Dave
Dave

August 5th, 2017, 6:47 pm #71

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]There are no other verses that teach that Jesus is God.

The bishops of Rome, the impending Roman Catholic Church and its papacy, did that for you in the 4th century.

About 50 verses declaring that Jesus is the Son of God and about 90 verses declaring that Jesus is the Son of man are more than enough to tell you about the Messiah sent by God to earth.

Bill, there is no stunt to use many, many, many verses to nullify a group of a few isolated verses that do not even prove the papal creed to be truth.

Let Jesus Christ be "the Son of God." God did not send the Messiah to make him co-God.

Isn't it enough that God (the Giver) gave Jesus (the receiver) ALL power and authority. What about trying your best to NOT CONFUSE God with the Son of God?[/color]
Donnie, when you see that verse which says...
Matthew 28
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.


...what does that mean to you?

Who has power?
What reach is that power?

God gave Jesus that power, you would say?
So would I.

No Donnie, God did not give God that power. He gave Jesus that power. THAT POWER...MEANING ALL POWER...EVERYWHERE...over EVERTHING.

There isn't a different kingdom nor different authority....one for Jesus and a different one for God. THEY ARE ONE!!!
Quote
Share

Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

August 5th, 2017, 7:30 pm #72

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Dave,

You completely forgot the third (3rd) "+ ONE" more. What happened to "1+1+1 = 1"?

I strongly believe that ALL power was given by God to Jesus.

You're the one who is very confused. You are apparently confusing the Giver of ALL power and authority with the recipient.

One who gives is not the receiver. Just as God that sent the Messiah was not the Messiah.

Your concept is definitely an obfuscation.

When you say that God gave Jesus ALL power [which is correct] and say that Jesus is God [which is incorrect], then to you God gave God ALL power [which conclusion is false and incorrect].

Analyze your faulty logic and erroneous conclusion.[/color]
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

August 5th, 2017, 7:52 pm #73

Donnie said "When the man Christ Jesus ascended to heaven, his gender did not change -- still a man, not a woman, even if incorruptible and not of human flesh. His position has not changed -- still the Son of God."

Immaturity is rampant....evidenced here....again.

NEVER was the gender of Christ questioned. That is Donnie, trying to steer the attention away from his earlier absurd statements. Never was it questioned that of gender (God and Jesus are HE). Donnie has said that Jesus is a man in heaven now. Man, being that He isn't of divinity, of God. Donnie believes that Jesus is the Son of God, and therefore being as such, Jesus can ONLY BE GOD. So, the interchangeable (God sitting on the right hand side of God) immature thoughts that Donnie has is just the way Donnie goes when He is beyond the arm of facts.

More of Donnie's absurd irrational? He says that God was not with God in the beginning. Tf you believe what God says in John 1, which is that The Word was in the beginning, and then the Word became Jesus in John 1 verse 14. It also states in John 1 and Colossians that everything was made by and through Jesus, thus making him Creator, thus making Jesus God.....NOT A CO-GOD.

The passages in Revelation STATE BEYOND A SHADOW OF A DOUBT that JESUS is the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end. Only One other can make that declaration....GOD.
THUS...JESUS is GOD. There is no two Gods and no co-Gods.

Beyond proof that Donnie is floundering and grasping at straws??? When anyone trying to defend the Word state that there are only a "few verses' which support your statement, you know they have run the course with their discourse. Donnie, it only takes one verse, and no it will never be out of context.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Dave,

But that one verse must agree with all the other passages!!!. You know very well as I do that there is no contradiction in the Scripture. When that one verse "seems to disagree" with the others, then one should seek an explanation as to why it seems that way. In the end, that one verse does not contradict; it's man's interpretation that contradicts.

You are associating the idea of being a man as someone with flesh even after death and resurrection as in the case of Christ. When the scriptures say that the MAN Christ Jesus is sitting on the right hand of God, leave it at that. It is still truth.

The MAN Christ Jesus is the mediator between God and men. As long as he mediates and intercedes for us, he is still "the Son of God" and "the Son of man." His position does not change!!!

