Instrumental Music

Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

February 27th, 2006, 4:32 pm #31

Other posters,

Please forgive me for my following comments if you find them upsetting. They are written with a very sad and heavy heart, not an angry one. But people read things from their own perspective and may react differently. I'm just sick and tired of how Amazed (and a few others) treats people on this site. In fact, I hardly come here anymore because of the attitude of some of the new posters. They remind me of Walt and 9iron.

Amazed,

As for your questions, do I really need to answer them? It's just a ploy to try and get people off the subject matter and the facts by bringing up ridiculous issues that are not related by any stretch of the imagination. LAst time...

You know, I started addressing each of them and realized, YOU KNOW THE ANSWERS and I'm wasting my time. You know these questions are silly and unrelated to the topic at hand. You know that your questions are in full of incorrect assumptions. I'm not going to play this game with you any longer. You can look on this site yourself for the answers to such questions...I know I and others have posted responses to them before.

YOu can't handle the scriptural truth and are trying to find a way around what you want vs. what God commanded. You know it and I know it. Most importantly, God knows it. That's answer enough for me.
PPB: "You know, I started addressing each of [the detractors' questions] and realized, YOU KNOW THE ANSWERS and I'm wasting my time."

Dr. Crump: PPB, you’ve hit the nail on the head. The detractors who post on this site are well known for asking a series of questions, fully knowing what the answers are. Then they initiate a tangential discussion in an attempt to misdirect the train of thought. After a few weeks, they come back and ask the same questions again, perhaps in a different thread, and the cycle repeats. It’s their design to create confusion on this site, if we allow them to do so. David Rhoades directed our attention to this phenomenon as the “Fruity Loop.” One particular guy was really adept at doing this a year or so ago. He’d start with the question series, do the tangential thing, then come back later and pose the same questions again, but worded in a different manner so that it would appear as if he were asking “new” questions. His responses to our answers consisted primarily of taunts and jeers.

The music threads here are repetitious examples. We had the Boswell-Hardeman thread in the Sunday School in Exile forum, which pretty much covered everything about the pros and cons of instrumental music. That thread was finally closed to stop the incessant, repetitious discussions. Then the “Most Convincing” music thread popped up in SSE, and the whole mess started again. And wouldn’t ya know, a third music thread, “Instrumental Music,” broke out in the Madison forum, which just churned up the same old arguments even further! And now Concerned Christian, who worships in a c of C but whose heart loves the Change Movement, has been giving us his example of tangential lines in a music thread by repeatedly asking about “women covering their heads” and “wearing jewelry.” It's all been covered previously elsewhere. Anything to divert the discussion and hopefully make things confusing! How utterly desperate those detractors are!

Detractors come here, not to learn anything about the Bible or how to worship, but to promote the heresies of the Change Movement and to revile those of us who disagree with them. These detractors fit the description of those mentioned in Romans 16:17-18 (KJV) who cause “divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned…they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.”

It's time to put the detractors on the shelf.
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Jack Mann
Jack Mann

February 27th, 2006, 4:41 pm #32

…I don’t need for Concerned Christian to provide any statistical evidence to back his claim that the church of Christ is shrinking, that people are leaving it for the denominations or other “faiths” that have become sucked into the heresies of the Change Movement. I take CC’s word completely. I wouldn’t be surprised if, one day in the near future, CC posted a message that said in effect, “All who ever belonged to the church of Christ, including yours truly, have finally left it for greener pastures, leaving David Rhoades, Ken Sublett, Donnie Cruz, PPB, Jimmy Wren, and Dr. Bill Crump as the sole remnants of that faith on this earth.”

Would this mean that we in the church of Christ had been wrong all along in completely trusting and obeying what was written in the New Testament, adding nothing to it, taking nothing from it?

Would this mean that we had been wrong to stay on the narrow path by keeping our worship simple, holy, and without raucous pop music and worldly entertainment to draw pleasure-seeking crowds?

Would this mean that we had been wrong not to have altered and rewritten the doctrines of the new Testament to keep pace with the mindset of a perverse, godless, culture-oriented society?

Would this mean that the Change Movement will have utterly defeated us, should our numbers dwindle to virtually nothing, while theirs soar to astronomical heights?

What would this mean?

This would mean that the prophecies and admonitions of Christ in the Gospels and in the apostolic writings were being fulfilled:
  • Broad and easy is the path to destruction; many will flock to it. Narrow and difficult is the path to salvation; few will ever find it (Matt. 7:13-14 KJV).
  • Though the Word of God be preached, eventually the time will come when people will turn away from the Truth and sound doctrine of the New Testament. Caving in to their own lusts and preferences, they will embrace the alien theologies of other “teachers,” who, with pleasant speech, will convince the undiscerning to spurn the Truth (Romans 16:17-18; 2 Tim. 4:1-4 KJV).
  • False teachers shall come by stealth and lure many to embrace “damnable heresies” and shall speak evil of the Truth (2 Peter 2:1-3 KJV).
According to the New Testament, the closer to the end of time we come, the number of apostates will climb, while the numbers of the faithful will dwindle. Yes, CC, if the truly faithful members of the church of Christ are truly falling, and since the numbers who embrace the heretical Change Movement are definitely climbing with each new day, all is taking place right on schedule.
When I read Dr. Crump's post I had to go back up and make sure it wasn't the J.W's, Jimmy Swaggart or Jerry Falwell posting. Interesting that Jesus said, "It is not for you to know the times or seasons, which the Father has put in his own authority." Paul would say to (the non-instrumental?) church in Thessalonica: "But of the times and the seasons, brethern, you have no need that I write to you, For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night."

