B
B

October 10th, 2012, 3:19 am #41

Donnie and Ken are right, in my opinion. Baptism is no more a work than Faith and Belief are works. I thought I was going to have to agree with Dr. Crump, a very scary thought, but then I saw that he was wrong on his take on baptism. Salvation does not come after baptism, it comes at the point of baptism. We "arise to walk in newness of life," not arise to find newness of life at some point down the road.
If Tom and B were in the same room and if someone said, "All those who believe Jesus is the Son of God, raise your hands," if Tom raised his hand and then saw B raise his, I do believe Tom would put his hand down, just so he wouldn't agree with B. Or if B raised his hand first, Tom wouldn't raise his hand, just so he wouldn't agree with B. Shame on you, Tom!
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

October 10th, 2012, 9:34 pm #42

It is important to look at the several descriptions of what happens at baptism. It is true that resurrection means to be REvived or REspirited.

In Acts 2:38 one must Repent AND be baptized for the REMISSION of sins and the gift OF A holy spirit which comes only from Jesus Christ Who is now the ONLY Comforter or Mediator. In 1 Peter 3:21 and 2 Corinthians 3 turning (converting, being baptized) gives one A good conscience (consciousness or a co perception) or A holy spirit. After one has been REspirited the Gift of A holy spirit is the power to comprehend and share in the mysteries of the Kingdom.

This saves one from the perverse or CROOKED RACE. These were the VIPER RACE and evidence connected this race to the new wineskinners, getting drunk on wine or the SKOLION (crooked)singing common in the symposia where the elders are not to come NEAR WINE.

AT BAPTISM we are CLOTHED with Christ as the "wedding garment" required to get into the wedding and the "oil" to keep our lamps buring. The Menorah spoke of the seven spirits of God. In Isaiah 11 these are all forms of Divine Knowledge or the ability to grasp the Word.

Salvation by Grace Through faith is not the NEW BIRTH but Safety from the evil people defined in the first part of Ephesians 2.

Maybe it is less important to understand all of these values than to be aware of them. That will guard against the people who spout "faith only" who dont' care enough to understand all of what happens at baptism. John Calvin did a good job describing Adult Baptism and Alexander Campbell said that Calvin on Adult baptism was a Campbellite.

The Crooked, Perverse or Viper race points directly to the religious performers intending to silence truth.

http://www.piney.com/Acts.2.Crooked.html

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October 10th, 2012, 10:13 pm #43

There can be four positions on merit and salvation:

1. We are saved by God's predestination and selection. Faith is prompted by God and Jesus died only for those preselected. Some Calvinists believe this, apparently. (Calvin may not have been a Calvinist.)
2. God does not predetermine that we have faith. But we are saved by our faith apart from our works. Works have nothing to do with salvation, since we are saved by faith. Persons in the church can say that they have broken all the commandments, yet they are saved. Persons who believe this make statements like, "God's love in unconditional." But they will not tell you that they are faith- and grace- aloners. They may also believe in 1 (above).
3. We are saved by faith, but works are an evidence that we have faith. Works assure us that we are saved. Abraham was justified by faith long before this justification was demonstrated in his works. Wesley and his Methodists are similar to this point (3).
4. We are judged by our works. Those without works do not have faith. Life does not have to be perfect, but we can repent of our sins, and they will be remitted, then we will still be saved. Mormons and Catholics may fit into this category. Those in this category are very sincere, and do more good than anyone can believe (usually), but they are not very content with their salvation since they do things they know are sins; but if they can do a quick "repentance" they will feel good for a while.

Churches of Christ are moving from category 4 to 3 to 2. When Churches of Christ get to believing in category 2, they might as well accept universalism, since it is a by-product.

Many Protestants don't like baptism and pretend it is a work, such as Billy Graham. From what I can tell, he does not like those who teach that baptism is in the steps of salvation.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

October 11th, 2012, 12:01 am #44

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]I'll try to respond additionally later on.

I will be initiating another thread that deals with the Christian's present salvation -- hopefully, it will clarify issues concerning faith vs. faith and works.

For the time being, since this thread is about the initial salvation, i.e., CONVERSION, let me state that in the conversion process good works are not necessary. One is saved by grace through faith -- not of works (Eph. 2:8,9).

