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If Tom and B were in the same room and if someone said, "All those who believe Jesus is the Son of God, raise your hands," if Tom raised his hand and then saw B raise his, I do believe Tom would put his hand down, just so he wouldn't agree with B. Or if B raised his hand first, Tom wouldn't raise his hand, just so he wouldn't agree with B. Shame on you, Tom!Donnie and Ken are right, in my opinion. Baptism is no more a work than Faith and Belief are works. I thought I was going to have to agree with Dr. Crump, a very scary thought, but then I saw that he was wrong on his take on baptism. Salvation does not come after baptism, it comes at the point of baptism. We "arise to walk in newness of life," not arise to find newness of life at some point down the road.
Dr. Crump, It is sad that you have had to think about this so much today that it took you two posts to try to come up with a response to my post. It is not that you are never right about what you believe, it is just that you are wrong about so much that it seems scary to me that we might agree on something. Please stop worrying about it, things will be ok.If Tom and B were in the same room and if someone said, "All those who believe Jesus is the Son of God, raise your hands," if Tom raised his hand and then saw B raise his, I do believe Tom would put his hand down, just so he wouldn't agree with B. Or if B raised his hand first, Tom wouldn't raise his hand, just so he wouldn't agree with B. Shame on you, Tom!
Category 2 people do not clearly understand that "saved" in Donnie's thread is in several tenses and has parallels. For instance,Paul wrote:There can be four positions on merit and salvation:
1. We are saved by God's predestination and selection. Faith is prompted by God and Jesus died only for those preselected. Some Calvinists believe this, apparently. (Calvin may not have been a Calvinist.)
2. God does not predetermine that we have faith. But we are saved by our faith apart from our works. Works have nothing to do with salvation, since we are saved by faith. Persons in the church can say that they have broken all the commandments, yet they are saved. Persons who believe this make statements like, "God's love in unconditional." But they will not tell you that they are faith- and grace- aloners. They may also believe in 1 (above).
3. We are saved by faith, but works are an evidence that we have faith. Works assure us that we are saved. Abraham was justified by faith long before this justification was demonstrated in his works. Wesley and his Methodists are similar to this point (3).
4. We are judged by our works. Those without works do not have faith. Life does not have to be perfect, but we can repent of our sins, and they will be remitted, then we will still be saved. Mormons and Catholics may fit into this category. Those in this category are very sincere, and do more good than anyone can believe (usually), but they are not very content with their salvation since they do things they know are sins; but if they can do a quick "repentance" they will feel good for a while.
Churches of Christ are moving from category 4 to 3 to 2. When Churches of Christ get to believing in category 2, they might as well accept universalism, since it is a by-product.
Many Protestants don't like baptism and pretend it is a work, such as Billy Graham. From what I can tell, he does not like those who teach that baptism is in the steps of salvation.
If Tom and B were in the same room and if someone said, "All those who believe Jesus is the Son of God, raise your hands," if B raised his hand and then saw Tom raise his, I do believe B would put his hand down, just so he wouldn't agree with Tom. Or if Tom raised his hand first, B wouldn't raise his hand, just so he wouldn't agree with Tom.[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]I am troubled by even members of the body (church) of Christ who, along with their "faith only" denominational friends, share and proclaim a common belief in the religious world that good works are not necessary in the "Christian's salvation."
These same members of the Lord's church gladly sing popular Christian rock songs that it's "NOT by human endeavor" because Christ paid for it ALL on the cross. ALL ... implying that present and future SINS are automatically forgiven even without asking for forgiveness and without repenting.
The Scripture tells me differently that Christians -- members of the body of Christ -- are to maintain good works or works of righteousness. There are numerous passages that support this truth. After all, the Holy Scripture is God's truth.
Unless we are able to to distinguish that man goes through 3 stages or periods in his journey to eternity, we will never understand or diminish or eliminate the conflict concerning man's salvation.
The three (3) stages are as follows:
(1) Past Salvation -- the CONVERSION PROCESS
(2) Present Salvation -- the current stage of Christian living
(3) Future Salvation -- the Judgment that it's either heaven or hell.
This current topic is about the CONVERSION PROCESS[/color] -- the first stage. Do you agree that good works are NOT required for one outside of Christ to be CONVERTED? A correct assessment of this premise will prove that FAITH is essential to obtaining redemption in the blood of Christ.
Common passages used are:
(1) Without including the following verse 10 is Ephesians 2:8,9 -- "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast." (NIV)
(2) "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" (KJV)
The Bible tells us: "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." (II Tim. 2:15, KJV)
When we rightly divide the word of truth, there would be no biblical conflict.
Again, this topic is about CONVERSION. Be assured that I am not a "faith only" Christian. But I would like to propose that in conversion, good works are not necessary. But I would also like to propose that doing "good works" has its place in our present salvation.