Instrumental Music

Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

February 28th, 2006, 5:08 am #41

Here are your Stats:

Source: Churches of Christ in the United States 2006 edition

2003 13,155 Congregations
2006 12,963 Congregations

2003 1,276,621 Members;
2006 1,265,844 Members

Dropping in #. Sorry Bill

And just think some of these members are of the "Fruity Loop"

Of course this source is listing the One Cuppers, Non-Class, Mutual Edification, and Non Institutional Churches, which you probably do not agree with.
Well, it looks like CC found the time and the energy to show that indeed the c of C is dwindling, something he initially wasn't willing or able to do. Of course, I did say that I would take him at his word about the c of C without statistics. I congratulate him in showing that this faith is dropping (CC would say "dying"). So I guess we're just gonna have to pack up and leave and go over to the denominations that pick and choose what they'll follow in the NT and that pack 'em in with the entertainment. After all, folks ARE flocking to the Purpose-Driven churches in droves where they have their "freedom." Let me muse on this a bit, and I'll get back...

...I'm back. Naw, I'll hold on to the true faith and trust the NT in its prediction that as the end of time draws closer and closer, there will be more and more people falling away from the true faith and flocking as apostates to those false teachers who deceive folks with pleasant words and fair speech. I'd say the Change Movement is one good source for fair speech, false teaching, and deception. Christ advised us to observe the times for signs of the end. We don't know the EXACT day or hour, but we can see when things are gradually falling into place as per NT predictions.
Quote
Share

Concerned Christian
Concerned Christian

February 28th, 2006, 6:34 am #42

CC and Jack,

Go back and read your postings. Note that everything you write is about what YOU want and how You feel and has NOTHING to do with the scriptures. Isn't that interesting?

If we were to follow your command, we would no longer even need the Bible. You have made it a useless book, a reminder of days gone by. YOU are what the Apostles and Jesus warned us about. You fit all the criteria for a "false teacher".

You don't have any idea of God's love or what it takes to be a Christian, because you have distanced yourself from the Word. You go on and on about "love", but love includes your behavior and following God's commands. You are like a rebellious child, thinking you know more than the parent.

Take CC's comments on the early Church elders "opinions". Is that not the biggest cop-out! By the way CC, those comments were in regards to scriptures and what the Apostles had taught at their church. Yes, they had the same scriptures and even referred to them in these "opinion" pieces, though they were known as letters and memoires instead of Books.

And Jack's comments are about as unChristian as you can get without actually cursing. And that's the love your churches are teaching? The love of ignorance and ridicule?

You are so determined to stick your head in the sand and play "dumb", that you don't even make sense anymore.

You've been made aware. Your actions are no longer on my conscience. Good luck...you will need it.
PPB,

You have made me aware of nothing. I grew up with it. Nothing you say hurts or shocks me. You and other CM's make Heaven difficult to obtain, I know because I used to do the same thing. PPB, You and I have a goal of Heaven, I just choose to not assume things like the usage of instruments as being a salvation issue for example.

I have said to friends in the past and I will share with you my thoughts on majoring in Bible. It was/has been the best thing that ever happened to me. The reason it was the best is because it opened my eyes to a Gospel of peace and developing a Relationship with God loosening the chains of bondage. I thought if I memorized a bunch of verses that would in some way get me to Heaven. If I/our team won Bible Bowls it would get us closer to THE Prize. How foolish I was.

PPB I pulled my head out of the sand a long time ago and it has been so awesome!

Also please study what a false teacher is. It is not someone that believes instruments are OK either.

I believe Jesus is the Savior and that is the truth. I believe He came here to FREE people, not make a tricky road of do's and don'ts that we would make into a COMMAND and then in turn become judge, jury, and executioner.

Please be careful that you do not get caught up in judging people's hearts. You do not know me and your words are full of anger.

In all sincerity...Thanks for the prayers it is great when fellow Christians Pray for each other, I too will pray for you that you be strong against Satan and his fiery darts that come your way.

