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October 24th, 2012, 10:41 pm #61

So now Dave has turned away from the Bible and has gone over to authors such as Paulo Coelho for his "inspiration."
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

October 25th, 2012, 8:28 pm #62

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]I am troubled by even members of the body (church) of Christ who, along with their "faith only" denominational friends, share and proclaim a common belief in the religious world that good works are not necessary in the "Christian's salvation."

These same members of the Lord's church gladly sing popular Christian rock songs that it's "NOT by human endeavor" because Christ paid for it ALL on the cross. ALL ... implying that present and future SINS are automatically forgiven even without asking for forgiveness and without repenting.

The Scripture tells me differently that Christians -- members of the body of Christ -- are to maintain good works or works of righteousness. There are numerous passages that support this truth. After all, the Holy Scripture is God's truth.

Unless we are able to to distinguish that man goes through 3 stages or periods in his journey to eternity, we will never understand or diminish or eliminate the conflict concerning man's salvation.

The three (3) stages are as follows:

(1) Past Salvation -- the CONVERSION PROCESS
(2) Present Salvation -- the current stage of Christian living
(3) Future Salvation -- the Judgment that it's either heaven or hell.


This current topic is about the CONVERSION PROCESS[/color] -- the first stage. Do you agree that good works are NOT required for one outside of Christ to be CONVERTED? A correct assessment of this premise will prove that FAITH is essential to obtaining redemption in the blood of Christ.

Common passages used are:

(1) Without including the following verse 10 is Ephesians 2:8,9 -- "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast." (NIV)

(2) "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" (KJV)

The Bible tells us: "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." (II Tim. 2:15, KJV)

When we rightly divide the word of truth, there would be no biblical conflict.

Again, this topic is about CONVERSION. Be assured that I am not a "faith only" Christian. But I would like to propose that in conversion, good works are not necessary. But I would also like to propose that doing "good works" has its place in our present salvation.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

October 26th, 2012, 6:47 pm #63

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]I am troubled by even members of the body (church) of Christ who, along with their "faith only" denominational friends, share and proclaim a common belief in the religious world that good works are not necessary in the "Christian's salvation."

These same members of the Lord's church gladly sing popular Christian rock songs that it's "NOT by human endeavor" because Christ paid for it ALL on the cross. ALL ... implying that present and future SINS are automatically forgiven even without asking for forgiveness and without repenting.

The Scripture tells me differently that Christians -- members of the body of Christ -- are to maintain good works or works of righteousness. There are numerous passages that support this truth. After all, the Holy Scripture is God's truth.

Unless we are able to to distinguish that man goes through 3 stages or periods in his journey to eternity, we will never understand or diminish or eliminate the conflict concerning man's salvation.

The three (3) stages are as follows:

(1) Past Salvation -- the CONVERSION PROCESS
(2) Present Salvation -- the current stage of Christian living
(3) Future Salvation -- the Judgment that it's either heaven or hell.


This current topic is about the CONVERSION PROCESS[/color] -- the first stage. Do you agree that good works are NOT required for one outside of Christ to be CONVERTED? A correct assessment of this premise will prove that FAITH is essential to obtaining redemption in the blood of Christ.

Common passages used are:

(1) Without including the following verse 10 is Ephesians 2:8,9 -- "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast." (NIV)

(2) "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" (KJV)

The Bible tells us: "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." (II Tim. 2:15, KJV)

When we rightly divide the word of truth, there would be no biblical conflict.

Again, this topic is about CONVERSION. Be assured that I am not a "faith only" Christian. But I would like to propose that in conversion, good works are not necessary. But I would also like to propose that doing "good works" has its place in our present salvation.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

October 26th, 2012, 11:52 pm #64

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]I am troubled by even members of the body (church) of Christ who, along with their "faith only" denominational friends, share and proclaim a common belief in the religious world that good works are not necessary in the "Christian's salvation."

These same members of the Lord's church gladly sing popular Christian rock songs that it's "NOT by human endeavor" because Christ paid for it ALL on the cross. ALL ... implying that present and future SINS are automatically forgiven even without asking for forgiveness and without repenting.

The Scripture tells me differently that Christians -- members of the body of Christ -- are to maintain good works or works of righteousness. There are numerous passages that support this truth. After all, the Holy Scripture is God's truth.

Unless we are able to to distinguish that man goes through 3 stages or periods in his journey to eternity, we will never understand or diminish or eliminate the conflict concerning man's salvation.

The three (3) stages are as follows:

(1) Past Salvation -- the CONVERSION PROCESS
(2) Present Salvation -- the current stage of Christian living
(3) Future Salvation -- the Judgment that it's either heaven or hell.


This current topic is about the CONVERSION PROCESS[/color] -- the first stage. Do you agree that good works are NOT required for one outside of Christ to be CONVERTED? A correct assessment of this premise will prove that FAITH is essential to obtaining redemption in the blood of Christ.

