Instrumental Music

Concerned Christian
Concerned Christian

February 26th, 2006, 3:50 am #21

I'm just curious. Luey, Concerned Member, etc...

Why did the original Churches NOT use instruments? Why did they consider them wrong?

Before you try and go around those two questions, remember, there is VERIFIABLE and CONCRETE evidence that the early Christians did NOT use them and found them sinful. So don't try and twist it or go around it. I dare you to answer it honestly.

Can you? Can you explain why it was still wrong for generations after Christ died? Can you explain why churches, that had met and studied WITH the Apostles, were against instruments during their assembly?

Would you agree that the Apostles would have the most knowledge of how the assembly was to act? They were speaking for Christ and God, where they not?

Also, remember Paul was Jewish. Why did he not allow these first churches to use instruments if he had used them in his Jewish faith (which, some of you have inaccurate info about Judaism and instrumental music)?

And if you don't care what the first Churches did or did not do, why? Why would you dismiss the first Churches started by Christ? Why would you look down your "educated" noses at them? Do you think that you are better than them? Smarter? Closer to God?



PPB,

Thank you for the dare :-)Okayyyy...here goes.

First of all there is no evidence that the early church consider them "wrong" or sinful. This is a gross exaggeration made by fundamentalists that were breaking away from the Catholic religion in the 1800's (hence our traditional arguments).

The Church of Christ and it's "pioneers" have long argued that psalmos is "plucking" something other than a harp. Yet you read educated scholars and I do mean educated including Church of Christ Scholars (not all) and they agree that this is indicating the Psalms (yes the Dreaded Old Testament reference again). In fact the "Melody in the hearts" is something that historians argue they were to be silent and sing only to themselves. That is ridiculous as saying that the early church considered Instruments wrong. Every little thing (function) was not recorded...perhaps this Christian Walk is not to be too tricky?

I worship in an acapella church, however I have given up this concern or argument a long time ago and many C of C'ers have as well. It is fine if you do not like it it is just a fact. I do not teach Bible classes or preach sermons about the usage of instruments. However when someone challenges why we do not I can only simply say, "it is the choice of our Tradition".

Please educate yourself in something other than the C of C hermeneutic and look outside the box and see the freedom in Christ rather than the bondage that so easily entangles you.

Please give YOUR "verifiable" evidence before you come back with a tract from your foyer.
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

February 26th, 2006, 5:43 am #22

Concerned Christian says he worships at an a cappella church, yet he has continuously lobbied FOR instrumental music, saying that the only reason he can cite for not using them is, "It is the choice of our Tradition." This is to imply that "tradition" precludes the church of Christ from using them. Funny, after reading the Boswell-Hardeman debate (and I mean the ENTIRE transcript of more than 200 pages), I got the distinct impression that Hardeman and the c of C based their rejection of instruments purely on biblical grounds. Tradition had nothing to do with it. And I also got the impression that Boswell and the denominations favored instruments based more on the scholarship of the world than what the NT said about vocal music or what the NT didn't say about instruments. But I guess folks just can't get the full impact of the debate from a short summary of it in a thread in Sunday School in Exile. They really need to READ it for themselves. BTW, further comments about that debate should ONLY be made by those who have also read it. I trust that CC has also read it, to be fully informed.

If CC really wants instruments in worship, I suggest he just go to a denomination that has them. No sense of pushing them onto any c of C which doesn't want them. No sense of his constantly worshiping in mental turmoil in an a cappella church, when it is apparent that he would rather be worshiping with instruments.
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Concerned Christian
Concerned Christian

February 26th, 2006, 8:13 pm #23

Bill,

I have said it over and over again...so here goes. The Church of Christ is changing...I am not going anywhere. I enjoy leading singing and singing acapella. However, I will not Lobby for arguments that are ludicrous and made up. The Thousands of people I worship with no longer are "hung up" on the issue either. Your # is dwindling. It is flat out a preference that we worship acapella or not. I have read the Boswell-Hardeman debates for years. It is once a gain an argument that is quickly sinking...taking on water if you will.