Peace

Quote
Share

Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

February 28th, 2006, 2:35 pm #43

Good info. Read it a million times. Please reference what churches are having Sex on stage and Orgies in worship due to these dreaded instruments.

Once again these men were arguing there opinions. They were not basing it on anything out of Paul's Text. I still do not agree with you and will never go back to shackling myself to such things that are not a COMMAND.

"Mark Minucius Felix c. 200 - discusses how the assembly and our lives should be done in quietness."

If you are going to add this to your new scriptures then you must follow it it to a "T"

Let's get together and be quiet, I could interpret these "new scriptures" as silence...no talking!!!

Remember the early Christians left the Synagogues and Temple and were in hiding. I would be quiet too. I would not start banging on some drum or cymbal...I would be quiet! My life would depend on it.
CC: "Once again these men [whom PPB quoted] were arguing there [sic] opinions. They were not basing it on anything out of Paul's Text. I still do not agree with you and will never go back to shackling myself to such things that are not a COMMAND."

Dr. Crump: Paul's texts in Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16 specify using vocal music. Yet CC apparently only recognizes these as "suggestions" (church of Christ "tradition") which may be taken or left at will, not as specific commands. This is indeed an assumption on CC's part, for in his epistles, Paul clearly identifies those few passages that are his own opinions and not the dictates of the Spirit of Christ. Everything else Paul received through the Spirit of Christ. For example, while discussing the problems of marriage, Paul states:

"But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If a brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away" (1 Cor. 7:12 KJV).

Paul wrote what was given to him through the Spirit of Christ (Gal. 1:11-12), and what personal opinions he interjected he clearly flagged them beforehand. It would have been heresy on Paul's part to do otherwise.

What Paul wrote about vocal music came from the Spirit of Christ. Since Paul did not flag it as his personal opinion, it is a COMMAND. Now for our general readers:
  • The Christ-centered person does not add instruments when the NT does not authorize instruments in worship, for to do so is arrogant assumption.
  • The Christ-centered person does not add instruments just because the NT does not condemn them by name, for to do so is arrogant assumption.
  • The Christ-centered person gladly obeys ALL things whatsoever Christ commanded us (Matt. 28:20) through the Gospels and the apostolic writers. This means that everything written therein that is not clearly flagged as human opinion is to be followed with faithful obedience; not some of it; not a little of it; but ALL of it. This includes vocal music.
  • The Christ-centered person does not try to find loopholes in those commands or slight them to satisfy his own preferences.
  • To the Christ-centered person, Christ's commands, including that of vocal music, are hardly "shackles" or "grievous" (1 John 5:3 KJV).
Quote
Share

Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

February 28th, 2006, 9:21 pm #44

PPB,

You have made me aware of nothing. I grew up with it. Nothing you say hurts or shocks me. You and other CM's make Heaven difficult to obtain, I know because I used to do the same thing. PPB, You and I have a goal of Heaven, I just choose to not assume things like the usage of instruments as being a salvation issue for example.

I have said to friends in the past and I will share with you my thoughts on majoring in Bible. It was/has been the best thing that ever happened to me. The reason it was the best is because it opened my eyes to a Gospel of peace and developing a Relationship with God loosening the chains of bondage. I thought if I memorized a bunch of verses that would in some way get me to Heaven. If I/our team won Bible Bowls it would get us closer to THE Prize. How foolish I was.

PPB I pulled my head out of the sand a long time ago and it has been so awesome!

Also please study what a false teacher is. It is not someone that believes instruments are OK either.

I believe Jesus is the Savior and that is the truth. I believe He came here to FREE people, not make a tricky road of do's and don'ts that we would make into a COMMAND and then in turn become judge, jury, and executioner.

Please be careful that you do not get caught up in judging people's hearts. You do not know me and your words are full of anger.

