shows a key point concerning mechanical music in worship, the question: "Does the father's silence imply a prohibition?"

It all boils down to the issue [check the title above] of "the law of silence."

OK, just briefly (for me due to lack of time), here are the differences to consider:
  • The Restoration Movement: The Law of Silence means -- "We speak where the Bible speaks; we are silent where the Bible is silent""

    ---------- versus ----------

    </li>
  • The Change Agents' Movement: The Law of Silence means -- "God authorizes whatever/whenever the Scripture does NOT say 'NOT TO.'""</li>
Take it from there.
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AM
AM

November 15th, 2010, 11:49 pm #23

AM,
The whole story represented the parallel from our command and from the Scriptures of.... TO SING.... and the father's simple instructions in 'cutting the grass.' AM, please let me know if I you are not connecting here, ok? The story had NOTHING to do with listening to an iPod during worship, or misusing an iPod in any way for our Lord.
Since God tells us TO SING.....do we have the freedom to sing a solo, with a praise team, with a choir, or having a piano to accompany our singing? These freedoms are taken away by man.....NOT GOD. God told us to sing.
NOW AM, we go to the father's instructions of 'mowing the grass.' The father didn't say how to cut the grass....he just said to cut it. Would an iPod be sinful if the boy used it while cutting the grass. The grass still gets cut, doesn't it??? However, the father did not SPECIFICALLY tell the son that he could use an ipod.....now did he? Does it matter that there were no instructions about the use of the iPod?
Not really.
If the iPod helps the son in doing a better job (since he obviously loves music), or getting the job done faster, then all is well.
The main point here, and also...is this.....if the father would have NOT wanted the son to have used the iPod, he would have so instructed.
Are you catching on AM?
"The whole story represented the parallel from our command and from the Scriptures of.... TO SING.... "

GOT IT!

and there is not an instrument involved!

" The father didn't say how to cut the grass....he just said to cut it."

Yes, and that is where an example would come in. How were we shown to cut the grass?

How were we shown to worship?

So we are told to worship God and then given an example on how we are to worship. A perfect example that really needs no explanation, that was given by Jesus himself! All is good, except for those who do not like to follow examples of our Lord. Dave, please give me a scripture that says Jesus played anything while worshiping God. Betcha can't!



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Dave
Dave

November 16th, 2010, 1:05 am #24

In dealing with the "worship" issue, creating an image of the Virgin Mary ("Mother of God" per the RCC creed) to be worshiped would be a better illustration than the iPod and cutting the grass.

Although we have a timid illustration of the iPod which involves only listening, we'll just try to deal with that, anyway, because the example still shows a key point concerning mechanical music in worship, the question: "Does the father's silence imply a prohibition?"

It all boils down to the issue [check the title above] of "the law of silence."

OK, just briefly (for me due to lack of time), here are the differences to consider:
  • The Restoration Movement: The Law of Silence means -- "We speak where the Bible speaks; we are silent where the Bible is silent""

    ---------- versus ----------

    </li>
  • The Change Agents' Movement: The Law of Silence means -- "God authorizes whatever/whenever the Scripture does NOT say 'NOT TO.'""</li>
Take it from there.
There is no 'Law of Silence.'
There is no such law. That is only man trying to make his traditions to be THE ONLY true way to worship God.
It is NOT!
The True Worship to our Lord is from the heart and is not limited to a certain tradition.
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

November 16th, 2010, 3:59 am #25

If there is no Law of Silence, because the New Testament doesn't explicitly mention it, then if we use Dave's fallacious reasoning, there must not be a "Bible" or "Holy Bible," since those terms also do not exist anywhere in what we call the "Bible." Dave will have to throw away his "Bible," since that is what is printed on the front cover! Surely Dave would not want to possess any book that's called by something not mentioned in the written Word of God! But just because a term, name, or phrase does not appear in Scripture text as such, does that mean it is not at all relevant? Observe:

The fact of the matter is that man devises certain names, terms, and phrases for spiritual things, and those designations do not detract from God's Word. "Bible" and "Holy Bible" are man's terms for the written Word of God, and there is nothing wrong with them.

