Instrumental Music

Instrumental Music

Joined: February 16th, 2006, 7:18 am

February 16th, 2006, 7:47 am #1

Growing up in the church of Christ, I never really questioned anything. But as an adult, I found that I have a mind to think and can voice my opinion.

It seems to me that the argument against instrumental music mainly comes from the doctrine referred as "the Law of Silence" Where the bible is silent, we also should be silent. However, what I have seen is that people of this belief regarding instrumental music are far but silent on the subject.

Please use the law of silence to tell me what is wrong with this conclusion:


First off, I am sure no one on this board will dispute that instruments were use in the Old Testament. The Psalms are full of accounts where David (God's favorite) talks of the use of instruments.

In Revelations, there are accounts from John of instruments in Heaven..

Revelations 5:8 the 24 elders had harps

Revelations 14:2 The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps

Revelations 15 2-3 They held harps given them by God and sang the song of Moses the servant of God and the song of the Lamb.

Now lets go to

Malachi 3:6 "I the LORD do not change.

James 1:17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows

and finally the Lord's prayer:

Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come,
Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven

If instruments were used in the Old Testament and in Heaven, and God does not change. And Jesus said, thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. If the angels had harps, given to them by God, wouldn't this be his will?


Then what is the Big Argument all about????



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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

February 17th, 2006, 10:09 am #2

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>Instrumental music is not supposed to be an issue at the Madison congregation.

The MUSICAL “Worship Leader” of Madison is “the founder and chairman of Acappella Ministries and producer of the singing group ACAPPELLA.” [http://www.madisoncofc.org/Ministry%20T ... nister.htm] As you can tell, this gifted musician is really in BIG BU$INE$$—just to remind you here and now that musical talent is NOT a “spiritual gift OK? He insists that he is strongly opposed to the use of musical instruments, and the current leadership has assured the congregation that it is NOT going there.

Now this makes me wonder if rhythmic clapping makes singing not a cappella—doesn’t it? As well as those thingies (vibrations, etc.) that the concert director’s “Praise Team” members’ vocal folds produce—the unintelligible sounds that simulate and are a substitute for the “forbidden” musical instruments….

There are threads on this forum dealing with music and musical instruments in the assembly. The “Sunday School in Exile” forum has dealt with this topic also: see http://www.network54.com/Forum/187069/

I have no idea how far this discussion will go. But let’s consider certain points brought up by the above poster in conjunction with facts and with properly “dividing the word of truth”:
  • Of the thousands of congregations in the brotherhood that have identified themselves for so long as “non-instrumental,” how many have become instrument users? Six or seven … including Oak Hills Church [formerly “… of Christ”? Haven’t they all become Community Churches?
  • … and the usual pro-musical instrument posters on this forum—which church(es) are they affiliated with? Or, are they simply dreaming and wishing that their respective congregations would be just like Oak Hills?
  • ”Growing up in the church of Christ” … implying “didn’t question anything … didn’t know any better.”
  • Understanding the definition of “music” (which encompasses either or both instrumental and/or vocal) versus “vocal” [only].
  • The only time “music” is referenced in the NT (Luke 15:25)—what is the passage talking about.
  • The instances in which the book of Psalms mentions musical instruments—was David in the midst of the congregation? What are psalms? “Praise music” or “praise service”—what’s that? The harps in the book of Revelation—taken out of context…? Harps … the Lamb … the Lamb’s book of life … the trumpet(s) … the pipers—LITERALLY? Wow!
  • The “law of silence”—a common defense mechanism!
  • ”The Lord does not change”; therefore, what?
Well, that’s just a few to start with . . . “what is the Big Argument all about????” … according to Luey.

Donnie</font>
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

February 17th, 2006, 1:53 pm #3

Smith asks "What's the BIG argument all about?" Here we go again! We've just had one BIG, GIGANTIC series of arguments about whether or not instrumental music is scriptural in the Boswell-Hardeman thread in the Sunday School in Exile forum. Furthermore, the thread "Most Convincing Outline for Music in Worship," also at Sunday School in Exile, deals with instrumental music. I wonder if Smith has even read those two threads, because I get the impression that he's trying to justify instruments on the basis of arguments which have already been exhaustively disputed back and forth. But if he did read those two other threads and created this new thread in spite of all the pro and con arguments presented therein, then we would have to conclude that his motive is to dredge up and rehash the same old arguments and perpetuate the Fruity Loop.