In all sincerity...Thanks for the prayers it is great when fellow Christians Pray for each other, I too will pray for you that you be strong against Satan and his fiery darts that come your way.

Peace
CC: "You and other CM's make Heaven difficult to obtain."

Dr. Crump: That's because Heaven IS difficult to obtain, something CC continues to ignore. To him, broad is the way to salvation; it is ecumenical. But to Christ:

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it" (Matt. 7:13-14 KJV).

Not all who say "Lord, Lord," will enter into the kingdom of Heaven, but only those who do the will of the Father in Heaven (Matt. 7:21-23 KJV). To do the will of the Father is to obey His Word to the Letter, whether that be about music, baptism, or selection of MALE deacons, for example. Here's something that many do not realize:

Every word of God/Christ in the New Testament, every command, every principle IS a salvation issue!

We take five initial steps to become a Christian, according to principles found in the NT, but obedience doesn't stop there. The grace of Christ does not preclude our continued and fervent obedience to everthing that He commanded. Every word of God/Christ in the NT is to be obeyed as much as is humanly possible, for Christ commanded that we observe ALL things whatsoever He commanded us (Matt. 28:20). What He has commanded is ALL written in the Gospels and the apostolic epistles. And if the apostolic writers inserted any of their personal "opinions" that were not from God, they made sure that they were flagged accordingly (cf. Paul's opinion about marriage in 1 Cor. 7:12). I will repeat this as much as it takes until rebels and renegades acknowledge it, for it is TRUTH.

To the Christ-centered person, obedience to Christ's words in the NT is neither "bondage" nor "shackles" but PLEASURE. Unfortunately, CC continues to place more stock in his "higher education," his "Bible degree," and the scholarship of men, which have emancipated him from the "bondage" of rules and regulations, even those inherent in the New Testament.

Ladies and gentlemen, "Concerned Christian," a person who bears a cowardly, oxymoron of an alias given his ultra liberal, theological stance that smacks of the heretical Change Movement, is a hopeless case.
Quote
Share

Concerned Christian
Concerned Christian

March 1st, 2006, 2:56 am #45

Bill,

I am glad you are Pleasured by your religious beliefs. I am pleasured by mine. I am sorry you make Heaven Hard to achieve. Thank God Jesus Died for us and that we are judged by how we live our lives through Him instead of being judged on every bad thing we may do. I do not sin so Grace may abound. I have just come to grips with the Fact that I am not perfect and let Jesus do the leading.

Your interpretaions of Male and Female deacons is wrong by the way. I know I know the "Fruity Loop" thing.

Please follow to the Book to the Letter on everything. Have your wife cover her head this Sunday or shave it. Greet people with a Holy Kiss. Serve your communion differently this Sunday. Luke 22: 17-21

Bill, You make it sound like I am an Anti-Christ. I John 2:22 I am just a man trying to get through this life and being in bondage is of no interest to me. Being in Christ is Freedom, not in a sense like you make it "where I think everything goes." I relize there is a responsibility to uphold Jesus' teachings. Once again everything you need to know about Godly living is in Jesus' Sermon on the Mount.

May God Give you peace as you labor for Him.
Quote
Share

Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

March 1st, 2006, 4:54 am #46

CC: "I am sorry you make Heaven Hard to achieve."

Dr. Crump: We'll try again for the hard-headed. Christ, not Dr. Crump, said:

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it" (Matt. 7:13-14 KJV).

Might want to reconsider Who it really was that said it's tough to get into heaven.

BTW, when you gonna ditch that cowardly alias?
Quote
Share

David Rhoades
David Rhoades

March 1st, 2006, 3:31 pm #47

Bill,

I am glad you are Pleasured by your religious beliefs. I am pleasured by mine. I am sorry you make Heaven Hard to achieve. Thank God Jesus Died for us and that we are judged by how we live our lives through Him instead of being judged on every bad thing we may do. I do not sin so Grace may abound. I have just come to grips with the Fact that I am not perfect and let Jesus do the leading.