Gentlemen, the Kingdom has come. Shame on you Dr. Crump, you comprehension of "the kingdom of God" is that of Nicodemus. Jesus' answer to you would be: "Are you a teacher of the New Testament and know not these things?"


No, Dr. Crump, you will not be seated at the Lord's right hand and Ken on the left with the remnant of David, Donnie, PPB, or Jimmy lounging on benches in the Upper room. You see, the "promise" was not made just to the "elete" by the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:39. No, you will not have your own "good old boys" fraternity where you and the "boys" will "black ball" those who have been "baptized into Christ for the foregiveness of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit." Jesus would say, "Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces. and the chief seats in the synagogues and the uppermost rooms at feasts."

To those who love the Lord and have gone out into the by-ways and preached Christ are servants of the Lord. Yes, Dr. Crump we have "received a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, reverence, and godly awe: Let brotherly love continue."
Jack Mann
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Amazed
Amazed

February 27th, 2006, 4:45 pm #33

First, to be A capella, you have to be a virgin and celibate: that means no erotic having sex in the holy places. That is what they say about ALL priestly roles. Did I tell you that the musical PRECENTER was the "first heresy largely pervading the church." The next was SINGING as an ACT of worship was added as late as 373. So, what you are doing is religionism but not REMOTELY connected to what Jesus founded for the "tiny minority." Jesus WILL NOT be in the MULTITUDES other than to lead you captive.

Next, we have to CASTRATE you. [If the testesterone test proves positive] That is the meaning of a capella. The word derives from one meaning of the Greek CANTUS <font color=blue>the production of melodious sound, a musical utterance or expression, either with voice or instrument</font> if you are a GOAT SINGER then you may not be permitted to know that MELODY is not HARMONY. Harmony often meant MOVING TOGETHER as the musicators MADE MELODY where PSALLO is always connected to homosexual performances. It includes

<font color=blue>2. With instruments, a playing, music: in nervorum vocumque cantibus: citharae, horribili stridebat tibia cantu, Querulae tibiae, Of an actor: cantus remissiores facere, </font>

LOTS of people DON'T see you thinglings as CUTE as you see yourselves. All history knows that HARMONY generates off key overtones which HURT. Horribili stridebat tibia cantu is what God OUTLAWED for the synagogue or church in the wilderness when the people assembled ONLY for teaching the Word.

Now the SECT of the Hypocrites were one of the groups denounced by Jesus. All musical PERFORMERS--especially moving together--are ACTORS where performance. is two or three REMOVES from the FACTS.

The word Queruus complaints, complaining, querulous
  • <font color=blue>Softly complaining, uttering a plaintive sound, murmuring, cooing, warbling, chirping, querulae cicadae, capella,

    Capella is a SHE GOAT although PAN the BEAST was bisexual
    </font>
I hate to show this to sensitive eyes but about HALF of the "audience" see this going on in the Holy Place you have invaded so don't blame ME for what the PERFORMING musicators actually signal with ORGANIC ORGANS or MECHANICAL organs:
Cicadae are the Locusts or Muses of Apollo. Satan unleased them as a MARK of the end time whore.
  • <font color=blue>Horribilis terrible, fearful, dreadful, horrible

    Spectacuum (contr. specta-clum a show, sight, spectacle (class.).
    </font>
Don't you guys do a SPECTACLE OF WORSHIP?

All SINGING in order to AROUSE the "moving together" or even simple harmony is claimed to MOVE the worshipers into the presence of God. Therefore, YOU are a witch and by count there should be ONLY ONE warlock to every ten thousand WITCHES. The familiar spirit means VILE or VIOL and will go back into hell about now.

Even in Ezekiel, the only PROPHETESSES with the power to MAKE SOULS FLY were SUPPOSED to be female: whats up?
  • <font color=blue>And when they shall say unto you, Seek (worship or inquire from) unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards (conjurers) that peep (chirp like a bird), and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? Isaiah 8:19</font>

    <font color=red>To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Isaiah 8:20 </font>

    <font color=blue>Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: Is.29:13</font>
If you get your lipstick on STRAIGHT, I will tell you the connection betwee CAPPELLA or CAPELLA and the FEMALE GOAT. Remember, "tragedy" well that is the FEMALE goat song which in the Greek world HAD to be performed by MALES of whom Plato warned of GENDER BLEED.
I was taking a big drink of coffee when I began reading this post. I laughed so hard, I spewed it all over my computer and shorted it out. It's ruined. You should buy me a new one!