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Tom Brite
Tom Brite

February 17th, 2006, 3:02 pm #4

Donnie, as you know, I am a member at Oak Hills, but attend the non-intrumental services. Two things that I can tell you on this subject - 1. Instrumental music at Madison may not be an issue now, but it is coming; 2. Instrumental music is more prevalent among churches of Christ than just the 7 or 8 that you mentioned. These were the only ones that were reported in the Christian Chronicle, but I know of at least twenty congregations in Texas that now use instrumental music in some worship services. These are larger, urban congregations, just like Madison. This fight will be fought at Madison, just as it was fought, and lost, to a certain extent at Oak Hills.
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

February 17th, 2006, 5:21 pm #5

Growing up in the church of Christ, I never really questioned anything. But as an adult, I found that I have a mind to think and can voice my opinion.

It seems to me that the argument against instrumental music mainly comes from the doctrine referred as "the Law of Silence" Where the bible is silent, we also should be silent. However, what I have seen is that people of this belief regarding instrumental music are far but silent on the subject.

Please use the law of silence to tell me what is wrong with this conclusion:


First off, I am sure no one on this board will dispute that instruments were use in the Old Testament. The Psalms are full of accounts where David (God's favorite) talks of the use of instruments.

In Revelations, there are accounts from John of instruments in Heaven..

Revelations 5:8 the 24 elders had harps

Revelations 14:2 The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps

Revelations 15 2-3 They held harps given them by God and sang the song of Moses the servant of God and the song of the Lamb.

Now lets go to

Malachi 3:6 "I the LORD do not change.

James 1:17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows

and finally the Lord's prayer:

Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come,
Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven

If instruments were used in the Old Testament and in Heaven, and God does not change. And Jesus said, thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. If the angels had harps, given to them by God, wouldn't this be his will?


Then what is the Big Argument all about????


  • Luey:<font color=red>Growing up in the church of Christ, I never really questioned anything. But as an adult, I found that I have a mind to think and can voice my opinion.

    It seems to me that the argument against instrumental music mainly comes from the doctrine referred as "the Law of Silence" Where the bible is silent, we also should be silent. However, what I have seen is that people of this belief regarding instrumental music are far but silent on the subject.</font>
What is it about SPEAK with ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH using THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN or SCRIPTURE to EDIFY or EDUCATE, GLORIFY GOD and OUTLAW the discord from doubtful or untaught people in Romans 14 that is SO HARD TO GRASP? Only the INSTRUMENTAL fellas USE the LAW OF SILENCE. You have direct commands about what to DO in the ekklesia or school of the Bible in Romans 15 and the "not singing" passages. In Romans 14 you have EXCLUDED anything NOT related to teaching the Word as it has been delivered. The musicators used NO law expept the Lucifer Principle as the "singing and harp playing prostitute" to take people captive and STRIP THEM of their children's health care money. Don't get DRUNK with wine is a statement often found in the literature: it means don't get FLUTED DOWN with wine or PIPED DOWN because no "holy bartender" and TRAFFIC without the flute-girls which translates prostitutes. We have direct testimony that no MALE would do that unless a DRUNK or a PERVERT. Psallo means PLUCK and always points to WARFARE or to PROSTITUTES or SODOMITES "playing the flute to fleed the FAT HEADS and SIMPLETONS" as Lucian of Samosata wrote about Alexander the ORACLE MONGER whom you can see IN CHURCH.

Excuse me, Luey, but you have been listening to the PRO instrumental group. You may have missed the "church in the wilderness" where loud rejoicing and instruments were forbidden because the "civilians" were NEVER called into assembly except to be instructed. Both some first days and later all seventh days were for REST which does not mean WORSHIP. They were to READ or REHEARSE the Word or what the elders had hear when the tribal elders gathered to LEARN say the song of Moses.