Your interpretaions of Male and Female deacons is wrong by the way. I know I know the "Fruity Loop" thing.

Please follow to the Book to the Letter on everything. Have your wife cover her head this Sunday or shave it. Greet people with a Holy Kiss. Serve your communion differently this Sunday. Luke 22: 17-21

Bill, You make it sound like I am an Anti-Christ. I John 2:22 I am just a man trying to get through this life and being in bondage is of no interest to me. Being in Christ is Freedom, not in a sense like you make it "where I think everything goes." I relize there is a responsibility to uphold Jesus' teachings. Once again everything you need to know about Godly living is in Jesus' Sermon on the Mount.

May God Give you peace as you labor for Him.
Tools of The Godless

Occasionally we have to remind folks why this web site exist, because one of the tools of the Godless is confusion.

Today's church has been infiltrated by the Godless. (1)

Our mission is to warn you. Our mission is not to condemn those that use instrumental music, but to warn you that they will try to take over your church.

Never has a church been infiltrated and taken over by a non-instrumental group.

Their tools are the lie, confusion, and thievery.

Watch them as they tell you that you are the cause of division. Your old ways are outdated, and are the reasons for the death of the church.

Beware that these Godless impostors are among you. They pretend to pray with you, and preach from your pulpits.

They take advantage of the Christian's lack of knowledge about something that evil being present in the church.

They pretend to be your loving brother, while only seeking to take your soul.

Yes, there are those that have been duped by the Godless. We must warn you of both.

At first they will pretend to study with you, but it's only to compromise you.

Be Careful My Brother and Sister.

Their goal is apostasy of the Lords' Church.

As their tongues speak of love, unity, diverstiy, and the Great Commission, their actions show their true fruit.

(1) The Intentional Infiltration of the church by the Anti-Apostles
http://www.concernedmembers.com/editorials/takeover.htm



Quote
Share

Concerned Christian
Concerned Christian

March 1st, 2006, 3:36 pm #48

CC: "I am sorry you make Heaven Hard to achieve."

Dr. Crump: We'll try again for the hard-headed. Christ, not Dr. Crump, said:

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it" (Matt. 7:13-14 KJV).

Might want to reconsider Who it really was that said it's tough to get into heaven.

BTW, when you gonna ditch that cowardly alias?
He did not say it was difficult to enter Heaven. You are reading into it. Are you saying there is a limitation to obtaining the goal?

God does NOT want people to go to Hell. He established a Law for people to understand boundaries. He then brought the Law of Christ which is Grace Driven. No one is perfect, and when clothed in Christ's Blood I am confident that I am going to Heaven. Your comments remind me of class I was teaching recently. We had a few "crispers" like you that were not sure if they were going to heaven they just "Hoped" that they were going to Heaven. 50/50 chance? WOW! How do people not have confidence? That is the Fear Factor that has been engrained into Christians Heads for years! It amazes me how we cannot have the confidence that by Following Christ we will win! We are promised that!

There is no way any of us deserve Heaven, which is why He sent Jesus here to save us. I guess trying to undo 40-50-60+ years of theology are hard for some to do.

Jesus is the answer and I believe that. There are people out there denying Christ all over the globe, but do not accuse me of NOT believing in Him or making Him difficult to become a Brother to.

Let's look at what Jesus did not say..."it would be tricky and hopefully you will make it. Hope to see you there."

I am completely blown away at the ignorance of some.
Quote
Share

Jack Mann
Jack Mann

March 1st, 2006, 4:44 pm #49

CC: "I am sorry you make Heaven Hard to achieve."

Dr. Crump: We'll try again for the hard-headed. Christ, not Dr. Crump, said:

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it" (Matt. 7:13-14 KJV).

Might want to reconsider Who it really was that said it's tough to get into heaven.