Keep it up Brother Ken. This is your best work yet!
And I quote:

"First, to be A capella, you have to be a virgin and celibate: that means no erotic having sex in the holy places."

"Next, we have to CASTRATE you."

Classic. I used to think you made this stuff up. Now I really do believe you find this SOMEWHERE. No one could make this stuff up. Goat singers... it's great!

P.S.- I'm glad the moderators let you post a picture of a goat with a giant erection. There's no way I would have gotten away with that. It's disgusting and uncalled for, and has nothing to do with this site, this thread, or Christianity at all. Really.
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Concerned Christian
Concerned Christian

February 27th, 2006, 8:53 pm #34

…I don’t need for Concerned Christian to provide any statistical evidence to back his claim that the church of Christ is shrinking, that people are leaving it for the denominations or other “faiths” that have become sucked into the heresies of the Change Movement. I take CC’s word completely. I wouldn’t be surprised if, one day in the near future, CC posted a message that said in effect, “All who ever belonged to the church of Christ, including yours truly, have finally left it for greener pastures, leaving David Rhoades, Ken Sublett, Donnie Cruz, PPB, Jimmy Wren, and Dr. Bill Crump as the sole remnants of that faith on this earth.”

Would this mean that we in the church of Christ had been wrong all along in completely trusting and obeying what was written in the New Testament, adding nothing to it, taking nothing from it?

Would this mean that we had been wrong to stay on the narrow path by keeping our worship simple, holy, and without raucous pop music and worldly entertainment to draw pleasure-seeking crowds?

Would this mean that we had been wrong not to have altered and rewritten the doctrines of the new Testament to keep pace with the mindset of a perverse, godless, culture-oriented society?

Would this mean that the Change Movement will have utterly defeated us, should our numbers dwindle to virtually nothing, while theirs soar to astronomical heights?

What would this mean?

This would mean that the prophecies and admonitions of Christ in the Gospels and in the apostolic writings were being fulfilled:
  • Broad and easy is the path to destruction; many will flock to it. Narrow and difficult is the path to salvation; few will ever find it (Matt. 7:13-14 KJV).
  • Though the Word of God be preached, eventually the time will come when people will turn away from the Truth and sound doctrine of the New Testament. Caving in to their own lusts and preferences, they will embrace the alien theologies of other “teachers,” who, with pleasant speech, will convince the undiscerning to spurn the Truth (Romans 16:17-18; 2 Tim. 4:1-4 KJV).
  • False teachers shall come by stealth and lure many to embrace “damnable heresies” and shall speak evil of the Truth (2 Peter 2:1-3 KJV).
According to the New Testament, the closer to the end of time we come, the number of apostates will climb, while the numbers of the faithful will dwindle. Yes, CC, if the truly faithful members of the church of Christ are truly falling, and since the numbers who embrace the heretical Change Movement are definitely climbing with each new day, all is taking place right on schedule.
Here are your Stats:

Source: Churches of Christ in the United States 2006 edition

2003 13,155 Congregations
2006 12,963 Congregations

2003 1,276,621 Members;
2006 1,265,844 Members

Dropping in #. Sorry Bill

And just think some of these members are of the "Fruity Loop"

Of course this source is listing the One Cuppers, Non-Class, Mutual Edification, and Non Institutional Churches, which you probably do not agree with.
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Amazed
Amazed

February 27th, 2006, 9:17 pm #35

First, to be A capella, you have to be a virgin and celibate: that means no erotic having sex in the holy places. That is what they say about ALL priestly roles. Did I tell you that the musical PRECENTER was the "first heresy largely pervading the church." The next was SINGING as an ACT of worship was added as late as 373. So, what you are doing is religionism but not REMOTELY connected to what Jesus founded for the "tiny minority." Jesus WILL NOT be in the MULTITUDES other than to lead you captive.

Next, we have to CASTRATE you. [If the testesterone test proves positive] That is the meaning of a capella. The word derives from one meaning of the Greek CANTUS <font color=blue>the production of melodious sound, a musical utterance or expression, either with voice or instrument</font> if you are a GOAT SINGER then you may not be permitted to know that MELODY is not HARMONY. Harmony often meant MOVING TOGETHER as the musicators MADE MELODY where PSALLO is always connected to homosexual performances. It includes

<font color=blue>2. With instruments, a playing, music: in nervorum vocumque cantibus: citharae, horribili stridebat tibia cantu, Querulae tibiae, Of an actor: cantus remissiores facere, </font>

LOTS of people DON'T see you thinglings as CUTE as you see yourselves. All history knows that HARMONY generates off key overtones which HURT. Horribili stridebat tibia cantu is what God OUTLAWED for the synagogue or church in the wilderness when the people assembled ONLY for teaching the Word.

