Link: Copy link
PPB,I'm just curious. Luey, Concerned Member, etc...
Why did the original Churches NOT use instruments? Why did they consider them wrong?
Before you try and go around those two questions, remember, there is VERIFIABLE and CONCRETE evidence that the early Christians did NOT use them and found them sinful. So don't try and twist it or go around it. I dare you to answer it honestly.
Can you? Can you explain why it was still wrong for generations after Christ died? Can you explain why churches, that had met and studied WITH the Apostles, were against instruments during their assembly?
Would you agree that the Apostles would have the most knowledge of how the assembly was to act? They were speaking for Christ and God, where they not?
Also, remember Paul was Jewish. Why did he not allow these first churches to use instruments if he had used them in his Jewish faith (which, some of you have inaccurate info about Judaism and instrumental music)?
And if you don't care what the first Churches did or did not do, why? Why would you dismiss the first Churches started by Christ? Why would you look down your "educated" noses at them? Do you think that you are better than them? Smarter? Closer to God?
If CC has decided to stay and worship in the church of Christ, then he doesn't try to push instruments on his congregation. He should neither advocate them nor try to push them on church of Christ-oriented web sites like this one. If he can only justify their absence in his church by "tradition," then the Bible degree that he obtained has not served him well in that regard. He hasn't a leg to stand on to discuss the subject further, for he will not accept what the NT says about vocal music. He only argues from personal opinion, not from biblical fact. But discerning church of Christ members who don't even hold a Bible degree know better.Bill,
I have said it over and over again...so here goes. The Church of Christ is changing...I am not going anywhere. I enjoy leading singing and singing acapella. However, I will not Lobby for arguments that are ludicrous and made up. The Thousands of people I worship with no longer are "hung up" on the issue either. Your # is dwindling. It is flat out a preference that we worship acapella or not. I have read the Boswell-Hardeman debates for years. It is once a gain an argument that is quickly sinking...taking on water if you will.
As I have said to Donnie and now I will say it to you. I will stay right in the Church of Christ and enjoy acapella singing, however I will not condemn a soul to hell for the use of instruments in their worship to do so is playing God and I refuse to sit on that seat.
If Heaven is determined by what one does for an Hour or two on Sunday then it is sad glimpse of attaining Heaven (sounds like Works or working one's way into Heaven.) I see Heaven as very attainable, a road not filled with Land Mines of assumptions about what was done 2,000 years ago.
To assume that Paul was a hater of music when in fact it was part of their Worship rituals with the Old Covenant is outrageous. Hummmm...Maybe he was trying to preach grace and how to grow the church rather than fill it with "I wonder if" theology. We have unfortunately developed a Checklist of what must have been said and PPB coming in and stating that it was NEVER used and WRONG is an outright fallacy. It is just regurgitated from what she has always been told...I know because I used to be tough on this crime of instrument usage as well.
So sad...by the way you can take this anyway you want, but there are more things to be concerned with than instruments...like fighting Satan! Please aim your arrows at him rather than turning to the right and left and shooting them at others and me that are fighting Satan as well.
I dont need for Concerned Christian to provide any statistical evidence to back his claim that the church of Christ is shrinking, that people are leaving it for the denominations or other faiths that have become sucked into the heresies of the Change Movement. I take CCs word completely. I wouldnt be surprised if, one day in the near future, CC posted a message that said in effect, All who ever belonged to the church of Christ, including yours truly, have finally left it for greener pastures, leaving David Rhoades, Ken Sublett, Donnie Cruz, PPB, Jimmy Wren, and Dr. Bill Crump as the sole remnants of that faith on this earth.Growing up in the church of Christ, I never really questioned anything. But as an adult, I found that I have a mind to think and can voice my opinion.
It seems to me that the argument against instrumental music mainly comes from the doctrine referred as "the Law of Silence" Where the bible is silent, we also should be silent. However, what I have seen is that people of this belief regarding instrumental music are far but silent on the subject.
Please use the law of silence to tell me what is wrong with this conclusion:
First off, I am sure no one on this board will dispute that instruments were use in the Old Testament. The Psalms are full of accounts where David (God's favorite) talks of the use of instruments.
In Revelations, there are accounts from John of instruments in Heaven..
Revelations 5:8 the 24 elders had harps
Revelations 14:2 The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps
Revelations 15 2-3 They held harps given them by God and sang the song of Moses the servant of God and the song of the Lamb.
Now lets go to
Malachi 3:6 "I the LORD do not change.
James 1:17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows
and finally the Lord's prayer:
Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come,
Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven
If instruments were used in the Old Testament and in Heaven, and God does not change. And Jesus said, thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven. If the angels had harps, given to them by God, wouldn't this be his will?
