Is there a law of giving as an act of worship for the church of Christ?

Is there a law of giving as an act of worship for the church of Christ?

Joined: February 11th, 2016, 11:16 pm

March 16th, 2016, 3:52 pm #1

I had a conversation with an elder of a church of Christ regarding giving as a commandment on the first day of the week. He asserted that it is a commandment and it was part of our worship to God. We know that Jerusalem was experiencing famine, and that the various churches had offered to give to alleviate their suffering. The Corinthians had promised that they would help, but had never submitted the monies. Paul in his letters to them gave them instructions to lay by on the first day of the week, so there would be no collection when he came. He then instructed them that this was not a commandment, but they should be willing to help, as this would be pleasing to God. I was given verses Act 20:35 and Rom15:27, which he said proves we are to give as a commandment to the church on the first day of the week. Wouldn't a commandment take away the free will offering? How is the money collected being used? Is the majority going to the poor, widows and the fatherless? If it is a commandment and someone doesn't have the money to give, would they be sinning because they couldn't keep the commandment?

I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive. (‭Acts‬ ‭20‬:‭35‬ KJV)

It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things. (‭Romans‬ ‭15‬:‭27‬ KJV)

Yea, it hath been their good pleasure; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, they owe it to them also to minister unto them in carnal things. (‭Romans‬ ‭15‬:‭27‬ ASV)

I have shown you in every way, by laboring like this, that you must support the weak. And remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’ ” (‭Acts‬ ‭20‬:‭35‬ NKJV)

He used these translation for his assertion...the words ought is changed to must in Acts, and duty to owe in Rom., and I used the KJV. Both of these verses are for the poor saints in Jerusalem. I agree that we should help those in need, if they have no family to help, and situations where the whole community is in need. But handing over monies for a building, salaries, technology, song books and classroom booklets, doesn't leave much to help the poor.

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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

March 16th, 2016, 4:22 pm #2

Thanks for that very important question. As they say "THAT IS A SALVATION ISSUE."

There was a time when this was not an issue because you could trust that godly elders who were the Christ-given "pastor-teachers" over the flock. That defines the PATTERN.

The rise of the ACU-Highland "herald of truth" -- now claimed to be the Abilene Kingdom -- was one of the sowers of discord. As with all imposed plans to "force the kingdom" Jimmy Joe's program becomes almost a "salvation issue" and surely no congregation could stand aloof.

As with all sectarians, they accuse the refusers of being divisive. That is the old Guilt Clause used most destructively of the Instrumental Music -- opposite the School of the Word for Disciples.

"Yes, I know I shot you in the head, but YOU are sowing discord by yelling and spilling blood all over the carpet."

"Liberty gives me the right to add African Tom Toms and if you resist or LEAVE then you are being divisive."

Most Bible students understood that no elder has the right to encourage or even force struggling people to support another person's agenda by "putting it in the budget." The rise of the Senior Pastor now claims that once you turn loose your contribution YOU cannot decide how it is used--or abused.

I hope someone will present the case for making giving money a Law of Giving.

I will post some Biblical and Historical testimony.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

March 16th, 2016, 11:24 pm #3

No! Paul said that voluntary giving of those who PROSPERED to those who WORKED but did not prosper was NOT A COMMANDMENT. The pilgrims in Jerusalem were going hungry and people sold property. However, the message of God was-is:

Acts 5:4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God

The rise of the Senior Pastor person would say NO, it is not yours.

After the Priests and Elders conspired to silence the voice of Jesus,

Matt. 28:16 Then the ELEVEN disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
Matt. 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
Matt. 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying,
<font color="#FFFFFF">.....
All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Matt. 28:19
.....Go ye therefore,
.....and teach all nations,
.....baptizing them in the name [singular} of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Matt. 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:


That is the ONE PIECE PATTERN for anyone who, according to Paul deserves his living or FOOD but cannot accept it and still preach the Free Water of the Word. This command has no statute of elimination the apostates claim:

.....and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Mark 1:1 The BEGINNING of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;


Mark 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the KINGDOM of God, </font>

The Kingdom is the Church of Christ: it does not come with observation meaning religious observations.