Now the SECT of the Hypocrites were one of the groups denounced by Jesus. All musical PERFORMERS--especially moving together--are ACTORS where performance. is two or three REMOVES from the FACTS.

The word Queruus complaints, complaining, querulous
  • <font color=blue>Softly complaining, uttering a plaintive sound, murmuring, cooing, warbling, chirping, querulae cicadae, capella,

    Capella is a SHE GOAT although PAN the BEAST was bisexual
    </font>
I hate to show this to sensitive eyes but about HALF of the "audience" see this going on in the Holy Place you have invaded so don't blame ME for what the PERFORMING musicators actually signal with ORGANIC ORGANS or MECHANICAL organs:
Cicadae are the Locusts or Muses of Apollo. Satan unleased them as a MARK of the end time whore.
  • <font color=blue>Horribilis terrible, fearful, dreadful, horrible

    Spectacuum (contr. specta-clum a show, sight, spectacle (class.).
    </font>
Don't you guys do a SPECTACLE OF WORSHIP?

All SINGING in order to AROUSE the "moving together" or even simple harmony is claimed to MOVE the worshipers into the presence of God. Therefore, YOU are a witch and by count there should be ONLY ONE warlock to every ten thousand WITCHES. The familiar spirit means VILE or VIOL and will go back into hell about now.

Even in Ezekiel, the only PROPHETESSES with the power to MAKE SOULS FLY were SUPPOSED to be female: whats up?
  • <font color=blue>And when they shall say unto you, Seek (worship or inquire from) unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards (conjurers) that peep (chirp like a bird), and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? Isaiah 8:19</font>

    <font color=red>To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Isaiah 8:20 </font>

    <font color=blue>Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: Is.29:13</font>
If you get your lipstick on STRAIGHT, I will tell you the connection betwee CAPPELLA or CAPELLA and the FEMALE GOAT. Remember, "tragedy" well that is the FEMALE goat song which in the Greek world HAD to be performed by MALES of whom Plato warned of GENDER BLEED.
Ken, it just struck me what you wrote just above this ungodly picture:

"I hate to show this to sensitive eyes but about HALF of the "audience" see this going on in the Holy Place you have invaded so don't blame ME for what the PERFORMING musicators actually signal with ORGANIC ORGANS or MECHANICAL organs"

Once again, another flat-out lie. Or lies to be exact.

Lie #1- "I hate to show this to sensetive eyes, but..."
You don't hate to show it or you wouldn't. You don't hate to show that kind of vulgarity, because that's all you do show OR talk about on this site. It's crude, and you love it.

Lie #2- "about HALF of the "audience" see this going on in the Holy Place..."
I know what you mean, and not anywhere close to half the people who think instruments are bad, and there's a change movement and all that see a guy with a goat head and a huge erection running after a girl. I've seen a lot of things at church, but seriously.

Lie #3- "you have invaded" I get the veiled reference to robbing and pillaging poor old
widows that you talk about so frequently. Ken, there is no invasion, take-over, OR conspiracy. Repeating something over and over STILL won't make it true. Keep on though.

Lie #4- don't blame ME for what the PERFORMING musicators actually signal with ORGANIC ORGANS or MECHANICAL organs"
I know your posts well enough to know who you mean by "performing musicators". I also know enough of the people who YOU place in that category to know that none of them are "actually signaling" goats with penises when they lead worship. I can't believe you even used the term "Organic organs or mechanical organs".

I had to respond again because I am so blown away that the moderators let this posting go on the site. It's incredibly offensive. Not to mention senseless.

Moderators, I challenge you to use a little more discretion and common sense. I've personally been censored for WAY less.
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Concerned Members
Concerned Members

February 27th, 2006, 9:29 pm #36

PPB: "You know, I started addressing each of [the detractors' questions] and realized, YOU KNOW THE ANSWERS and I'm wasting my time."

Dr. Crump: PPB, you’ve hit the nail on the head. The detractors who post on this site are well known for asking a series of questions, fully knowing what the answers are. Then they initiate a tangential discussion in an attempt to misdirect the train of thought. After a few weeks, they come back and ask the same questions again, perhaps in a different thread, and the cycle repeats. It’s their design to create confusion on this site, if we allow them to do so. David Rhoades directed our attention to this phenomenon as the “Fruity Loop.” One particular guy was really adept at doing this a year or so ago. He’d start with the question series, do the tangential thing, then come back later and pose the same questions again, but worded in a different manner so that it would appear as if he were asking “new” questions. His responses to our answers consisted primarily of taunts and jeers.

The music threads here are repetitious examples. We had the Boswell-Hardeman thread in the Sunday School in Exile forum, which pretty much covered everything about the pros and cons of instrumental music. That thread was finally closed to stop the incessant, repetitious discussions. Then the “Most Convincing” music thread popped up in SSE, and the whole mess started again. And wouldn’t ya know, a third music thread, “Instrumental Music,” broke out in the Madison forum, which just churned up the same old arguments even further! And now Concerned Christian, who worships in a c of C but whose heart loves the Change Movement, has been giving us his example of tangential lines in a music thread by repeatedly asking about “women covering their heads” and “wearing jewelry.” It's all been covered previously elsewhere. Anything to divert the discussion and hopefully make things confusing! How utterly desperate those detractors are!

