Is Jesus Just ANOTHER god?

Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

August 5th, 2017, 11:46 pm #81

Dave said above:
God gave all power to Jesus, and God still is in charge. THAT MEANS....read slowly...JESUS and GOD has the POWER. WHY??? [emphasis mine, d.c.]
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]A faulty statement:

(1) Dave believes that when God gave ALL power to Jesus, Jesus became God.
(2) "God is in charge" is correct: God the Father is greater than Jesus.
(3) "God is in charge" means Jesus is in subordination (Heb. 5:8,9)--they're not equal.
(4) "JESUS and GOD" is correctly stated -- two separate beings.
(5) "JESUS and GOD has" is grammatically incorrect--Dave is making Jesus God

No, Bill, the Bible does not teach that Jesus IS God. The apostatizing bishops of Rome decreed that man-made creed in the 4th century. "All things are possible with God" would not change the truth that God sent the Messiah to earth. God did not send Himself to be born (become flesh) or become a baby and to increase "in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man" (Luke 2:52).[/color]
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

August 7th, 2017, 2:55 am #82

I'm sorry to say that you are indeed discounting (or maybe you prefer "rejecting" or "ignoring") those verses that teach that Jesus IS God. Those verses are there, but you're just in denial. You need to get past that denial.

The Bible teaches that Jesus is the Son of God. The Bible teaches that Jesus is the Son of man. The Bible teaches that Jesus IS God. How can ALL this be possible? It's because the Bible also teaches that ALL things are possible with God.
In "Silence is Golden" (August 5 2017, 4:47 PM), Bill posted:
Jesus was the image of God on earth, because God, being Eternal Spirit, could not reveal His true appearance to man lest man die. Physical man could not stand in the actual presence of God. Therefore, God/the Word took upon Himself the form of the physical man Jesus (the Word became flesh). The verses we've mentioned before attest to that: mighty God/everlasting Father/Prince of Peace, God with us, Jesus and the Father are One, he who has seen Jesus has seen the Father, etc.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Many in Christendom use these and other quotes from the Scripture in their attempt to prove that the Pope's Trinity creed is correct.

(1) Mighty God. The reference to God is that of "the Almighty God" (Gen. 17[1]; Ezek. 10[5]; Rev. 19[15]. Jesus is not referred to as "God" in the Bible; much less as "the Almighty God." Jesus was prophesied to be mighty god or mighty ruler of his kingdom.

(2) Everlasting Father. Only Isaiah 9:6 mentions this expression and is not referencerd anywhere else in the Bible. Yes, there are numerous references to God as "the Father of Jesus Christ" Rom. 15[6]; 2 Cor. 1[3]; 2 Cor. 11[31]; Eph. 1:3,17; and many more). Jesus in Isaiah 9:6 in context was prophesied as "the father" (originator) of the endless age of his rule in his kingdon (the church).

(3) Prince of Peace. Being named or called "Prince of Peace" is appropriate in Jesus' case. But don't ever insult God the Father with equating Him to being "Prince of Peace. After all, the Father is "the God of Peace" (Rom. 15[33]; Rom. 16[20]; Phil. 4[9]; 1 Thess. 5[23]; Heb. 13[20]).

(4) God with us. "God with us" is not a sentence. No, "God with us" does not make Jesus God. Rather, that means that with the presence of Jesus, God is with us.

(5) Jesus and the Father are One. The word "One" is capitalized? God and Jesus are not conjoined. The are united; they are one in purpose, but not as one being.

(6) He who has seen Jesus has seen the Father. This is a desperate claim. Keep in mind that Jesus is THE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD.

Each of these individual claims in the attempt to make Jesus God deserves to be discussed in more detail. None of the above declares that Jesus is God no matter how deep and intense the perception is.[/color]
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Dave
Dave

August 8th, 2017, 3:54 am #83

Revelations 22 where it is stated
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
is attributed to Jesus.

where in Revelations 1
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty....is attributed to God, possibly Jesus also.


They sound similar, don't they???

