Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

October 9th, 2012, 3:18 am #31

The sequence of events are clear. Christian Baptism is valid.
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Racnor,

I will have to disagree with your view regarding "Christian Baptism."

There is no controversy at all in the passage you quoted: (Acts 10:34-46). It is parallel to the first segment of Acts 2 (v. 1-36). Remember that thing about "the Jews and the Gentiles"? Romans 9:24 -- "not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles."

What occurred in Acts 2:1-36 pertained to the Jews.

What occurred in Acts 10:34-46 pertained to the Gentiles.

You will find more of the same expression in these references: Acts 14:1 -- "both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed." Acts 19:10 -- "both Jews and Greeks." Acts 19:17 -- "to all the Jews and Greeks also."

Please note that in either case, there was nothing said of the burial in water unto the forgiveness of sins.

Then, Acts 2:37,38 (to the Jews) is a parallel to Acts 10:47,48 (to the Gentiles) -- both are in regard to baptism in water.

"Christian Baptism" is a misinterpretation of the purpose of baptism. It is not the Christian who needs to be baptized. Rather, it the sinner (one outside of Christ) who needs to be baptized in order to become a Christian.[/color]
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

October 9th, 2012, 6:20 am #32

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]I am troubled by even members of the body (church) of Christ who, along with their "faith only" denominational friends, share and proclaim a common belief in the religious world that good works are not necessary in the "Christian's salvation."

These same members of the Lord's church gladly sing popular Christian rock songs that it's "NOT by human endeavor" because Christ paid for it ALL on the cross. ALL ... implying that present and future SINS are automatically forgiven even without asking for forgiveness and without repenting.

The Scripture tells me differently that Christians -- members of the body of Christ -- are to maintain good works or works of righteousness. There are numerous passages that support this truth. After all, the Holy Scripture is God's truth.

Unless we are able to to distinguish that man goes through 3 stages or periods in his journey to eternity, we will never understand or diminish or eliminate the conflict concerning man's salvation.

The three (3) stages are as follows:

(1) Past Salvation -- the CONVERSION PROCESS
(2) Present Salvation -- the current stage of Christian living
(3) Future Salvation -- the Judgment that it's either heaven or hell.


This current topic is about the CONVERSION PROCESS[/color] -- the first stage. Do you agree that good works are NOT required for one outside of Christ to be CONVERTED? A correct assessment of this premise will prove that FAITH is essential to obtaining redemption in the blood of Christ.

Common passages used are:

(1) Without including the following verse 10 is Ephesians 2:8,9 -- "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast." (NIV)

(2) "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" (KJV)

The Bible tells us: "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." (II Tim. 2:15, KJV)

When we rightly divide the word of truth, there would be no biblical conflict.

Again, this topic is about CONVERSION. Be assured that I am not a "faith only" Christian. But I would like to propose that in conversion, good works are not necessary. But I would also like to propose that doing "good works" has its place in our present salvation.
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Many of the "Change Agents" operating in the church of Christ have accepted their newly acquired Baptist doctrine of "Christian Baptism." To them baptism is no longer the ultimate step in the CONVERSION process.

The "Christian Baptism" dogma is simply this: BE SAVED NOW; BE BAPTIZED LATER.

But the Scripture negates the dogma:

[/color]
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]There is NO REDEMPTION prior to baptism. "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ." (I Peter 3:21)

    [/color]</li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]RESURRECTION with Christ does not precede the BURIAL with him in baptism. "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead." (Col. 2:12)

    [/color]</li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Walking in NEWNESS OF LIFE does not precede the burial with Christ in baptism. "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." (Rom. 6:4)

    [/color]</li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]PUTTING ON CHRIST (wearing the name "Christian") does not precede baptism into Christ. "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ." (Gal. 3:26,27)
    [/color]</li>
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Racnor
Racnor

October 9th, 2012, 9:42 pm #33

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Racnor,

I will have to disagree with your view regarding "Christian Baptism."

There is no controversy at all in the passage you quoted: (Acts 10:34-46). It is parallel to the first segment of Acts 2 (v. 1-36). Remember that thing about "the Jews and the Gentiles"? Romans 9:24 -- "not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles."

What occurred in Acts 2:1-36 pertained to the Jews.