Detractors come here, not to learn anything about the Bible or how to worship, but to promote the heresies of the Change Movement and to revile those of us who disagree with them. These detractors fit the description of those mentioned in Romans 16:17-18 (KJV) who cause “divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned…they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.”

It's time to put the detractors on the shelf.
Ouch that arrow hurt. I told you about shooting to the left and to the right. Remember Satan is out in front. He is spreading lies about God and how His Grace is not stronger than instrument issues etc. Please aim forward.

BTW Keep in mind Bill, I am not interested in reading your posts from 2 years ago I want to talk to you today. Stop asking me to go and read some post that has been dead for 2 years. I could care less what you and 9iron talked about.

You are right Bill, "it is time to put the detractors on the shelf." Down with Satan!

We are on the same team remember?

CC
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Concerned Christian
Concerned Christian

February 27th, 2006, 10:09 pm #37

Thank you Concerned Christian for that incredible comeback!!!!

Is this how your church is teaching you...through tracks? For shame! Are you unaware of the documents that exist from the first few centuries, both Christian and non-Christian that discuss the early church and their actions/inactions?

I thought a little history lesson might be needed about now, as I've seen some very erroneous statements made regarding "psallo" and musical instruments on this posting.

Let's start with some early Christian Elders - well before the time of the Catholic Church...

Justin Marytr c. 160, states in his response to a Roman, "Your (pagan) public assemblies I have come to hate. For there are excessive banquets and subtle flutes that provoke people to lustful movemements."

Irenaeus, c. 180 "Of such persons, too, the Spirit has spoken through Isaiah: "They drink wine with harps, tablets, psalteries and flutes. However, they do not regard the works of God."

Clement of Alexander, c 195 "If people occupy their time with pipes, psalateries, choirs, dances, Egyptian clapping of hands, and such disorderly frivolities, they become quite immodest...Let the pipe be resigned to shephards, and the flute to the superstitious ones who are engrossed in idolatry. For in truth, such instruments are to be banished from the temperate banquet...Man is truly a peaceful instrument. However, if you investigate, you will find other instruments to be warlike, inflaming to lusts, kindling up passion, or rousing wrath... We no longer employ the ancient psaltery, trumpet, timbrel and flute. For those expert in war and scorners of the fear of God were inclined to make use of these instruments in the choruses as their festive assemblies..." He goes on to state that if you play them, play them away from the assembly so as not to cause effeminancy and indecency, as instruments are for reveling and tawdry music.

Tertullian, Novation, Cyprian and others all discussed that instruments should not be in the assembly as they are temptations presented by Satan and designed to weaken Christians. Remember, the scriptures tell us that worship is to be orderly and serious!

Pliny, a roman official who hated the Christians, discussed how they met and sang hymns. He was disgusted with the simplicity of their meetings and how different it was from the pagan religions. The Christian's meetings were known for being very quiet, with only their voices heard to sing. Everything was done with order and seriousness.

Mark Minucius Felix c. 200 - discusses how the assembly and our lives should be done in quietness.

Later church leaders and elders:

Erasmus: "We have brought into our churches certain operatic and theatrical music; such a confused, disorderly chattering of some words as I hardly think was ever in any of the Grecian or Roman theatres. The church rings with the noise of trumpets, pipes, and dulcimers; and human voices strive to bear their part with them. Men run to church as to a theatre, to have their ears tickled. And for this end organ makers are hired with great salaries, and a company of boys, who waste all their time learning these whining tones."

Eusebius: "Of old at the time those of the circumcision were worshipping with symbols and types it was not inappropriate to send up hymns to God with the psalterion and cithara and to do this on Sabbath days... We render our hymn with a living psalterion and a living cithara with spiritual songs. The unison voices of Christians would be more acceptable to God than any musical instrument. Accordingly in all the churches of God, united in soul and attitude, with one mind and in agreement of faith and piety we send up a unison melody in the words of the Psalms."

Aquinas: "Our church does not use musical instruments, as harps and psalteries, to praise God withal, that she may not seem to Judaize." (Thomas Aquinas, Bingham's Antiquities, Vol. 3)

Augustine: "musical instruments were not used. The pipe, tabret, and harp here associate so intimately with the sensual heathen cults, as well as with the wild revelries and shameless performances of the degenerate theater and circus, it is easy to understand the prejudices against their use in the worship." (Augustine 354 A.D., describing the singing at Alexandria under Athanasius)

Chrysostom: "David formerly sang songs, also today we sing hymns. He had a lyre with lifeless strings, the church has a lyre with living strings. Our tongues are the strings of the lyre with a different tone indeed but much more in accordance with piety. Here there is no need for the cithara, or for stretched strings, or for the plectrum, or for art, or for any instrument; but, if you like, you may yourself become a cithara, mortifying the members of the flesh and making a full harmony of mind and body. For when the flesh no longer lusts against the Spirit, but has submitted to its orders and has been led at length into the best and most admirable path, then will you create a spiritual melody." (Chrysostom, 347-407, Exposition of Psalms 41, (381-398 A.D.) Source Readings in Music History, ed. O. Strunk, W. W. Norton and Co.: New York, 1950, pg. 70.)