The Assembly is led by Apt elders as the only vocational pastor-teachers. The Evangelists locally or remote is called a HERALD. A herald cannot tamper with the Word.

The Adcox-Young KAIROS scheme slanders existing congregations as unable to function in the AFTER COMPUTER AGE. The pattern is to fleece the people planning to plant 60,000 congregations. Russ Adcox decries the inability to keep up with the population but sows massive discord and claims that the Tom Tom drums have attracted 150 new members.

However, they believe that Church is a WORSHIP CENTER so that the only way to worship is to hire a staff to PERFORM or OFFER various styles of worship experience. That means that they are unable to grasp the universal purpose driving the assembly is to be a School of Christ: teaching what He commanded to be taught.

The only reason the Church in the wilderness assembled was to "Rest, Read and Rehearse the Word of God." That purpose is repeated over and over in the New Testament. Disciples of Christ do not perform hypocritic acts when people are called to learn the WORD OF GOD. The AC or After Computers makes just about everything ever written available without cost. That's where all of the "congregation disguised as empty pews have gone." Building more pews is like building more buggy whips.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

March 17th, 2016, 3:16 pm #4

I had a conversation with an elder of a church of Christ regarding giving as a commandment on the first day of the week. He asserted that it is a commandment and it was part of our worship to God. We know that Jerusalem was experiencing famine, and that the various churches had offered to give to alleviate their suffering. The Corinthians had promised that they would help, but had never submitted the monies. Paul in his letters to them gave them instructions to lay by on the first day of the week, so there would be no collection when he came. He then instructed them that this was not a commandment, but they should be willing to help, as this would be pleasing to God. I was given verses Act 20:35 and Rom15:27, which he said proves we are to give as a commandment to the church on the first day of the week. Wouldn't a commandment take away the free will offering? How is the money collected being used? Is the majority going to the poor, widows and the fatherless? If it is a commandment and someone doesn't have the money to give, would they be sinning because they couldn't keep the commandment?

I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive. (‭Acts‬ ‭20‬:‭35‬ KJV)

It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things. (‭Romans‬ ‭15‬:‭27‬ KJV)

Yea, it hath been their good pleasure; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, they owe it to them also to minister unto them in carnal things. (‭Romans‬ ‭15‬:‭27‬ ASV)

I have shown you in every way, by laboring like this, that you must support the weak. And remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’ ” (‭Acts‬ ‭20‬:‭35‬ NKJV)

He used these translation for his assertion...the words ought is changed to must in Acts, and duty to owe in Rom., and I used the KJV. Both of these verses are for the poor saints in Jerusalem. I agree that we should help those in need, if they have no family to help, and situations where the whole community is in need. But handing over monies for a building, salaries, technology, song books and classroom booklets, doesn't leave much to help the poor.
A Church of Christ is defined by Paul with SYNAGOGUE words. Whatever Jesus brought to give REST and SCHOOL is the ANTITHESIS of the Laws of the Monarcy imposed of musical idolatry. Both the TITHE and LEVITICAL MUSICIANS are PATTERNED after those under David. Therefore, the Law of Giving has escalated into the pattern of the Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites marked as self-preachers for hire, singers and instrument players. Jesus said that the Pharisees made up their own rules BASED ON THE CHANGE IN CULTURE, no doubt. The made long prayers identified in the Greek as HYMNS in order to "eat up the widows houses".

Jacob cursed the tribe of Levi and commanded that the godly Israelites (not Jews) attend their assemblies nor enter into their covenant.

Because of instrumental-trinitarian idolatry at Mount Sinai the Levites jumped at the chance to execute 3,000 of their idolatrous brethren

Ex. 32:28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.

God then commanded that these Levites STAND IN RANKS around the later temple: their loud noise never called music was called prophesying or sorcery: it was exorcism to keep the FLIES and the not-abandoned away from the sacrifices God did not command.

2,500,000 Jews came out of Egypt and this would have multiplied.
Before he died (much too late to be from God) David commanded the Levite family to accompany the FUTURE Temple which God did not command offering sacrifices God did not command. They were divided 24 courses and 1,300 might be in Jerusalem for their short service: not all of these would be on duty. They were given a daily ration of food when on rare rotating duty.