What occurred in Acts 10:34-46 pertained to the Gentiles.

You will find more of the same expression in these references: Acts 14:1 -- "both of the Jews and also of the Greeks believed." Acts 19:10 -- "both Jews and Greeks." Acts 19:17 -- "to all the Jews and Greeks also."

Please note that in either case, there was nothing said of the burial in water unto the forgiveness of sins.

Then, Acts 2:37,38 (to the Jews) is a parallel to Acts 10:47,48 (to the Gentiles) -- both are in regard to baptism in water.

"Christian Baptism" is a misinterpretation of the purpose of baptism. It is not the Christian who needs to be baptized. Rather, it the sinner (one outside of Christ) who needs to be baptized in order to become a Christian.[/color]
Perhaps, Donnie, we can agree on the term "believer's baptism"?

Do you believe the Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Ghost prior to water baptism?

Do you believe the Gentiles sins were remitted (forgiven) prior to water baptism?

Do you believe this was a one time event that was never repeated?

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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

October 9th, 2012, 10:50 pm #34

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Many of the "Change Agents" operating in the church of Christ have accepted their newly acquired Baptist doctrine of "Christian Baptism." To them baptism is no longer the ultimate step in the CONVERSION process.

The "Christian Baptism" dogma is simply this: BE SAVED NOW; BE BAPTIZED LATER.

But the Scripture negates the dogma:

[/color]
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]There is NO REDEMPTION prior to baptism. "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ." (I Peter 3:21)

    [/color]</li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]RESURRECTION with Christ does not precede the BURIAL with him in baptism. "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead." (Col. 2:12)

    [/color]</li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Walking in NEWNESS OF LIFE does not precede the burial with Christ in baptism. "Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life." (Rom. 6:4)

    [/color]</li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]PUTTING ON CHRIST (wearing the name "Christian") does not precede baptism into Christ. "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ." (Gal. 3:26,27)
    [/color]</li>
The progressives make an ungodly living off making fun that God has a plan for we humans to follow. After all, humans had their own plan and it didn't work out too well.

We have noted that the Spirit OF Christ defined the future Sacrifice for sins to save us FROM the crooked race.

He defined HOW the vipers would continue to musically mock him up to the cross.

He defined and commanded baptism in great detail in Isaiah 6.

He through Malachi 3 defined the future role of the Forerunner.

Jesus was baptized to FULFILL the law contained in the command to be batized.

He defined baptism as necessary for making disciples.

Mark 1 defines the ARCHE or "most important under girding of the Gospel.

He then defined the Baptism of John and that of Jesus through the hands of his apostles.

In Mark 16 Jesus connected believeth AND baptism and repeated the prophetic type of Isaiah and said that he that believeth not or "does not comply" as proof of people preferring to be damned.

Therefore:

1. The Prophets through the Spirit OF CHRIST made baptism required.
2. Jesus of Nazareth made that prophecy more certain by being baptized
3. ONLY after He came UP OUT OF the Water did God the Father promounce Jesus as the Son of God.
4. The Church of Christ is built upon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles.
5. Christ is the Chief Cornerstone in both.

The Baptism of Spirit and Fire is the sign of WIND to winnow to blow away the chaff. The baptism of FIRE is to burn up the CHAFF which would not come to the baptism of Jesus.

The Spirit OF Christ also defined the WIND and FIRE to judge the RACE OF VIPERS including the Jews who tagged along at the Cornelius event.

Is. 4:3 And it shall come to pass, that he that is left in Zion,
.....and he that remaineth in Jerusalem, shall be called holy,
.....even every one that is written among the living in Jerusalem:
Is. 4:4 When the Lord shall have WASHED AWAY away the filth of the daughters of Zion,
.....and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof
.....by the FIRE of judgment, and by the SPIRIT of burning.

lvo , Gr. lu- in luthron; strengthened in lou, loutron; cf. lowetron; Lat. luo (pol-luo, etc.), diluvium, lutus, to wash, bathe, lave.
II. Trop., to wash away: venias nunc precibus lautum peccatum tuum, Ter. Phorm. 5, 7, 80: dulci Mala vino lavere, Hor. C. 3, 12, 2.Hence, lautus , a, um, P. a.