The Law of Moses, the king, the Monarchy and the WHOLE period from the musical idolatry at Mount Sinai until they "turned to Jesus" would see leaders BLINDED. The sacrificial system and te temple were LIKE THE NATIONS because Stephen says that their MUSICAL IDOLATRY was their prayer to be TURNED OVER TO WORSHIP THE STARRY HOST.

The people synagogued even in the wilderness which was to QUARANTINE them from "worship rituals" which originated in Babylon including the SABBATH and the TITHE as ritual rather than FREE REST.

Jesus build an ekklesia and Paul defined it in Romans 15 as a "school of the Bible." That is exactly what the Campbells understood. Their view was that you cannot ADD anything to that unless it is DIRECTLY COMMANDED or APPROVED by Jesus or the Apostles. There is no COMMAND to make music and indeed the whole Bible treats it as a SHOW OF CONTEMPT. Not a simple minded kid would sing, clap and play instruments if God REALLY came into their school. Well, only those who have been TURNED OVER to worship the STARS.

You cannot use the fact that God never stated the facts negatively--Thou shalt NOT play a instrument as used by the INSTRUMENTALISTS--as authority to deliberately sow discord.

The Bible is NOT SILENT and the fact that the URBAN COWBOYS in a grand , well oiled plan, can tell you that the Bible is SILENT in condemning is a proof that they are slick willies performing "miracles" just as prophesied.

Now, if you are a DEAD VIRGIN, you are permitted to SYMBOLICALLY hold your harp but this is allways AS which means a parable. And Jesus spoke in PARABLES to the clergy to deliberately BLIND those who had triffled with His Word. A Pharisee is one who CHANGES the Word specificially so he can teach HIS words so he can STEAL from widows using THE LAW OF GIVING. A Scribe is a BOOK WRITER who writes sermons and songs to SILENCE the Word of God. Hypocrites were a SECTARIAN band of merry (yes, gay) men who PERFORMED in rhetorical speaking, singing or playing instruments. Just like Amos, Jesus pronounced WOES on these people

NO JEW ever "worshipped" with congregation singing and instrumental accompaniment. Never. The Levitical Warrior Musicians SERVED or did HARD BONDAGE by making a huge noise to mask the horrors of the slaughter of innocent animals and the smell of blood and dung. That is why Jesus CAST OUT the musican minstrels LIKE ONE EJECTS DUNG.

The Catholic church NEVER engaged in congregational singing with instrumental accompaniment. When you hear MUSIC it is the MARK of the end time Babylon Whore who with all of her musicians, singers, grinders (prostitutes) and craftsmen (theater builders and stage managers) will be transported back to HELL after which there will be REST. I believe people can be STAGED by the MUSICIANS or LOCUSTS who come to separate those with different MARKS.

One of the MARKS of false RELIGIONISTS who SILENCE the voice of God with or without instruments is that ANYONE could ask such questions.

Is MAX headed for Nashville? Heard rumor.
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Tom
Tom

February 17th, 2006, 7:19 pm #6

Ken, don't know about Nashville, but do know he is going to speak at Tulsa this year.
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

February 18th, 2006, 9:18 pm #7

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>Tom,

You brought up some interesting point(s) earlier.

Refresh my memory here. Didn’t Max’s Oak Hills Church begin experimenting with the use of instrumental music in just a small group at first? And that it has expanded in the last couple of years to the point where this congregation (overall) now has the soul-less, lifeless, spirit-less and inanimate musical instruments PARTICIPATE in “worship” with its breathing members? And that the non-instrumental group you’re in is in the minority?

Thanks for the warning to the Madison congregation. That was exactly my point—I could not have expressed it any better. Perhaps, you should write to and really warn the elders of the Madison congregation about the “little” experiment at Oak Hills to which it eventually succumbed. I’m not sure it might do any good in Madison’s situation … since it is my understanding that you and other “concerned members” at Oak Hills had brought it to the attention of its elders—to NO AVAIL.

Frankly, I would not be surprised if your suspicion were to come true.

My own prediction is that the trend towards “instrumental music” will not go much farther. Yes, some of the mega churches are leading the charge. But knowing the “behavior” of those that have been infected with the “Change Movement” disease, what else should one expect? And how many would you really consider as mega churches in the brotherhood? Not many.