As I have said to Donnie and now I will say it to you. I will stay right in the Church of Christ and enjoy acapella singing, however I will not condemn a soul to hell for the use of instruments in their worship to do so is playing God and I refuse to sit on that seat.

If Heaven is determined by what one does for an Hour or two on Sunday then it is sad glimpse of attaining Heaven (sounds like Works or working one's way into Heaven.) I see Heaven as very attainable, a road not filled with Land Mines of assumptions about what was done 2,000 years ago.

To assume that Paul was a hater of music when in fact it was part of their Worship rituals with the Old Covenant is outrageous. Hummmm...Maybe he was trying to preach grace and how to grow the church rather than fill it with "I wonder if" theology. We have unfortunately developed a Checklist of what must have been said and PPB coming in and stating that it was NEVER used and WRONG is an outright fallacy. It is just regurgitated from what she has always been told...I know because I used to be tough on this crime of instrument usage as well.

So sad...by the way you can take this anyway you want, but there are more things to be concerned with than instruments...like fighting Satan! Please aim your arrows at him rather than turning to the right and left and shooting them at others and me that are fighting Satan as well.

Thanks.
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

February 26th, 2006, 9:50 pm #24

First, to be A capella, you have to be a virgin and celibate: that means no erotic having sex in the holy places. That is what they say about ALL priestly roles. Did I tell you that the musical PRECENTER was the "first heresy largely pervading the church." The next was SINGING as an ACT of worship was added as late as 373. So, what you are doing is religionism but not REMOTELY connected to what Jesus founded for the "tiny minority." Jesus WILL NOT be in the MULTITUDES other than to lead you captive.

Next, we have to CASTRATE you. [If the testesterone test proves positive] That is the meaning of a capella. The word derives from one meaning of the Greek CANTUS <font color=blue>the production of melodious sound, a musical utterance or expression, either with voice or instrument</font> if you are a GOAT SINGER then you may not be permitted to know that MELODY is not HARMONY. Harmony often meant MOVING TOGETHER as the musicators MADE MELODY where PSALLO is always connected to homosexual performances. It includes

<font color=blue>2. With instruments, a playing, music: in nervorum vocumque cantibus: citharae, horribili stridebat tibia cantu, Querulae tibiae, Of an actor: cantus remissiores facere, </font>

LOTS of people DON'T see you thinglings as CUTE as you see yourselves. All history knows that HARMONY generates off key overtones which HURT. Horribili stridebat tibia cantu is what God OUTLAWED for the synagogue or church in the wilderness when the people assembled ONLY for teaching the Word.

Now the SECT of the Hypocrites were one of the groups denounced by Jesus. All musical PERFORMERS--especially moving together--are ACTORS where performance. is two or three REMOVES from the FACTS.

The word Queruus complaints, complaining, querulous
  • <font color=blue>Softly complaining, uttering a plaintive sound, murmuring, cooing, warbling, chirping, querulae cicadae, capella,

    Capella is a SHE GOAT although PAN the BEAST was bisexual
    </font>
I hate to show this to sensitive eyes but about HALF of the "audience" see this going on in the Holy Place you have invaded so don't blame ME for what the PERFORMING musicators actually signal with ORGANIC ORGANS or MECHANICAL organs:
Cicadae are the Locusts or Muses of Apollo. Satan unleased them as a MARK of the end time whore.
  • <font color=blue>Horribilis terrible, fearful, dreadful, horrible

    Spectacuum (contr. specta-clum a show, sight, spectacle (class.).
    </font>
Don't you guys do a SPECTACLE OF WORSHIP?

All SINGING in order to AROUSE the "moving together" or even simple harmony is claimed to MOVE the worshipers into the presence of God. Therefore, YOU are a witch and by count there should be ONLY ONE warlock to every ten thousand WITCHES. The familiar spirit means VILE or VIOL and will go back into hell about now.