David said that HE commanded this order and HE made the instruments and commanded that they be used. Anyone reading Acts 7 would know that God DID NOT command the defacto Babylonian City-State for a short time while God was giving them kings in His anger and transporting them to Assyria and Babylon to execute the sentence imposed at Mount Sinai

That means that 1 (one) Levite was was on duty for about 2 weeks out of the year.
Each Levite would represent about 1923 Jews for 2 weeks out of the year as the only time he was given a daily ration of food.

Thos OCCUPATION lasted for about 200 years.

ONLY those who had been given confiscated FOOD PRODUCING property gave about--
3-4/7 or 1/10 to the Tribe of Levi for their Police, warfare and educational role never fulfilled.

The TRIBE gave 3-4/7 of 1/10 of 1/10 of Food-only to the 1-representing 1923 to keep a plague from breaking out to the Levites when on duty as a daily dole of food only.

A Priest or Levite was ON DUTY about 2 weeks out of the year. They were required to hold down jobs. If they wanted a new motorcycle to drive above the Lord's Table they had to hold down an honest job.

No one paid the tithe which different purposes for each year on the 7th year: someone is going to get hungry if they do not work.

Most honorable preachers PLAN that they will never be rich or famous and can never trust fickle elders for their 401k.

There was never a godly located-evangelist or "located-missionary" and when the poor people worked, Paul and his people worked: when the people had time TO rest then Paul had time to REST. Sabbath was never called a day of worship. The Greek PAUO has the same meaning of REST: it outlaws everything but the implied meaning of:

Sabba^t-ismos , ho, A.a keeping of days of REST, Ep. Hebr.4.9, cf. Plu.2.166a (codd., baptismous Bentley).

skholē , hē, A.leisure, REST, ease, skhol-azō , A.to have leisure or spare time, to be at leisure, have nothing to do, Devote oneself to a Master:


Jesus is the ONLY Master Teacher even when Senior Pastors claim that THEY are. Jews Only were subject to tithing as CHEAP RENT while on the confiscated lands in Canaan only. Modern Food Industries give food to the poor only because there is no God Abandoned Levites being paid for slaughtering innocent animals which God did NOT command.
Last edited by Ken.Sublett on March 17th, 2016, 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

March 17th, 2016, 7:41 pm #5

I had a conversation with an elder of a church of Christ regarding giving as a commandment on the first day of the week. He asserted that it is a commandment and it was part of our worship to God. We know that Jerusalem was experiencing famine, and that the various churches had offered to give to alleviate their suffering. The Corinthians had promised that they would help, but had never submitted the monies. Paul in his letters to them gave them instructions to lay by on the first day of the week, so there would be no collection when he came. He then instructed them that this was not a commandment, but they should be willing to help, as this would be pleasing to God. I was given verses Act 20:35 and Rom15:27, which he said proves we are to give as a commandment to the church on the first day of the week. Wouldn't a commandment take away the free will offering? How is the money collected being used? Is the majority going to the poor, widows and the fatherless? If it is a commandment and someone doesn't have the money to give, would they be sinning because they couldn't keep the commandment?

I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive. (‭Acts‬ ‭20‬:‭35‬ KJV)

It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things. (‭Romans‬ ‭15‬:‭27‬ KJV)

Yea, it hath been their good pleasure; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, they owe it to them also to minister unto them in carnal things. (‭Romans‬ ‭15‬:‭27‬ ASV)

I have shown you in every way, by laboring like this, that you must support the weak. And remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’ ” (‭Acts‬ ‭20‬:‭35‬ NKJV)

He used these translation for his assertion...the words ought is changed to must in Acts, and duty to owe in Rom., and I used the KJV. Both of these verses are for the poor saints in Jerusalem. I agree that we should help those in need, if they have no family to help, and situations where the whole community is in need. But handing over monies for a building, salaries, technology, song books and classroom booklets, doesn't leave much to help the poor.