But if my prediction were proven to be wrong in the end, then, it would be in the 21st century just like what unfortunately occurred in the beginning of the 20th century—another “Christian Church” splitting and separating from the churches of Christ all over again.

The only viable solution to this problem is for such congregations to leave the brotherhood and join the [instrumental] Christian Churches—which after all has been the objective of the Restoration Movement “reformists.”

Donnie</font>
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Tom
Tom

February 19th, 2006, 3:24 am #8

Donnie, the progression toward instrumental music was very gradual. It began about 20 years ago with the introduction of taped music in children's bible classes. It continued when Oak Hills introduced "Kid's Praise" programs which was an annual Saturday evening show of praise songs and skits by children. Also, there were middle school and high school musicals that were introduced.

In about 1999, following our move to our new building, the Wednesday evening auditorium service became instrumental. Following the construction of a new wing that provided "overflow" room for about 350 people, that service became instrumental and you had the option of attending a Sunday morning service. When the "church of Christ" name was dropped, the main services were still non-instrumental. However, when the decision was made to add Saturday evening services to accomodate the growing crowds, both of those services, along with one Sunday morning service in the main auditorium became instrumental. However, I should point out that since the addition of instruments to the services, the rapid growth of Oak Hills has stopped and leveled off at around 4,500 in attendance. This is basically the same attendance as was seen about 2 years ago.

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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

February 19th, 2006, 6:25 am #9

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>Tom,

Thanks for the information.

It confirms the motive of the change agents that implementation of the scheme should be done very gradually and subtly. This has happened at Madison with the implementation of what the representatives from Madison had learned during their visit to the Saddleback Community Church compound in California.

It was done so gradually and subtly that hardly anyone (including myself) ever noticed it at Madison until it was too late. Outcome…? Its attendance has dwindled from the 3100s down to 1650-1750 on the average.

There are still many conservative members left who probably have nowhere else to go. I believe that one way for the Madison congregation to recover (at least somewhat) from its loss is to retire its holy entertainment/concert practices, including its current “musical” worship leadership. Let the congregation sing once again WITHOUT the aid of “Praise Team” performances, its rhythmic clapping that I have referred to as “programmed joy,” the non-sense o-o-o-oinking and unintelligible sounds that simulate musical instrumentation. [Of course, I realize that the problems and issues go far deeper than just “worship” style and content. Doctrinal matters are of major significance—the purpose of baptism (which has sadly been labeled as dunking only to get wet), the misuse and abuse of God’s grace, etc.] These are all DIVISIVE issues.

Based on Oak Hills’ sampling experience, should the current “shepherds” decide to implement the use of instruments at Madison, it appears that we would be seeing further decline in membership.

Again, thanks for the info.

Donnie</font>
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Bud Carron
Bud Carron

February 19th, 2006, 6:22 pm #10

Donnie, the progression toward instrumental music was very gradual. It began about 20 years ago with the introduction of taped music in children's bible classes. It continued when Oak Hills introduced "Kid's Praise" programs which was an annual Saturday evening show of praise songs and skits by children. Also, there were middle school and high school musicals that were introduced.

In about 1999, following our move to our new building, the Wednesday evening auditorium service became instrumental. Following the construction of a new wing that provided "overflow" room for about 350 people, that service became instrumental and you had the option of attending a Sunday morning service. When the "church of Christ" name was dropped, the main services were still non-instrumental. However, when the decision was made to add Saturday evening services to accomodate the growing crowds, both of those services, along with one Sunday morning service in the main auditorium became instrumental. However, I should point out that since the addition of instruments to the services, the rapid growth of Oak Hills has stopped and leveled off at around 4,500 in attendance. This is basically the same attendance as was seen about 2 years ago.
A number of elders from the Hillcrest Church of Christ also made the obligitory journey to Saddleback a few years ago to learn the "growing" secret of Rick Warren's success. He has been so successful that it is reported that Rick has offered $340 million for the New Orleans Saints. Hillcrest is advertising an Acappella concert in its February 19, 2006, bulletin. Check it out.
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