Even in Ezekiel, the only PROPHETESSES with the power to MAKE SOULS FLY were SUPPOSED to be female: whats up?
  • <font color=blue>And when they shall say unto you, Seek (worship or inquire from) unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards (conjurers) that peep (chirp like a bird), and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead? Isaiah 8:19</font>

    <font color=red>To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Isaiah 8:20 </font>

    <font color=blue>Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: Is.29:13</font>
If you get your lipstick on STRAIGHT, I will tell you the connection betwee CAPPELLA or CAPELLA and the FEMALE GOAT. Remember, "tragedy" well that is the FEMALE goat song which in the Greek world HAD to be performed by MALES of whom Plato warned of GENDER BLEED.
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

February 26th, 2006, 10:08 pm #25

Bill,

I have said it over and over again...so here goes. The Church of Christ is changing...I am not going anywhere. I enjoy leading singing and singing acapella. However, I will not Lobby for arguments that are ludicrous and made up. The Thousands of people I worship with no longer are "hung up" on the issue either. Your # is dwindling. It is flat out a preference that we worship acapella or not. I have read the Boswell-Hardeman debates for years. It is once a gain an argument that is quickly sinking...taking on water if you will.

As I have said to Donnie and now I will say it to you. I will stay right in the Church of Christ and enjoy acapella singing, however I will not condemn a soul to hell for the use of instruments in their worship to do so is playing God and I refuse to sit on that seat.

If Heaven is determined by what one does for an Hour or two on Sunday then it is sad glimpse of attaining Heaven (sounds like Works or working one's way into Heaven.) I see Heaven as very attainable, a road not filled with Land Mines of assumptions about what was done 2,000 years ago.

To assume that Paul was a hater of music when in fact it was part of their Worship rituals with the Old Covenant is outrageous. Hummmm...Maybe he was trying to preach grace and how to grow the church rather than fill it with "I wonder if" theology. We have unfortunately developed a Checklist of what must have been said and PPB coming in and stating that it was NEVER used and WRONG is an outright fallacy. It is just regurgitated from what she has always been told...I know because I used to be tough on this crime of instrument usage as well.

So sad...by the way you can take this anyway you want, but there are more things to be concerned with than instruments...like fighting Satan! Please aim your arrows at him rather than turning to the right and left and shooting them at others and me that are fighting Satan as well.

Thanks.
If CC has decided to stay and worship in the church of Christ, then he doesn't try to push instruments on his congregation. He should neither advocate them nor try to push them on church of Christ-oriented web sites like this one. If he can only justify their absence in his church by "tradition," then the Bible degree that he obtained has not served him well in that regard. He hasn't a leg to stand on to discuss the subject further, for he will not accept what the NT says about vocal music. He only argues from personal opinion, not from biblical fact. But discerning church of Christ members who don't even hold a Bible degree know better.

I don't recall ever condemning anyone to hell on this web site or anywhere else because of their "preference" for instruments over the NT's specification to use vocal music. I have neither the authority nor the desire to do so.

CC has claimed on several occasions that the traditional c of C is dwindling. If this is not merely his wishful thinking, I now ask CC to provide statistical evidence with reliable references to this claim. I will not accept references one or two local congregations that may be losing a few members. I want references to statistical reports that have studied several thousand churches of Christ across the USA that provide undeniable evidence of such shrinkage.

But even if the c of C is shrinking, it only proves that folks are jumping the ship of Truth and going to churches that provide more popular entertainment. Why else would they leave a faith that follows the NT to the letter for a faith that provides them with entertainment?
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

February 27th, 2006, 2:21 am #26

Growing up in the church of Christ, I never really questioned anything. But as an adult, I found that I have a mind to think and can voice my opinion.

