Dave
Dave

May 11th, 2010, 6:10 am #21

As you say, Donnie, OOPS!
You want authorization for instrumental music in the Word of God, but OOPS you can't show authorization for a PA system either. Sorry William Crump....even though you said not to bring it to the table.....I did!
Hope you understand William that trying to tell a Christian to stop speaking the Truth is simply not going to happen.
It's called a double standard. You need authorization for instrumental music, but not a PA system. your fallacy that you can't play a PA system like you can an instrument. Nobody is saying that you c
Yes Donnie, please do explain to us your fallacy that you can't play a PA system like you can an instrument. (Donnie, please refer to your own apples and oranges difference theory when you can't backup what you believe with the Word of God) Nobody is saying that you can play a PA system. Why aren't we debating this? Why is this a false premise? Because it DOES NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO with the subject at hand. Whether you can play a PA system or not.....GOD does NOT authorize a PA system any more than he does a piano.
Now draw up your bogus chart showing where your PA system is listed under AIDS, while the piano is listed under ADDITIONS. We still all know that a PA system could still go under additions, and the piano could go under AIDS. So the person who conjures up this chart is showing nothing more than his personal bias.
The biggie here gents is this......our examples are of singing, in the New Testament. If we play an instrument while we sing, are we prohibiting the singing? No! Can the music compliment the voice if it is not overpowering? Yes!
You say that we are adding something when we play music?
You don't whine about adding something when we use a car, or the internet, or other media outlets, or a train, or plane to GO, and teach the lost. The only examples of how they WENT in the first century is by boat and foot. When we use anything else other than the examples of a boat and by foot, then by your theory, we are adding to the Word of God. You take it upon yourself to say that instrumental music is an addition where using a car or the internet to reach the lost is not. How convenient for your tradition......it just doesn't nor will ever work that way.
I still love showing how immature you men are when it comes to your reasoning about God being against instrumental music. As long as our man Donnie ALLOWS it, you will always be shown that you are wrong.
Donnie, you know how to put a stop to this once and for all. Just not allow me to post. That would solve everything.
You have the POWER to ban me! You can QUELL the Truth........or can you?

Simple truth is that MAN makes instrumental music sinful......not God!
Simple truth is that MAN can't rewrite the Word of God and is NOT allowed to make instrumental music a sin.
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Ray
Ray

May 11th, 2010, 11:39 am #22

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Ray,

Show me just one verse in the Bible (Old or New Testament) stating that God ever authorized instrumental music as you claim. And who are/were these "accredited" biblical scholars who have "concluded based on evidence in God's word" [wonder where that might be in the Old Testament].[/color]
Donnie - I already have quoted God where He has already given you not just one but over 30 scriptures from His Holy Word where He commanded or inspired the psalmists to endorse instrumentsd to praise Him:

"Hezekiah then stationed the Levites in the house of the LORD with cymbals, with harps and with lyres, according to the command of David and of Gad the king's seer, and of Nathan the prophet; for the command was from the LORD through His prophets." (2 Chronicles 29:25)

Thirty-one Psalms either endorse the use of instruments in their inspired title (titles which are included in the ancient Hebrew manuscripts) or endorse the use of instruments within their inspired texts.

Many, such as Dr. Crump, may think that God's Old Testament comamnd and endorsement of instrumental music does not apply to the New Testament Church today. But God DID command and endorse their use in the Old Testament, and to deny this is to deny the very words and inspiration of God, and to embrace the mnythological teachings of Ken.
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