In fact, around the same time that the Apostles were helping start the Church, the Jewish religion was undergoing a debate about continuing the use of musical instruments. Philo of Alexandria, Hellenistic–Judaic philosopher, who wrote in the early years of the Christian era, stated that he was opposed to any kind of music in worship and wanted it stopped.

Historians also agree, and the amount of evidence is overwhelming...

There can be no doubt that originally the music of the divine service was every where entirely of a vocal nature. (Emil Nauman, The History of Music, Vol. 1, p. 177)

We have no real knowledge of the exact character of the music which formed a part of the religious devotion of the first Christian congregations. It was, however, purely vocal. Instrumental music was excluded, at first, as having been used by the Romans at their depraved festivities; and everything reminding them of heathen worship could not be endured by the new religionists. (Frederic Louis Ritter, History of Music from the Christian Era to the Present Time, p. 28)

The general introduction of instrumental music can certainly not be assigned to a date earlier than the 5th and 6th centuries; yea, even Gregory the Great, who towards the end of the 6th century added greatly to the existing church music, absolutely prohibited the use of instruments. Several centuries later the introduction of the organ in sacred service gave the place to instruments as accompaniments for Christian song, and from that time to this they have been freely used with few exceptions. The first organ is believed to have been used in the Church service in the 13th century. (McClintock and Strong, Cyclopaedia of Biblical Literature, Vol 6, p. 759)

*********************************

So, I ask you again. Why didn't the first Christians use musical instruments?
Good info. Read it a million times. Please reference what churches are having Sex on stage and Orgies in worship due to these dreaded instruments.

Once again these men were arguing there opinions. They were not basing it on anything out of Paul's Text. I still do not agree with you and will never go back to shackling myself to such things that are not a COMMAND.

"Mark Minucius Felix c. 200 - discusses how the assembly and our lives should be done in quietness."

If you are going to add this to your new scriptures then you must follow it it to a "T"

Let's get together and be quiet, I could interpret these "new scriptures" as silence...no talking!!!

Remember the early Christians left the Synagogues and Temple and were in hiding. I would be quiet too. I would not start banging on some drum or cymbal...I would be quiet! My life would depend on it.
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

February 27th, 2006, 10:55 pm #38

Growing up in the church of Christ, I never really questioned anything. But as an adult, I found that I have a mind to think and can voice my opinion.

It seems to me that the argument against instrumental music mainly comes from the doctrine referred as "the Law of Silence" Where the bible is silent, we also should be silent. However, what I have seen is that people of this belief regarding instrumental music are far but silent on the subject.

Please use the law of silence to tell me what is wrong with this conclusion:


First off, I am sure no one on this board will dispute that instruments were use in the Old Testament. The Psalms are full of accounts where David (God's favorite) talks of the use of instruments.

In Revelations, there are accounts from John of instruments in Heaven..

Revelations 5:8 the 24 elders had harps

Revelations 14:2 The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps

Revelations 15 2-3 They held harps given them by God and sang the song of Moses the servant of God and the song of the Lamb.

Now lets go to

Malachi 3:6 "I the LORD do not change.

James 1:17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows

and finally the Lord's prayer:

Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come,
Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven

If instruments were used in the Old Testament and in Heaven, and God does not change. And Jesus said, thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. If the angels had harps, given to them by God, wouldn't this be his will?


Then what is the Big Argument all about????


Amazed continued: We showed you what the SPIRITUAL EYE sees when the thinglings MOUNT the podium. Here is some of the background so maybe you, too, will want to flee Babylon or be MARKED by the BEAST who is also known as Eve or Zoe the female instructing principle. Paul knew more about Eve than we do if we have been sung into illiteracy: trust him.

<font color=purple>"The term 'ca-na-na-um' was used by the inhabitants as early as 3500 BC (Aubet). The Hebrew "cana'ani" meant merchant, but the original meaning may have come from Akkadian kinahhu - red-colored wool, which may have in turn given their descendents the name Phoenician.</font>
  • <font color=blue>Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts. Zec.14:21</font>
How we gonna solve that problem since the invasion of the BODY SNATCHERS? Well, Revelation 18 defines the RETURN of the forskin collecort MOTHER. In 18:22 we see that woe promounced on rhetorical speakers, singers and musicians understanding that the WHEEL speaks a "musical sound" and that concubines or prostitutes were the GRINDERS, they too will have to quit bumping and grinding in the SCHOOL ROOM. Jesus solves the problem: when the HAREM OF THE GODS or the SECTARIAN singers or musicians COME IN then in verse 19 Jesus removes His LAMPSTAND or LAMPS of the seven SPIRITS which are not wee little "forest spirits" but forms of Divine knowledge you NEED In the school house.