It seems to me that the argument against instrumental music mainly comes from the doctrine referred as "the Law of Silence" Where the bible is silent, we also should be silent. However, what I have seen is that people of this belief regarding instrumental music are far but silent on the subject.

Please use the law of silence to tell me what is wrong with this conclusion:


First off, I am sure no one on this board will dispute that instruments were use in the Old Testament. The Psalms are full of accounts where David (God's favorite) talks of the use of instruments.

In Revelations, there are accounts from John of instruments in Heaven..

Revelations 5:8 the 24 elders had harps

Revelations 14:2 The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps

Revelations 15 2-3 They held harps given them by God and sang the song of Moses the servant of God and the song of the Lamb.

Now lets go to

Malachi 3:6 "I the LORD do not change.

James 1:17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows

and finally the Lord's prayer:

Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come,
Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven

If instruments were used in the Old Testament and in Heaven, and God does not change. And Jesus said, thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. If the angels had harps, given to them by God, wouldn't this be his will?


Then what is the Big Argument all about????


…I don’t need for Concerned Christian to provide any statistical evidence to back his claim that the church of Christ is shrinking, that people are leaving it for the denominations or other “faiths” that have become sucked into the heresies of the Change Movement. I take CC’s word completely. I wouldn’t be surprised if, one day in the near future, CC posted a message that said in effect, “All who ever belonged to the church of Christ, including yours truly, have finally left it for greener pastures, leaving David Rhoades, Ken Sublett, Donnie Cruz, PPB, Jimmy Wren, and Dr. Bill Crump as the sole remnants of that faith on this earth.”

Would this mean that we in the church of Christ had been wrong all along in completely trusting and obeying what was written in the New Testament, adding nothing to it, taking nothing from it?

Would this mean that we had been wrong to stay on the narrow path by keeping our worship simple, holy, and without raucous pop music and worldly entertainment to draw pleasure-seeking crowds?

Would this mean that we had been wrong not to have altered and rewritten the doctrines of the new Testament to keep pace with the mindset of a perverse, godless, culture-oriented society?

Would this mean that the Change Movement will have utterly defeated us, should our numbers dwindle to virtually nothing, while theirs soar to astronomical heights?

What would this mean?

This would mean that the prophecies and admonitions of Christ in the Gospels and in the apostolic writings were being fulfilled:
  • Broad and easy is the path to destruction; many will flock to it. Narrow and difficult is the path to salvation; few will ever find it (Matt. 7:13-14 KJV).
  • Though the Word of God be preached, eventually the time will come when people will turn away from the Truth and sound doctrine of the New Testament. Caving in to their own lusts and preferences, they will embrace the alien theologies of other “teachers,” who, with pleasant speech, will convince the undiscerning to spurn the Truth (Romans 16:17-18; 2 Tim. 4:1-4 KJV).
  • False teachers shall come by stealth and lure many to embrace “damnable heresies” and shall speak evil of the Truth (2 Peter 2:1-3 KJV).
According to the New Testament, the closer to the end of time we come, the number of apostates will climb, while the numbers of the faithful will dwindle. Yes, CC, if the truly faithful members of the church of Christ are truly falling, and since the numbers who embrace the heretical Change Movement are definitely climbing with each new day, all is taking place right on schedule.

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Concerned Christian
Concerned Christian

February 27th, 2006, 3:07 am #27

If CC has decided to stay and worship in the church of Christ, then he doesn't try to push instruments on his congregation. He should neither advocate them nor try to push them on church of Christ-oriented web sites like this one. If he can only justify their absence in his church by "tradition," then the Bible degree that he obtained has not served him well in that regard. He hasn't a leg to stand on to discuss the subject further, for he will not accept what the NT says about vocal music. He only argues from personal opinion, not from biblical fact. But discerning church of Christ members who don't even hold a Bible degree know better.

I don't recall ever condemning anyone to hell on this web site or anywhere else because of their "preference" for instruments over the NT's specification to use vocal music. I have neither the authority nor the desire to do so.

