Is Doing Good Works a Factor or Necessary in Conversion?

Joined: January 28th, 2012, 10:19 pm

October 8th, 2012, 5:29 pm #21

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Maybe, Dave can explain how the expression "Christian Baptism" originated.

I think I know -- it is labeled as "Christian Baptism" not because one who is baptized becomes a Christian, but because it is the Christian [not the sinner] who is baptized.

The Christian needs to be baptized!!! That's why it's called "Christian baptism."

What a distortion of the truth!!![/color]
This thing is confusion and strife caused by someone who does not read and understand the scriptures but does read and understand the works of other confused and deluded men.

Good works have an element of choice about them - in any new testament church there are a number of good works that can be done and many of us chose to be involved in whatever activity we have the time and talent to do. Doing good works is commanded by God as we all know.

Obedience has an element of specific absolute conformity required. The ark Noah built had to be done by the specifications given by God. The walls of Jericho came down after specific obedience.

In I Sam 15 this confusion and warping of truth is addressed and illustrated by Saul and Samuel and the Amalekites - Saul saying that they disobeyed the specific absolute conformity (complete destroying) for something of their own choice that of a sacrifice or burnt offering. Samuel gave them Gods answer to that line of thinking.- rebellion toward God and is as the sin of witchcraft.

This thinking that baptism is another good work is to me the foundational claim that other churches have Christians in them who are as good as we and that we have no unique claims due to our adherence to BIble obedience. I can hear all the dissension about the good works all these people are doing. But God has spoken - the mind of man cannot invent a good work and make it equal to or replacement of a specific command of God

Remember also the words on obedience found in Matt 7.

Good works are not a substitute for obedience.

Comments Welcome



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Racnor
Racnor

October 8th, 2012, 8:50 pm #22

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Maybe, Dave can explain how the expression "Christian Baptism" originated.

I think I know -- it is labeled as "Christian Baptism" not because one who is baptized becomes a Christian, but because it is the Christian [not the sinner] who is baptized.

The Christian needs to be baptized!!! That's why it's called "Christian baptism."

What a distortion of the truth!!![/color]
34 Then Peter began to speak: I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right. 36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. 37 You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

39 We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a cross, 40 but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41 He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosenby us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

Then Peter said, 47 Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have. 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.


Acts 11:15-18 (More of the same!)

15 As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: John baptized with[a] water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit. 17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in Gods way?

18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

October 8th, 2012, 9:00 pm #23

What happened in the upper room

Acts 2:2 And suddenly
.....there came a sound from heaven
.....as of a rushing mighty WIND,
.....and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Acts 2:3 And there appeared unto them
.....cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

Pneuma is pnoe or BREATH: When God BREATHS on you then you SPEAK--no more, no less: no remission of sins

Psalms 33:6 By the [1] word of the [2] LORD were the heavens made;
and all the host of them by the [3] breath of his mouth.

Last edited by Ken.Sublett on October 8th, 2012, 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Racnor
Racnor

October 8th, 2012, 9:13 pm #24

The sequence of events are clear. Christian Baptism is valid.
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B
B

October 8th, 2012, 9:14 pm #25

34 Then Peter began to speak: I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism 35 but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right. 36 You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all. 37 You know what has happened throughout the province of Judea, beginning in Galilee after the baptism that John preached 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.

39 We are witnesses of everything he did in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They killed him by hanging him on a cross, 40 but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41 He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosenby us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42 He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43 All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

Then Peter said, 47 Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have. 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.


Acts 11:15-18 (More of the same!)

15 As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: John baptized with[a] water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit. 17 So if God gave them the same gift he gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in Gods way?

18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, So then, even to Gentiles God has granted repentance that leads to life.
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" (Mark 16:16 KJV).

"Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" (Acts 2:37-38 KJV).

"The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 3:21 KJV).
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B
B

October 8th, 2012, 11:58 pm #26

Christ says that you must believe AND be baptized to be saved. If you don't believe, you won't be baptized; hence, you'll be damned. Jesus does NOT say, "Believe to be saved and then be baptized."

The sequence is clear: salvation comes AFTER baptism.

Peter says that if you repent and are baptized, your sins will be remitted (forgiven); THEN you will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The sequence is clear: forgiveness, the gift of the Holy Ghost, and salvation come AFTER baptism.

Peter also says that baptism SAVES us, not by washing literal dirt from our physical bodies, but because baptism is the answer of a good conscience toward God.

The sequence is clear: salvation comes AFTER baptism.
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B
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October 9th, 2012, 12:50 am #27

The sequence of events are clear. Christian Baptism is valid.
Actually, the term "Christian baptism" is redundant. It means a person who is already a Christian is then baptized. But as the New Testament stipulates, in order to BECOME a Christian, a person must be baptized, AFTER he has first heard the Gospel, believed the Gospel, repented of his sins, and confessed Jesus as Lord. Following baptism, according to Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, and 1 Peter 3:21, a person's sins are forgiven, they receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, and are then CHRISTIANS. So, does a person who has been properly baptized to BECOME a Christian need to be baptized again to have "Christian baptism"? Hardly so!

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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

October 9th, 2012, 1:09 am #28

Christ says that you must believe AND be baptized to be saved. If you don't believe, you won't be baptized; hence, you'll be damned. Jesus does NOT say, "Believe to be saved and then be baptized."

The sequence is clear: salvation comes AFTER baptism.

Peter says that if you repent and are baptized, your sins will be remitted (forgiven); THEN you will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The sequence is clear: forgiveness, the gift of the Holy Ghost, and salvation come AFTER baptism.