You may have missed Jesus affirming that the CLERGY were of the SEED of Abraham but we know that they were NOT of Isaac. Therefore, the RELIGIOUS FUNCTIONARIES have always ben ARABS. Arab means AMBUSH.
  • <font color=blue>Kenaaniy (h3669) ken-ah-an-ee'; patrial from 3667; a Kenaanite or inhabitant of Kenaan; by impl. a pedlar (the Canaanites standing for their neighbors the Ishmaelites, who conducted mercantile caravans): - Canaanite, merchant, trafficker.

    Kenaan (g3667) ken-ah'-an; from 3665; humiliated; Kenaan, a son of Ham; also the country inhabited by him: - Canaan, merchant, traffick.

    Kana (h3665) kaw-nah'; a prim. root; prop. to bend the knee; hence to humiliate, vanquish: - bring down (low), into subjection, under, humble (self), subdue. </font>
<font color=purple>Central to the Semitic notion of deity is El, the old fatherly creator god and his consort, Athirat or Asherah. "Both were primordial beings, they had been there always." El, whose name simply meant 'god' was the creator and procreator, overseer of conception, who sired the gods, thus being also called 'Bull El' in continuity with the ancient bull god of fertility. Asherah and El thus form a creation hieros-gamos of male and female, representing the bull and the earth goddess we see emerging from the ancient continuum at Catal Huyuk. El is supposed to have gone out to sea and asked two Goddesses, one presumably being Athirat and the other possibly Anath to choose between being his spouses and being his daughters.
  • They chose the former. Their offspring are Shaher and Shalem, the morning and evening stars, from which Lucifer, the light-bearer, takes his name.
</font> Lucifer, of course, in later incarnations is Sophia-Zoe.

<font color=purple>In the Canaanite myth, a new and possibly Akkadian outsider, whose name is Ba'al Haddad or Lord enters the situation in hated competition with Asherah and her children by El. He is a young, warlike god of wind and thunderstorms and thus fertility itself. Unlike El, he is not judicious, frequently figuring in situations from which he must be saved. In this respect he displays a significant parallel to Dumuzi (Tammuz) among the Mesopotamians, which will prove to be of significance. He also has the hideous attribute of devouring his own children, consistent with infanticide practices of several semitic patron gods. See Tammuz worship by the women at Jerusalem

Initially Ba'al and Anat are members of El's court. Ba'al attacks El by surprise and castrates him, assuming the power of his fertility. In effect, Ba'al becomes the central iINTERMEDIARY of paternal cosmic order ... "it is Ba'al's responsibility to ensure El's benevolent intention is realized", but he does not replace the primal creative power of El. </font>

Now, they pronounce Jesus Christ incompetent to preserve His Word and we "gonna partner with God to get a new supply." They also promise to lead you into the presence of God which means that they ARE standing in the Most Holy Place claiming to BE God.

<font color=purple>"Anath was fertilized by the blood of men, rather than semen, because her worship dated all the way back to the neolithic, when fatherhood was unknown and blood was considered the only substance which could transmit life.
  • Hecatombs of [100] men seem to have been sacrificed to Anath when her image was reddened with rouge and henna for the occasion. Like the Lady of the Serpent Skirt,

    Anath hung the shorn penises of her victims on her goatskin apron or aegis." "Anath's capacity to curse and kill made even the Heavenly Father afraid of her. When El seemed reluctant to do her bidding, she threatened to smash his head and cover his grey hair and beard with gore. He hastily gave her everything she asked, saying 'Whoever hinders thee will be crushed' " (Walker 30).
</font>If you do the ANTIPHONAL response as a kind of "battle of singing parts" then you are singing in the style of ANAH. That was the STYLE of musical MOCKING by which the CANAANITES or KENITES whol always controlled the Temple (a like the nation's Mega-church where God knew they wanted to WORSHIP like the nations).

In the Babylonian Tablets this is Inanna who got Ea--the patron of music--and stole the ME which gave her the power of the Eldership, making music and sexual perversion.

http://www.piney.com/BabEaGifts.html

Mark the spot: you are there.

<font color=purple>"The papacy also continued the practice of creating castratos (a cappella worship Leaders who were boys castrated before puberty to keep their singing voices high-pitched) for their own entertainment, long after it had fallen in disfavor throughout Italy."