CC has claimed on several occasions that the traditional c of C is dwindling. If this is not merely his wishful thinking, I now ask CC to provide statistical evidence with reliable references to this claim. I will not accept references one or two local congregations that may be losing a few members. I want references to statistical reports that have studied several thousand churches of Christ across the USA that provide undeniable evidence of such shrinkage.

But even if the c of C is shrinking, it only proves that folks are jumping the ship of Truth and going to churches that provide more popular entertainment. Why else would they leave a faith that follows the NT to the letter for a faith that provides them with entertainment?
Bill,

So you are saying that the Sunday Worship dictates one's destiny??? WOW!

Getting an education from the PHDuhs as your site refers to is far more enlightenigng than the tracts that we grew up reading and defending.
I am cracking up right now. Splits are everywhere. The c of C's are not bringing people in like you imagine. Look at the C of C guide and it continues to get thicker because of splits and arguments.

I am not going to bring you statistics I have not the time nor the enegry, however you can go on about the c of C following it to a "Letter" and I would bet $$$ that your Wife does not cover her Head??? If she does then you are on the path to following it to the "Letter." Do you greet with a Holy Kiss at the door? Do you cover your head? Have you shaved your wife's head? Does she were jewelry at church functions? Does she remain silent?

If you are not follwing these things to the "letter" then you condemn yourself by your own words.

I know I know the "Fruity Loops" are coming!
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PPB
PPB

February 27th, 2006, 8:13 am #28

PPB,

Thank you for the dare :-)Okayyyy...here goes.

First of all there is no evidence that the early church consider them "wrong" or sinful. This is a gross exaggeration made by fundamentalists that were breaking away from the Catholic religion in the 1800's (hence our traditional arguments).

The Church of Christ and it's "pioneers" have long argued that psalmos is "plucking" something other than a harp. Yet you read educated scholars and I do mean educated including Church of Christ Scholars (not all) and they agree that this is indicating the Psalms (yes the Dreaded Old Testament reference again). In fact the "Melody in the hearts" is something that historians argue they were to be silent and sing only to themselves. That is ridiculous as saying that the early church considered Instruments wrong. Every little thing (function) was not recorded...perhaps this Christian Walk is not to be too tricky?

I worship in an acapella church, however I have given up this concern or argument a long time ago and many C of C'ers have as well. It is fine if you do not like it it is just a fact. I do not teach Bible classes or preach sermons about the usage of instruments. However when someone challenges why we do not I can only simply say, "it is the choice of our Tradition".

Please educate yourself in something other than the C of C hermeneutic and look outside the box and see the freedom in Christ rather than the bondage that so easily entangles you.

Please give YOUR "verifiable" evidence before you come back with a tract from your foyer.
Thank you Concerned Christian for that incredible comeback!!!!

Is this how your church is teaching you...through tracks? For shame! Are you unaware of the documents that exist from the first few centuries, both Christian and non-Christian that discuss the early church and their actions/inactions?

I thought a little history lesson might be needed about now, as I've seen some very erroneous statements made regarding "psallo" and musical instruments on this posting.

Let's start with some early Christian Elders - well before the time of the Catholic Church...

Justin Marytr c. 160, states in his response to a Roman, "Your (pagan) public assemblies I have come to hate. For there are excessive banquets and subtle flutes that provoke people to lustful movemements."

Irenaeus, c. 180 "Of such persons, too, the Spirit has spoken through Isaiah: "They drink wine with harps, tablets, psalteries and flutes. However, they do not regard the works of God."