OK, I'll give away what I would like to discuss regarding the Christian's current salvation -- that the child of God (not at pre-conversion) must have both faith and works.

I'm convinced that when a Bible student becomes knowledgeable of the difference between:

(1) when faith without works is applicable
----------------- and ---------------------
(2) when both faith and works are applicable


... the confusion will be greatly diminished or completely eliminated. There are several passages that support such a distinction. We shall attempt to "rightly divide" the word of truth.[/color]
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Tom Brite
Tom Brite

October 11th, 2012, 12:58 am #45

If Tom and B were in the same room and if someone said, "All those who believe Jesus is the Son of God, raise your hands," if Tom raised his hand and then saw B raise his, I do believe Tom would put his hand down, just so he wouldn't agree with B. Or if B raised his hand first, Tom wouldn't raise his hand, just so he wouldn't agree with B. Shame on you, Tom!
Dr. Crump, It is sad that you have had to think about this so much today that it took you two posts to try to come up with a response to my post. It is not that you are never right about what you believe, it is just that you are wrong about so much that it seems scary to me that we might agree on something. Please stop worrying about it, things will be ok.
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October 11th, 2012, 2:17 am #46

Got ole Tom going...again.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

October 11th, 2012, 2:29 am #47

There can be four positions on merit and salvation:

1. We are saved by God's predestination and selection. Faith is prompted by God and Jesus died only for those preselected. Some Calvinists believe this, apparently. (Calvin may not have been a Calvinist.)
2. God does not predetermine that we have faith. But we are saved by our faith apart from our works. Works have nothing to do with salvation, since we are saved by faith. Persons in the church can say that they have broken all the commandments, yet they are saved. Persons who believe this make statements like, "God's love in unconditional." But they will not tell you that they are faith- and grace- aloners. They may also believe in 1 (above).
3. We are saved by faith, but works are an evidence that we have faith. Works assure us that we are saved. Abraham was justified by faith long before this justification was demonstrated in his works. Wesley and his Methodists are similar to this point (3).
4. We are judged by our works. Those without works do not have faith. Life does not have to be perfect, but we can repent of our sins, and they will be remitted, then we will still be saved. Mormons and Catholics may fit into this category. Those in this category are very sincere, and do more good than anyone can believe (usually), but they are not very content with their salvation since they do things they know are sins; but if they can do a quick "repentance" they will feel good for a while.

Churches of Christ are moving from category 4 to 3 to 2. When Churches of Christ get to believing in category 2, they might as well accept universalism, since it is a by-product.

Many Protestants don't like baptism and pretend it is a work, such as Billy Graham. From what I can tell, he does not like those who teach that baptism is in the steps of salvation.
Category 2 people do not clearly understand that "saved" in Donnie's thread is in several tenses and has parallels. For instance,Paul wrote:

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Paul is speaking of the only thing yuu can OBEY: Baptism. You cannot obey faith but only God Who still has the right to demand obedience.

Those who refuse to obey the direct commandment prove by their teachings that they have no intention to obey or teach the "foundation LAID BY the prophets and Apostles."

If they do not obey then Paul refused to call them righteous.

2Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

You cannot obey the gospel just by believing in the actions of Jesus witout walking in His steps: He left an example for us to follow Just as He obeyed the Prophecy about Baptism.

Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

If they have not obeyed that TYPE of Jesus obedience then they are STILL the servants of sin. They have not obeyed because they SPREAD the dogma that one does not HAVE to obey God. They simply so not comprehend "God."

Romans 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

They teach that you don't HAVE to obey that "pattern intended to be imitated." Therefore, they and their dupes are NOT free from their sins and CANNOT be servants of righteousness.

This is so absolute that no one OF FAITH or OF TRUTH can possibly miss it: in the following study it will become obvious that being a baptized person for 70 years, in the morning "I will be saved (safe) by Grace through faith. That being SAVED form means that I am saved FROM Ephesians 2:2 which they CANNOT read with comprehension:

Ephesians 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this WORLD,
according to the prince of the power of the air,
the SPIRIT that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Jesus said that He would not even PRAY for the World or Kosmos.

Kosmos , ho, natural, II. ornament, decoration, esp. of women; hieros k.metaph., of ornaments of speech, such as epithetsto sing sweet songs of praise,

We know that this was a word associated with the Babylons who taught.