Acts 7:56 -- "the Son of man standing on the right hand of God."

Romans 8:34 -- "Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us."

The Scripture is speaking to you, Dave.[/color]
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

August 5th, 2017, 7:59 pm #74

Messiah would be the ROCK, God's Right Hand, God's shoulder. Jesus said that truth is hidden from the clergy OF the World because the do not have the right to know. Matthew 11. Those lost spirits Jesus was sent to seek and saves will be SEALED.

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

They are added to CHRIST'S Church because HE has the only authority to accept DISCIPLE. Disciples are further marked by not attending the mass, milling multitudes to WORSHIP THEMSELVES.


Bill said:
Those "few" verses convey just as much important information as the "many" verses do. The "many" verses teach that Jesus is the Son of God. The "few" verses also teach that God and Jesus are one and the same. If you accept the "many" verses but discount the "few" verses, because the latter conflict with your personal beliefs, then you are most definitely playing the "numbers game."
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]RESPONSE: Ken Sublett (besides being very knowledgeable of the Scripture) can be funny. There are several passages that make reference to the MAN Christ Jesus "sitting on the right hand of God." But there are those who deny that truth and instead claim that Jesus Christ is "God" who is "sitting on the right hand of God." So, is it God sitting on the right hand of God???? Ken illustrates it best: "When I sit down on my right hand it isn't pretty!"

In response to anyone who pits the "few" verses against the "many" verses, that should not happen because the Scripture does not contradict itself. The Scripture itself teaches the Christian to "study" and be "a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" (II Timothy 2:15).

Ken has something to say about those who have this attitude: "That explains why family and friends or preachers and elders go glassy eyed when you quote too much Scripture to them." [Taken from another thread, "God the Father and Jesus Christ the Son" by Dianna Howell (sub-topic: "Image of God" also by Dianna)]

For example:

(1) Scripture (even common logic) says: "God" is not the same as "the Son of God."
(2) Scripture (even common logic) says: "God" is not the same as "the image of God."
(3) Scripture says: "God the Son" ... NOT!!! The Pope declared that!
(4) Scripture says: that Jesus has a God.
(5) Scripture says: that Jesus has a head.
(6) Scripture says: that Jesus has a Father.
(7) Scripture says: that the God of Jesus is also the God of the believers.

(8) ... OK, just a few of numerous scriptural teachings.

There are some 50 references to Jesus being "the Son of God."
There are some 90 references to Jesus being "the Son of man."

There are a "few" verses [Bill's idea] that some folks think teach "the Trinity" concept or creed while "many" verses do not. Without elaborating further, it's time to examine these few verses and consider the words from the original text, the not-errorless scribes or text transcribers, the prejudices and pre-conceived theories and notions of Trinity-influenced translators -- born centuries later than the original manuscripts -- who manipulated certain passages of the Scripture.

It is also time for these folks to do their own researches and seek any valid explanation as to why certain passages seemingly contradict other passages. The truth of the matter is that there is no contradiction in the passages of Scripture. [/color]
Quote
Like
Share

Bill
Bill

August 5th, 2017, 8:47 pm #75

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Dave,

I have quoted hundreds of passages that debunk man-made creeds and misconceptions. Unfortunately, there are those who simply ignore them or just speed-read them with little or no attempt to validate their long-held beliefs vs. the scriptures.

The Scripture is my defense!!! Not the popes (and the papal succession) and the RCC tradition. Not Rick Warren. Not Max Lucado. Not denominational manuals.

I have quoted you passages indicating "this man" (Christ Jesus) "sitting on the right hand of God." But you want to change that to "God" ... "sitting on the right hand of God."

The countless references to Jesus Christ being "the Son of God" or "the Son of man" as truth simply cannot be changed otherwise.

Equating "the Son of God" with "God the Son" DOES NOT COMPUTE mathematically, logically and scripturally.