Common passages used are:

(1) Without including the following verse 10 is Ephesians 2:8,9 -- "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast." (NIV)

(2) "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" (KJV)

The Bible tells us: "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." (II Tim. 2:15, KJV)

When we rightly divide the word of truth, there would be no biblical conflict.

Again, this topic is about CONVERSION. Be assured that I am not a "faith only" Christian. But I would like to propose that in conversion, good works are not necessary. But I would also like to propose that doing "good works" has its place in our present salvation.
When God breaths out His Spirit or Mind is like the Wind or a person's breath: it is invisible and inaudible but carries great power, The Son of God is the Word of God to all trinitarian inventors. Jesus Speaks or makes audible that SPIRIT without measure (metron maybe since there is nothing in meter to sing).

The original apostles and later Paul had to SEE and HEAR Jesus now named The Holy Spirit (1 John 2) to qualify them to see and hear the risen Jesus of Nazareth (Acts 22:8) to qualify them (ONLY) to leave us a memory of THEIR inspired teachings. The Spirit (breath) produces the audible or written Word. Anyone who says that "a" spirit told them to ignore the prophets and apostles is a demonic spirit.

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Joined: January 28th, 2012, 10:19 pm

November 5th, 2012, 2:16 am #65


Those who regard themselves as leaders should follow the example of Paul. The Spirit said this in explicit words found in Phil 3. Paul penned the words indicating that he set aside his training and upbringing and all the associated esteem. This setting aside was done to further the all encompassing goal of gaining Christ. Those "leaders" of various digression today would do well to take heed to this passage. Paul says he counts "all things" as rubbish compared to gaining Christ. It appears to me that many of our issues today have begun because certain "leaders" want the approval and praise of men inside and outside the Lords church. How sad!

Consider also the instructions of the Spirit through Paul in II Thess 3. He gives a significant statement in vs 9 saying that they are examples to be followed. There is no hint of pleasing men be they social, political or religious leaders - just the plain word of God.

Fear God and keep his commandments for this is the whole purpose of man.

Comments Welcome
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Robert
Robert

November 18th, 2012, 6:54 pm #66

I am looking at Dave's Baptist text that Jesus was SAVED before he was baptized.

Maybe he will tell Donnie why Matthew 3:13-17 proves that one is saved BEFORE baptism.

The Baptists and their dupes simply have NO interest in understanding why Jesus wore filthy garments and was not pronounced a Son until He came up OUT of the water.
My name is Robert,
I have been trying to answer some questions I have. Some of those questions have led me to this and various other sites. Ken has encountered me once or twice before on these sites, and even, I think, tried to address another question I had. When I came upon Ken's statements, included below in exact copied quotes, I was astounded at the inference that Jesus, God's son, worthy of worship even as a baby, needed salvation. I am astonished by the mere suggestion that such a concept is even possible.

"I am looking at Dave's Baptist text that Jesus was SAVED before he was baptized."
"Maybe he will tell Donnie why Matthew 3:13-17 proves that one is saved BEFORE baptism."
"The Baptists and their dupes simply have NO interest in understanding why Jesus wore filthy garments and was not pronounced a Son until He came up OUT of the water."

Please Ken, if you intend to address this question, keep your answer to fewer than 500 words, and in the English language - and please do not read any antagonism or animosity into my written word - I intend none. It is merely a question.
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Robert
Robert

November 18th, 2012, 7:33 pm #67

Donnie and Ken are right, in my opinion. Baptism is no more a work than Faith and Belief are works. I thought I was going to have to agree with Dr. Crump, a very scary thought, but then I saw that he was wrong on his take on baptism. Salvation does not come after baptism, it comes at the point of baptism. We "arise to walk in newness of life," not arise to find newness of life at some point down the road.
What if a person falsely believes they have received salvation prior to baptism and goes to be baptized thinking they are merely being baptized as a sign of obedience to Christ? Are they truly saved at that point (after their baptism by immersion) or are they still without salvation?
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

November 18th, 2012, 7:54 pm #68

My name is Robert,
I have been trying to answer some questions I have. Some of those questions have led me to this and various other sites. Ken has encountered me once or twice before on these sites, and even, I think, tried to address another question I had. When I came upon Ken's statements, included below in exact copied quotes, I was astounded at the inference that Jesus, God's son, worthy of worship even as a baby, needed salvation. I am astonished by the mere suggestion that such a concept is even possible.

"I am looking at Dave's Baptist text that Jesus was SAVED before he was baptized."
"Maybe he will tell Donnie why Matthew 3:13-17 proves that one is saved BEFORE baptism."
"The Baptists and their dupes simply have NO interest in understanding why Jesus wore filthy garments and was not pronounced a Son until He came up OUT of the water."