Loutron , numphika loutra the conveying of water to the bride (cf. loutrophoros), Poll.3.43; in NT, of baptism, Ep.Eph. 5.26; l. paliggenesias Ep.Tit.3.5.


These BRIDES who are not washed to be clothed with the wedding garment will be EXCLUDED.

It may not be the CAUSE of people being lost but the MARK of people who had rather climb up like thieves. And like thieves, they claim that knocking at the DOOR to the sheepfold would be a LEGALISTIC, PATTERNISTIC HERESY. A thief has real trouble accepting the FREE GIFT OF ETERNAL LIFE.

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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

October 9th, 2012, 11:02 pm #35

The promise to the Apostles was a baptism of WIND and FIRE: the SIGNS in the upper room was WIND and FIRE. After that, the Apostles were filled with the Holy Spirit or BREATH: when God breaths on people it is not to SAVE them but to prove that THEIR words are GOD'S Words. The Testament of Levi who prophesied of the JUBILEE HERESY. This teaching of one of the 12 is identical to the Words of Christ:

The Testament of Levi shows what the common Jewish understanding whether right or wrong. Never miss a chance to honor a preposition.

http://www.piney.com/DocTstLevi.html

Then shall the Lord raise up a new priest. And to him
all the words of the Lord shall be revealed; (Isa 1:1f).
and he shall execute a righteous judgment upon the earth for a multitude of days.
And his star shall arise in heaven as of a king. Testament of Levi 5:13-15

And the knowledge of the Lord shall be POURED forth upon the earth,
.....as the water of the seas.
.....The heavens shall be opened, and
.....from the temple of glory shall come upon him sanctification,
.....with the Father's voice as from Abraham to Isaac.
.....And the glory of the Most High shall be uttered over him and
.....the spirit OF understanding and sanctification
.....ahall rest upon him in the water. Testament of Levi 5:19,-22

And he shall open the gates of paradise, and shall remove the threatening sword against Adam,
and he shall give to the saints to eat from the tree of life,and the spirit OF holiness shall be on them.
And Beliar shall be bound by him, and he shall give power
to his children to tread upon the evil spirits. Testament of Levi 5:26-27

This is what the Spirit of Christ said in Isaiah 11 and in Proverbs.

And the spirit (7307) of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord; Isaiah 11:

And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: Isa 11:3

That is what we want when the Candlestick is still in our church. I believe the following is a parallelism

Prov. 1:22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity?
.....and the scorners delight in their scorning,
.....and fools hate knowledge?

Turn you at my reproof: behold,
.....I will pour out my spirit unto you,
.....I will make known my words unto you. Proverbs 1:23
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B
B

October 10th, 2012, 12:32 am #36

Perhaps, Donnie, we can agree on the term "believer's baptism"?

Do you believe the Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Ghost prior to water baptism?

Do you believe the Gentiles sins were remitted (forgiven) prior to water baptism?

Do you believe this was a one time event that was never repeated?
When Jesus said, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved..." (Mark 16:16a), the Baptists think it means, "He that believeth shall be saved, and then he can be baptized whenever it's convenient."

When Peter said, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" (Acts 2:38), the Baptists think it means, "Repent for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost; then every one of you can be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ whenever it's convenient."

When Peter also said, "The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 3:21), the Baptists think it means, "Although baptism doesn't save us, it is the answer of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ; therefore, after we've accepted Jesus into our hearts as our personal Savior and are saved, we can be baptized whenever it's convenient."
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Tom Brite
Tom Brite

October 10th, 2012, 2:09 am #37

The promise to the Apostles was a baptism of WIND and FIRE: the SIGNS in the upper room was WIND and FIRE. After that, the Apostles were filled with the Holy Spirit or BREATH: when God breaths on people it is not to SAVE them but to prove that THEIR words are GOD'S Words. The Testament of Levi who prophesied of the JUBILEE HERESY. This teaching of one of the 12 is identical to the Words of Christ:

The Testament of Levi shows what the common Jewish understanding whether right or wrong. Never miss a chance to honor a preposition.

http://www.piney.com/DocTstLevi.html

Then shall the Lord raise up a new priest. And to him
all the words of the Lord shall be revealed; (Isa 1:1f).
and he shall execute a righteous judgment upon the earth for a multitude of days.
And his star shall arise in heaven as of a king. Testament of Levi 5:13-15