Is confusion a contradiction or what God had in mind? God wants to show you that His Son is just as He is.

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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

August 8th, 2017, 1:11 pm #84

Heb. 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Heb. 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of OUR FAITH; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Heb. 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

August 9th, 2017, 6:49 am #85

Revelations 22 where it is stated
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
is attributed to Jesus.

where in Revelations 1
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty....is attributed to God, possibly Jesus also.


They sound similar, don't they???

Is confusion a contradiction or what God had in mind? God wants to show you that His Son is just as He is.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Dave,

Yes, there are titles that apply to both (1) God and (2) Jesus.

(1) But there are titles that apply only to God: Almighty ... the Father ... the head of Christ ... the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob ... the God of heaven ... the God of your fathers ... the God of Israel ... the God of peace .. the God of David ... etc. These titles do not apply to Jesus.

(2) There are titles that apply only to Jesus: the Son of God ... the Son of man ... the Christ ... the image of God ... the image of the invisible God ... the prophet of Nazareth ... Prince of Peace ... the author and finisher of our faith ... the mediator of the new covenant ... the son of David ... the Son of the living God ... the Son of the Blessed ... the chosen of God ... the Saviour of the world ... the power of God ... the wisdom of God ... the Son of the Father ... etc. These titles do not apply to God.

Yes, the titles in some passages in Revelation apply to Jesus. The titles in the passage (Rev. 1:8) apply to God, the Almighty God -- you will not find a single passage that refers to Jesus as the Almighty God.

The title in Isaiah 44:6 applies to God as the man Jesus did not exist then -- "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

The title in Isaiah 48:12 applies to God as the man Jesus did not exist then -- "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.

There are those who make the assumption that when the same title applies to both the Father (God) and the Son (Jesus Christ), they must both be God. However, there is no biblical justification on which to base that assumption. There are same titles that are used for God, Christ and even men: "Lord" is a good example. If other titles apply to God, Christ and men without making all of them into “one God,” then there is no reason to assume that this particular title would mean they were one God unless Scripture specifically told us so. Well, the Scripture does not.[/color]
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Dave
Dave

August 9th, 2017, 5:03 pm #86

Revelations 22
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
is attributed to Jesus.

Revelations 1
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty....is attributed to God, possibly Jesus also.

Revelations 22 is attributed to Jesus. God is the ONLY beginning and end.
Jesus, HIMSELF, called HIMSELF this title.

Jesus is God.

So, Donnie, keep talking about how your false logic implies that God is the Son, and God sits on the right hand side of Himself.

YOUR FALSE logic...that is all it will ever be.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

August 9th, 2017, 11:34 pm #87

If you accept the fact that Jesus is the Son of the Living God, and you want to make Jesus separate from God, then is Jesus just another god??? There is the One Living God, so is Jesus just a god? Is Jesus inferior to His Father?

Matthew 28
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

So when we say that Jesus was given ALL power, does that stipulate that He is less than God???

He is either One with God, and therefore; GOD, or He is just another god, as Donnie Cruz has claimed.
The beginning or Arche of the Gospel of the Kingdom:

Col. 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Col. 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross,
.....by him to RECONCILE all things unto himself;
.....by him, I say, whether they be things in earth,
.....or things in heaven.
Col. 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works,
.....yet now hath he reconciled
Col. 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death,
.....to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Jesus was not the firstborn from the dead and the church has not been empowered and therefore He did not have the preeminence or throne from eternity:

Matt. 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter,
.....and upon this rock I WILL BUILD MY church; [kingdom]
.....and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it

Mark 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you,
.....That there be some of them that stand here,
.....which shall not taste of death,
.....till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

THE BEGINNING IS DEFINED MANY TIMES:

Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
Mark 1:2 As it is written in the prophets,
.....Behold, I send my messenger before thy face,
.....which SHALL prepare thy WAY before thee.

The WAY is called a SECT: It BEGAN when the SECT of the Scribes and Pharisees was disarmed.