Your conclusion "that Jesus CAN ONLY BE GOD" is contrary to the truth that Jesus is THE IMAGE of God (II Corinthians 4:4), THE IMAGE of the invisible God (Colossians 1:15). [/color]
Jesus was the image of God on earth, because God, being Eternal Spirit, could not reveal His true appearance to man lest man die. Physical man could not stand in the actual presence of God. Therefore, God/the Word took upon Himself the form of the physical man Jesus (the Word became flesh). The verses we've mentioned before attest to that: mighty God/everlasting Father/Prince of Peace, God with us, Jesus and the Father are One, he who has seen Jesus has seen the Father, etc.

To the limited, physical mind, Jesus as God does not compute mathematically or logically. Likewise, human genetics says that the Father cannot be the Son and vice versa. But the limited, human mind fails to comprehend the fact that the spiritual realm of the Eternal transcends all the physical laws of mathematics, human logic, and human genetics; none of those physical laws apply in the spiritual realm, because with God, all things are possible. Therefore, it is useless to argue that Jesus is not God based on human mathematics, human logic, and human genetics. Believe what the Scriptures teach, that Jesus is not only the Son of God, but that Jesus also IS God.
Quote
Share

Bill
Bill

August 5th, 2017, 8:59 pm #76

Bill said:
Those "few" verses convey just as much important information as the "many" verses do. The "many" verses teach that Jesus is the Son of God. The "few" verses also teach that God and Jesus are one and the same. If you accept the "many" verses but discount the "few" verses, because the latter conflict with your personal beliefs, then you are most definitely playing the "numbers game."
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]RESPONSE: Ken Sublett (besides being very knowledgeable of the Scripture) can be funny. There are several passages that make reference to the MAN Christ Jesus "sitting on the right hand of God." But there are those who deny that truth and instead claim that Jesus Christ is "God" who is "sitting on the right hand of God." So, is it God sitting on the right hand of God???? Ken illustrates it best: "When I sit down on my right hand it isn't pretty!"

In response to anyone who pits the "few" verses against the "many" verses, that should not happen because the Scripture does not contradict itself. The Scripture itself teaches the Christian to "study" and be "a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" (II Timothy 2:15).

Ken has something to say about those who have this attitude: "That explains why family and friends or preachers and elders go glassy eyed when you quote too much Scripture to them." [Taken from another thread, "God the Father and Jesus Christ the Son" by Dianna Howell (sub-topic: "Image of God" also by Dianna)]

For example:

(1) Scripture (even common logic) says: "God" is not the same as "the Son of God."
(2) Scripture (even common logic) says: "God" is not the same as "the image of God."
(3) Scripture says: "God the Son" ... NOT!!! The Pope declared that!
(4) Scripture says: that Jesus has a God.
(5) Scripture says: that Jesus has a head.
(6) Scripture says: that Jesus has a Father.
(7) Scripture says: that the God of Jesus is also the God of the believers.

(8) ... OK, just a few of numerous scriptural teachings.

There are some 50 references to Jesus being "the Son of God."
There are some 90 references to Jesus being "the Son of man."

There are a "few" verses [Bill's idea] that some folks think teach "the Trinity" concept or creed while "many" verses do not. Without elaborating further, it's time to examine these few verses and consider the words from the original text, the not-errorless scribes or text transcribers, the prejudices and pre-conceived theories and notions of Trinity-influenced translators -- born centuries later than the original manuscripts -- who manipulated certain passages of the Scripture.

It is also time for these folks to do their own researches and seek any valid explanation as to why certain passages seemingly contradict other passages. The truth of the matter is that there is no contradiction in the passages of Scripture. [/color]
You evidently can't stop playing the numbers game by listing X number of Son-of-God verses and Y number of Son-of-man verses. You're still discounting the "few" verses that teach that Jesus IS God. None of the verses that you've quoted and will endlessly continue to quote will ever nullify, void, or cover up those verses teaching that Jesus IS God.