And the knowledge of the Lord shall be POURED forth upon the earth,
.....as the water of the seas.
.....The heavens shall be opened, and
.....from the temple of glory shall come upon him sanctification,
.....with the Father's voice as from Abraham to Isaac.
.....And the glory of the Most High shall be uttered over him and
.....the spirit OF understanding and sanctification
.....ahall rest upon him in the water. Testament of Levi 5:19,-22

And he shall open the gates of paradise, and shall remove the threatening sword against Adam,
and he shall give to the saints to eat from the tree of life,and the spirit OF holiness shall be on them.
And Beliar shall be bound by him, and he shall give power
to his children to tread upon the evil spirits. Testament of Levi 5:26-27

This is what the Spirit of Christ said in Isaiah 11 and in Proverbs.

And the spirit (7307) of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord; Isaiah 11:

And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: Isa 11:3

That is what we want when the Candlestick is still in our church. I believe the following is a parallelism

Prov. 1:22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity?
.....and the scorners delight in their scorning,
.....and fools hate knowledge?

Turn you at my reproof: behold,
.....I will pour out my spirit unto you,
.....I will make known my words unto you. Proverbs 1:23
Donnie and Ken are right, in my opinion. Baptism is no more a work than Faith and Belief are works. I thought I was going to have to agree with Dr. Crump, a very scary thought, but then I saw that he was wrong on his take on baptism. Salvation does not come after baptism, it comes at the point of baptism. We "arise to walk in newness of life," not arise to find newness of life at some point down the road.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

October 10th, 2012, 2:22 am #38

That's true:

Jesus died
He was hidden in a tomb
His spirit revived
And that is why He could get up and walk away.
Only then could he WALK in a new life.

No one works harder than people trying to convince themselves and others that THEY didn't have to obey.

As many groups shed their Calvinism where predestiantion is only validated by being a success in life they tend to hold on to a shattering superstition.

They boast but they THINK that if they even involve themselves in believing or having faith this would be a sign of a LOSS of faith which gives them the assurance.

The Campbells and others show that obedience to a direct command is God's way of sealing them or giving them assurance. A SEAL must be obvious.

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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

October 10th, 2012, 2:31 am #39

Donnie and Ken are right, in my opinion. Baptism is no more a work than Faith and Belief are works. I thought I was going to have to agree with Dr. Crump, a very scary thought, but then I saw that he was wrong on his take on baptism. Salvation does not come after baptism, it comes at the point of baptism. We "arise to walk in newness of life," not arise to find newness of life at some point down the road.
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Yes, baptism is not a work, but it certainly is a requirement -- a command -- without which there is no forgiveness of sins in the blood of the Lamb.

Certainly salvation does not come prior to baptism. But I don't think anyone here has said or believes that the new convert is "to find newness of life at some point down the road."

The burial with Christ in baptism into death, the raising up from the dead must follow. Being risen with Christ from the burial is the assurance that sins have been forgiven in His blood, and the new convert, now a Christian, begins that newness of life. [/color]
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B
B

October 10th, 2012, 2:44 am #40

Donnie and Ken are right, in my opinion. Baptism is no more a work than Faith and Belief are works. I thought I was going to have to agree with Dr. Crump, a very scary thought, but then I saw that he was wrong on his take on baptism. Salvation does not come after baptism, it comes at the point of baptism. We "arise to walk in newness of life," not arise to find newness of life at some point down the road.
I think Tom would say and do anything just so he wouldn't have to agree with B. We are saved when we have fully completed the act of baptism by first being immersed and then rising out of the waters of baptism. Baptism consists of immersion PLUS the follow-through of rising from the waters to newness of life. Thus, salvation immediately FOLLOWS baptism. Tom would have us believe that we must remain immersed the water to remain saved. I think Tom knows better than that.

In Matt. 3:16-17, the Spirit of God appeared as a dove and the voice from heaven announced that Jesus was His beloved Son in Whom He was well pleased right AFTER Jesus rose from the waters of baptism, NOT while Jesus was still submerged. That is, God waited until Jesus had completed the FULL ACT OF BAPTISM before appearing as a dove and making His announcement from heaven. The same parallel exists with salvation: it comes immediately AFTER THE FULL ACT of BAPTISM.
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