Peter also says that baptism SAVES us, not by washing literal dirt from our physical bodies, but because baptism is the answer of a good conscience toward God.

The sequence is clear: salvation comes AFTER baptism.
It is just too supernatural and hard to have to capitulate and confess it: Jesus came to save LOST SPIRITS. These Spirits are IN the world (kosmos) but not OF the World.

Jesus refused to pray for this Cosmic Order and God HID from the performers who CLAIM that THEY are the Spirit-finders and can lead you into the presence of God. That's the abomination of desolation standing in what they believe is the HOLY PLACE.

Jesus spoke parables to PREVENT them (Scribes, Pharisees mercenary hypocrites) from HEARING or READING the mysteries. Paul in 2 Corinthians 3 said that only those who turned (converted or were baptized) would be enabled to HEAR the Word when it was READ (only) in the synagogues or HEAR it when others speak it. That was prophesied by Moses of "another prophet" Who could not be ignored.

"And" or "kai" us cumulative: Believeth (I will comply) AND is baptized (complied) SHALL BE saved.

The believeth not or Apistos says I WILL NOT COMPLY: I do not trust my soul to your instrumental means. It is to MARK the world who are TRAITORS and are tasked to tell everyone that Christ in the prophets, Jesus in person, the Apostles and most of recorded history were LIARS and only THEY can be trusted to tell the truth.

It may be that they KNOW that no one can mistake the clear statements of Scripture and are just evil. It MAY be that they literally CANNOT grasp the truth in its simple form. They LOOK at the LAMB but they bet their lives that they saw a WOLF. They are spiritually DYSLECTIC.

That's what Scripture says but we just don't want to believe that we are in a spiritual battle with principalities and powers in high places.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

October 9th, 2012, 2:21 am #29

This thing is confusion and strife caused by someone who does not read and understand the scriptures but does read and understand the works of other confused and deluded men.

Good works have an element of choice about them - in any new testament church there are a number of good works that can be done and many of us chose to be involved in whatever activity we have the time and talent to do. Doing good works is commanded by God as we all know.

Obedience has an element of specific absolute conformity required. The ark Noah built had to be done by the specifications given by God. The walls of Jericho came down after specific obedience.

In I Sam 15 this confusion and warping of truth is addressed and illustrated by Saul and Samuel and the Amalekites - Saul saying that they disobeyed the specific absolute conformity (complete destroying) for something of their own choice that of a sacrifice or burnt offering. Samuel gave them Gods answer to that line of thinking.- rebellion toward God and is as the sin of witchcraft.

This thinking that baptism is another good work is to me the foundational claim that other churches have Christians in them who are as good as we and that we have no unique claims due to our adherence to BIble obedience. I can hear all the dissension about the good works all these people are doing. But God has spoken - the mind of man cannot invent a good work and make it equal to or replacement of a specific command of God

Remember also the words on obedience found in Matt 7.

Good works are not a substitute for obedience.

Comments Welcome


[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Great differentiation, John.

(1) The sinner [one outside of Christ] obeys the command to be BURIED with Christ in BAPTISM in order to have sins remitted and RISEN with him to begin newness of life (Romans 6:4; Col. 2:12).

(2) The Christian does GOOD WORKS. For faith without works is DEAD (James 2).
[/color]
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

October 9th, 2012, 2:32 am #30

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]I am troubled by even members of the body (church) of Christ who, along with their "faith only" denominational friends, share and proclaim a common belief in the religious world that good works are not necessary in the "Christian's salvation."

These same members of the Lord's church gladly sing popular Christian rock songs that it's "NOT by human endeavor" because Christ paid for it ALL on the cross. ALL ... implying that present and future SINS are automatically forgiven even without asking for forgiveness and without repenting.

The Scripture tells me differently that Christians -- members of the body of Christ -- are to maintain good works or works of righteousness. There are numerous passages that support this truth. After all, the Holy Scripture is God's truth.

Unless we are able to to distinguish that man goes through 3 stages or periods in his journey to eternity, we will never understand or diminish or eliminate the conflict concerning man's salvation.

The three (3) stages are as follows:

(1) Past Salvation -- the CONVERSION PROCESS
(2) Present Salvation -- the current stage of Christian living
(3) Future Salvation -- the Judgment that it's either heaven or hell.


This current topic is about the CONVERSION PROCESS[/color] -- the first stage. Do you agree that good works are NOT required for one outside of Christ to be CONVERTED? A correct assessment of this premise will prove that FAITH is essential to obtaining redemption in the blood of Christ.

Common passages used are:

(1) Without including the following verse 10 is Ephesians 2:8,9 -- "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast." (NIV)

(2) "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" (KJV)

The Bible tells us: "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." (II Tim. 2:15, KJV)

When we rightly divide the word of truth, there would be no biblical conflict.

Again, this topic is about CONVERSION. Be assured that I am not a "faith only" Christian. But I would like to propose that in conversion, good works are not necessary. But I would also like to propose that doing "good works" has its place in our present salvation.
I have already responded to John Watson Smith's post above concerning obedience versus good works (October 8 2012, 1:29 PM). I would encourage anyone to read that post. Here's my response:

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Great differentiation, John.

(1) The sinner [one outside of Christ] obeys the command to be BURIED with Christ in BAPTISM in order to have sins remitted and RISEN with him to begin newness of life (Romans 6:4; Col. 2:12).

(2) The Christian does GOOD WORKS. For faith without works is DEAD (James 2).
[/color]
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