Clement of Alexander, c 195 "If people occupy their time with pipes, psalateries, choirs, dances, Egyptian clapping of hands, and such disorderly frivolities, they become quite immodest...Let the pipe be resigned to shephards, and the flute to the superstitious ones who are engrossed in idolatry. For in truth, such instruments are to be banished from the temperate banquet...Man is truly a peaceful instrument. However, if you investigate, you will find other instruments to be warlike, inflaming to lusts, kindling up passion, or rousing wrath... We no longer employ the ancient psaltery, trumpet, timbrel and flute. For those expert in war and scorners of the fear of God were inclined to make use of these instruments in the choruses as their festive assemblies..." He goes on to state that if you play them, play them away from the assembly so as not to cause effeminancy and indecency, as instruments are for reveling and tawdry music.

Tertullian, Novation, Cyprian and others all discussed that instruments should not be in the assembly as they are temptations presented by Satan and designed to weaken Christians. Remember, the scriptures tell us that worship is to be orderly and serious!

Pliny, a roman official who hated the Christians, discussed how they met and sang hymns. He was disgusted with the simplicity of their meetings and how different it was from the pagan religions. The Christian's meetings were known for being very quiet, with only their voices heard to sing. Everything was done with order and seriousness.

Mark Minucius Felix c. 200 - discusses how the assembly and our lives should be done in quietness.

Later church leaders and elders:

Erasmus: "We have brought into our churches certain operatic and theatrical music; such a confused, disorderly chattering of some words as I hardly think was ever in any of the Grecian or Roman theatres. The church rings with the noise of trumpets, pipes, and dulcimers; and human voices strive to bear their part with them. Men run to church as to a theatre, to have their ears tickled. And for this end organ makers are hired with great salaries, and a company of boys, who waste all their time learning these whining tones."

Eusebius: "Of old at the time those of the circumcision were worshipping with symbols and types it was not inappropriate to send up hymns to God with the psalterion and cithara and to do this on Sabbath days... We render our hymn with a living psalterion and a living cithara with spiritual songs. The unison voices of Christians would be more acceptable to God than any musical instrument. Accordingly in all the churches of God, united in soul and attitude, with one mind and in agreement of faith and piety we send up a unison melody in the words of the Psalms."

Aquinas: "Our church does not use musical instruments, as harps and psalteries, to praise God withal, that she may not seem to Judaize." (Thomas Aquinas, Bingham's Antiquities, Vol. 3)

Augustine: "musical instruments were not used. The pipe, tabret, and harp here associate so intimately with the sensual heathen cults, as well as with the wild revelries and shameless performances of the degenerate theater and circus, it is easy to understand the prejudices against their use in the worship." (Augustine 354 A.D., describing the singing at Alexandria under Athanasius)

Chrysostom: "David formerly sang songs, also today we sing hymns. He had a lyre with lifeless strings, the church has a lyre with living strings. Our tongues are the strings of the lyre with a different tone indeed but much more in accordance with piety. Here there is no need for the cithara, or for stretched strings, or for the plectrum, or for art, or for any instrument; but, if you like, you may yourself become a cithara, mortifying the members of the flesh and making a full harmony of mind and body. For when the flesh no longer lusts against the Spirit, but has submitted to its orders and has been led at length into the best and most admirable path, then will you create a spiritual melody." (Chrysostom, 347-407, Exposition of Psalms 41, (381-398 A.D.) Source Readings in Music History, ed. O. Strunk, W. W. Norton and Co.: New York, 1950, pg. 70.)

In fact, around the same time that the Apostles were helping start the Church, the Jewish religion was undergoing a debate about continuing the use of musical instruments. Philo of Alexandria, Hellenistic–Judaic philosopher, who wrote in the early years of the Christian era, stated that he was opposed to any kind of music in worship and wanted it stopped.

Historians also agree, and the amount of evidence is overwhelming...