Please Ken, if you intend to address this question, keep your answer to fewer than 500 words, and in the English language - and please do not read any antagonism or animosity into my written word - I intend none. It is merely a question.
2Corinthians 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

THE PROPHETIC TYPE

Zech 3:1 AND he shewed me Joshua [Jehovah-Savior] the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord,
<font color="#FFFFFF">.....
and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

Zech 3:2 And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

Zech 3:3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.

Zech 3:4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying,
.....Take away the filthy garments from him.
.....And unto him he said, Behold,
.....I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee,
.....and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.


Zech 3:5 And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head.
.....So they set a fair mitre upon his head,
.....and clothed him with garments.
.....And the angel of the Lord stood by.

Zech 3:6 And the angel of the Lord protested unto Joshua, saying,

Zech 3:7 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.


God pronounced Jesus of Nazareth (Joshua, the Branch) His Son only AFTER he was baptized.

Zech 3:8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee:
.....for they are men wondered at:
.....for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.

Zech 3:9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes<b>: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the Lord of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.</b>


This is the seven spirits OF God (Isaiah 11)

THE PROPHECY MADE MORE CERTAIN

Matt 3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.

Matt 3:14 But John forbade him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

Matt 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.


Jesus was taking on the sins of the whole world, past, present and future. Therefore, to fulfil the role of PRIEST Jesus would be baptized (washed) by John who was of the High Priestly family. You cannot be a priest of God without being baptized.

As with OUR baptism we are baptized into death.

Secondly, Jesus would Fully Preach baptism before He COMMANDED it of all people

Pleroo (g4137) play-ro'-o; from 4134; to make replete i.e. (lit.) to cram (a net), level up (a hollow), or (fig.) to furnish (or imbue, diffuse, influence), satisfy, execute (an office), finish (a period or task), verify (or coincide with a prediction), etc.: - accomplish, * after, (be) complete, end, expire, fill (up), fulfill, (be, make) full (come), fully preach, perfect, supply.

Matt 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

Matt 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
</font>
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Robert
Robert

November 18th, 2012, 8:02 pm #69

Yes, the obedience from the heart does indeed include baptism.

Baptism is nothing like the works of the (Mosaic) law, in that it does not merit salvation, although is act of our dying to sins and being reborn. God wouldn't "owe" us anything for baptism, since it is the expression of our faith. One could, for example, keep all the feats and all the 10 commandments and have a real good feeling about salvation, almost to the extent of our believing that we have "earned" salvation. Not so with baptism. Even though baptism is the introduction to the body of Christ, there is nothing about the act that suggests that we have "earned" salvation. Baptism does provide, however--unlike the spiritual experience of "being saved" that is so commonly appealed to--the assurance that we have obeyed (as said Ken) a concrete command by which we are assured that we are in the body of Christ.

Of some interest here, are the teachings of the United Pentecost Church International who say that we must be immersed for remission of sins and then be baptized in the Holy Ghost. This is a remarkable departure from the Assemblies of God with the Swaggarts who believe in the "sinner's pray" (rather for baptism for remission of sins) and baptism of the Holy Ghost (Spirit of course). Just imagine these two quickly growing, aggressive and doctrinaire churches, with theologies so alike but are practically at war with one another over the baptism for remission of sins.
What if you are justified by faith in Jesus, and the work He did for you? You then are baptized because you love Him and want to be obedient to Him and then go on to live a life of ever-increasing obedience to Him (out of love for Him) knowing that you can never, ever be yanked (by anyone or anything even yourself) out of His hand. Would that be salvation?
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

November 18th, 2012, 8:10 pm #70

What if a person falsely believes they have received salvation prior to baptism and goes to be baptized thinking they are merely being baptized as a sign of obedience to Christ? Are they truly saved at that point (after their baptism by immersion) or are they still without salvation?
Jesus commanded to make disciples or STUDENTS by baptism and life-long teaching of what HE commanded to be taught and observed."

This is Donnie's point about TENSES of salvation. It is absolutely necessary that a person be initially taught until they can confess that"Jesus is the Christ the Son of God."

This is an act of PURE FAITH. The promise is that those who have FAITH (including obedience or compliance) AND will obey that first step by doing what Jesus did and commanded, that asks or REQUESTS A holy spirit or A good conscience (1 Peter 3:21). That also means a consciousness or a Co-perception of the Word.

This is not something a person of truth would think about debating.

Almost without exception, the clergy thinks about a punched ticket to the joy bus to heave. Proof is they do NOT teach what Jesus commanded to be taught from the prophets and apostles.

God only asks that you believe in Him and agree to become a Disciple which is not a WORSHIPER in the majority view.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Seeking or giving attendance to the public reading of the Word is the ONLY worship concept in the New Testament and in the synagogue under the Monarchy:

1Timothy 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to [public] reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.




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