Then what is the Big Argument all about????
Bill,If CC has decided to stay and worship in the church of Christ, then he doesn't try to push instruments on his congregation. He should neither advocate them nor try to push them on church of Christ-oriented web sites like this one. If he can only justify their absence in his church by "tradition," then the Bible degree that he obtained has not served him well in that regard. He hasn't a leg to stand on to discuss the subject further, for he will not accept what the NT says about vocal music. He only argues from personal opinion, not from biblical fact. But discerning church of Christ members who don't even hold a Bible degree know better.
I don't recall ever condemning anyone to hell on this web site or anywhere else because of their "preference" for instruments over the NT's specification to use vocal music. I have neither the authority nor the desire to do so.
CC has claimed on several occasions that the traditional c of C is dwindling. If this is not merely his wishful thinking, I now ask CC to provide statistical evidence with reliable references to this claim. I will not accept references one or two local congregations that may be losing a few members. I want references to statistical reports that have studied several thousand churches of Christ across the USA that provide undeniable evidence of such shrinkage.
But even if the c of C is shrinking, it only proves that folks are jumping the ship of Truth and going to churches that provide more popular entertainment. Why else would they leave a faith that follows the NT to the letter for a faith that provides them with entertainment?
Thank you Concerned Christian for that incredible comeback!!!!PPB,
Thank you for the dare Okayyyy...here goes.
First of all there is no evidence that the early church consider them "wrong" or sinful. This is a gross exaggeration made by fundamentalists that were breaking away from the Catholic religion in the 1800's (hence our traditional arguments).
The Church of Christ and it's "pioneers" have long argued that psalmos is "plucking" something other than a harp. Yet you read educated scholars and I do mean educated including Church of Christ Scholars (not all) and they agree that this is indicating the Psalms (yes the Dreaded Old Testament reference again). In fact the "Melody in the hearts" is something that historians argue they were to be silent and sing only to themselves. That is ridiculous as saying that the early church considered Instruments wrong. Every little thing (function) was not recorded...perhaps this Christian Walk is not to be too tricky?
I worship in an acapella church, however I have given up this concern or argument a long time ago and many C of C'ers have as well. It is fine if you do not like it it is just a fact. I do not teach Bible classes or preach sermons about the usage of instruments. However when someone challenges why we do not I can only simply say, "it is the choice of our Tradition".
Please educate yourself in something other than the C of C hermeneutic and look outside the box and see the freedom in Christ rather than the bondage that so easily entangles you.
Please give YOUR "verifiable" evidence before you come back with a tract from your foyer.
Other posters,What is the "VERIFIABLE and CONCRETE evidence" that the 1st century church didn't use instruments?
PPB, I am curious.
Why does your church use hymnals? Why don't all the women cover their heads? Why do you use a pinch of cracker and a tiny cup of Welch's for the Lord's SUPPER? Why do you have a church building? Why does your church allow women to put up postings like your last one? Why do you sit for an hour Sunday morning singing acapella and get in your car and turn on the radio to instrumental devil-music? Why does someone get up and make announcements during the assembly?
"Why would you dismiss the first Churches started by Christ? Why would you look down your "educated" noses at them? Do you think that you are better than them? Smarter? Closer to God?"
That's all right, CC. I won't hold it against you because you were neither willing nor able to produce statistics to back your claim that the c of C is shrinking. I didn't think you would or could, and neither did the rest of the discerning readers here. Just smoke and mirrors, we all knew. You may not realize it, friend, but you and others of like mind who stay in the c of C but whose hearts really sympathize with and embrace the heresies of the Change Movement are playing crucial roles that are leading up to the end times. And so are the folks who remain in the c of C but who remain faithful to the tenets of the NT.Bill,
So you are saying that the Sunday Worship dictates one's destiny??? WOW!
Getting an education from the PHDuhs as your site refers to is far more enlightenigng than the tracts that we grew up reading and defending.
I am cracking up right now. Splits are everywhere. The c of C's are not bringing people in like you imagine. Look at the C of C guide and it continues to get thicker because of splits and arguments.
I am not going to bring you statistics I have not the time nor the enegry, however you can go on about the c of C following it to a "Letter" and I would bet $$$ that your Wife does not cover her Head??? If she does then you are on the path to following it to the "Letter." Do you greet with a Holy Kiss at the door? Do you cover your head? Have you shaved your wife's head? Does she were jewelry at church functions? Does she remain silent?
If you are not follwing these things to the "letter" then you condemn yourself by your own words.
I know I know the "Fruity Loops" are coming!