There can be no doubt that originally the music of the divine service was every where entirely of a vocal nature. (Emil Nauman, The History of Music, Vol. 1, p. 177)

We have no real knowledge of the exact character of the music which formed a part of the religious devotion of the first Christian congregations. It was, however, purely vocal. Instrumental music was excluded, at first, as having been used by the Romans at their depraved festivities; and everything reminding them of heathen worship could not be endured by the new religionists. (Frederic Louis Ritter, History of Music from the Christian Era to the Present Time, p. 28)

The general introduction of instrumental music can certainly not be assigned to a date earlier than the 5th and 6th centuries; yea, even Gregory the Great, who towards the end of the 6th century added greatly to the existing church music, absolutely prohibited the use of instruments. Several centuries later the introduction of the organ in sacred service gave the place to instruments as accompaniments for Christian song, and from that time to this they have been freely used with few exceptions. The first organ is believed to have been used in the Church service in the 13th century. (McClintock and Strong, Cyclopaedia of Biblical Literature, Vol 6, p. 759)

*********************************

So, I ask you again. Why didn't the first Christians use musical instruments?
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PPB
PPB

February 27th, 2006, 8:53 am #29

What is the "VERIFIABLE and CONCRETE evidence" that the 1st century church didn't use instruments?

PPB, I am curious.
Why does your church use hymnals? Why don't all the women cover their heads? Why do you use a pinch of cracker and a tiny cup of Welch's for the Lord's SUPPER? Why do you have a church building? Why does your church allow women to put up postings like your last one? Why do you sit for an hour Sunday morning singing acapella and get in your car and turn on the radio to instrumental devil-music? Why does someone get up and make announcements during the assembly?


"Why would you dismiss the first Churches started by Christ? Why would you look down your "educated" noses at them? Do you think that you are better than them? Smarter? Closer to God?"

Other posters,

Please forgive me for my following comments if you find them upsetting. They are written with a very sad and heavy heart, not an angry one. But people read things from their own perspective and may react differently. I'm just sick and tired of how Amazed (and a few others) treats people on this site. In fact, I hardly come here anymore because of the attitude of some of the new posters. They remind me of Walt and 9iron.

Amazed,

As for your questions, do I really need to answer them? It's just a ploy to try and get people off the subject matter and the facts by bringing up ridiculous issues that are not related by any stretch of the imagination. LAst time...

You know, I started addressing each of them and realized, YOU KNOW THE ANSWERS and I'm wasting my time. You know these questions are silly and unrelated to the topic at hand. You know that your questions are in full of incorrect assumptions. I'm not going to play this game with you any longer. You can look on this site yourself for the answers to such questions...I know I and others have posted responses to them before.

YOu can't handle the scriptural truth and are trying to find a way around what you want vs. what God commanded. You know it and I know it. Most importantly, God knows it. That's answer enough for me.
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

February 27th, 2006, 2:33 pm #30

Bill,

So you are saying that the Sunday Worship dictates one's destiny??? WOW!

Getting an education from the PHDuhs as your site refers to is far more enlightenigng than the tracts that we grew up reading and defending.
I am cracking up right now. Splits are everywhere. The c of C's are not bringing people in like you imagine. Look at the C of C guide and it continues to get thicker because of splits and arguments.

I am not going to bring you statistics I have not the time nor the enegry, however you can go on about the c of C following it to a "Letter" and I would bet $$$ that your Wife does not cover her Head??? If she does then you are on the path to following it to the "Letter." Do you greet with a Holy Kiss at the door? Do you cover your head? Have you shaved your wife's head? Does she were jewelry at church functions? Does she remain silent?

If you are not follwing these things to the "letter" then you condemn yourself by your own words.

I know I know the "Fruity Loops" are coming!
That's all right, CC. I won't hold it against you because you were neither willing nor able to produce statistics to back your claim that the c of C is shrinking. I didn't think you would or could, and neither did the rest of the discerning readers here. Just smoke and mirrors, we all knew. You may not realize it, friend, but you and others of like mind who stay in the c of C but whose hearts really sympathize with and embrace the heresies of the Change Movement are playing crucial roles that are leading up to the end times. And so are the folks who remain in the c of C but who remain faithful to the tenets of the NT.

I direct you to the post entitled "On Second Thought..."
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