May 11th, 2010, 2:17 pm #23

As you say, Donnie, OOPS!
You want authorization for instrumental music in the Word of God, but OOPS you can't show authorization for a PA system either. Sorry William Crump....even though you said not to bring it to the table.....I did!
Hope you understand William that trying to tell a Christian to stop speaking the Truth is simply not going to happen.
It's called a double standard. You need authorization for instrumental music, but not a PA system. your fallacy that you can't play a PA system like you can an instrument. Nobody is saying that you c
Yes Donnie, please do explain to us your fallacy that you can't play a PA system like you can an instrument. (Donnie, please refer to your own apples and oranges difference theory when you can't backup what you believe with the Word of God) Nobody is saying that you can play a PA system. Why aren't we debating this? Why is this a false premise? Because it DOES NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO with the subject at hand. Whether you can play a PA system or not.....GOD does NOT authorize a PA system any more than he does a piano.
Now draw up your bogus chart showing where your PA system is listed under AIDS, while the piano is listed under ADDITIONS. We still all know that a PA system could still go under additions, and the piano could go under AIDS. So the person who conjures up this chart is showing nothing more than his personal bias.
The biggie here gents is this......our examples are of singing, in the New Testament. If we play an instrument while we sing, are we prohibiting the singing? No! Can the music compliment the voice if it is not overpowering? Yes!
You say that we are adding something when we play music?
You don't whine about adding something when we use a car, or the internet, or other media outlets, or a train, or plane to GO, and teach the lost. The only examples of how they WENT in the first century is by boat and foot. When we use anything else other than the examples of a boat and by foot, then by your theory, we are adding to the Word of God. You take it upon yourself to say that instrumental music is an addition where using a car or the internet to reach the lost is not. How convenient for your tradition......it just doesn't nor will ever work that way.
I still love showing how immature you men are when it comes to your reasoning about God being against instrumental music. As long as our man Donnie ALLOWS it, you will always be shown that you are wrong.
Donnie, you know how to put a stop to this once and for all. Just not allow me to post. That would solve everything.
You have the POWER to ban me! You can QUELL the Truth........or can you?

Simple truth is that MAN makes instrumental music sinful......not God!
Simple truth is that MAN can't rewrite the Word of God and is NOT allowed to make instrumental music a sin.
Is it possible to be a Christian without knowing the difference between a disciple and a ceremonial legalist stroking your own pleasure centers? Don't think so.

Is it possible to be a disciple without knowing the difference between an ekklesia--synagogue in a sanitary safe place, and the Agora or marketplace where all of the hypocrites (Jesus named speakers, singers, instrument players) sell their merchandise and the parasite-instrumentalists play--meaning musically and sexually? Don't think so.

Could a literate person have sex with HIS wife in HIS bed and NOT be a hypocrite if he refused to have the VIRTUAL sexuality marked by singing, clapping, moving in symphony with the leader, with or without instruments? Probably not for those who know what is a church, Christian and worship which is defined UNIQUELY as "giving heed to the Words of Christ" (meaning Spirit, that which is written including Psalms (only 50 of those and not with instruments, Hymns (inspired prayers) and Spiritual songs meaning inspired by Christ the ONLY Spirit.

So, the comparisons even the PhDuhs use PROVES that they do not understand that Christianity is "a school of the Words of God (only) and are still arcahic-primitives grunting around the tribal prophesier ALWAYS marked as emotinally and sexually deviant.

In later times, Celtic bardes (poets) were particularly renowned for their powers. They appeared as the young gay men who gathered round and who were successors to the high-ranking pagan priests. And these gay priests, with their magical operations, were themselves often inseparable from the gender-benders who came before, the medicine-men and horned shamans, freely mixing sexuality with the supernatural in their rites. In Ireland, continuing down to the 17th century, it was common for the king or chieftain to turn to the bardes, whose duty it was, just like the Horned Gods or his Two-Spirit native brothers, to mediate the mysterious powers of life.

The Great Mother in Revelation 17 uses the lusted after FRUITS as erotic preachers (the high priced ones--never walk the streets or work), singers and instrument player John called SORCERERS.

Put simply, Gaia is the root from which we derive the word gay. And like the FAIRIES, the Great Mother Gaia's children possessed the remembrance of the paradisiacal higher state.

Our present day moniker of "gay" is in this way traced far back into the fog, and it is a distinct name well chosen for a unique branch of humankind.

The human beings who were the Children of Gaiety were very much transformed over time, into, for example, the one-eyed Cyclops or the enormous half-man, half-snake Typhon. Yet they are quite traceable, and they are very much a human lot.