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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

March 18th, 2016, 12:31 am #6

I had a conversation with an elder of a church of Christ regarding giving as a commandment on the first day of the week. He asserted that it is a commandment and it was part of our worship to God. We know that Jerusalem was experiencing famine, and that the various churches had offered to give to alleviate their suffering. The Corinthians had promised that they would help, but had never submitted the monies. Paul in his letters to them gave them instructions to lay by on the first day of the week, so there would be no collection when he came. He then instructed them that this was not a commandment, but they should be willing to help, as this would be pleasing to God. I was given verses Act 20:35 and Rom15:27, which he said proves we are to give as a commandment to the church on the first day of the week. Wouldn't a commandment take away the free will offering? How is the money collected being used? Is the majority going to the poor, widows and the fatherless? If it is a commandment and someone doesn't have the money to give, would they be sinning because they couldn't keep the commandment?

I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive. (‭Acts‬ ‭20‬:‭35‬ KJV)

It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things. (‭Romans‬ ‭15‬:‭27‬ KJV)

Yea, it hath been their good pleasure; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, they owe it to them also to minister unto them in carnal things. (‭Romans‬ ‭15‬:‭27‬ ASV)

I have shown you in every way, by laboring like this, that you must support the weak. And remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’ ” (‭Acts‬ ‭20‬:‭35‬ NKJV)

He used these translation for his assertion...the words ought is changed to must in Acts, and duty to owe in Rom., and I used the KJV. Both of these verses are for the poor saints in Jerusalem. I agree that we should help those in need, if they have no family to help, and situations where the whole community is in need. But handing over monies for a building, salaries, technology, song books and classroom booklets, doesn't leave much to help the poor.
Most of us have been willing to play the game because in the PT or post thief era no one asked you to support false teachers. My "investments" from 1962 to present have all been collected by people with a hidden agenda. That's what happens when you are a LEGALISTS and believe in the LAW of Laying By at Church. In the postmodern or postBiblical era which obsoletes your good congregation you need to obey Jesus and STAY AWAKE and resist thieves.

Respond or not it is KAIROS TIME when men get old people to sell their valuables to begin planting 60,000 new congregations. They claim to be ECUMENICAL which is the Kosmos or the ANTI-Christian World View and the kingdom of the Devil.

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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

March 21st, 2016, 12:07 am #7

"If there is a poor man with you, one of your brothers, in any of your towns in your land which the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart, nor close your hand from your poor brother; but you shall freely open your hand to him, and shall generously lend him sufficient for his need in whatever he lacks" (Deut. 15:7, 8-11).

H5670 abat aw-bat' A primitive root; to pawn; causatively to lend (on security); figuratively to entangle: borrow, break [ranks], fetch [a pledge], lend, X surely.

"Concerning budgets--it is now a mark of the identity of a scriptural church to have or not to have certain benevolent programs and missionary projects in the budget; but the time was when churches had no such problems, for there were no budgets. The apportionment of the contributions into a pre-arranged budget is comparatively new, and it met with opposition for the early writers of both the Gospel Advocate and the Firm Foundation, perhaps for the foreseen reason of what is happening now--an an issue develops on what may or may not be scripturally included in the budget, and the budget becomes a sacramental thing, the depository for the 'Lord's Money.'" (Foy E. Wallace, Jr., The Gospel for Today, p 552)

Alfred Edershiem notes of one of the tithes:

http://www.piney.com/Edersheim3.html

Thus 'no man might go on the Temple Mount with his staff,' as if on business or pleasure;
nor yet 'with shoes on his feet'--sandals only being allowed;
nor 'with the dust upon his feet';
nor 'with his scrip,' nor 'with money tied to him in his purse.'
Whatever he might wish to contribute either to the Temple, or for offerings, or for the poor must be carried by each 'in his hand,' possibly to indicate that the money about him was exclusively for an immediate sacred purpose.

It was probably for similar reasons that Jesus transferred these very ordinances to the disciples when engaged in the service of the real Temple.