Likewise, the designation "Christ's Requirements for Salvation" accurately describes the requirements for salvation that Christ has specified in the New Testament. No, that man-made designation does not appear in Scripture, yet it does not in any way detract from what Christ requires. There is a thread by that same title on this site.

Likewise, man has designated Matt. 5-7 as "The Sermon on the Mount," yet that term does not appear in Scripture text. Sure, Bible page headings and footnotes may say "The Sermon on the Mount," but Bible page headings and footnotes are man-made. BTW, would Dave want a "Bible" with man-made page headings and footnotes? Surely Dave doesn't think that those man-made page headings and footnotes were included in the original manuscripts!

And then the Law of Silence is simply man's way of saying that we speak where the Bible speaks and are silent where the Bible is silent. We have no authority to take God's specific commands and tweak them to suit our personal preferences. Since we are told not to go above what is written in Scripture (1 Cor. 4:6), then "Law of Silence" is a way to describe that if God issues a command and specifies certain things about it and does not include (is silent about) other things in that command), then bringing in what God has not specified in that command is sinful.
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AM
AM

November 16th, 2010, 4:28 am #26

There is no 'Law of Silence.'
There is no such law. That is only man trying to make his traditions to be THE ONLY true way to worship God.
It is NOT!
The True Worship to our Lord is from the heart and is not limited to a certain tradition.
"The True Worship to our Lord is from the heart and is ..."limited to the example that Jesus gave us.
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Dave
Dave

November 16th, 2010, 1:57 pm #27

I agree with AM and couldn't get past William Crump's first statement of 'Holy Bible' not being in the Scriptures.
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

November 16th, 2010, 3:59 pm #28

It may actually shock Dave to know that the words "Bible" and "Holy Bible" are man-made terms. They do not appear in Scripture text in any of the standard translations. The only place they appear are on the front covers, introductory remarks by editorial staff of publishing houses, and perhaps in footnotes and explanatory notes that accompany the text, all of which are man-made additions to Scripture text. Dave will not find the following phraseology or any like it in Scripture text: "Open your Holy Bibles"; "The Bible says..."; "In the Holy Bible..."; "Read your Bible..." etc. That Dave couldn't get past my first statement of "Holy Bible" not being in the Scriptures is an obvious denial of the truth.
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AM
AM

November 17th, 2010, 1:55 am #29

I agree with AM and couldn't get past William Crump's first statement of 'Holy Bible' not being in the Scriptures.
I do not know where we are going with the conversation, yet it does look like a snake that eats its tail.

On to deeper thoughts.

Yes. I agree that Dr. Crump's observations are interesting. Another thought, no where in the Bible is there a reference to the word of God, as the written Bible. In fact the word of God was with God from the beginning(as John 1:1 states)and he was not talking about the Bible. Obviously the Bible was not with God in the Beginning. So what is "The Word of God"?

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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

November 17th, 2010, 2:29 am #30

Psa. 33:4 For the word of THE LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.
Psa. 33:5 He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD.
Psa. 33:6 By the (1) word [Dabar=Logos) of the (2) LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the (3) breath (Spirit) of his mouth.
Psa. 33:7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses.
Psa. 33:8 Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him.
Psa. 33:9 For HE spake, and it was done;
HE commanded, and it stood fast.

There is only ONE invisible, inaudible Deity.
When HE began to SPEAK His WORDS were His SON (say all classical trinitarians)
The Spirit of God is the BREATH of God: it is invisible, inaudible and like the wind carries power.
The SON articulates the BREATH of the SPEAKER so we can hear.

Whatever the SON articulates is SPIRIT (congealed)

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the WORDS that I speak unto you, they are SPIRIT, and they are life.

When the Eye and Ear witnesses recorded their messages as Peter left us a memory in written form that BECOMES the Word of God.

Heb. 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the WORD of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
Heb. 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have SPOKEN unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

Luke 5:1 And it came to pass, that, as the people pressed upon him to hear the word of God, he stood by the lake of Gennesaret,
Luke 8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

That's why there is absolutely no human able or authorized to tamper with the Word of God to make it more POWERFUL to make people feel powerful.

The Command is to PREACH the word by READING the word and discussing it so that that assigned text (as in the synagogue) is brought to bear: the Word transfers SPIRIT as MIND of Christ.
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