Joseph Campbell notes that when the preachers lose their faith they "crack away to the archaic" such as the Peyote Cult of the American Indians. Therefore, when they boast about "a new style of music or drama" they are confessing to be the BEAST PEOPLE (Zoe). When a group cracks away from SPEAK or SAY to RETHORIC OR SINGY-SPEAKING and music, they are a product of the Old or "serpent brain" and therefore it is IMPOSSIBLE for words to rise any higher in the brain and the can't tell the difference between SEX IN BED and SEX claiming to force the "spirits to come." It's sad: but you remember that the Book of Enoch and all ancient thought proves that when you reach that climax level of musical arrousal, you have fallen and can never get up. THAT'S why Christ left us an example (written) so that we can rest our faith on His Words and not on our "imagination which is evil continually." That is what Paul outlawed in Romans 14.
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Dave
Dave

May 11th, 2010, 4:11 pm #24

Is it possible to be any sicker in the head than you are, Ken Sublett?
I don't think so.
Your mind is so perverted towards sex, you can't think of anything else.
Seek help!
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

May 11th, 2010, 6:00 pm #25

Psalm 98

1 Sing to the LORD a new song,
for he has done marvelous things;
his right hand and his holy arm
have worked salvation for him.
2 The LORD has made his salvation known
and revealed his righteousness to the nations.

3 He has remembered his love
and his faithfulness to the house of Israel;
all the ends of the earth have seen
the salvation of our God.

4 Shout for joy to the LORD, all the earth,
burst into jubilant song with music;

5 make music to the LORD with the harp,
with the harp and the sound of singing,

6 with trumpets and the blast of the ram's horn
shout for joy before the LORD, the King.

7 Let the sea resound, and everything in it,
the world, and all who live in it.

8 Let the rivers clap their hands,
Let the mountains sing together for joy; 9 let them sing before the LORD,
for he comes to judge the earth.
He will judge the world in righteousness
and the peoples with equity.

Psalm 33:1-3

1 Sing joyfully to the LORD, you righteous;
it is fitting for the upright to praise him.

2 Praise the LORD with the harp;
make music to him on the ten-stringed lyre.

3 Sing to him a new song;
play skillfully, and shout for joy.

Psalm 149

1 Praise the LORD.
Sing to the LORD a new song,
his praise in the assembly of the saints.

2 Let Israel rejoice in their Maker;
let the people of Zion be glad in their King.

3 Let them praise his name with dancing
and make music to him with tambourine and harp.
Since many Christians fixate on the Old Testament (for example, David, Second Chronicles, and the Psalms) to justify using instrumental music in Christian worship, then we must conclude that they believe Christians can follow two Covenants--the Law of Moses AND the Law of Christ. It amounts to picking what they desire from each Covenant, discarding what is inconvenient or what they dislike from each Covenant, and calling that "Christianity." Such people will proclaim that they are absolutely "Christians" through and through and will vehemently deny that they follow the Law of Moses--just pits and pieces of it that satisfy what they want (like instruments) but what the New Testament doesn't teach.

Now if Christians can follow two Covenants, then they can follow God AND mammon, because the principle is the same--following two opposite or conflicting concepts. For example, the Law of Moses said to love your neighbor and hate your enemies; the Law of Christ said to love your neighbor AND your enemies. Those are conflicting concepts: the one says to love some and hate others; the other says to love everyone.

As it turns out, Jesus said, "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon" (Matt. 6:24 KJV). The same principle applies to Covenants. You cannot serve two Covenants, just like you cannot serve God and mammon.

But people will do as they please.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

May 11th, 2010, 8:29 pm #26

Is it possible to be any sicker in the head than you are, Ken Sublett?
I don't think so.
Your mind is so perverted towards sex, you can't think of anything else.
Seek help!
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave,

Question your own mind or that question should be redirected to you. Ken has done research on musical idolatry exhaustively; you haven't. There's a colossal difference there between:

(a) Someone telling facts about the music industry from ages past and in our culture and all the activities associated with it--idolatry and other perversions...

------------- and -------------

(b) Someone accusing another of being perverted for explaining the truth about music-related perversions.

Besides, what are you going to do now with the various authors of books in the Bible where numerous instances of idolatry, adultery, murder, theft and any other perversion have been recorded?[/color]
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Jimmy Wren
Jimmy Wren

May 11th, 2010, 10:42 pm #27

Since many Christians fixate on the Old Testament (for example, David, Second Chronicles, and the Psalms) to justify using instrumental music in Christian worship, then we must conclude that they believe Christians can follow two Covenants--the Law of Moses AND the Law of Christ. It amounts to picking what they desire from each Covenant, discarding what is inconvenient or what they dislike from each Covenant, and calling that "Christianity." Such people will proclaim that they are absolutely "Christians" through and through and will vehemently deny that they follow the Law of Moses--just pits and pieces of it that satisfy what they want (like instruments) but what the New Testament doesn't teach.