Of the Gnostic (modern)...this sect crowned the image of Jesus along with those of Pythagoras, Plato and Aristotle. Further, there were impostors of all varieties: magicians, soothsayers, jugglers, deceivers and hypocrites, 'who appeared using mighty words with a host of unintelligible formulae and taking up with scandalous ceremonies in order to rob men of their money." (Int. Std. Bible Ency., Gnosticism, p. 1246).

Such a person was then an enthusiast. Music was the most important element used to induce this condition. .. Aristotle explains that among the modes the Phrygian has the same power as the flute among instruments, for both are orgiastic and both heighten consciousness. This peculiar capability, which brought on religious ecstasy.. For that reason everything written in the Phrygian mode was. (Quasten, p 36-37)
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October 11th, 2012, 2:56 am #48

Yes, the obedience from the heart does indeed include baptism.

Baptism is nothing like the works of the (Mosaic) law, in that it does not merit salvation, although is act of our dying to sins and being reborn. God wouldn't "owe" us anything for baptism, since it is the expression of our faith. One could, for example, keep all the feats and all the 10 commandments and have a real good feeling about salvation, almost to the extent of our believing that we have "earned" salvation. Not so with baptism. Even though baptism is the introduction to the body of Christ, there is nothing about the act that suggests that we have "earned" salvation. Baptism does provide, however--unlike the spiritual experience of "being saved" that is so commonly appealed to--the assurance that we have obeyed (as said Ken) a concrete command by which we are assured that we are in the body of Christ.

Of some interest here, are the teachings of the United Pentecost Church International who say that we must be immersed for remission of sins and then be baptized in the Holy Ghost. This is a remarkable departure from the Assemblies of God with the Swaggarts who believe in the "sinner's pray" (rather for baptism for remission of sins) and baptism of the Holy Ghost (Spirit of course). Just imagine these two quickly growing, aggressive and doctrinaire churches, with theologies so alike but are practically at war with one another over the baptism for remission of sins.
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Anonymous
Anonymous

October 12th, 2012, 2:04 pm #49

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]I am troubled by even members of the body (church) of Christ who, along with their "faith only" denominational friends, share and proclaim a common belief in the religious world that good works are not necessary in the "Christian's salvation."

These same members of the Lord's church gladly sing popular Christian rock songs that it's "NOT by human endeavor" because Christ paid for it ALL on the cross. ALL ... implying that present and future SINS are automatically forgiven even without asking for forgiveness and without repenting.

The Scripture tells me differently that Christians -- members of the body of Christ -- are to maintain good works or works of righteousness. There are numerous passages that support this truth. After all, the Holy Scripture is God's truth.

Unless we are able to to distinguish that man goes through 3 stages or periods in his journey to eternity, we will never understand or diminish or eliminate the conflict concerning man's salvation.

The three (3) stages are as follows:

(1) Past Salvation -- the CONVERSION PROCESS
(2) Present Salvation -- the current stage of Christian living
(3) Future Salvation -- the Judgment that it's either heaven or hell.


This current topic is about the CONVERSION PROCESS[/color] -- the first stage. Do you agree that good works are NOT required for one outside of Christ to be CONVERTED? A correct assessment of this premise will prove that FAITH is essential to obtaining redemption in the blood of Christ.

Common passages used are:

(1) Without including the following verse 10 is Ephesians 2:8,9 -- "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast." (NIV)

(2) "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" (KJV)

The Bible tells us: "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." (II Tim. 2:15, KJV)

When we rightly divide the word of truth, there would be no biblical conflict.

Again, this topic is about CONVERSION. Be assured that I am not a "faith only" Christian. But I would like to propose that in conversion, good works are not necessary. But I would also like to propose that doing "good works" has its place in our present salvation.
If Tom and B were in the same room and if someone said, "All those who believe Jesus is the Son of God, raise your hands," if B raised his hand and then saw Tom raise his, I do believe B would put his hand down, just so he wouldn't agree with Tom. Or if Tom raised his hand first, B wouldn't raise his hand, just so he wouldn't agree with Tom.
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October 12th, 2012, 4:50 pm #50

I see that Dave is unable to create an original anecdote of his own: he can only twist around the anecdotes of others.
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