BTW, when you gonna ditch that cowardly alias?
Mr. Crump, you quote from Matthew, chapter 7, the Lords "Sermon on the Mount."
Matthew tells us in the beginning of chapter 7 that Jesus said, "Judge not, that you be not judged." His command here, lays down a general principle in the form of universal prohibition. This principle is, of course, to be limited by other Scriptural laws concerning judgment. As you know, our judgment of Christians must be charitable (John 7:24; 1 Cor. 13:5,6), in remembrance of the fact that they are God's servants (Ro. 14:4); and that He reserves to himself the ultimate right to judging both you and me (Ro. 14:4; ! Cor. 4:3,4; 2 Cor. 5:10).

If we are to pick and choose from what Jesus said on that Mountain Plateau not far from Capernaum, we must conclude that all the "poor in spirit" will be in heaven for in Matthew 5 we read, "Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Jesus said, "the pure in heart" will "see God." Do you have a "pure heart" Mr. Crump?
How about the "peacemakers? Jesus said, "they shall be called the sons of God." Have you made "peace" with anyone Mr. Crump? If so, you are IN! Jesus said, "blessed are the poor, for yours is the kingdom of God." That puts a whole lot of people IN. Begins to "widen" the "narrow gate" does it not?

A Bible student would do well to research who was among the crowd listening to Jesus on that historical day. You are aware that the Roman Catholic Church has built its doctrine of purgatory on verses 25, 26 of Matthew 5? We must keep in mind that the Bible was written by men with a near-Eastern culture, and not a church of Christ member from Paducah, Kentucky. Jesus, in summarizing his teaching would say, "By their fuits you shall know them; for each tree is known by its own fruit." He is saying here: teachers are to be judged by their conduct as men and also by the effect of their teaching. If either be predominately bad, the man must be avoided. But, Mr. Crump, you and I must not judge hastily, nor by slight or trivial actions, for some specimens of bad fruit grows on good trees. I have grown to be fond of Mr. Sublett's rhetoric, I believe he means well. Therefore, I will refrain from judging those on this forum and become a "peacemaker".
Keep your sunny side up.
Jack Mann
Quote
Share

PPB
PPB

March 2nd, 2006, 2:32 am #50

Amazed continued: We showed you what the SPIRITUAL EYE sees when the thinglings MOUNT the podium. Here is some of the background so maybe you, too, will want to flee Babylon or be MARKED by the BEAST who is also known as Eve or Zoe the female instructing principle. Paul knew more about Eve than we do if we have been sung into illiteracy: trust him.

<font color=purple>"The term 'ca-na-na-um' was used by the inhabitants as early as 3500 BC (Aubet). The Hebrew "cana'ani" meant merchant, but the original meaning may have come from Akkadian kinahhu - red-colored wool, which may have in turn given their descendents the name Phoenician.</font>
  • <font color=blue>Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts. Zec.14:21</font>
How we gonna solve that problem since the invasion of the BODY SNATCHERS? Well, Revelation 18 defines the RETURN of the forskin collecort MOTHER. In 18:22 we see that woe promounced on rhetorical speakers, singers and musicians understanding that the WHEEL speaks a "musical sound" and that concubines or prostitutes were the GRINDERS, they too will have to quit bumping and grinding in the SCHOOL ROOM. Jesus solves the problem: when the HAREM OF THE GODS or the SECTARIAN singers or musicians COME IN then in verse 19 Jesus removes His LAMPSTAND or LAMPS of the seven SPIRITS which are not wee little "forest spirits" but forms of Divine knowledge you NEED In the school house.

You may have missed Jesus affirming that the CLERGY were of the SEED of Abraham but we know that they were NOT of Isaac. Therefore, the RELIGIOUS FUNCTIONARIES have always ben ARABS. Arab means AMBUSH.
  • <font color=blue>Kenaaniy (h3669) ken-ah-an-ee'; patrial from 3667; a Kenaanite or inhabitant of Kenaan; by impl. a pedlar (the Canaanites standing for their neighbors the Ishmaelites, who conducted mercantile caravans): - Canaanite, merchant, trafficker.