Now if Christians can follow two Covenants, then they can follow God AND mammon, because the principle is the same--following two opposite or conflicting concepts. For example, the Law of Moses said to love your neighbor and hate your enemies; the Law of Christ said to love your neighbor AND your enemies. Those are conflicting concepts: the one says to love some and hate others; the other says to love everyone.

As it turns out, Jesus said, "No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon" (Matt. 6:24 KJV). The same principle applies to Covenants. You cannot serve two Covenants, just like you cannot serve God and mammon.

But people will do as they please.
2 Chron 29:25-26

25 The king ordered the Levites to take their places in The Temple of God with their musical instruments cymbals, harps, zithers following the original instructions of David, Gad the king's seer, and Nathan the prophet; this was God's command conveyed by his prophets. 26 The Levites formed the orchestra of David, while the priests took up the trumpets.
(from THE MESSAGE: The Bible in Contemporary Language © 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson. All rights reserved.)

I don't believe anyone can rightfully say that God commanded an orchestra of David be used in a worship service even back then!






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Jimmy Wren
Jimmy Wren

May 11th, 2010, 11:51 pm #28

One can read 1 Chron. 5:16 to find where David gave such a command as recorded in 2 Chron 29:25.

1 Chron 15:16-17

16 David also commanded the chiefs of the Levites to appoint their brothers as the singers who should play loudly on musical instruments, on harps and lyres and cymbals, to raise sounds of joy. 17 So the Levites appointed...(ESV)

I don't understand the IM to be God's command at all!
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Ray
Ray

May 12th, 2010, 12:51 am #29

2 Chron 29:25-26

25 The king ordered the Levites to take their places in The Temple of God with their musical instruments cymbals, harps, zithers following the original instructions of David, Gad the king's seer, and Nathan the prophet; this was God's command conveyed by his prophets. 26 The Levites formed the orchestra of David, while the priests took up the trumpets.
(from THE MESSAGE: The Bible in Contemporary Language © 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson. All rights reserved.)

I don't believe anyone can rightfully say that God commanded an orchestra of David be used in a worship service even back then!





Jimmy - read what you posted yourself with your own eyes!!

2 Chron 29:25-26

25 The king ordered the Levites to take their places in The Temple of God with their musical instruments cymbals, harps, zithers following the original instructions of David, Gad the king's seer, and Nathan the prophet; this was God's command conveyed by his prophets. 26 The Levites formed the orchestra of David, while the priests took up the trumpets.
(from THE MESSAGE: The Bible in Contemporary Language © 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson. All rights reserved.)


Your own quote from scripture says it exactly: THIS WAS GOD'S COMMAND !!! God's command was conveyed by HIS prophets !!!

I don't believe anyone can rightfully say that God did not command this! One has to either totally ignore God's inspired words, or blatantly dismiss God's inspired words with uninspired human arguments - uninspired human arguments that are not even logical!

How long will you continue to follow Ken instead of following God's inspired words?
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Ray
Ray

May 12th, 2010, 12:58 am #30

One can read 1 Chron. 5:16 to find where David gave such a command as recorded in 2 Chron 29:25.

1 Chron 15:16-17

16 David also commanded the chiefs of the Levites to appoint their brothers as the singers who should play loudly on musical instruments, on harps and lyres and cymbals, to raise sounds of joy. 17 So the Levites appointed...(ESV)

I don't understand the IM to be God's command at all!
Even Donnie's other hero, John Waddey, disagrees with Donnie's and Ken's false teachings

"Objection: Instrumental music was authorized under the Old Testament, why not now? We agree that it was acceptable then, but remind you that we are not under the Old Covenant. "

God authorized instrumental music. God found instrumental music acceptable. God inspired Bible writers to endorse praises to God with instrumental music. God filled HIs temple with His glory while instrumental music was being played.

Ou may disagree on whether we can use instrumental music in Christian worship, but to teach that God did not authorize, accept, endorse, and fill a building filled with instrumental music with His glory is to deny God's word.

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