The direction, 'Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves,' must mean, Go out in the same spirit and manner as you would to the Temple services, and fear not--'for the workman is worthy of his MEAT' (Matthew 10:9,10). In other words: Let this new Temple service be your only thought, undertaking and care.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

March 21st, 2016, 4:00 pm #8

I had a conversation with an elder of a church of Christ regarding giving as a commandment on the first day of the week. He asserted that it is a commandment and it was part of our worship to God. We know that Jerusalem was experiencing famine, and that the various churches had offered to give to alleviate their suffering. The Corinthians had promised that they would help, but had never submitted the monies. Paul in his letters to them gave them instructions to lay by on the first day of the week, so there would be no collection when he came. He then instructed them that this was not a commandment, but they should be willing to help, as this would be pleasing to God. I was given verses Act 20:35 and Rom15:27, which he said proves we are to give as a commandment to the church on the first day of the week. Wouldn't a commandment take away the free will offering? How is the money collected being used? Is the majority going to the poor, widows and the fatherless? If it is a commandment and someone doesn't have the money to give, would they be sinning because they couldn't keep the commandment?

I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive. (‭Acts‬ ‭20‬:‭35‬ KJV)

It hath pleased them verily; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, their duty is also to minister unto them in carnal things. (‭Romans‬ ‭15‬:‭27‬ KJV)

Yea, it hath been their good pleasure; and their debtors they are. For if the Gentiles have been made partakers of their spiritual things, they owe it to them also to minister unto them in carnal things. (‭Romans‬ ‭15‬:‭27‬ ASV)

I have shown you in every way, by laboring like this, that you must support the weak. And remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’ ” (‭Acts‬ ‭20‬:‭35‬ NKJV)

He used these translation for his assertion...the words ought is changed to must in Acts, and duty to owe in Rom., and I used the KJV. Both of these verses are for the poor saints in Jerusalem. I agree that we should help those in need, if they have no family to help, and situations where the whole community is in need. But handing over monies for a building, salaries, technology, song books and classroom booklets, doesn't leave much to help the poor.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

March 23rd, 2016, 2:22 pm #9

Justin Martyr spoke for all early churches which did not treat giving as an ACT of worship:

http://www.piney.com/FathJustinMFirstApology.html

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied And they who are well to do, and WILLING, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need.

The President was the presiding elder and he did not "take a cut."

Tertullian, Apology b. c. 155, /160, Carthage [now in Tunisia] d. after 220, , Carthage

http://www.piney.com/TertullianApology.html

In like manner, by public law you disgrace your state gods, putting them in the auction-catalogue, and making them a source of revenue. Men seek to get the Capitol, as they seek to get the herb market, under the voice of the crier, under the auction spear, under the registration of the quµstor.

Deity is struck off and farmed out to the highest bidder. But indeed lands burdened with tribute are of less value; men under the assessment of a poll-tax are less noble; for these things are the marks of servitude.

the more sacred is a god, the larger is the tax he pays. Majesty is made a source of gain.In the case of the gods, on the other hand, the sacredness is great in proportion to the tribute which they yield;


If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 1 Tim 6:3
he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 1 Tim 6:4
and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain. 1 Tim 6:5
But godliness with contentment is great gain. 1 Tim 6:6


Chapter XXXIX notes that:

The tried men of our elders preside over us, obtaining that honour not by purchase, but by established character. There is no buying and selling of any sort in the things of God.

Though we have our treasure-chest, it is not made up of purchase-money, as of a religion that has its price.
On the monthly day, if he likes, each puts in a small donation; but only if it be his pleasure, and only if he be able: for there is no compulsion; all is voluntary.


[Translator's note: On ordinary Sundays, "they laid by in store," apparently: one a month they offered]

This is consistent with Paul's demand: they laid by themselves in store until the money was called for and on one Sunday they put it into the hands of the messengers to Judea.

These gifts are, as it were, piety's deposit fund.

For they are not taken thence and spent on feasts,
and drinking-bouts,
and eating-houses,

but to support and bury poor people,
to supply the wants of boys and girls destitute of means and parents,
and of old persons confined now to the house;
such, too, as have suffered shipwreck;
and if there happen to be any in the mines,
or banished to the islands,
or shut up in the prisons,

for nothing but their fidelity to the cause of God's Church,
they become the nurslings of their confession.
But it is mainly the deeds of a love so noble that lead many to put a brand upon us.<font>
</font>
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