"Into this artificial world came the castrati, who had first gained a place in Italian churches for their 'angelic' voices.
  • Castratos are said to have been the world's first superstars, because of the great sums paid to them for their singing, and scheduled engagements that took them to cities across Europe, to please their enthusiastic followers.
"How can we hear their music today, since we have no more castratos to listen to? Well, during the current renaissance in Baroque music, some castrato roles have been carefully recreated by counter-tenors also known as male altos or sopranos. Other musical parts are sung by women who use a natural alto or soprano range,
  • but adopt a style which attempts to make the music sound
    appropriately 'masculine',at least for male roles.
There is much debate as to which is better--but keeping in mind the fact that most early composers wrote 'trouser' roles for women to sing, and that castratos frequently presented women's roles, especially in their youth, it would seem that gender stretching is an original part of this music, and perhaps one reason for its continuing dramatic impact."</font>

When you HEAR this taking place in the ekklesia or school of Christ and His Word, you know that some FEMALE "Goddess" is behind the scene wearing a skirt of shorn penesis.
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PPB
PPB

February 27th, 2006, 11:20 pm #39

Here are your Stats:

Source: Churches of Christ in the United States 2006 edition

2003 13,155 Congregations
2006 12,963 Congregations

2003 1,276,621 Members;
2006 1,265,844 Members

Dropping in #. Sorry Bill

And just think some of these members are of the "Fruity Loop"

Of course this source is listing the One Cuppers, Non-Class, Mutual Edification, and Non Institutional Churches, which you probably do not agree with.
CC and Jack,

Go back and read your postings. Note that everything you write is about what YOU want and how You feel and has NOTHING to do with the scriptures. Isn't that interesting?

If we were to follow your command, we would no longer even need the Bible. You have made it a useless book, a reminder of days gone by. YOU are what the Apostles and Jesus warned us about. You fit all the criteria for a "false teacher".

You don't have any idea of God's love or what it takes to be a Christian, because you have distanced yourself from the Word. You go on and on about "love", but love includes your behavior and following God's commands. You are like a rebellious child, thinking you know more than the parent.

Take CC's comments on the early Church elders "opinions". Is that not the biggest cop-out! By the way CC, those comments were in regards to scriptures and what the Apostles had taught at their church. Yes, they had the same scriptures and even referred to them in these "opinion" pieces, though they were known as letters and memoires instead of Books.

And Jack's comments are about as unChristian as you can get without actually cursing. And that's the love your churches are teaching? The love of ignorance and ridicule?

You are so determined to stick your head in the sand and play "dumb", that you don't even make sense anymore.

You've been made aware. Your actions are no longer on my conscience. Good luck...you will need it.
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

February 27th, 2006, 11:54 pm #40

Here are your Stats:

Source: Churches of Christ in the United States 2006 edition

2003 13,155 Congregations
2006 12,963 Congregations

2003 1,276,621 Members;
2006 1,265,844 Members

Dropping in #. Sorry Bill

And just think some of these members are of the "Fruity Loop"

Of course this source is listing the One Cuppers, Non-Class, Mutual Edification, and Non Institutional Churches, which you probably do not agree with.
You need the OLD STATS: We once had about 2.25 MILLION members. But, that was a bad count. When we moved back to Murfreesboro in 1980 we began working the membership list and removed those we were informed were DEAD when we made contact. If a person was baptized and then became a serial killer, when he is buried he claims to be a member of the church of Christ.

So what? My timetable based on what began about 1987 with the MUSICATING in the holy places would "prophesy" almost NO faithful church still VISIBLE and AUDIBLE about now. That MAY be the actual fact. As we have been able to inform people I can guarantee that lots of those with HELL SCARED INTO them for NOT tithing have fled.

1997 13,000 Congregations
2003 13,155 Congregations
2006 12,963 Congregations
That means a loss of 37 congregations--if you believe preacher's count.

That is about the number which have been INFILTRATED and DIVERTED by the Christian church pushing their UNITY MEETINGS using PLANTS to take the name off of the church. One of the posters can count about 20 of those in Texas which have gone instrumental.

If you believe the numbers--virtually impossible to get--then here are the numbers--if your numbers can be trusted.

1997 1,278,000 Members
2003 1,276,621 Members;
2006 1,265,844 Members
12156 That is less than 1% which is the way ALL institutions are going as the internet does a better job without CONFISCATING your children's health care. I don't know of one which CLOSED SHOP because of NOT doing music. Do you? Name it and we will check it out.

1997 was when I quit being counted and about the time that the Tulsa Workshop, the Unity Forums and Jubilee began OUTING the object of their mass meetings to sow MASSIVE DISCORD among peaceable churches of Christ. I would say that MOST churches signed onto the Shellyite etal heresy that the ROLE OF THE CHURCH IS TO WORSHIP. When even "conservative" churches adopted the Howard (vineyard) NEW STYLE PRAISE SINGING I watched lots of people quit attending. I am sure that the Shellyite LOCATED MISSIONARY kicked lots of honest preachers out of business and church planting stopped.

So, if I have a hundred lambs and YOU steal 10 of them I suppose you would justify your new POSTMODERN definition of lying and say that YOU stole them because I wasn't getting the most WORK PRODUCT out of them.
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