Beginning g746. arche, ar-khay´; from 756; (properly abstract) a commencement, or (concretely) chief (in various applications of order, time, place, or rank): — beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule.



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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

August 10th, 2017, 3:22 am #88

Revelations 22
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
is attributed to Jesus.

Revelations 1
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty....is attributed to God, possibly Jesus also.

Revelations 22 is attributed to Jesus. God is the ONLY beginning and end.
Jesus, HIMSELF, called HIMSELF this title.

Jesus is God.

So, Donnie, keep talking about how your false logic implies that God is the Son, and God sits on the right hand side of Himself.

YOUR FALSE logic...that is all it will ever be.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Dave,

There's no argument in the sharing of certain titles (including "first and last," etc.) between:

----- (1) God
---------- and ------------
----- (2) the Son of God.


The separate Beings we're referring to are:

----- (1) Jehovah: the name of God
---------- and -------------
----- (2) Jesus Christ: the name of the Son of God.


Just remember John 1:14 -- the LOGOS (WORD) OF GOD was what became flesh: Jesus born 2000 years ago. And there was no Jesus prior to that. (NOTE: "word" is spoken or written.) Even during creation, "GOD SAID:" numerous times in the 1st chapter of Genesis. Indeed, God SPOKE. The Word of God (that became flesh in John 1:14) was in the beginning with God. THE LOGOS OF GOD -- you will find this in Revelation 19:13.

In the book of Revelation, God and Jesus Christ are mentioned, not as conjoined Beings, but separately. In the book of John, it's the same: expressions such as "my Father and I"; "my Father" is mentioned over 60 times in the N.T.

That "God sits on the right hand side of Himself" is CERTAINLY YOUR LOGIC when you substitute "God" for "the man Jesus Christ" -- not mine, Dave.

"God is the Son" is certainly NOT my logic. It is YOUR logic when you say that Jesus the Son of God is God.[/color]
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Dave
Dave

August 10th, 2017, 3:09 pm #89

Those two titles, the beginning and the end (the first and the last), the Alpha and the Omega describe God.....NO OTHER can claim such.

These Scriptures speak of both God and Christ as being ONE GOD.

Just a few verses, yes, but that is all I need.

YOU mentioned that junk about God sitting on the right hand of God. It will be attributed to your logic.

God being the son is YOUR logic, and will be attributed to you.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

August 11th, 2017, 4:06 am #90

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Dave,

The Scripture agrees with you when you say both "God and Christ." The conjunction "and" [ask Bill Crump about conjunctions] identifies THEM (not HIM) as two separate Beings. The problem, though, with the grammar expert [Bill] is that the conjunction "and" loses its significance completely whenever BOTH God AND Christ are mentioned in numerous passages.

One Being (God the Father) sent another Being, the Messiah, to earth. God did not become flesh as the Pope and his followers believe. Instead, it was the WORD (LOGOS) OF God (what God SPOKE) that was made flesh -- that occurred only two millennia ago.

The Scripture disagrees with and disproves Dave's perception/notion of BOTH God and Jesus Christ the Son of God as "being ONE GOD."

The Scripture can/does clearly teach that there is only ONE GOD -- not 2-Gods-in-One.

------ Mal. 2[10] ... hath not one God created us?
------ Mark 12[32] ... for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
------ Rom. 3[30] ... it is one God, which shall justify....
------ 1 Cor. 8[6] But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; AND one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
------ Eph. 4[6] One God and Father of all, who is above all....
------ 1 Tim. 2[5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
------ Jas. 2[19] ... there is one God....

When Dave does not believe the Scripture saying that the MAN Christ Jesus is sitting on the right hand of God, it is conclusive that Dave believes that it is God [Jesus is God, according to Dave] sitting on the right hand of God -- now: that is Dave's fallacious and unscriptural logic.

When Dave says that the Son of God (Jesus) is God, it is conclusive that Dave believes that God is the Son of God -- now: that is Dave's fallacious, unscriptural logic.

"These Scriptures speak of both God and Christ as being ONE GOD," Dave says. That's Dave talking, not the Scripture.[/color]
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