Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

May 12th, 2010, 2:11 am #31

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Ray,

You're really imaginative: command, authorize, endorse, accept!!! How did you come up with those verbs in reference to God and associating Him with musical objects?

I've searched for "authorize(d)" in the Bible -- did not find it used in any manner.

"Authority" -- it's in the Bible but not in reference to lifeless, inanimate musical objects called instruments. Much less God's authority in regard to musical objects?

"Accept" -- now, that's beyond comprehension to suggest what God did not command or authorize.

"Endorse" -- as in a commercial or a political candidate?

If you look further in II Chron. 29, verse 27 indicates that it was David, king of Israel, the skilled musician, dancer, inventor of IM [Amos 6:5] -- who ORDAINED musical instruments.

How long will it be before you're going to say that God invented musical instruments as David, the inventor of musical instruments, did?

"Woe to them ... that chant to the sound of the viol, and invent to themselves instruments of music, like David." (Amos 6:5)[/color]
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

May 12th, 2010, 2:31 am #32

Jimmy - read what you posted yourself with your own eyes!!

2 Chron 29:25-26

25 The king ordered the Levites to take their places in The Temple of God with their musical instruments cymbals, harps, zithers following the original instructions of David, Gad the king's seer, and Nathan the prophet; this was God's command conveyed by his prophets. 26 The Levites formed the orchestra of David, while the priests took up the trumpets.
(from THE MESSAGE: The Bible in Contemporary Language © 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson. All rights reserved.)


Your own quote from scripture says it exactly: THIS WAS GOD'S COMMAND !!! God's command was conveyed by HIS prophets !!!

I don't believe anyone can rightfully say that God did not command this! One has to either totally ignore God's inspired words, or blatantly dismiss God's inspired words with uninspired human arguments - uninspired human arguments that are not even logical!

How long will you continue to follow Ken instead of following God's inspired words?
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Ray,

You missed Jimmy's very significant point completely. It contrasts your notion that whatever David ordered or commanded God also ordered or commanded.

You're essentially saying that "the orchestra of David" is "the orchestra of God." God's orchestra!!! Wow!!!

I think you should look at other translations for "the command of God" and commentaries that distinguish "the command of God" from "the command" of any man.

In another post, Jimmy quoted from I Chron. 15:

"16 David also commanded the chiefs of the Levites to appoint their brothers as the singers who should play loudly on musical instruments, on harps and lyres and cymbals, to raise sounds of joy. 17 So the Levites appointed.... (ESV)

Only the finite mind would further translate the passage above into something like: "God commanded ... the singers who should play loudly on musical instruments." Would you come to that conclusion, Ray?[/color]
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

May 12th, 2010, 2:34 am #33

Jimmy - read what you posted yourself with your own eyes!!

2 Chron 29:25-26

25 The king ordered the Levites to take their places in The Temple of God with their musical instruments cymbals, harps, zithers following the original instructions of David, Gad the king's seer, and Nathan the prophet; this was God's command conveyed by his prophets. 26 The Levites formed the orchestra of David, while the priests took up the trumpets.
(from THE MESSAGE: The Bible in Contemporary Language © 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson. All rights reserved.)


Your own quote from scripture says it exactly: THIS WAS GOD'S COMMAND !!! God's command was conveyed by HIS prophets !!!

I don't believe anyone can rightfully say that God did not command this! One has to either totally ignore God's inspired words, or blatantly dismiss God's inspired words with uninspired human arguments - uninspired human arguments that are not even logical!

How long will you continue to follow Ken instead of following God's inspired words?
Continue with 2 Chron. 29:27-28: "And Hezekiah commanded to offer the burnt offering upon the altar. And when the burnt offering began, the song of the LORD began [also] with the trumpets, and with the instruments [ordained] by David king of Israel. And all the congregation worshipped, and the singers sang, and the trumpeters sounded: [and] all [this continued] until the burnt offering was finished." (KJV).

The instruments were used to accompany the burnt offerings and sacrifices. So why do Christians today still use musical instruments that were originally designed to accompany sacrificial offerings, yet they don't offer burnt sacrifices that God had also commanded? Oh, they explain that the burnt sacrifices are no longer necessary, because of Christ's sacrifice on the cross. So if Christ's death was the ultimate sacrifice, why continue with mechanical musical instruments that were originally associated with burnt offerings? Since we know that Christ abolished any further need for burnt offerings when He died on the cross (Col. 2:14), is there any Scripture anywhere in the Bible that says the IM is to be carried over into the New Covenant of Christianity? Or perhaps that is an assumption on the part of man to carry IM into Christianity. Any way you look at it, there is NO Scripture anywhere in the Bible that gives permission to carry over into Christianity the IM that was associated with the rituals of the Law of Moses. The music that is to be used to worship God today is to come from singing and making melody in our hearts, not with musical instruments (Eph. 5:19; Col. 3:16).
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Geadneym
Geadneym

May 12th, 2010, 10:51 am #34

EPHESIANS 5:19

Speak to one another with PSALMS, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord

PSALM 150

1Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.

2Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness.

3Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.

4Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.

5Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.

6Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD.
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Ray
Ray

May 12th, 2010, 11:57 am #35

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Ray,

You missed Jimmy's very significant point completely. It contrasts your notion that whatever David ordered or commanded God also ordered or commanded.

You're essentially saying that "the orchestra of David" is "the orchestra of God." God's orchestra!!! Wow!!!

I think you should look at other translations for "the command of God" and commentaries that distinguish "the command of God" from "the command" of any man.

In another post, Jimmy quoted from I Chron. 15:

"16 David also commanded the chiefs of the Levites to appoint their brothers as the singers who should play loudly on musical instruments, on harps and lyres and cymbals, to raise sounds of joy. 17 So the Levites appointed.... (ESV)

Only the finite mind would further translate the passage above into something like: "God commanded ... the singers who should play loudly on musical instruments." Would you come to that conclusion, Ray?[/color]
You are missing the Biblical point, Donnie in pursuit of your false teaching and your support for your mentors. Just believe what the scriptures say and quit trying to explain away what the scriptures plainly teach: In the Old Testament God commanded instrumental music. God was pleased with instrumental music. God's glory filled the temple when instrumental music was present. God inspired instrumental music. God inspired the Old Testemant writers to endorse praise to God with instrumental music.

You might decide to be blind to the inspired Words of God. The rest of choose to see what God is plainly teaching. We will not be led from the paths of the truth of God's word by blind guides or mythology.
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Ray
Ray

May 12th, 2010, 12:17 pm #36

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Ray,

You're really imaginative: command, authorize, endorse, accept!!! How did you come up with those verbs in reference to God and associating Him with musical objects?

I've searched for "authorize(d)" in the Bible -- did not find it used in any manner.

"Authority" -- it's in the Bible but not in reference to lifeless, inanimate musical objects called instruments. Much less God's authority in regard to musical objects?

"Accept" -- now, that's beyond comprehension to suggest what God did not command or authorize.

"Endorse" -- as in a commercial or a political candidate?

If you look further in II Chron. 29, verse 27 indicates that it was David, king of Israel, the skilled musician, dancer, inventor of IM [Amos 6:5] -- who ORDAINED musical instruments.

How long will it be before you're going to say that God invented musical instruments as David, the inventor of musical instruments, did?

"Woe to them ... that chant to the sound of the viol, and invent to themselves instruments of music, like David." (Amos 6:5)[/color]
I was just waiting for someone to abuse God's Word spoken to Amos. Donnie did not let me down.

LOOK with your blind eyes at the context of Amos. Is it instruments God is condeming or something else (it would seem awkward for God to endorse instrumental music throughout the entire Old testament, then condemn those who followed His inspration).

Amos doesn't state that it is sinful to play instruments, even in a non-worship setting which is the context of Amos 6. If your blind eyes really think that is what Amos was saying, then you are also saying it is sinful to eat veal, lamb, and lay down on a couch! You abuse the word of God for your own sinful false teachings!

No, it's not instrumental music (or eating veal or lamb, or laying down on a couch) that Amos is condemning, but the indulgence: "Woe to you who are complacent...your feasting and lounging will end". In the prior oracle in chapter 5, Amos condemns the hypocrisy of a people who come to God to worship, yet their hearts are evil (sort of like those who claim to be Christians, yet rely on mythology to condemn other Christians): "You who turn justice into bitterness and cast righteousness to the ground...You trample on the poor...You oppress the righteous...let justice roll on like a river, righteousness like a never-failing stream."

Donnie, you are proving that you know neither inspired words of God nor the message that God communicates to us. Abandon the mythology of Ken, and follow and believe only what God says.
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

May 12th, 2010, 2:28 pm #37

EPHESIANS 5:19

Speak to one another with PSALMS, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord

PSALM 150

1Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.

2Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness.

3Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.

4Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.

5Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.

6Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD.
As I asked before, where is the specific Scripture that gives permission to carry IM from the Old Covenant into Christian worship in the New Covenant? We don't observe the burnt offerings and the many other religious rituals from the Old Testament, so why should we be selective and observe ONLY the IM from the Old Testament?
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Philip
Philip

May 12th, 2010, 2:58 pm #38

EPHESIANS 5:19

Speak to one another with PSALMS, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord

PSALM 150

1Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.

2Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness.

3Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.

4Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.

5Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.

6Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD.
I guess Ken and Donnie would be quick to condemn all who continue to keep any of the old law, since it is no longer in effect. Sure would be news to Paul, and the early Jewish Christians. The thing Paul condemned was the enforcement of it on those who never were part of the Old covenant. Those who wished to continue with for instance keeping the passover or other feasts or the rite of circumcision were free to do so. God didnt ask David to build the temple, but God's presence still filled it. I try to listen to the inspired writers and God's word and wish Ken, Donnie and others would too. peace
philip
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

May 12th, 2010, 4:03 pm #39

Paul said that those who were justified by the Old Law were debtors to keep ALL of the Old Law, and he used mandatory circumcision as one example (Gal. 5:1-6). If someone was not a Jew and was not under the Old Law, then there was no need for him to observe any of the Jewish rituals, such as the Passover. The same applies to IM, which was used in Old Testament Jewish religious rituals, such as burning sacrifices in the Temple. Since Christians are not under the Law of Moses, then nothing connected with those rituals, such as IM, applies to Christians today. Once again, and in light of Gal. 5:1-6, where is the Scripture that explicitly gives Christians permission to select whatever ritual or item from the Old Law that pleases them (IM, for instance) and carry it into Christian worship, then discard everything else related to the Old Law? Where is that Scripture?
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

May 12th, 2010, 4:29 pm #40

I guess Ken and Donnie would be quick to condemn all who continue to keep any of the old law, since it is no longer in effect. Sure would be news to Paul, and the early Jewish Christians. The thing Paul condemned was the enforcement of it on those who never were part of the Old covenant. Those who wished to continue with for instance keeping the passover or other feasts or the rite of circumcision were free to do so. God didnt ask David to build the temple, but God's presence still filled it. I try to listen to the inspired writers and God's word and wish Ken, Donnie and others would too. peace
philip
I guess Ken and Donnie would be quick to condemn all who continue to keep any of the old law, since it is no longer in effect. Sure would be news to Paul, and the early Jewish Christians. The thing Paul condemned was the enforcement of it on those who never were part of the Old covenant. Those who wished to continue with for instance keeping the passover or other feasts or the rite of circumcision were free to do so. God didnt ask David to build the temple, but God's presence still filled it. I try to listen to the inspired writers and God's word and wish Ken, Donnie and others would too. peace
philip


Rather than kill David God gave him a place for a TENT but Solomon went up on Moriah to build God a HOUSE: but, god does not live in houser or is he worshipped in houses. This was an affront to God Who through Abraham had ALREADY PROVIDED His only sacrifice.

There was no "singing with instrumental accompaniment": the SINGERS made ONE SOUND which is:

6963. qowl, kole; kole; from an unused root meaning to call aloud; a voice or sound, aloud, bleating, crackling, cry (+ out), fame, lightness, lowing, noise, + hold peace, (pro-) claim, proclamation, + sing, sound, + spark, thunder(-ing), voice, + yell

When the Levites "prophesied" they are called SOOTHSAYERS.

6049. anan, aw-nan´; a primitive root; to cover; used only as a denominative from 6051, to cloud over; figuratively, to act covertly, i.e. practise magic: bring, enchanter, Meonemin, observe(-r of) times, soothsayer, sorcerer.

God's DISABLING HEAVINESS FILLED the house: h6051


Ezek. 30:18 At Tehaphnehes also the day shall be darkened, when I shall break there the yokes of Egypt: and the pomp of her strength shall cease in her: as for her, a cloud shall cover her, and her daughters shall go into captivity.
Ezek. 30:19 Thus will I execute judgments in Egypt: and they shall know that I am the LORD.

The Ark as the symbol of God's presence was open for all to see in David's tent. However, the MUSIC was a signal for God to CUT OFF access to His presence, His grace and His Word. A singer or musician who thereafter went into a COVERED space such as the Holy Place (type of church) was to be executed.

The Veil (Vail) which cut off access to God, His mercy and His Word is the Hebrew:

6531. perek, peh´-rek; from an unused root meaning to break apart; fracture, i.e. severity: cruelty, rigour.
6532. poreketh, po-reh´-keth; feminine active participle of the same as 6531; a separatrix, i.e. (the sacred) screen:--vail.

We know that the Levites, the names of their instruments, the style of their performance and dress was the EFFEMINATE dress of Dionysus where males could be the "musical worship team" but they had to be effeminate as Paul hoped that the concision would let the knift slip and castrate themselves. This was the MARK of God CUTTING OFF ACCESS to His presence: the Priests COULD NOT SERVE when this HEAVINESS occupied the building.

I would guess that the church is filled with SMOKE which speaks of the NEW WINESKINS diviners or sorcerers.

Rev. 15:8 And the temple was filled with
smoke from the glory of God [heaviness], and from his power;
and no man was able to enter into the temple,
till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

2586. kapnos, kap-nos´; of uncertain affinity; smoke: -- smoke.
Kapn-eios (sc. ampelos), hê, vine. A. with smokecoloured grapes.

To Corrupt the Word selling stuff:

2585. kapeleuo, kap-ale-yoo´-o; from kapelos (a huckster); to retail, i.e. (by implication) to adulterate (figuratively): corrupt.

kapno-mantis , eôs, ho, smoke-diviner,

Mantis [mainomai] The MAD women of Corinth.

I. one who divines, a seer, prophet, Hom., etc.:--as fem. a prophetess, Trag., Thuc.
2. metaph. a diviner, foreboder, Soph.
II. a kind of grasshopper, [locusts]

No, in the words of the NACC and their dupes, this was not God virtually having an orgasm of delight which is the stated Purpose Driving the musical worship teams ABLE to lead you into the presence of God.

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