    Kenaan (g3667) ken-ah'-an; from 3665; humiliated; Kenaan, a son of Ham; also the country inhabited by him: - Canaan, merchant, traffick.

    Kana (h3665) kaw-nah'; a prim. root; prop. to bend the knee; hence to humiliate, vanquish: - bring down (low), into subjection, under, humble (self), subdue. </font>
<font color=purple>Central to the Semitic notion of deity is El, the old fatherly creator god and his consort, Athirat or Asherah. "Both were primordial beings, they had been there always." El, whose name simply meant 'god' was the creator and procreator, overseer of conception, who sired the gods, thus being also called 'Bull El' in continuity with the ancient bull god of fertility. Asherah and El thus form a creation hieros-gamos of male and female, representing the bull and the earth goddess we see emerging from the ancient continuum at Catal Huyuk. El is supposed to have gone out to sea and asked two Goddesses, one presumably being Athirat and the other possibly Anath to choose between being his spouses and being his daughters.
  • They chose the former. Their offspring are Shaher and Shalem, the morning and evening stars, from which Lucifer, the light-bearer, takes his name.
</font> Lucifer, of course, in later incarnations is Sophia-Zoe.

<font color=purple>In the Canaanite myth, a new and possibly Akkadian outsider, whose name is Ba'al Haddad or Lord enters the situation in hated competition with Asherah and her children by El. He is a young, warlike god of wind and thunderstorms and thus fertility itself. Unlike El, he is not judicious, frequently figuring in situations from which he must be saved. In this respect he displays a significant parallel to Dumuzi (Tammuz) among the Mesopotamians, which will prove to be of significance. He also has the hideous attribute of devouring his own children, consistent with infanticide practices of several semitic patron gods. See Tammuz worship by the women at Jerusalem

Initially Ba'al and Anat are members of El's court. Ba'al attacks El by surprise and castrates him, assuming the power of his fertility. In effect, Ba'al becomes the central iINTERMEDIARY of paternal cosmic order ... "it is Ba'al's responsibility to ensure El's benevolent intention is realized", but he does not replace the primal creative power of El. </font>

Now, they pronounce Jesus Christ incompetent to preserve His Word and we "gonna partner with God to get a new supply." They also promise to lead you into the presence of God which means that they ARE standing in the Most Holy Place claiming to BE God.

<font color=purple>"Anath was fertilized by the blood of men, rather than semen, because her worship dated all the way back to the neolithic, when fatherhood was unknown and blood was considered the only substance which could transmit life.
  • Hecatombs of [100] men seem to have been sacrificed to Anath when her image was reddened with rouge and henna for the occasion. Like the Lady of the Serpent Skirt,

    Anath hung the shorn penises of her victims on her goatskin apron or aegis." "Anath's capacity to curse and kill made even the Heavenly Father afraid of her. When El seemed reluctant to do her bidding, she threatened to smash his head and cover his grey hair and beard with gore. He hastily gave her everything she asked, saying 'Whoever hinders thee will be crushed' " (Walker 30).
</font>If you do the ANTIPHONAL response as a kind of "battle of singing parts" then you are singing in the style of ANAH. That was the STYLE of musical MOCKING by which the CANAANITES or KENITES whol always controlled the Temple (a like the nation's Mega-church where God knew they wanted to WORSHIP like the nations).

In the Babylonian Tablets this is Inanna who got Ea--the patron of music--and stole the ME which gave her the power of the Eldership, making music and sexual perversion.

http://www.piney.com/BabEaGifts.html

Mark the spot: you are there.

<font color=purple>"The papacy also continued the practice of creating castratos (a cappella worship Leaders who were boys castrated before puberty to keep their singing voices high-pitched) for their own entertainment, long after it had fallen in disfavor throughout Italy."