Learn to accept the fact that Jesus is the Son of God; that Jesus is the Son of man; and that Jesus IS God.
Quote
Share

Dave
Dave

August 5th, 2017, 9:12 pm #77

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Dave,

But that one verse must agree with all the other passages!!!. You know very well as I do that there is no contradiction in the Scripture. When that one verse "seems to disagree" with the others, then one should seek an explanation as to why it seems that way. In the end, that one verse does not contradict; it's man's interpretation that contradicts.

You are associating the idea of being a man as someone with flesh even after death and resurrection as in the case of Christ. When the scriptures say that the MAN Christ Jesus is sitting on the right hand of God, leave it at that. It is still truth.

The MAN Christ Jesus is the mediator between God and men. As long as he mediates and intercedes for us, he is still "the Son of God" and "the Son of man." His position does not change!!!

Acts 7:56 -- "the Son of man standing on the right hand of God."

Romans 8:34 -- "Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us."

The Scripture is speaking to you, Dave.[/color]
The Scripture has ALWAYS spoke to me, and that is why I continue to post at this ill-fated website. You pose your opinion as the Truth, and it doesn't line up as such. The Scriptures do not contradict Itself. Now, stick to what I mentioned in my post. Go from there. Reply to those facts and Truth, instead of this emotional tirade of yours.
Quote
Share

Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

August 5th, 2017, 9:13 pm #78

You evidently can't stop playing the numbers game by listing X number of Son-of-God verses and Y number of Son-of-man verses. You're still discounting the "few" verses that teach that Jesus IS God. None of the verses that you've quoted and will endlessly continue to quote will ever nullify, void, or cover up those verses teaching that Jesus IS God.

Learn to accept the fact that Jesus is the Son of God; that Jesus is the Son of man; and that Jesus IS God.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]I will never discount any verse or verses that teach that Jesus is God. No, not one!!! I just haven't seen one yet. I would stick with Jesus being the Son of God for I know that being "God" (the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) and being "the Son of God" are NOT the same. Jesus was not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Bill, your father is not you as his son. Simple enough that a third grader can understand it. Trinitarians complicate God's nature needlessly.

There is only one God -- the Father of Jesus Christ.

God has only one begotten Son -- his name is Jesus Christ, not Jehovah.[/color]
Quote
Like
Share

Dave
Dave

August 5th, 2017, 9:32 pm #79

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Dave,

You completely forgot the third (3rd) "+ ONE" more. What happened to "1+1+1 = 1"?

I strongly believe that ALL power was given by God to Jesus.

You're the one who is very confused. You are apparently confusing the Giver of ALL power and authority with the recipient.

One who gives is not the receiver. Just as God that sent the Messiah was not the Messiah.

Your concept is definitely an obfuscation.

When you say that God gave Jesus ALL power [which is correct] and say that Jesus is God [which is incorrect], then to you God gave God ALL power [which conclusion is false and incorrect].

Analyze your faulty logic and erroneous conclusion.[/color]
God gave all power to Jesus, and God still is in charge. THAT MEANS....read slowly...JESUS and GOD has the POWER. WHY???

JESUS=GOD

Revelations 22
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Revelations 1
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

JESUS
Quote
Share

Bill
Bill

August 5th, 2017, 11:20 pm #80

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]I will never discount any verse or verses that teach that Jesus is God. No, not one!!! I just haven't seen one yet. I would stick with Jesus being the Son of God for I know that being "God" (the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) and being "the Son of God" are NOT the same. Jesus was not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Bill, your father is not you as his son. Simple enough that a third grader can understand it. Trinitarians complicate God's nature needlessly.

There is only one God -- the Father of Jesus Christ.

God has only one begotten Son -- his name is Jesus Christ, not Jehovah.[/color]
I'm sorry to say that you are indeed discounting (or maybe you prefer "rejecting" or "ignoring") those verses that teach that Jesus IS God. Those verses are there, but you're just in denial. You need to get past that denial.

The Bible teaches that Jesus is the Son of God. The Bible teaches that Jesus is the Son of man. The Bible teaches that Jesus IS God. How can ALL this be possible? It's because the Bible also teaches that ALL things are possible with God.
Quote
Share