"Into this artificial world came the castrati, who had first gained a place in Italian churches for their 'angelic' voices.
  • Castratos are said to have been the world's first superstars, because of the great sums paid to them for their singing, and scheduled engagements that took them to cities across Europe, to please their enthusiastic followers.
"How can we hear their music today, since we have no more castratos to listen to? Well, during the current renaissance in Baroque music, some castrato roles have been carefully recreated by counter-tenors also known as male altos or sopranos. Other musical parts are sung by women who use a natural alto or soprano range,
  • but adopt a style which attempts to make the music sound
    appropriately 'masculine',at least for male roles.
There is much debate as to which is better--but keeping in mind the fact that most early composers wrote 'trouser' roles for women to sing, and that castratos frequently presented women's roles, especially in their youth, it would seem that gender stretching is an original part of this music, and perhaps one reason for its continuing dramatic impact."</font>

When you HEAR this taking place in the ekklesia or school of Christ and His Word, you know that some FEMALE "Goddess" is behind the scene wearing a skirt of shorn penesis.
CC,

By the way, your comment about tracks the other day really bothered me. Who learns from a track? Is that what these "enlightened" churches are now doing? Do you guys study books instead of the actual Bible?

Please be careful about throwing around your "biblical training" on this site. You are only one of many who have studied theology at college, so we aren't impressed. In fact, I have to admit that I am horrified at the lack of basic biblical understanding I see in the younger college grads. It's so sad to see that they can't interpret the bible by themselves and must rely on their professors' opinions. Do they not teach Greek and Hebrew anymore? Is it just one or two classes? What has changed?

Let's keep this simple for those that aren't comfortable with all the ins and outs of understanding a foreign language...

"Because strait is the gate" -
- strait (stenos, adj)- desciption meaning narrow, small
gate (pule)noun,fem - an entrance or opening to a city or palace, metaphorically relates to entry into heaven.
- because (hoti) demonstrative conjunction - the joining of two verbs or sayings (strait is the gate & narrow is the way)

"and narrow is the way," -
- Narrow (thlibo) - condensed, squeezed, compressed, thin ....
- Way (hodos) - literally means path, metaphorically means behavior/conduct

"which leadeth unto life" -
- leadeth (apago) - as a verb it means to lead away to a certain end
- life (zoe) - absolute fullness of life - to last forever
metaphorically means an everlasting state of being with God

"and few there be that find it" -
- few (oligos, adj) meaning few, little, small number
- and (kai, conj) cumulative events, 1 + 1 = 2
- find (heurisko, v) present/active - to find, discover, seek, etc. As an active verb, it clearly indicates one must take action.
- it (autos) - pronoun, demonstrative - relating back to the word life.

*************

Let's give this an intellectual review and not an OPINION. Take away your preconceived notions and read the sentence as it was written. Read it in its simple version without relying on someone else's interpretation:
  • BECAUSE narrow is the entry and thin is the path which leads to everlasting life with God
    AND only a small number there are that will seek and discover that everlasting life.
**************

Did I miss something here? I don't see anything here that tells me that lot's of people will find everlasting life or fullness of life. No one's arguing that God doesn't want everyone to make it, of course he does and he says so. But he also states that he knows it isn't going to happen. He already knows what will be.

Do you remember how he destroyed entire cities? The flood? How many survived that onslaught? Many? No...8. 8 People!!! God hasn't changed in his demand to be obeyed - only how we obey him has changed (Old Law vs. Christ's death). He warned us that even though he love us, he is also a vengeful and jealous God. It amazes me how people seem to forget this side of God and only see him as one-dimensional. He is both! Loving and forgiving to those that obey his commands, vengeful to those that do not. I do not lessen his power and authority as your interpretation tries to do.

Rom 12:19 Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but [rather] give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance [is] mine; I will repay, saith the Lord

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Mat 7:21 NOT EVERY ONE that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, SHALL ENTER into the kingdom of HEAVEN; but he that DOETH THE WILL of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: DEPART FROM ME, ye that work iniquity.


Quote
Share